blackguitaristz said:

I was like ,

"Who could hate on a profound brotha' like Black??"



[Edited 8/30/05 14:30pm]

blackguitaristz said:

I specifically wanted you to respond. I wanted to hear your thoughts on this topic but I didn't want to exclude others who may also have had interesting input, so I did it the best way I could. You know how we do.
I just noticed how the sound and camera are always elsewhere when we are soloing or when the spotlight should be on us. The George Clinton DVD was a sickeningly strong example of how that happens. Someone posted earlier that it might be because the women were more attractive - and they are, but its not a porn flick, its Funkadelic. There really is no excuse for it. Cameramen know exactly what to shoot, even if they don't know the artists' material. I've done camerawork before and its something you look for. You try to follow the spotlight or watch for someone stepping forward or musical breakdowns - those are big clues there. It doesn't take a genius to follow the cues. There was some serious playing that failed to be captured because some cameraman had a hard-on for the background vocalists and the violinist. That shit was ridiculous. They got almost as much camera time as George. That's a
Too many times have I gone to a show and witnessed the turning down of a brotha's solo as well as having it happen to me. Its really not a cool thing to witness or experience; especially when you're feelin' it and you know you're ripping it up. I like what BG said about it being phallic, therefore there's an institutionalized resentment or resentment on some subliminal level that some may even be unaware of.
That reminds me of the Prince video where Sonny get's kicked out of the music store - I think it was "The Good Life"? I've had a few incidents in some smaller towns where I'll go in and test out an axe, only to have the salesman start trippin' like its his axe or something. I don't even like playing loud, but I've been asked to turn down when I KNOW there was no reason for it. Sometimes cats will come over and ask me what I just played or something like that, but there have been those occasions where some sales fool will trip and start asking "so, are you gonna pick that up now or what" as an attempt to pressure me to put down the guitar. Usually that happens after a few people stand around and watch you play.
The soundman & cameraman issue has been an ongoing thing that I have noticed for years, though. I just wondered if I'm the only one who has observed this. It usually doesn't happen to singers who play guitar, but God forbid you're a guitar player in a band taking a solo. I saw the lead guitarist for S.O.S. band get turned down once DURING THE OBJECT OF MY DESIRE SOLO! That's a bad ass solo! I could site lots of examples, but that Clinton DVD really made it obvious. I thing its deliberate passive agressive move on the part of the soundman/cameraman, etc. and I just thought attention should be drawn to it. BTW, most cameramen just happen to be white from my experiences. The same goes for soundmen, although it varies on occasion depending on the show and the venue.
[Edited 8/30/05 15:48pm]

BlaqueKnight said:

Man, I am giving u a STANDING OVATION right now! U hit that shit dead on the head. It is passive/agressive on their part. As beautiful as Hendrix was, meaning what he represents, it's been the scariest shit on earth to most non-black men that happens to be around brothers who play guitar. Especially rock lead oriented guitar. That shit was, is and always will be a threat. I've had cats get nervous just by the sight of me walking in a club with my guitar in it's case. I'm so glad I'm on the other side/on the side that I'm on. Cuz that shit has to be TORTURE for these jealous motherfuckers.

blackguitaristz said:

TALK!!!

Man, u get it in all forms of music - even gospel. I've been playing some gospel gigs lately with some kick-ass musicians (in fact the organist plays keys in the BT Express, Kashif's old band). Anyway, there's one cat who directs some of the choirs who's always tellin' me, "none of that rock stuff", though some of the songs contain loud, screamin' guitar solos. How ironic, then, that the following Sunday, during the service, this director motions for me to take a solo during one of the songs

What's even more tripped-out is that the preacher (who loves music) put me on the spot and had me do a little rock-type solo to "show me what you can do with that thing". He remarked later on that he thought we (the band) were doin' some Funkadelic-type stuff up there.

When it comes to guitars, a lot of cats my age and younger really don't know much about it. It's like a foreign thing to them. It amazes me when someone comes up to me and after seeing my pedals 'n stuff, says, "What are those?" This is after I've been makin' all these crazy sounds 'n stuff - it's like they're hearing, but not really listening/paying attention... They're usually the same cats who see Prince as just a little weird guy wearing heals and mascara. They don't really think of him as a guitar player...

I meant heels.

blackguitaristz said:

I've worked in Tv and movies and usually in a concert there's more than one camera. A lot of this might be the editors fault.

lilgish said:

Without a doubt, it could very well be. The editor is the one piecing the footage together. It didn't seem that they had a camera pointed at the band much because throughout the show most of the footage of the band is from a distance...yet there were lots of close ups of the girls.
Hey, I like looking at the girls just as much as the next guy, but there's a such thing as balance. I wouldn't want that company filming any of my gigs.

Blaque, I feel ya on this. I really do. It's not just in concerts -- it's in jam sessions.

I have a jam session story for you. Later, though. Bedtime.

Thanks again for this, man.

It's very true.

Some folks are frighteningly territorial.

BlaqueKnight said:

This may happen on record with PFunk, EWF, Isleys Prince or other more r&B type acts, but nothing of the sort has happened in Vernon Reid's case. I'm not sure what you encountered with Eric Gales but he was a fury in the San Diego Hendrix tribute and his ownset a few years back. I don't see a conspiracy. Though there may be a perceived need to keep things more on a r&b tip to placate a more black crowd cuz most black folks don't wanna hear no rock guitar. Vern and Eric always rock out hard, but you gonna see much more white folks checkin' them out.

You talking about camera angles and such on the DVD. Yeah I noticed Mike and Blackbyrd (who plays with his back to the audience) weren't easily seen and Lily got a lot of love. Admittedly, she is a much more compelling visual, but the mix is amped up for guitarists, even if you don't see 'em so much.
[Edited 8/31/05 6:30am]

PFunkjazz said:

Sorry dude, but I know Eric. I've seen many gigs of his and he has been turned down low before. One gig he was low the first three songs, People were pissed because it was very obvious. Of course white folks give Eric & Vernon love; I'm not taking about people in general. All of the aforementioned artists have a white fanbase to some degree or another. I'm talking about engineers & cameramen at some of these venues across the country. As for Vern, he got a bum mix treatment at a gig I caught a few years back. It got corrected, but he's not impervious to it either. I wish it wasn't the case. The opening act was louder than Living Colour and that was f*cked up. They finally pumped them up about 1/3 of the way into the set. Everything I'm posting about is from observation.

BlaqueKnight said:

Sounds like it's subjective what we think is happening, but I'm gonna pass your complaint over to Vern's guitar tech on the LC YAHOO group to see what he says. That's his freakin' job ya know.


I'll be back.

Thanks a lot for for creating such a great thread.

While I personally have experienced the type of discrimanation mentioned through out the thread, I fully understand where you are comming from. I have however encountered a lot of ignorance and other "funky" attitudes whenever the topic of "black rock guitarist"as a whole comes up. It's as though we're part of some sort of alternate reality. I'm always amazed at the lack of recognition & exposure we receive in the guitar/music press in general.

One of the greatest guitarist I was fortunate enough to see perform live was the late Gordon Gaines. Note for note he's one of the best guitarist I've heard period! Absolutely terrifying, though few folks seem to have ever heard of him outside of the down town NY/local music scene.

Yet his obituary turns up in a issue of "Guitar For The Practicing Musician".

Go figure.....

-kstrat-
[Edited 8/31/05 14:47pm]

Top 5 List of how you know you're a "Black Guitar Player"..

5) When you walk into a gig, the soundman or manager of the club will ask you "So what band are you the roadie for?".

4) When people ask you: "You play rock?..You possibly can't be in a rock band..You're black!!"

3) When you show up at an audtion for a rock band and the guy who placed the ad says to you; "Funny..you didn't sound black over the phone".

2) When you walk in the music store and the employee says, "We have bass guitars on sale" or "We have some new Pearl drums in the back". (Nothing against my fellow drummers and bassists.)


and the number one pick...

1) You've been playing some hardcore, rock, blues, jazz fusion and someone yells out..."PLAY SOME HENDRIX!!!!!:.

kstrat said:

I have definately heard of Mr. Gordan Gaines. Yeah, he was a great guitarist, no doubt. I ran a thread on here a long time ago titled "The Best Black Guitarist Since Hendrix". Man, it got well over 100 posts. All kinda cats were mentioned. Folks showed a lot of love on that thread. Very passionate about their posts too.

Howdy B.G., I chimed in on that thread a while back...losts of interesting post there!

Gordon definately was a favorite of mine. Outside of some session work, there's very little out there. Though I understand Gordon recorded a lot of his own material though none of it was ever offically released! Gordon was even endorsed Yamaha guitars for a while. My only regret is that I didn't make the trip to his gigs more often, He usually was the last to perform on friday's or monday nights at the Bitter End.

blackguitaristz said:

SPYZFAN1 said:

Great points and your #1 is dead on! Can't tell ya how MANY times someone has yelled that shit up at me! Even walking down the street, I STILL get that shit.

Here's the response I got from Dennis Diamond (Vernon Reid's guitar tech)

I merely posted BG's initial post and asked his opinions on the subject. I also gave the link to this thread, so he knows the complete context of things).

Actually, none of that post or that thread really applies to me or
any guitar technician, for that matter.
My "freaking job", as you put it, it setup and maintenence of
Vernon's guitars, amplifiers and effects. As far as his sound is
concerned, as I am also a guitarist (not all techs play), we bounce
ideas off each other on making the sound comfortable ON STAGE. The
responsibility of the mix in the house falls on the FOH (front of
house) engineer. Having said that, we are extremely fortunate to
have Andy Stackpole as our FOH for almost four years now. In
addition to working with Tackhead and Mos Def, he spent nine years
as FOH for Bad Brains (if you've EVER seen them, you KNOW the guitar
ain't missing in the mix).
I've only worked as a tech for one band for a long time, so I don't
really know how other crews operate.
As far as the thing with a predjudice of black rock guitarists;
there very well could be... but, you know, maybe it's something like
that that makes us work harder to be better musicians (and I think
some are because of this.).
I don't really get too deep in that because this business is
difficult enough without trying to establish an even playing field;
you'll chase your tail doing that!
The thing with being ignored during solos I think is the fault of:
1) The FOH's negligence to detail
2) Personal beef or dissatisfaction with the gig (seen that once
during a Rush tour - barely any guitar in the mix, and they're a
trio!)
I also recently heard a monitor mix of an artist (no names, please)
that pissed off their FOH. It was a mix of the artist's actual voice
(meaning there was no Auto Tune; the "magic bullet" for some (most?)
of today's artists). You could hear the crowd going bananas in the
backgroud (they were getting the doctored voice) and this grossly,
out of pitch voice which would make that William Hung guy tolerable
on top. And this is someone who has sold over 50 MILLION records!
3) For videos and television - DEFINITELY the editor's (and
Director's) fault! Even if it's live; they have multi-cameras and
multi monitors (usually), and most importantly, EARS! No excuse for
that!

In short; we don't consciously think about it at game time; we just
plug in, turn shit up, and GO!!!

Lay-da!

BTW; Nothing wrong with playing bass and drums, but if you're a
brother, and play want to play rock (or any style, for that matter)
guitar, then don't screw around... PLAY IT and BELIEVE IT!!!

PFunkjazz said:

Cool to get a response from someone who has experience as a tech. All of them aren't like this, but, of course, a LOT of them are.

I've actually seen this happen to a lot of guitarists white, black, whatever. I was watching this Duran Duran concert and every time there was a guitar solo, they'd cut the the singer dancing or something stupid like that. I would love to think the music world was beyond that kind of bullshit but apparently not.

BlaqueKnight said:

I can dig it to the 9th degree!

guitarslinger44 said:

Yeah, what a drag.

kstrat said:

yep.

Honestly, I can't say that i've noticed this specifically with black guitarists (myself included).
Maybe it's because, personally, I always try and establish a rapport with the FOH mixer-person prior to showtime whenvever possible.
And not from the standpoint of, "Hey look here, you better have my guitar hot in the mix!", but taking a human to human approach initially.
Eventually the conversation will evolve into the band mix in general and then where my solos might be in the set.

I have noticed it at times with guitarists in general. Time for the guitar solo and no volume.
Turn at look at the FOH mixer and he's got some honey cornered not even paying attention.

It's Only Rock and Roll


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...dID=182431

funkpill said:

Thanx, pill. Cuz I know that shit is sincere!

theAudience said:

Cool.

But is this truly a racial conspiracy, or just coincidence ?

Look , some of the greatesrt guitar players ever were Black : BB King, Buddy Guy, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Ike turner, Otis Rush, Johnny Guitar Watson, Curtis Mayfield, Cornell Dupree, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Eddie Hazel, Muddy Waters, Hubert Sumlin, Robert Cray, Albert Cillins, Albert King, Freddy King, Clarence Gatemouth Brown (RIP ), Vernon Reid, Slash, Jimi... the list goes on and on ...

The sad truth is, these brilliant musicians probably get more respect, recognition, and admiration from whites (and Asians, like the Japanese who are fanatical about American culture ) than they do from Blacks today. Most Blacks in music today , it's all about "beatz", and the idea of mastering your instrument, the way a Ray Charles, a Miles Davis, or a Jimi Hendrix did, is alien concept . And an even sadder reality is that the black audience, in general, in their quest for the newest sounds, are very quick to discard what they consider to be "old". And to them, the guitar is "Old"

jjhunsecker said:

So true black people want no part of black rock guitar.
We are the freaks and oddities. We are not the norm.