I was thinking about this during the "Everyone hates Blackguitarists" thread. Blackguitaristz brought up the point that in the music from the 70's and 80's, black kids loved material that happened to have "TONS of guitar in it".


It IS interesting... Can you imagine "Voyage To Atlantis" without Ernie Isley's beautiful guitar--or, for that matter, "Who's That Lady", or the Isley's version of "Summer Breeze", ...without guitar solos?

Can you imagine Slave's "Slide" without Marc "Drac" Hicks' six string explosion? or
Prince's "Let's Go Crazy", "Purple Rain", or The Time's "777-9311" without Jesse's axe?
or how about Earth Wind and Fire's "Shining Star" without Johnny Graham's breakout?

...and If you went to a P-Funk concert and didn't hear "Maggot Brain", something was very wrong, indeed!

These were all staples of R&B Radio and on everyone's turtables at home....and yet the general perception is that Black folks hate that "electric guitar stuff"...we even laughed about it on the Dave Chapelle skit...


What do y'all think?




...

There really exist only one solo and that is Machine Gun

Honestly, Black guitarists don't get much love though.

paligap said:

(clears throat)...ahem...Friday night...


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

theAudience said:

I take it they didn't do it at the show, huh?


...

It's record companies that are to blame. Think about it, how many NEW blues stars are there?! There aren't any, sure if you're a fan you'll find out but the industry is geared towards godawful R&B, which is no more than a euphemism for black music. What's even more disturbing is the fact you get a lot of black musicians with a lot of power who own record labels who just peddle 70's stereotypes of black people, which if came from a white person would be deemed racist. There is a lot of love for the black guitarist from people who love the guitar. It's the industry that's to blame.
[Edited 9/12/05 20:00pm]

yeah, it's rare to hear one in top 40 RnB, that's why i don't listen to that shit and when did guitar solos become ostracized by the black community? There was a time a black man with a guitar in his hand was a big deal.

Cool pics.

JesseDezz said:

Co-sign.

Sin even made George...



...a lefty.



The KTLA Morning News has been using cuts from...



...BB King's 80 (duets with other artists) as bumpers this morning.


Buddy Guy is doing the duets thing on his new release Bring 'Em In available at the end of the month.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

WildheartXXX said:

That is so freakin' 80s; blamin' the big bad corporate massahs.

Wake up; if the stuff would sell every label would get behind the trend.

My guess why Blackrock ain't buzzin' is cuz it can't pack a club and this has a lot to do with preconceptions from black people. The expectation is for a black group to feature a lead singer, be a steppin' vocal group or as a rapper with dancer troupe and a fakeass band. Black folks ain't hearin' no rock guitar shit and will clear the room in a mutha-funkin' minute.

Maybe it's different in your town, but LA muggs ain't into all that loud-ass "white-boy" thang. I'm speakin' from experience; the bands I check play to a 60% non-black audience when they make their rounds and this shit has been goin'on since Jimi got beamed over from the Brits (sad & pathetic y'all channelled' our own shyt right back up our American asses).

BTW there are quite a few young black blues guitarists. You have to be a little bit more tuned in to the blues scene cuz MTV-type mass media don't feature any of 'em (Oh is that what you mean by "the record companies"?).

Without black guitarists, there would be no popular music. Rock, funk, jazz, blues, you name it and it seems to be the 7 steps to Muddy Waters/Robert Johnson.

All of the greats acknowledge this when they list influences. David Ryan Harris is an example of a great African American artist that has yet to break but it's not from his lack of ability. The music industry is broken and corupt by corporations, go buy the stuff and support the artists so they can keep making music.

PFunkjazz said:

I'm from L.A. and have played all of the major clubs out here several times. My band was HEAVILY featured in the film about the Black Rock Coalition. My band opened for Bootsy when he was out here at The House Of Blues. I went into my experience with black folks response to me playing rock in depth on my last post on my response to your post on the "Everybody Hates Blackguitarists?" thread. That said, I KNOW first hand, every since I started gigging at Gazzarri's on Sunset when I was 18 years old that most of the audiences have always been white. BUT, that doesn't have anything to do with black folks digging guitar. That has more to do with that many black folks don't go to clubs in Hollywood or the Valley to see live bands in the first place. So they won't know who or for that matter, what is playing there anyways.

Paligap, the cat that wrote this very thread, more can testify about MY and The Audience's rock lead guitar playing. As well as SPYZFAN. Both are BROTHERS who has SERIOUS knowledge and tastes regarding all music. If Ms. Legs were here, (coughs) who's a sista, she'll do the same. ProdigalFan, samething. I can go on and on.

Preach B...You've hit the nail on the head. Hell, Starpoint's "Object Of My Desire" had a quick rock solo on it (lol). Lenny Kravitz even said it on that Band Of Gypsies docu: "Sometimes R&B radio will think that Black people don't even know what a guitar is."

...and by the way, where is Hot Legs? (I saw the thread)..Is she now Madame??? I miss her.

blackguitaristz said:

Ok I'll buy that, but I'm also coming from the purview of intimate gatherings where I'm cranking some choice guitar cuts out of my collection get comments of derision and disdain. Silly question, but I know you're aware the chief distinction between Funkadelic and Parliament is precisely because of the guitar mix being up front, donchathink?

Sure there are exceptions, but in a general sense black people do not like loud LEAD guitar.

On a more personal note, I'm sure we've crossed paths. More likely as spectators on common ground cuz I don't really go to Gazzarri's or Viper Room unless I know who's playing. I'm more like Temple Bar, Key Club and Zanzibar. However, hit me with the name of your band(s) and I'll be sure to keep an eye out for ya.

SPYZFAN1 said:

Which I think is extremely disingenuous. Lenny knows long extended electric guitar solos will clear the room of most black people.

PFunkjazz said:

It's all a matter of taste. Chocalate Coated Babies is what's being used for the band name now. My love for Alice Cooper's album "Billion Dollar Babies" was the inspiration, along with mid-70's Parliament albums. Also, check for a black female artist named Ny who I'm in the mist of writing and producing right now. Cutting her whole album. That'll be out in the near future. Ask some folks on here, they heard a few tracks already. Straight Funkadelic, Bootsy, Bowie. A grip of Hendrix, Hazel and Isley type leads. Folks are diggin' it. She already got picked up by a major publishing company off of just 3 cuts of this.

I figure some of the people in this thread would be able to answer the question in my topic- is old-school r&b more complex?
Ok,now go...

gypsyfire said:

I would have to say "Yes" to that one.

The other day I was listening to some Donny Hathaway CDs from the early 1970s, and I thought "this was popular in it's day". The albums had a variety of moods, and used a variety of instrumentation. Some of the songs mixed classical strings with gospel riffs, while some featured a jazzy beat. I couldn't help but wonder if such complex music, with such variety to it would succeed today. Somehow I doubt it. Most R&B I hear today seems formulaic and rote compared to what Donny, Stevie, Marvin, Curtis, George, Sly, tc, were doing 30 years ago

paligap said:

A bit of a massage.

The majority of black folks will accept "electric guitar stuff".
(Montgomery, Benson, Pass, Brown, Klugh, etc.)

The lines may get drawn if it's hard rock "electric guitar stuff".
That is a big generalization of course.

Most of the black folks I know will accept any "electric guitar stuff" (Jazz/Rock/Blues/Folk) that's done well.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

Stevie's 70's stuff had tons of guitar, too -- "Maybe Your Baby" being the obvious one.

Hey, Prince was a seminal guitar figure for '80's babies. Believe me.

theAudience said:

That guitar list reeks of smooth jazz and you know it!
Hey Just woke up and watched Tonight Show. Tracy Chapman was on. She has a new cd and will tour. LA date at The Roxy 10/11.
[Edited 9/14/05 1:06am]

How about the music of Defunkt?

I thought it was common knowledge that rock came from blues and that black people created rock and roll and innovated guitar, part of the problem is not enough black kids know their history, and they see rock as "white" music. So that makes it easy for a record company to market a stereotypical image to them, a lot of kids (not just black) look at B.E.T which is owned by Viacom, and think that the images they see are what they are supposed to be. I knew a white girl once that looked at a CD I was listening to and made a weird face and said " what is this " I think it was some band, can't remember a lot of guitars were in it. she said " don't you have that new Mary J ?" the thing is I didn't live up to the stereotype of what I should be. So here we have a white girl trying to subtly imply what she thinks a black person should listen to from what she saw on television.


Until we better learn our history and culture, many people will feed into stereotypes and some may become whatever we are told we should be, gangsters, thugs, pimps, ho's, whatever you are supposed to be at the time.


sorry I couldn't honestly answer a question like this without going there

ThreadBare said:

Which is when I really started noticing black folks don't like lead electric guitar. I've heard quite a few disparaging remarks about the Jeff Beck, Mike Sembello or Ray Parker guitar parts that show up on Stevie's albums.

Ha this thread reminds me of a Funkadelic encounter with one of my relatives. I had a "crazy uncle"; he was reborn and an alcoholic. He had no kids and he used to be real cool. We used to spend Saturday with him and sleep over, but we had to go to church with him and Auntie on Sundays.

Auntie was a BBW and uncle was thin as a rail. She sang as a soloist in the church choir and was super-ultra religious. One Saturday, they had taken my big brother, baby sister and I to Disneyland. We were out late and managed to oversleep and so ditched church. My big bro was up and browsing Uncle's old records. I found Funkadelic's FREE YOUR MIND. Now both of us were real curious about this totally naked woman on the cover..YOWZAH!. He' 15 and I'm 12. We had Funkadelic records but our mother had confiscated the COSMIC SLOP cover (cuz of all the oozing juices in Bell's x-rated cartoon). We just had the record and the sleeve. Two horndogs little boys and we were real curious about this naked woman on the cover (yea I said that already).

My uncle was pretty much snoozing in his chair and my brother was bold enough to violate the Sunday edict. He started off playing the record real low, so not to disturb uncle. I wanted to hear what they were saying. I heard the words "the kingdom of heaven". So, we agreed it was ok cuz it was gospel, so we turned it up.

"Fri Night Aug 14" started up and shit hit the fan. The old man woke up and jumped out of his chair.

"What the hell!" he yelled. Auntie came out the kitchen; a look of horror on her face.

We sat in the middle of the living room floor where we had dug out all the old LPs. Uncle lunged past us, almost crashing into the wood cabinet stereo. His unsteady hands slid across the record; scratching it badly.

"In this house, we don't play this devil music on the Lord's day!", he scolded. Auntie swooped by and snatched the FYM album cover out of my brother's hands. We were totally dumbfounded; couldn't say a thing. We didn't break anything. Just made a mess, but nothing got stained or broken. Hey we were really good kids and immediately started to clean up.

Still, Auntie got on the phone and called my mother to come get us immediately. After this we didn't have any more sleepovers and only visited on Satuurdays with our parents.

Years later I sat up over my uncle's house drinking with him. He had divorced and remarried a much less oppressive woman. He let on that the reforms were her idea, not his. He was abiding by her rules of no secular music on the Sabbath, but refused to trash his records; especially not his FUNKADELIC records.

PFunkjazz said:

Great story!!!


...

PFunkjazz said:

...Ya little blasphemin' heathens!


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431
[Edited 9/14/05 11:44am]

...

Do you think maybe it has to do with how it's presented? When I think of the best instances, Like "Voyage to Atlantis" for example, the guitar is there to compliment a great song, it's not just a case of "Hey, look at me, I'm playing Rock guitar!" ....



...

paligap said:

Look to the other cuts on that classic album. Granted, "VTA" is a staple of "Quiet Storm", but my vibe lies strongly with "The Pride", "Climbin' Up The Ladder", "Livin' In The Life", Ernie def rockin' out! I'm like "Yea niggah! Play dat fuckin' gitar!!!"

Jazz..that's a GREAT story. Aud beat me to it woth the "Aunt Esther" picture because that's exactly who I had in mind while reading it (lol).




.....speaking of guitar solos, did anyone pick up Jimi's "Live At Woodstock" - the 2 DVD set? Incredible.