First off, this is not designed to be a knee-jerk reaction/ defensive to the point of ignorant post. I believe your post has some credibility; you raise decent points and issues. However, I believe I can at least provide some scope on some of them. I’m not arguing that hip-hop is perfect, far from it; it has many flaws that annoy me.

I don’t think comparing MC’s and musicians is quite the right thing to do. These debates for me often miss the true talented aspects of making music that each brings to the field. Such trivial debates litter history itself; for example, the style of popular musician you cite was considered and probably still is in some circles to be the poor cousin of classical music in the classical vs popular debates of the mid 20th century. Until most notably Cole Porter and others after highlighted to the establishment how complex and beautiful popular music could be.

Now you are right, the typical MC cannot play an instrument, cannot read music or understand musical theory. Nevertheless, Hip-Hop/ rap does demand “skills”:

Firstly, it may be talking/phrasing to you but to me, when I hear my favourite MC’s, and no they aren’t usually on MTV, they are balancing multi-syllable rhymes into a form that flows with the beat, with usually impeccable rhythm and breath control.

For example, there are different techniques of breath control, as shown by Gift of Gab or if you want a more mainstream example Twista.

In relation what one can lyrically bring to the table in the midst of the having to do the above is thus given greater weight in terms of ‘skill’.

For example, there is no way you or any regular Joe could of spit Nas’ ILLMATIC. I repeat no damn way. Yes, you may be able to listen, memorise and recite the lyrics, but just like when you memorise a Prince song all the hard work was already done for you.

Instrumentation: Your point on instrumentation is largely correct. Hip-Hop lacks instrumentation due to it reliance on sampling. Now we all have different opinions on sampling, some positive and negative. I read on here a few days ago that someone could not tell the difference between good old Mr West and P Diddy in terms of sampling. And then proceeded to nearly cry laughing. Poor soul.

Yet, sampling itself can be an art. I will agree that sampling has nearly died as an art form in mainstream hip-hop, and I yearn for the return of sampling in the vein of the bomb squad. But just as Prince made instruments fight it out on 1999, you can hear great layering of samples on PE’s two most celebrated records, or just brilliant uses on De La Souls’ Three foot…

However, in my opinion while I love great beats I’m usually more interested in what the MC has to say:


That brings me to why I believe hip-hop can be an art. For me this revolves around two reasons, which are intertwined, one is technical and the other is socio-political you could say:

Again, I think we must return to the dreaded MC. No the MC cannot sing, he can’t raise hairs on the back of your neck like Sam Cook did on ‘A change is going to come’. However, he is not merely the harbinger of raps about nothing:

The MC’s platform gives him greater freedom to be analytic, descriptive and emotive. And from this comes hiphop’s true greatness: the ability to go beyond party and love songs (I’m not against such things by the way) and carry on a tradition of music that looks to critique the reality it is confronted with. Added to the greater freedom I stated above, is also the mediums ability to translate to its audiences. This why hip-hop for me can be a truly powerful art. For example this is what some of my favourite hip-hop records do for me:

Nas’ Illmatic takes you into the streets like no news camera could ever take you.

Common’s resurrection highlighted inner city Chicago and traps of ‘having no time for a wife’.

Tupac’s Me Against the World takes you into self-introspection, an often-nihilistic landscape where rays of hope are few and far between, and where you often reach the point where you are both repulsed and attracted by the personality coming through the stereo.

Public Enemy’s records made you start looking at the world in far different light. Addressing everything from the draft to the impact of TV on young minds.

Blackstar conceptualised the city as an organism that was living and breathing, asked for great knowledge of self, and directly referenced Toni Morrison in describing the mentality of youths.


Yes hiphop today is littered with more stupidities than greatness, good records are like needle in haystacks, and the genre has never fully or even half gone any way to fully realising its potential. And there is a strong argument that many of it’s strength, that stem from it being the last voice for the black man that turned into one of the last voices for the youth have been turned on itself. The ‘who, what, where when and how’s’ are itself another argument for another time. And I’m sure no doubt that decent counter argument will follow my post. Demoting and denouncing my example, but I dare think anyone could destroy my argument. That Hip-hop does demand certain ‘skills’ and does reach places other musical genres today rarely go.

I just wrote this because every time I swing by this board I hear an anti hip-hop rhetoric that I don’t think is fully justified. I take it personally because if it weren’t hiphop I would never have encountered some of my favourite artists such as: Prince, Stevie Wonder, Jimi Hendrix, John Coltrane, Fela and Femi Kuti etc. I may never of picked up to read Baldwin, Morrison, Ellison or discovered the poetry of Langston Hughes if it weren’t for hip-hop. Which in turn inspired my great love of reading. And who knows what my outlook on politics, sociology and philosophy (the things that now make up my career) would have happened to be without the ethos of challenging what is established that hip-hop amonsgt other things gave to me.


Peace and love.
[Edited 8/28/05 6:12am]

Great post and u are totally right. I am not going to say I know alot about Rap because I dont so I wouldnt "put down" the whole genre. But like alot of Music today, it is littered with crap. For every COMMON there is a Young Jeezy, Young Buck, Tony Yayo etc.... And i think that there is where people equate Rap music. But honestly that is the fault of MTV, RADIO, and quite honestly the youth that is buying alot of this crap. Once RAP became all about the "gold and Platnum" and not about what it came from, thats when it lost. But the same can be said of all music today. I mean look at Country music, to me when U say Country music I think Willie or Patsy Cline, not Faith Hill and Shania. Dont get me wrong i dont know anything about Country either but I think the most ignornant person can tell u that difference. I think the problem is partly caused by people equating Visuals and Music, also by thinking if u are over a certain age you arent relevant. Also to dismiss something because of a few things that happen. I mean just today Suge Knight got shot, now im sure there will be another RAP war going on, but this again is the fault of Media and MTV, they report this shit 24/7 so what else can people believe. Though I am not into RAP, i do recognize the Genius of COMMON and NAS and MOS DEF and TALIB and from my day and still Public Enemy, and a list of others. I myself am more into Musicians and Singer songwriters, but i do consider these others "artists". I dont really lump music into categories when i listen to it, if its something good i give it a listen, i dont dismiss it because its rap or country or whatever, I look at Music as a BIG picture frame and there are many ways to paint it, and then after you erase the crap stuff, u are left with a brilliant piece of art.

MrVortex, I understand what you are saying to a degree..but #1 the rappers you cited in your reply are not the MTV rappers and thats what I SPECIFICALLY quoted to be the sort of rappers that I was talking about. Common,Nas, Blackstar and all those others you quoted are not considered to be MAINSTREAM rappers. Nas' last CD sealed his coffin and to be honest, if he dont do something like the embarassing "Ooochie Wallie", he will be written off soon by the "MTV" crowd.

I may be wrong or "out of it" musically but I cannot see how rappers like Young Jeezie, Young Buck, G Unit, 50 Cent, Mike Jones, TI and the like can be compared to musicians as far as qualitative content. You said that it takes breathing control, etc for them to rap like they do HOWEVER, its plenty of people that are CAPABLE singers AND CAPABLE musicians. It just seems to take such little talent to be a rapper than it does to pick up an instrument, master it and then meneuver from there..

LoveAlive said:

I think that is a Valid point too, but If we are going to let MTV dictate what is MUSIC and the BEST then every from of music is over. I think the main point of this whole thing is what MTV pushes is the side of RAP that has no "point", its a bunch of "wannabes" talking about their chains and girls and how much their albums sold, and I agree that "side" of rap needs to go, before thats all thats left.
But the same can be said of every from of music that catches on BIG TIME. I mean lets look at Rock Bands in 80's, it all started with Def Leppard, Jovi and Crue, and before U knew it there was all this crap like Winger and Warrant and Steelheart and Slaughter etc... Or in the 90's when Pearl Jam and Nirvana started a wave then before u knew it everyone was from seattle and had a flannel shirt and ripped jeans and sang of suicide and how much they hated the establishment while they were signed to an establishment. And of course MTV dictated all of this, from that it went to Radio and basically thats where all the problems lie. Im not going to say that 100% of what is out there today is shit but its alot closer to 100% then every before. The reasons are the people running it all are corporations set on making $$$ at any cost, they could care less how poetic NAS can be. And they basically translates into what the "younger" generation buys, there arent many "younger" kids today that have the "Minds" to search for the true artists.
[Edited 8/28/05 13:13pm]

lastdecember said:

I like KRS One's take on hip-hop..."You could be a mack, a pimp, hustler or player...But make sure live you is a dope rhyme sayer.." I think saying that "positive" MC's are the only artists that gives legitamacy to the artform of hip-hop is missing the point...Ice T's "6 In The Morning.." was an iconic moment in hip-hop because it was the first time a West Coast artist gave a street testimony on what was going on...Dre's Chronic, Snoop's Doggystyle and Mobb Deep's The Infamous are violent and mysogonistic, but are three of the best produced and brilliant statements you will find in the early '90s...50 Cent's Get Rich Or Die Trying was another release that was a good effort in its own genre (The production on that album was top notch; and at the time 50 represented the antithesis to the mindless radio fluff that was being released...ironically, 50 has become what he was going against: Ja Rule)...The problem is not that the Young Jeezy's and Tony Yayo's of the world represent negative sterotypes and are "gangsta" rappers...the problem is that they are at best mediocre MC's...