"little boxes, little boxes....."

My opinion is, post "thriller", mike has been himself. His increasing eccentricity, thanx to the mega sucess of "thriller", helped him create such dark albums as "dangerous" and "history". No one can do those albums. No one.


The reason why people hate on his shit post "thriller" is because Mike changed. He did what he wanted to do and not let quincy show him or suggest what he shoul do. He learned from quincy, then moved on. He deserves to be up there with Bowie.

To be unique, and knowing those songs off "dangerous" etc are well crafted pop songs, deserves way more respect then his earlier "critical" sucsesses, which were more the work of quincy then Mike.

Post "thriller", mike got amazing. He is up their with the best.

I respect bowie and stevie, even though I dont like them. I know their amazing but just not for me. U haters should see that in Mike. No one can create the way he does.

CalhounSq said:

Looks like Norma Desmond from Sunset Boulevard

thesexofit said:

"Dangerous" and "HIStory" are darker, more personal albums, but they suffer from MASSIVELY inorganic, overcooked production and throw a bunch of rehashed themes and ridiculous ego rants at their consumers, which are my problems with them, not the fact that he moved on from Quincy.

squiddyren said:

True. I dont hate on anyone hating his later albums, but they do have their moments of genius and to me, are alot more enjoyable and unique.

thesexofit said:

Glad we can agree to disagree. The two albums aren't totally hateable (neither is "Invincible", even ), but I just think that compared to the pure. organic soul of "Off The Wall" and "Thriller", there's absolutely no competition.

squiddyren said:

I used to get hate for daring to dislike "off the wall" from a few orgers, but Iam glad not all are like that.

The organic soul is what annoys me proberly. I just dont find them that good.

Plus as a final tossoff, the jacksons 12" remix of "shake your body" beats anything from "off the wall"

I used to LOVE MJ. He was my favorite singer when I was a kid but it was in 1991 where my allegiance shifted to Prince. What I loved and still like about him is that he has made some of the best songs ever. Billie Jean, Rock With You, Don't Stop..., Beat It, Bad, Remember The Time, those were some songs that made me want to dance and made me feel good and they still do. It just bothers me that he hasn't been consistant with making quality music. He's so concerned about having a hit song and still being hot that he's compromised a lot and his music has suffered from it.

Then you have the image. I'm with Vainandy in that he's the last of the "stars" that we have but he's gone crazy with it. His lack of judgement with boys is just appalling. Plus his face, my God, I don't need to say more on that. I just miss the man I was a fan of in 1987. I wish I could see a glimpse of him again. I can't call myself a fan but for sentimental reasons I still buy the albums. He will always go down as one of the greats and he deserves that.

Rick James was the perfect one to compare to Prince. Rick had always been Prince's rival, not Michael. When the pop world finally learned who Prince was, they started comparing him to Michael but the only comparison between Prince and Michael is they are both feminine.

Rick could do damn near everything on the albums like Prince could. Rick was controlling....it was his way or the highway. Rick had several protegees. He had already produced Teena Marie and an album for The Stone City Band before Prince came out with The Time's first album. And as far as hardcore, ass kicking funk goes, Rick was the only one that could come close to Prince. They had a rivalry for years and all the R&B magazines loved to egg it on. It was non stop jams from both sides of the fence for years.

As far as success goes, Rick had a major crossover success with "Super Freak". The thing I admire most about Rick though, is that afterwards, he stayed true to his original fans that had been with him since the beginning with his next album and kept right on jamming the way he always had. When Prince made his splash, he ran a lot of his original fans away with his next album.
[Edited 8/17/05 20:02pm]

the second best american popular music singer and the BEST dancer that popular music and popular culture has ever seen...

a creative genius and beautiful being.

badujunkie said:

positive comments for Michael Jakcson and Madonna. I've never seen such positivity on the org.

That 12 Inch is bad as hell! I never heard it back in the day but I heard it for the first time last year in a mix show. It was slammin!

Yep except for Invicible. Sorry but that Cd was really bad.

Like the occasional track, but I've long since grown out of Michael Jackson. When I was younger, I liked his childish antics a lot more, but the older I get, the more transparent he seems.

Plus, his nutso fans really work my nerves. Didn't you know that Michael Jackson is the next best thing to Jesus, and shoots sunshine out his ass?

No I thought that was Madonna.

BoOTyLiCioUs said:

In my experience, most Madonna fans can admit when the woman has made a mistake or a questionable career move. I've seen too many of these MJ fans defend his ridiclious behavior tooth and nail...

Axchi696 said:

"Rick James was the perfect one to compare to Prince. Rick had always been Prince's rival, not Michael. When the pop world finally learned who Prince was, they started comparing him to Michael but the only comparison between Prince and Michael is they are both feminine.

Rick could do damn near everything on the albums like Prince could. Rick was controlling....it was his way or the highway. Rick had several protegees. He had already produced Teena Marie and an album for The Stone City Band before Prince came out with The Time's first album. And as far as hardcore, ass kicking funk goes, Rick was the only one that could come close to Prince. They had a rivalry for years and all the R&B magazines loved to egg it on. It was non stop jams from both sides of the fence for years.

As far as success goes, Rick had a major crossover success with "Super Freak". The thing I admire most about Rick though, is that afterwards, he stayed true to his original fans that had been with him since the beginning with his next album and kept right on jamming the way he always had. When Prince made his splash, he ran a lot of his original fans away with his next album."

We've been over this before, but you think that Prince should have stayed with funk and R&B and not done anything classical, trippy, bluesy,jazzy, or psychadelic. You like your Prince to be the 1978-1984 electro funkrocker right? In that box, Prince is comparable to Rick. However, Prince after 1984 launched into another galaxy. He left Rick James on Earth and went to where Jimi, James, Stevie, The Beatles, and MJ were. Prince became more than just a "funk artist" and became more signifigant than Rick James ever could be. Yeah, lotta people love Rick James-me included. However, Prince is in a different league/category than Rick. Prince whooped Rick's ass by the time "Dirty Mind" was out. That is why Rick was sweatin' him so much.

Oh I'm sure of that.

"My opinion is, post "thriller", mike has been himself. His increasing eccentricity, thanx to the mega sucess of "thriller", helped him create such dark albums as "dangerous" and "history". No one can do those albums. [b]No one.


The reason why people hate on his shit post "thriller" is because Mike changed. He did what he wanted to do and not let quincy show him or suggest what he shoul do. He learned from quincy, then moved on. He deserves to be up there with Bowie.

To be unique, and knowing those songs off "dangerous" etc are well crafted pop songs, deserves way more respect then his earlier "critical" sucsesses, which were more the work of quincy then Mike.

Post "thriller", mike got amazing. He is up their with the best.

I respect bowie and stevie, even though I dont like them. I know their amazing but just not for me. U haters should see that in Mike. No one can create the way he does.[/b]

Don't get me wrong post Thriller MJ is always underrated. He did some stuff after "thriller" that was amazing-and different than what he did before.

However, to say he should be thought of like Bowie (musically) is not accurate. Bowie is adventurous musically-MJ is not. MJ always plays it safe with his music-I'd say because he wants a wider audience. To make it sound like MJ rebelled against Quincy and went off on his own is false. All you have to do is look at the linear notes of his albums to see how many people produced and played Michael Jackson's music and you'll see this.

Yes, MJ evolved musically, but he also stayed with his formula for making "hit records." Saying MJ evolved is like saying the James Bond movies evolve. Even if we love it, it is basically the same movie over and over again updated for today. That's how MJ is.

Dangerous and History were very dark for MJ. However, compared to Prince's darkest music-it is fluff. Hell, Prince's music isn't even that dark when compared to others.

GrayKing said:

...and Canada is the second.

Axchi696 said:

You and I both know that's a lie. Come on, we both used to visit Dotmusic.

That's where he messed up. He went to another galaxy alright....La La Land....and he never returned. Rick may have been the one on the drugs but, during this time, Prince's music was sounding like he was on a major drug trip. Prince started listening to the "he's a genius" bit and let it go to his head and tried to live up to the "genius" label. He lost a lot of fans because of it.

Rick had no desire to be anything other than a funk artist. As I said before, when he made his mark in the pop world, he came right back with the funk for the fans that had been with him long before the "Super Freak" fans. That's something to be admired because it's very rare for a funk artist to continue pleasing their original audience after they have made a pop splash. Rick's first mess-up was the same time as Prince's...."Glow" in 1985. Drugs were the reason for that though. After that, Rick was just like Prince....good but no longer great.




If Prince had not been on that tour with Rick James and saw what shock value did for Rick, he probably would not have turned out as shocking as he was. Rick has already been wild ass hell firing up joints in public as if they were cigarettes, singing about sex, drugs, prostitution, and the ghetto. For Prince to open for someone like that, he had better get him some shock value also or he would have bombed.

As far as who whipped who, they were pretty much tic for tac for a while. Rick tore Prince's ass up with "Street Songs" and that is an accomplishment because "Controversy" is definately a hell of an album to compete with. It was back and forth as to who was on top and fans from both sides were equally as passionate as to who was the best. I was in the middle but I slightly favored Prince.

Of course Rick was going to badmouth Prince every chance he got. Prince was a threat to his throne and eventually took it.
[Edited 8/17/05 23:18pm]

Hey you dig Rick James more than the average person-that's cool. The fact is that Rick JAmes legacy is nowhere near what Prince's is/will be. Prince has his funk roots, but he trancended everything that Rick did. Did you like it better? No. That's not the point. The point is that, you may say, Rick did funk first or better than Prince. However, Prince isn't in the same category as Rick and hasn't been since 1999 came out. Rick James never was a global superstar on the level that Prince is/was. He never crossed over to the masses like Prince did. You might hold Rick James in the same class that Prince is in, but the rest of the world doesn't. Like I said, Prince is in a different league than Rick. Prince took things further and to greater commercial (and critical) success. Rick was never and MTV staple. Rick never had a huge mainstream movie of his own doing. Rick James was a funky, nasty, funk punk and I love him for it, but most don't hold him in the same regard that they do Prince. Plus, for as much as you think Prince copied Rick James-the MPLS sound was unique and very much not Rick James. Sure, Prince took things from Rick James, but Prince intergrates thing from everyone. In the music world, Prince stands out as being his own thing. Prince is and always has been unique. Rick James did his own thing, but to a lesser extent. He was one of a handful of funked out glammmed out artists in the late 70's early 80's. Again, Prince tranceded that label between 1981-1984. Don't believe me ? Go online and find some quotes about what Rick James is/was and what he means to people, and go see what Prince is and what he means to people.
[Edited 8/18/05 0:20am]

skywalker said:

yea ur right prince is a pop artist a lot of the time. but most times he's MORE than a pop artist. hes kinda beyond that (this aint a diss to mike)

skywalker said:

I think Prince started to kick Rick's ass from 1983 on...But to dismiss Rick as just "a handful of glammed out artists in the late 70s and early 80's" shows your lack of understanding on Rick's legacy...The man was basically keeping Motown afloat from 1978 to 1984...Prince wasn't better than Rick because he got MTV love and crossed over...P was better than Rick because he was the more focused and ambitious artist...I myself admired Rick's stand against racist ass MTV back in the days...Let's be real...Prince got played on MTV because his label started to push him as an rock artist...He was the light skinned cross over wonder kid...If you don't think that played a role in Prince getting early airplay of "Little Red Corvette" (along with the song's rock leanings), you are fooling yourself...

And to the other cat that said that Prince lost his way after Purple Rain, I think that's a pretty questionable statement...I mean Sign O' the Times by itself showed that the man could be ranked with the immortals (Stevie, Beatles, Bob Dylan, Jimi ect...)...By then he was leaps and bounds ahead of Rick, who I have a lot of love a respect for to this day..Just my humble opinion...
[Edited 8/18/05 0:56am]
[Edited 8/18/05 0:58am]

badujunkie said:

That's wonderfully refreshing.

thesexofit said:

I don't like the whole "Quincy created Michael" thing that people have. He only co-wrote the re-vamp of PYT. The home demos of DSTYGE and WDAN don't sound that dissimiilar to the finished versions production wise. Anything Quincy has done since has sounded quite dated - they created magic together, Michael was producing too, and what he did on Destiny with his brothers is a testiment to his own talent in that era.

It's like Rod Temperton too. What amazing songs he wrote! Better than anything he did with Heatwave, yet what's he up to now?

I've heard many a time that all Q did on Bad was just pick the track order, and this was the guy who nearly scrapped Smooth Criminal and protested against the long intro to Billie Jean. And Jesus Christ, the man is in his 70s now but people are still waffling on about how he could "save" Michael. Yes, Q is a genius, but people give him far too much credit.
[Edited 8/18/05 2:53am]

Ellie said:

No, hon. You're wrong. Quincy MADE Michael. Everybody knows that.