Wrong! Yes, I do love Prince the most when he was into the drum machines and synthesizers. My love for Rick's music is the opposite of Prince's. I love his music the most when he had the live band sound with the punk funk horns. When Rick switched over to the synthesizers and drum machines, I started bitching about his music too. See, I told you they both had a style of their own.....and ironically, in the late 1980s, it's like they traded places.

Vainandy said: "Other than a hit single here and there or a particular track here and there, such as "Kiss", "Adore", or "Get Off", the rest of the world pretty much forgot about Prince also except for his hardcore fans. Prince's new "creative" direction of the late 1980s became a joke to many people. So, going by that, Prince had his good years the same as Rick....1978-1984."


Murph says:

Yo V, you made some strong ass points on your post and I basically agree with you on the crossover statement about Rick and Prince, especially the racist MTV angle (see my past post)...Yes, Prince received much of his early airplay because he was being touted as a rock based artist and Rick was too real for those cats(among other things)...BUT... I think you are going overboard by saying Prince's best years were from 1978-1984...If you are grading dude on commercial prowess than yes, you are correct...But artistically, Prince made some his best and bravest statements..I mean really, Purple Rain and 1999 was child's play compared to shit on Around The World In A Day, Parade, Sign O The Times...Not because P expanded his funk roots, but he expanded what ws going on in the pop music scene, period.... it's the era from 1985 to 1990 that Prince earned his iconic status as a music immortal on par with The Beatles, Stevie Wonder, David Bowie, Jimi Hendrix and James Brown...I can't see how you can dismiss this era...Hey, i'm not the biggest fan of say, Lovesexy, but a song like "Alphabet Street" was better than anything his peers were putting out at that time...Just my opinion...but you made some great points...
[Edited 8/18/05 22:06pm]

dag said:

those are some of my fave songs. along with gone too soon, shes out of my life, burn this disco out, keep the faith, who is it (i hate those damn hiccups tho), give into me (pretty much the whole dangerous album), oh and morphine is my JAM!!

skywalker said:

y
Good point. IMOP, Prince back then, and even now, was on a level comparable to Miles. After the classic "Kind of Blue" came out, everyone and their brother expected Miles to stick with that format and that format ALONE! Of course, he pissed the "so-called" jazz purists off w/ "Bitches Brew", incoporating electric instruments! This was the same issue with people having the heavy expectations on Prince after "Purple Rain". Hell, I admit, I was one them! Then he did a major left turn w/ "Around the World in a Day" and went even further w/ "Parade." I was sixteen at the time
and although I enjoyed listening to them, I couldn't understand why he would such a thing, especially in the fickle pop music field. I didn't understand until I started to listen to Miles' music, starting w/ "Tutu" in '86. From that point on, I studied his career extensively. Naturally, the two became close friends and recorded music together! Miles even went on to calling Prince the next "Duke Ellington." Now that's a heavy statement coming from Miles.
Personlly, I fail to understand the comparisons between Prince, MJ, and Madonna, or even between Rick J. for that matter! They all have their own directions when it comes to music. I have great respect for all four. I saw MJ in Germany back in '92. Man, he puts on a great show! Madonna puts on one as well. But, I see them as more as entertainers than I do as artists. Prince, Miles, Jimi, Marvin, and Bob Marley to me serve more as brutal artists who refuses to comply with the plastic system or to be "categorized" as any label!
Just my two cents!

vainandy said:

Thanks! My whole point is that,Rick was true to the funk.He wasn't interested in adding orchestras to his music ('Parade'),or making a "Sgt.Peppers"-type psychedelic album ('ATWIAD').It's fine that Prince wanted to branch out and try those things.Bravo for him.But folks like Rick James and George Clinton were more interested in keeping the funk fires burning,and there ain't a damn thing wrong with that.In the 80s,too many of our R&B artists were obsessed with "crossing over" and making it onto MTV.Thank goodness that Rick never went that route.He had some crossover success ('Street Songs' and the hit single "SuperFreak"),but notably,it was on his own terms.He didn't have to "water down" his funk for mass consumption.Sure,he didn't achieve the huge crossover audience that Prince got,but so what? He is a legend in the funk world.Would folks criticize James Brown for not playing as many different styles as Prince did? Hell no,and they shouldn't do the same to Rick either.
[Edited 8/19/05 5:06am]

I like both MJ and Prince. However they are both different types of arists. I think Prince is more of a real musician in that he plays many instruments and always sings live in concert, he is more interested in the music. I'm not saying MJ isn't interested in the music, it's just that he seems more interested in dancing and the videos.

I just recently bought MJ's live concert in Bucharest during the Dangerous tour on DVD. I must say I am quite disappointed with the amount of lip synching, I can understand why he does it on fast songs like Jam and is dancing very fast, however there is no excuse when he does it on slow songs such as Will You Be There and Man In The Mirror. The audience for that show looks like it must have been over 70,000, if I was near the back I would much rather prefer that the singer at least sings live. However one good thing about an MJ concert is that you know he will play his hits, you don't know what you're gonna get with Prince, I saw him on the One Night Alone tour and did not know 90% of the songs he played.

However MJ is still a great artist and all his albums from Off The Wall to Dangerous have been great, he is superior to artists like Madonna in that he writes a large portion of his own songs and also arranges and produces them. Plus his voice is just amazing and in my opinion better than Prince's.

On a side note, I think the reason MTV didn't play black artists back in the early 80's was because it was mainly a rock station. MJ didn't get any MTV airplay until he released the rock song Beat It with its guitar solo by Eddie Van Halen.

I doubt there will ever be other artists like Prince and MJ, artists who blend different types of music together, rock, pop, funk, dance, rnb, soul, artists who wear outrageous clothes, have eccentric behaviour. Can you imagine someone like Usher or Mario doing something like this without being called a sellout by the Hip Hop/rnb community? I just love how unpredictable Prince is/was.
[Edited 8/19/05 4:52am]

"Thanks! My whole point is that,Rick was true to the funk.He wasn't interested in adding orchestras to his music ('Parade'),or making a "Sgt.Peppers"-type psychedelic album ('ATWIAD').It's fine that Prince wanted to branch out and try those things.Bravo for him.But folks like Rick James and George Clinton were more interested in keeping the funk fires burning,and there ain't a damn thing wrong with that.In the 80s,too many of our R&B artists were obsessed with "crossing over" and making it onto MTV.Thank goodness that Rick never went that route.He had some crossover success ('Street Songs' and the hit single "SuperFreak"),but notably,it was on his own terms.He didn't have to "water down" his funk for mass consumption.Sure,he didn't achieve the huge crossover audience that Prince got,but so what? He is a legend in the funk world.Would folks criticize James Brown for not playing as many different styles as Prince did? Hell no,and they shouldn't do the same to Rick either."

Look, I don't think that every artist has to have the reach and the variety of styles that Prince has in order to be great. What I am saying is that because Rick and George weren't interested in branching out and growing that they limited themselves. George is what he is (the all ime master of funk) and I am satisfied with that, but George was nowhere in the mid 80's. Same with Rick. Imagine if Rick James would have pushed himself further. Imagine if he wouldn't have worried about "abandoning" his core audience. Because Prince did move his career with a sometimes reckless abandon he moved himself out of comparisons to your regular R&B/funk artists and started being put into the category of the all time greats. I think it'd be false to say Rick James never wished for that kind of success---there are quotes from him about Prince that just drip of jealousy.

Your claim is that Rick didn't have to "water down" his funk for consumption by the masses. Is that what you think "Around the World in a Day" was? To me Prince started making his music less accessable to the masses after "Purple Rain" To say that Rick was less interested in commercial success than Prince is not accurate. Rick was stuck in his pigeon hole ( and you can't paint it as this noble thing of Rick wanting to stay true to his funk roots) but really he was in a box. Also, one could make a strong argument that Prince never actually left his funk roots either. Again, Rick didn't have to expand in order to be great. However, expanding and growing as an artsit is what took Prince out of Rick's league.
[Edited 8/19/05 8:58am]

Exactly.



I'm definateley talking about commercial status. Yes, Prince expanded dramatically artisticly during these years. There's no doubt about that. I enjoy every single track on every single one of those albums from 1985 to 1989 except for a few tracks on the "Parade" album. I admit, I love to shit on that album, intentionally, because I can't stand classical music (I can't think of anything that screams "Waldo" more than classical music). I was actually ashamed of being a Prince fan that year. Other than that, yes, the albums in that period were great. However, I'm not going to lie and say that I like them better than the previous albums just because they are more artistic because I don't. My favorite is straightforward hardcore kickass funk and rock and the earlier albums definately delivered it.

In comparing Prince and Rick though, I am being very realistic when I say that both of their best years were the same run....1978 to 1984. Yes, I'm talking about commercial success because both of them were basically forgotten by the general public after these years except for Prince having an occassional hit here and there. Prince may have rose to all the artistic heights he wanted and his hardcore fans may have loved it but the general public didn't so to say that Prince continued to become an even bigger major star while Rick was totally forgetten in not true because Prince was forgotten also. Prince is still a big star but he is one of those like Diana Ross. I'm not talking about musically, I'm talking about drawing a crowd for concerts. Fans are going to pack the venues to hear the old hits but they are not going to pack them to hear a concert full of new material. If Rick were still alive, he might could pack a smaller venue because he has his own set of fans, just like Prince, but Prince had a much larger variety of fans that Rick didn't because he had no desire to crossover, which is a thing to be admired.

Once again, you took the words right out of my mouth. Where the hell is Hotlegs!? She needs to get in on this one. She would be raising hell up in here right about now.
[Edited 8/20/05 10:38am]

He's gay.

Metrosexual not gay. I hope not because I lost my chances marrying him.

They did not limit themselves. If they branched out it wasn't something they really wanted to do, the music would have been horrible and watered down like so many other R&B artists in the late 1980s that were trying to crossover. Rick and George did the best they could with what they loved....funk. Not everyone is into different types of music like Prince is.



George continued into the early 1980s and had some major hits. He had no reason to continue on into the late 1980s. Funk was dying because of all the artists trying to crossover. If he had put some real funk out during this era, it wouldn't have sold too well and I would rather have seen him retire than to water his music down like everyone else was doing to stay afloat. Even hardcore funk groups like Midnight Star and Cameo had watered their music down in the late 1980s. It was rediculous.



Rick was still around but his music was not what it used to be because the drugs were starting to affect it.




You are missing the point altogether. SOMEONE has to stay true to the funk. If EVERYONE abandons it or waters it down, it will die and it did. All these crossover artists in the late 1980s killed and buried funk.



Every artist wants success, including both Prince and Rick. Both are comparable because if they are going to have success, it is going to be on their terms. Prince loves a wider variety of music than Rick does and he went after it on his terms. Rick had a strong desire to stick with what he loved...funk, and he stuck with it. As far Rick being jealous of Prince, of course he was. Prince was one of the only ones as talented and even more talented than he was. He knew Prince had what it took to overthrow him. If I was in Rick's shoes, I would have been jealous too.




There's basically no funk on "Around The World In A Day" except for possibly "Tamborine". There was nothing to water down. Prince just went in a different direction with a different type of music altogether.



Staying true to what you want, even sacrificing a larger profit, is always an admireable thing. Prince did the same thing with "Around The World In A Day". It may not be what I or the public wanted at the time, but it is what he wanted. So actually Prince and Rick have done the same thing....doing whatever the hell they want to do.



Of course he didn't leave his funk roots. He just put out the type of funk that no one wanted to hear coming from him. Rick did the same thing in the late 1980s, he continued funk but it was not the type of funk that people wanted to hear from him either. It's like Rick sold Prince his horns and Prince sold Rick his synthesizers and drum machines.




Rick was very much in the same league as Prince. If you talking about what the pop world thinks, Rick had no desire to conquer it so he could have cared less what they thought.

Vainandy--

Is Rick James in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? He is not and that is a very compelling point to prove what I have been arguing all along-- Rick James is not thought of as being in the same league as PRince. I know you couldn't care less that Rick is not in the Hall of Fame. However, our debate is whether people view Rick as being in the same league as Prince or not. The R&R hall of fame might not be the end all be all of greatness, but it does speak volumes about a musician's legacy. It is the pantheon of the all time greats. The people who induct artists are not typical average music fans. The people who do those inductions live and breathe music. If you look at the list you'll see that the variety of every type of music (not just "rock") and you'll see that Mr. Rick James is nowhere to be found.

Now, I have no doubts that you think Rick James is some wicked shit. However, my point is that, people don't put him in the same class as Prince. Regardless of what you think, music history DOES NOT PUT RICK JAMES IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS PRINCE. You might, hardly anyone else does. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is just one indicator of this. If people thought of Rick as being in the same league as Prince, George, Jimi, The Beatles---he'd have been inducted in his 1st year of eligability. He'd be there. The fact is Rick was a great funk artist, but not nearly as groundbreaking or genre shattering as Prince. As much as I dig Rick James, Prince spanks him in every category and comparisons between them are as worthless as comparisons between PRince and MJ.

Of course, Rick James is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He hasn't been eligible for very long. He became eligible the same time as Prince and the only reason Prince is in there this soon is because he had major crossover appeal. They have their picks and chooses and they will never induct an artist that they consider "too black".

I've had this arguement with people on the Rick James web site a few months ago. They were pissed about Percy Sledge being inducted before Rick James, which I found totally rediculous because Percy Sledge has been around since the 1960s and unlike Rick James, Percy Sledge had crossover appeal which is all the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is concerned with anyway when it comes to a black artist. The fact that they are just now inducting Percy Sledge after all these years, proves their racism.
[Edited 8/20/05 11:42am]

"Of course, Rick James is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He hasn't been eligible for very long. He became eligible the same time as Prince and the only reason Prince is in there this soon is because he had major crossover appeal. They have their picks and chooses and they will never induct an artist that they consider 'too black'. "

Bullshit. You are completely speculating as to what people's reasoning is for inducting people into the Rock n' roll hall of fame. Isaac Hayes and Curtis Mayfield have both been inducted and they were not considered "too black". They both crossed over to a same or lesser extent than Rick James. The fact is that if Rick James was "in Prince's league" (as you have claimed from the start) he'd be there with Prince. Let's, for the sake of argument, say you are right about Rick being too black (which,again, is pure speculation and not to mention weak argument). If he was on Prince's level, as you say he is, he'd have been inducted anyway. The fact is, he ain't on the same level as Prince. People don't get inducted just because of popularity. Now, the Hall of Fame isn't THE definite proof of this-it is one of many examples.

So far, you have offered up all kinds of excuses as to why Rick's Legacy isn't what Prince's is/will be. You have even gone as far as to play the race card. The fact is, nobody held Rick back but himself. He isn't in the same league as Prince. Music fans don't put Rick and Prince in the same category-and they shouldn't Prince has time and again gone beyond what Rick has done.

It seems as if your claim is that if Rick would have catered to white fans he would have had the same commercial and critical success as Prince. That's a lame excuse. All you have to do is compare Prince's body of work to Rick's. Prince towers over Rick in every aspect. There is nothing Rick did that Prince hasn't done. There is alot Prince did that Rick never could. The proof is in the music.

The bottom line is that you love you some Rick James and it taints your arguments. Most of what you have said is speculation. "Well, Rick coulda done this, if he hadn't of...." or, "If Rick wanted to alientate his black fans he coulda..." The fact is he didn't. He was a great funkrocker-that's his legacy. It's a great legacy. However,Prince is viewed as that and more.It's not because of popularity, but because of the body of work.
[Edited 8/20/05 14:33pm]

skywalker said:

BTW--- We are gonna have to agree to disagree because we are driving in circles. Again, a good conversation with you (as always). The only way I'll continue this is if you want to make it a new topic and open it up for others opinions.

No he wouldn't because they would consider him "too black" and would not induct him. And what about Percy Sledge not being inducted after all these years until now? He had a large crossover audience and they still took forever to induct him. When I heard that they had just got around to inducting him, I was shocked because I just assumed he was already in there. As I said before, they have their picks and chooses of who gets inducted. If Rick never got inducted, I could care less because he was a funk artist, not a rock artist.




You keep mentioning music critics' and different organizations' opinions on what makes an artist great. An artist doesn't have to have all that recognition to be on the same league as Prince. I'm sure there are unknown artists out there right now in a band with just as much or more talent than Prince.



Any black artist that caters to a white audience is going to sell much more records than one that doesn't. It's a larger audience. That's just a matter of simple math. I don't know what Rick would have achieved if he had crossed over because he didn't and I'm glad he didn't. He was in a rock band before he was famous though so it is very possible that he might have done well. He also loved rock music. Going by the years when Prince was only known in the R&B world, yes Rick is definately in the same league as Prince. Him being Prince's main competition is proof of that.



It seems to be the other way around to me. I have listed several of Rick's flaws such as drugs, his big mouth, and I even admitted he was jealous of Prince. You haven't listed one of Prince's flaws and you have praised him higher than Jesus and even brought out what the critics think of him.
[Edited 8/20/05 15:36pm]

Others have given their opinions. David Eye and Murph both commented. David Eye told you to ask some hardcore funk fans about Rick James and not just pop ones.....well, you are talking to one of the biggest hardcore funk fans and many people on this site can tell you that I love funk far beyond just Prince and Rick James.
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[Edited 8/20/05 15:22pm]

love his music, it was what I was brought up with. MJ is a great entertainer, musican wise nothing there.

Stay away from the little boys Mike, be remembered 4 the music....

COMPUTERBLUE1984 said:

vainandy said:

Sorry, don't agree. Musicians like Percy Sledge don't get inducted into RHF as soon as most white folks because of racism, but because it is first and foremost "A Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame". Rock musicians come first in importance, musicians of other styles then. Not even Todd Rundgren is there yet, there are a lot of names to be inducted before all "lesser" names get in. If you ask my opinion, Einstürzende Neubauten and Coil should both be there, but are they? They aren't rock either, but white as hell.