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Thread started 08/09/05 2:07am

Anxiety

Sufjan Stevens is not Christian enough.

http://in.today.reuters.c...1883-1.xml

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Rocker Sufjan Stevens frequently channels faith through his music, but falls short of the standards of the Christian Music Trade Association -- a key U.S. gatekeeper in deciding what music is "Christian."

The association's seal of approval can mean lucrative exposure in a hot segment of an otherwise stagnant music market, and provide a stepping stone to broader success.

Stevens' ode to Jesus Christ, "To Be Alone With You," was heard during an episode of the popular and racy Fox TV teen drama "The OC."

An appearance on such a show would not necessarily hurt an artist's standing with the group, said president John Styll of the CMTA, which represents music labels specializing in Christian music.

"I would love to see more Christian music in venues that need it, so to speak," he said. "We love to let the light shine where it is darkest."

However, Styll said, Stevens lacks adequate distribution through Christian channels and has not shown a desire for the association's imprimatur. "He just doesn't want to play the Christian music-market game, and that's OK," Styll said.

According to CMTA's Christian SoundScan arm, U.S. album sales of Christian rock grew around 125 percent from 2003 to 2004, expanding to 8.25 million from 3.66 million. During the same period, total U.S. album sales grew only 1.6 percent, rising to 666.7 million from 656.2 million.

Christian SoundScan data, collected with Nielsen Media Research, is publicized through Christian charts in Billboard magazine. Nielsen and Billboard are the property of Dutch media group VNU NV.

Hot groups on the Christian-music charts include Jars of Clay and Relient K. Jars of Clay sold 6 million albums last year, including many outside the CMTA's tracking.

To qualify, CMTA's Styll says albums must receive some national play on Christian radio, 25 percent of sales in the first week must be in Christian shops, and lyrics must have "Christian content."

Lyrics must be "in line with the principles taught in scripture," Styll said, a definition he acknowledges can be "a little loose."

Other factors might also play a role, he said, such as the venues an artist plays, or one's willingness to appear at Christian events like the twice-yearly Creation Festival. "You just kind of generally know" if someone fits in, he said.

Sufjan Stevens' growing appeal is not reflected in the Christian charts, despite songs like 'To Be Alone With You' and often strongly spiritual lyrics ("Oh Lamb of God!/Tell us your perfect design").

A favorite of the secular indie-rock scene, Stevens plays at edgier, smoke- and beer-choked venues, and his lyrics occasionally veer to off-color.

Lowell Brams, a manager at Stevens' label, Asthmatic Kitty, said most of the label's artists are Christian, but care little for the association's certification.

Other artists do care. The benefit of certification can be their first widespread publicity on Billboard, catching the eye of bigger retailers and labels.

"It's worked fine for us," said Jeff Risden, an agent representing Relient K.

The group got its first national exposure on the Christian charts in 2000, and eventually signed a recording contract with major label Capitol Records.
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Reply #1 posted 08/09/05 2:17am

Anxiety

maybe this should be in P&R, but it's kind of more about the music industry, and how silly people can get with labels...
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Reply #2 posted 08/09/05 2:21am

GangstaFam

Watching the Christian videos, I can barely tell that any of that stuff is supposed to be Christian.
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Reply #3 posted 08/09/05 2:27am

Anxiety

i think good inspirational music doesn't stick out as such - that's why i like sufjan's songwriting so much. it's not like listening to stryper or amy grant. the guy is witty and intelligent, and he happens to also be christian.

you'd think the contemporary christian music community would embrace a guy who's able to become the next hot young indie rock thing. it's very silly.
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Reply #4 posted 08/09/05 2:35am

GangstaFam

Anxiety said:

i think good inspirational music doesn't stick out as such - that's why i like sufjan's songwriting so much. it's not like listening to stryper or amy grant. the guy is witty and intelligent, and he happens to also be christian.

you'd think the contemporary christian music community would embrace a guy who's able to become the next hot young indie rock thing. it's very silly.

I'm still waiting for Frank's prediction of Christian booty videos. lol

"Shake what your father gave ya!"
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Reply #5 posted 08/09/05 2:51am

Anxiety

GangstaFam said:

Anxiety said:

i think good inspirational music doesn't stick out as such - that's why i like sufjan's songwriting so much. it's not like listening to stryper or amy grant. the guy is witty and intelligent, and he happens to also be christian.

you'd think the contemporary christian music community would embrace a guy who's able to become the next hot young indie rock thing. it's very silly.

I'm still waiting for Frank's prediction of Christian booty videos. lol

"Shake what your father gave ya!"


falloff
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Reply #6 posted 08/09/05 5:01am

VoicesCarry

Recipe for an inspirational song:

Take 1 standard love song
Add God as object of affection
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Reply #7 posted 08/09/05 5:19am

Anxiety

VoicesCarry said:

Recipe for an inspirational song:

Take 1 standard love song
Add God as object of affection


i think sufjan saw that episode of south park, cuz his stuff isn't anywhere near that formulaic. maybe he should be, so he can get a duet with sandi patti!
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Reply #8 posted 08/09/05 5:32am

JediMaster

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Personally, I think its better that Stevens doesn't try to kowtow to an industry label. He can express his faith through his music just as easily by being tagged "secular', while being free to address other topics as well.

I'm not familiar with this guy, but I'm intrigued by his approach.
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #9 posted 08/09/05 5:33am

Anxiety

JediMaster said:

Personally, I think its better that Stevens doesn't try to kowtow to an industry label. He can express his faith through his music just as easily by being tagged "secular', while being free to address other topics as well.

I'm not familiar with this guy, but I'm intrigued by his approach.


yeah, i agree. i just think the attitude of the "industry" is ridiculous.
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Reply #10 posted 08/09/05 5:42am

JediMaster

avatar

Anxiety said:

JediMaster said:

Personally, I think its better that Stevens doesn't try to kowtow to an industry label. He can express his faith through his music just as easily by being tagged "secular', while being free to address other topics as well.

I'm not familiar with this guy, but I'm intrigued by his approach.


yeah, i agree. i just think the attitude of the "industry" is ridiculous.


I've always felt that way. Heck, I find many "inspirational" songs by "secular" artists to be far more uplifting than most of the dreck on "Christian" radio. I mean really, I'd rather listen to "Yaweh" by U2 anyday than anything by Sandi Patti or Amy Grant.
jedi

Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones. (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
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Reply #11 posted 08/09/05 10:04am

namepeace

Generally speaking, you can find Christian music in the oddest places.

A Love Supreme is Christian music.

Ironically enough, Passion is the best album of religious music I own.

You can hear Christianity in music that may not even intend to be Christian. I hear echoes of Christianity in many of my favorite songs.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #12 posted 08/09/05 10:22am

OdysseyMiles

Anxiety said:

VoicesCarry said:

Recipe for an inspirational song:

Take 1 standard love song
Add God as object of affection


i think sufjan saw that episode of south park, cuz his stuff isn't anywhere near that formulaic. maybe he should be, so he can get a duet with sandi patti!


"I need you in my life....Jeeesus....can't live without you....Jeeeesus.

My fav:

I wanna get down on my knees and start praisin' Jeesus/ I wanna feel his salvation all over my face... cartman
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Reply #13 posted 08/09/05 1:20pm

TRON

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Let's hope he doesn't make the transition from "The Cross" to "The Christ".
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Reply #14 posted 08/09/05 4:42pm

sosgemini

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ehh..i dont consider his music christian either...

but what do i know? shrug

this i do know though..this guy (like Rufus Wrainright) is a one trick pony...I was soo dissapointed in his new album....its way way way way too similiar in sound and structure to his last "state" album.....

and not in the tracy chapman or sade kinda create their own vibe and sound way...im talking songs sounding way way too much like way way too much like previous songs...with previous stories being told...

and whats up with John Wayne Gacy? barf
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Reply #15 posted 08/09/05 4:47pm

Anxiety

sosgemini said:

ehh..i dont consider his music christian either...

but what do i know? shrug

this i do know though..this guy (like Rufus Wrainright) is a one trick pony...I was soo dissapointed in his new album....its way way way way too similiar in sound and structure to his last "state" album.....

and not in the tracy chapman or sade kinda create their own vibe and sound way...im talking songs sounding way way too much like way way too much like previous songs...with previous stories being told...

and whats up with John Wayne Gacy? barf


wow. gotta play the "diff'rent strokes" card here, buddy. i think "illinois" is wonderful, and i think the john wayne gacy song is as mournful as it is disturbing. the first time i listened to it, i nearly went all sobby. i could relate to the sadness and tragedy of the victims, and it was done without any kind of self-righteous "string up the monster" kind of indignation - it has some very rare and nuanced emotion going on that i don't know i've ever heard in any other song.
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Reply #16 posted 08/09/05 4:52pm

sosgemini

avatar

Anxiety said:

sosgemini said:

ehh..i dont consider his music christian either...

but what do i know? shrug

this i do know though..this guy (like Rufus Wrainright) is a one trick pony...I was soo dissapointed in his new album....its way way way way too similiar in sound and structure to his last "state" album.....

and not in the tracy chapman or sade kinda create their own vibe and sound way...im talking songs sounding way way too much like way way too much like previous songs...with previous stories being told...

and whats up with John Wayne Gacy? barf


wow. gotta play the "diff'rent strokes" card here, buddy. i think "illinois" is wonderful, and i think the john wayne gacy song is as mournful as it is disturbing. the first time i listened to it, i nearly went all sobby. i could relate to the sadness and tragedy of the victims, and it was done without any kind of self-righteous "string up the monster" kind of indignation - it has some very rare and nuanced emotion going on that i don't know i've ever heard in any other song.


oh i agree..its a pretty song...i would hate it without the mornful harmonizing he and his "same chick he always uses" moaning..

however, the song IMHO reeks of exploitation...just dont like the whole "kiss their mouth", "takes of their clothes", "are you one of them" parts...
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Reply #17 posted 08/09/05 6:48pm

SassyBritches

this is soooo stupid. because the guy has an original thought in his head and expresses his christianity in an artful manner, he is being told he doesn't fir in the christian music scene. forget that his best friend - and regular player on his records - is the pastor of a brooklyn PCA church...the very same church Sufjan regularly attends. perhaps some of you don't know but PCA churches tend to be rather strict churches; certainly more strict than many of the so called christian acts i've seen on tv appear to be.

i'm certainly not trying to speak for Sufjan but i can probably guess that he's not too concerned with labels being or not being attached to his work. i do know he got rather frustrated when the seven swans disc came out and everyone was tripping over the fact that he's an "out" christian. pff, like its some big ol' scandal, lol!

anyway, his work is probably a little too "artsy" and "deep" for anything the christian stations would play. good. i'd like to keep him a lesser known secret for a little while longer. soon enough he'll be the "next" elliot smith or the "next" rufus wainwright.
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Reply #18 posted 08/09/05 6:54pm

SassyBritches

Anxiety said:

sosgemini said:

ehh..i dont consider his music christian either...

but what do i know? shrug

this i do know though..this guy (like Rufus Wrainright) is a one trick pony...I was soo dissapointed in his new album....its way way way way too similiar in sound and structure to his last "state" album.....

and not in the tracy chapman or sade kinda create their own vibe and sound way...im talking songs sounding way way too much like way way too much like previous songs...with previous stories being told...

and whats up with John Wayne Gacy? barf


wow. gotta play the "diff'rent strokes" card here, buddy. i think "illinois" is wonderful, and i think the john wayne gacy song is as mournful as it is disturbing. the first time i listened to it, i nearly went all sobby. i could relate to the sadness and tragedy of the victims, and it was done without any kind of self-righteous "string up the monster" kind of indignation - it has some very rare and nuanced emotion going on that i don't know i've ever heard in any other song.

i totally agree with you, anxiety.

look, sufjan is deep, y'all. in the short, little 3 minute song Sufjan basically says nobody is better than anybody. its a very christian message. (sure, many other religions and philosophies teach the same thing but since the message is coming from a christian bloke, i'll just say its a christian message.) he's telling this awful story about this guy - part of illinois's history, mind you - and in the end he's saying that "i am really just like him." in other words, God will decide judgements and not man. we all have our faults and we all fall short, "look beneath the floorboards for the secrets i have hid." personally, i think its brilliant.

the song is beautiful and, once again, showcases that Sufjan incorporates his christian beliefs in ways that are incredibly understated.

.
[Edited 8/9/05 18:57pm]
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Reply #19 posted 08/09/05 7:06pm

sosgemini

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well..i guess im just not deep enough.. rolleyes


shrug
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Reply #20 posted 08/09/05 7:12pm

SassyBritches

sosgemini said:

well..i guess im just not deep enough.. rolleyes


shrug

or...

its just not your cuppa. no biggie. shrug
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Reply #21 posted 08/09/05 7:16pm

sosgemini

avatar

SassyBritches said:

sosgemini said:

well..i guess im just not deep enough.. rolleyes


shrug

or...

its just not your cuppa. no biggie. shrug



actually..i love his experimentation when it comes to instruments..i love his voice (simple, emotional and crisp)...

but this album sounds too to similiar to his previous works...and unlike a sade (who too can sould similiar) his lyrics are very specific so it leaves very lil room for the mind to wander into joyful bliss..you listen to the stories and then get bored..were as sade tends to leave much to the imagination thus allowing your mind to work and fill in the blanks....and create music in the head.....


i went to oakland, stockton, sf ca and finally found this beast in ny..i made an effort and was let down by it.
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Reply #22 posted 08/09/05 7:18pm

SassyBritches

perhaps the christian groups just don't like:

"all the glory when He took our place
and he took my shoulders and He shook my face
...and He takes and He takes and He takes."

hey, at least he's honest.
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Reply #23 posted 08/09/05 7:57pm

yamomma

Moderator

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"Christian radio" and "Christian labels" are NOT run by Christians. In fact, some bands claim that they are worse than most secular lables. Same game with a different name.
© 2015 Yamomma®
All Rights Reserved.
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Reply #24 posted 08/09/05 8:09pm

Anxiety

yamomma said:

"Christian radio" and "Christian labels" are NOT run by Christians. In fact, some bands claim that they are worse than most secular lables. Same game with a different name.


most christian media doesn't seem to be run by christians, if you wanna get down to the nuts and bolts of it all. neutral
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Reply #25 posted 08/09/05 8:20pm

JonSnow

I love Jars of Clay (i'm shocked they sold 6 million CDs last year), and Caedmon's Call - two excellent pop/rock bands who happen to be Christian. And Sufjan's album I am still absorbing, but I like some of it. There are some excellent Christian bands, but ultimately the possible market for a band labeled "Christian" is fairly limited.

However... you become known for your music first, and your spirituality second, you have a better chance for wider acclaim. (see Bono, for instance.)

Pedro the Lion is in a similar situation. Very Christian, but not at all connected with that industry.
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Reply #26 posted 08/09/05 8:47pm

TRON

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Can y'all see Prince being carried in Christian stores?
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Reply #27 posted 08/09/05 8:48pm

Anxiety

TRON said:

Can y'all see Prince being carried in Christian stores?


erm...yeah. boxed
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Reply #28 posted 08/09/05 8:51pm

TRON

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Anxiety said:

erm...yeah. boxed

I'm sure Lovesexy would be selling like hot cakes. lol
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Reply #29 posted 08/09/05 9:00pm

Anxiety

TRON said:

Anxiety said:

erm...yeah. boxed

I'm sure Lovesexy would be selling like hot cakes. lol


i don't think he's made the album now, but i can see him releasing an extremely vanilla "inspirational" album in the next few years. something that would make TRC look like "back in black".
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