First of all its great that a brother brings up this topic. It really hit me first when I moved to LA from Europe in 1994. By that time I was a well known DJ in european acid jazz and rare groove circles and I thought in the States I would blow people away because I played deep down rooted funk and dancefloor jazz. wrooong. the black clubs I have played were mostly a failure for me, because I did not play hip hop.I was shocked when I saw beautiful sisters with afros and platform shoes dissing my music because "it just aint funky enough, white boy dont know shit!" what else is left to say when a 21 year old afro american girl from LA asks you to play some funk when James Brown's "Give it up turn it loose" is spinning at the very same moment?
as supernova pointed out correctly, the problem lies in the early 80s. kids started sampling and scratching, they became the producers of today. every recording company seeks to produce with the least possible financial investment. why hire a whole band (musicians wanna be paid), put them in a big (expensive) studio when you just loop some beats and have somebody singer over it (thanx to pro tools a very easy process)?
its not that the approach has changed. record companies always wanted to make money. james brown, joe tex, earth wind & fire, mandrill - in the old days it was too pop music cutting million sellers. but since there was no computer music people had to be able to PLAY! so actual musicians still had the chance to sell records. however, besides the fact that you got quality music the biz was as fucked up as it is today. it was more segregated. just like today performers where limited to cut songs no longer than 3:30 minutes - so they would fit a 45. albums were non cared for as they were simply a collection of the already released 45s... (at least thats how it was in the 60s). motown was the perfect example how the record industry exploited its artists and created one unique sound with a whole rooster of replaceble artists...
but hey, the music was alright and soulful. and thats what matters. what they call R n b or new soul today is nothing but black pop to me and has no status in my musical bool... sad but true!

www.angelfire.com/nt/dreamfirstborn

this music on the download comes from the soul of black man

Moonbeam said:

LOL!
I have the Res cd and still haven't listened to it in its entirety. And I've had it for months. Now that my Lakers have gotten over their toughest test in 3 years (no disrespect to how the Blazers pushed them in the 2000 WCF), I feel much better.

Supernova said:

You can be happy for us both, then.

gman:


I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU 200%
&
laurenrichardson's comment took it a step further.


We now have a whole generation which has grown up on sampled, mass-produced, copy-cat junk which is supposed to pass for music, & that is REALLY sad. Worse, I see virtually no sign of this situation improving. Too bad.


I make it a point to check out some new performers, but most of what I hear doesn't interest me at all. Recently, I find myself listening to other types of music; you know, music made by REAL musicians, playing REAL instruments & singing the songs themselves.


It seems that a lot of these "old school" singers & musicians have "bought into" the current state of "r&b music": either they're collaborating with some of today's perpatrators, or they're saying that it's okay to be sampled &/or copied.

The ONE "old school" musician I've heard who has actually condoned the current state of today's "r&B music" is Leroy "Sugarfoot" Bonner, the SUPERB guitarist of the Ohio Players. I read an interview with him- online, I think the interview was done quite a few years ago- & Sugar minced NO WORDS in talking about the overall SORRY state of today's music. Of course, as a dissident, Sugar's comments got little if any notice by anyone not a big OP fan.


I don't necessarily expect today's 22 & under crowd to really dig the MUSICIANS & SINGERS that I did when I came up in the 70s & early 80s; indeed, each generation has its own tastes, references & whatever..
again, to me it's sad that this generation has had basically NO EXPOSURE to real musicians & singers.


Oh well. D'Angelo & india.arie are doing their (small) part..

the more I hear what's out there now, the more I want to hear what I know is good

In few months from now things are going to change .

I'm 32 this year with a brother who turns 36 this year as well. I really wonder about the state of "black music." I'm a white guy with serious doses of soul in my blood For the most part nowadays, I just don't get it...I wonder if it'm me or does music just not do it 4 me anymore? I hate 2 think that I'm getting old and jaded but no one seems to have that something special...Your Cameos, E,W, and Fires, Gap Bands-they all had something about them...And of course Prince...That leads me 2 ask, Is there anyone out there with the persona and electricity about them that Prince had coming up through the ranks? Everyone now, seems so marketed and I don't have the time to really search. Being out here in Hawaii, my radio is very limited. If it's not Britney and the rest of her gang,it's Hawaiian music...Hawaiian music is great to chill out to but it really doesn't challenge U 2 think...But that's a good thing...sometimes...Aloha~

I definitely hear you over here. I remember when I first heard Parliament "P-Funk" on the radio and it created a whirr!!! My cousin had gotten me into Funkadelic, Ohio Players, the Barkays, LTD, the Commodores, the Isley Brothers. Black music was jumping say from 1976 to the early 80s. Then you had Cameo, Rick James, the Gap Bands, all the one hit copy-cat bands. I remember bands having their rivals and the drum solo. It was about musicianship back then.

But I do admit that I do like some rap music and there are some good female vocalists if they would: stop doing remakes or adding samples of remakes in songs. Before, I'm eating my words here, but I was a little annoyed by Prince's article about doing covers, but after seeing Soul Train for 3 weeks in a row, it's boring. Write something new!!! Something besides, "my man is cheating and I'm burning his clothes cuz I'm a surviva" type of spiel. Black men do a hell of a lot more than just cheating. Give the brothas some props for a change. As for as rappers like Piddy-Da-Fool - do something more interesting and songs that have some sort of groove or structure other than sounding like your drum machine is on the blink.

LQ

I agree with basically everything that everyone has stated so far but one thing. That is Davideye's whole hating the 80's thing. You can't suggest that everyone before the 80's was an exceptional singer, although many of them were. I SOOO often hear people trashing the 80's saying how terrible everything was. How terrible the music was, how terrible T.V. was, how terrible fashion was, just everything and it really gets' to me sometimes. I have very fond memories of the 80's because it was the decade I basically grew up in (some of the 70's as well) and to hear it constantly trashed kinda baffles me. Most music of today is sampled from 80's music and too many people don't seem to recognize it. Some dismiss it now as being "cheezy", but at the time it wasn't. There is a sense of innocence about "cheezy" that I would love to have present in THIS day and time. I know people hating the 80's are just opinions, but so is mine. Let me digress a little. I know what I'm about to say is a little off topic but I'm "feelin'" this right now.

I am not hear to "diss" anyone but I just saw a preview of the Essence Awards, and to see Roberta Flack serenade Alicia Keys via piano and song, just made me shake my head. I can appreciate Alicia's talent, but I think she is WAY overrated. This girl is being honored with "special" awards and she has only released one album?

OK, one last one. I will even accept some of you saying I'm hatin' but I MUST say this. I think Mary J.Blige is THE most overrated singer modern day black music has EVER seen. People have the GAUL to put this woman in the same category as Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, and Patti Labelle. Shoot,for that matter, Mary J. Blige can't even touch Whitney Houston, Faith Evans, or Kelly Price. I just don't get it. I can't say I don't enjoy some of her music but I just don't think she should be put on the pedastal she is placed on.

VelvetJ said:

Oh,I guess I gave you the wrong impression.I DO NOT hate the 80s!...lol...I think it was SuperNova who said that "the 80s sucked"...lol...my favorite era of music is actually the years 1975-1985.In those ten years,some of the best music of all-time was released.But I admit,I am partial to the 70s,that was my favorite era.I grew up listening to Al Green,Marvin,Stevie,Earth Wind and Fire,Disco,funk,pop...it was all good back then.

DavidEye said:

I'm sorry Davideye. I read a post by you where your reply included Supernova's quote. My mistake.

Actually you just said something that I have never thought about. I normally just say I love the music of the 80's but I think what I should have been saying was my favorite music era is between 1975 and 1985 as well. I think music started to really change for me in 1987 and I haven't been totally happy with it since then.

What can we do to change this generations' taste in music. It sickens mean to hear how brilliant Britney Spears is, and how talented Jennifer Lopez is. How can we get the "fun" and innocence and musicianship back into black music? Some say art imitates life, but in this day and time I think it is more so the other way around. We are all STILL paying for the popularity of gangsta rap in this country. Gangsta rap and some hip hip were reflections of individual people's lives and individualy communities. It was "glamourized" and suddenly we are hearing about drive by's in Phoenix City, Alabama and Toledo, Ohio. To think that music and television has little affect on people and that drive by's in those places were inevitable, is a stupid and ridiculous argument I have often heard. And I don't believe, "it's irresponsible parent's fault these things happen" is a total cop-out. Is there a light at the end of this musical dark tunnel?

I never said the 80s sucked (but now that you mention it...lol), I said I hated the 80s. When taking the entire decade into consideration the creativity and revolution in previous decades is something I cannot put it on the same pedastal as the 70s, 60s, and MAYBE even the 50s - just because there was a musical revoluation going on in the 50s.

But I do realize that many Prince fans who were teens or younger were coming of age in that decade (so was I, but I was also there in 70s), and because of Prince's greatest success in the 80s, not just aesthetically, but commmercially, these reasons seem to be why Prince fans love 80s music to no end.

I take the whole decade into consideration, not just one artist, and yes, I do know that he wasn't the only one making good music back then.

Sometimes our memories are so attached to our innocence when we're younger that it clouds our judgement.

Our musical memories are attached to the prom we went to, to the house parties we went to, to the beach parties we went to, to the first time we had sex, to the family barbeques we listened to music at, etc...then later on when we put it into perspective as adults we remember mostly good things, and tend to forget a lot of the mediocre, or bad things - musically speaking as well.

But having said all that, as much of a fan I am of the 70s and mid to late 60s in soul/pop/rock, there was some terrible music of all those decades. Just like there is good music in all decades, there is also some mediocre music too.

I know I've gone on another tangent, but I think one of the big problems is mainstream radio. It's harder to get quality music on it nowadays on a consistent basis than it was before. It's certainly NOT because there isn't any being made.

So in essence, there is no way I see the 80s standing alongside some previous decades musically on an equal or higher basis. Think of all the giants who were making some of the best music of their careers prior to the 80s. Then think of those who you (meaning anyone) considers legendary during the 80s.

I don't think that comparison is on an even scale.

In my last post I meant to say the "blaming irresponsible parents" for all that is happening today is a total cop-out.

Supernova, in my initial post I made it clear you "hated" the 80's and didn't think it "sucked" although I now see that is also your opinion.

I was not trying to suggest the 80's should be put on a level equal to the previous decades. Although it is your opinion, my whole point in responding to your "hating" of the 80's was to express how much I think the 80's is given such a undeserved raw deal. It has been MY experience that musically and just totally, so many think every decade including the 90's was exceptional EXCEPT the 80's. Were there terrible things in the 80's, of course there were. But for it to get the "guff" it gets is totally baffling to me. Musically, I think the music of the 80's was superior to that of the 90's and current day and that opinion has nothing to do with the "good times" I had in the 80's. I totally enjoyed the music of Cindy Lauper, Culture Club, Whitney Houston, DeBarge, SOS Band, Atlantic Starr, the excitement of Michael Jackson at the time, and the forbidden Dirty Mind, Controversy, 1999, and Purple Rain albums.

I think you have basically stated why you hated the 80's and I can accept that opinion. But musically, it was a enjoyable decade for me and I will always appreciate what came out of it.

By the way Supernova, musically what do you think of the 90's?

VelvetJ said:

I don't know if this pertains to me or not, but if it does, I never said that.



DavidEye said I said it sucked. I didn't quote anyone I just responded to what was said in a few posts.



Not exactly. I was being flippant. But I do think it was inferior to the other decades I mentioned. It's not that I think it was a total waste as a whole.



Hmmm, well, the main people I know of that think the 90s was an exceptional decade for music are young kids. I don't know of many adults (say about 25 years and older) who think so.



Fair enough. But for many it does. The folks that do seem to reminisce about what was going on in their lives at the time - without being asked asked why they like that music better than other decades. But that's not exactly totally different from some other people who love other decades better, really. Music provides a timeline in our lives for most of us who love it.



It's ... ok. I'd probably have to think about it more, although I was never in love with 90s music overall. But to me it's more different in the fact that it's a decade that people went back to trying to make cohesive albums sometime early in the decade (whether the albums were mediocre or not has no bearing on that) as opposed to mainly a lot of hit singles by a ton of artists in the 80s. Overall.

Most mainstream hip hop isn't something that evolved to a better place creatively, if you ask me. Although hip hop started out as mostly fun party music in the late 70s on up to the mid 80s, hip hop's golden age to me is the late 80s thru early (very early) 90s.

I have nothing against party-type hip hop - I loved a lot of Kurtis Blow's music and Run DMC, for example. But even a lot of that type of hip hop is something that went downhill in the 90s. And "gangsta" rap is a blight on hip hop in general. All that bitches and hoes crap about women is just that, crap. Those idiots act like they don't have a Mother.

The quality music is something that people have to seek out, because radio isn't going to play much of it.

People like to point out Britney Spears, N'Sync, and the Backstreet Boys, but there really are no decades that haven't had successful teenybopper music. This is part of the reason that I say some people remember only the good things about music in the past sometimes; they don't seem to remember David Cassidy, Leif Garrett, Paula Abdul, The Osmonds, Stacey Q, Wham!, etc. There's always something for the kids. They grow out of it, and the younger generation latches onto the next wave of teenybopper stars. It's cyclical.

Supernova, the "blaming irresponsible parents" thing was in reference to something I stated before. I payed the price for not proof-reading and was trying to correct my error.

In response to everything else you posted, I clearly understand your points (although I really hate you placed Wham in the same category as Paula Abdul and Stacey Q. Yes, I actually liked Wham).
Peace to you.

VelvetJ said:

LOL
OK. Peace.

My sentiments exactly!!!Let's keep this thread going. I live in Philly and on any giving night you will not be able to go watch a all-black band perform (maybe a jazz act) but certainly not a funk band. They have all disappeared. Get a local club scene listing and you will not be able to find a black band anywhere! Anywhere!!! Oh sure, there are the rappers and dj's but no real bands.

I think Mint Condition and Tony Toni Tone were the last R&B bands to exist. I love the funk music from the 70's but I think that was just the genre that was in at the time, just like it's hip-hop now. I love older and newer music (But I admit to being a total 80's freak). I do get tired of the crappy commercial music on the radio. Sometimes when I hearing something ridiculous I think "Now, if this person got a record deal, I KNOW I can get one." Some of it is pure crap. So, I take solace in my 80's collections, my Bjork, my Prince, my Nikka, my Angie, my Creed, and my classical.

gman1966 said:

You said what I've been thinking for a while. I'm 19 years old, but I am more appreciative of older R&B than current R&B. Even in the past 7 years, I have noticed a BIG change in R&B and not in a good way. For a while there in the 90's, R&B and Pop were merging with acts like Boyz II Men, Salt n' Pepa, Brandy, Babyface, etc, but something went wrong somewhere and now most rap songs are disrespectful to women and all R&B sounds the same. Nothing intriuges me currently. I find myself buying a lot of oldskool cds instead of current ones.

And I am a big fan of Motown and funk and those revolutionary sounds...what happened to them? There still has to be "new stuff" that hasn't been done yet, right? All of this sampling just has to stop somewhere. About the "little girl" vocals...YES that is a problem. Preach on!I used to love Anita Baker and Whitney when her voice was still good.
[This message was edited Sat Jun 8 0:08:42 PDT 2002 by Apollonia6]

DavidEye said:

I think we should give ourselves more credit than that. Sure, our parents didn't understand Prince, or Cameo, or whatever (even if they could play real music) but something really IS wrong with the current state of music, And we see it, not because we're older, but because it really does SUCK. My parents didn't understand Prince, but eventually, I was ABLE to GET them to understand him, because of his musical ability, and his creativity. You can't do that today with these so-called r&b artists. Older people didn't understand punk, but those acts were doing something totally revolutionary, creative. I believe it all has something to do with the over-commercialization of corporations like MTV, which have made kids today brain-dead musically. It's no longer about soul, about passion, about funk, about getting down...it's about fashion, looking good, and being clueless. And while I adore old-school hip-hop (because I immersed myself in it when I was a teen) I do not like what it has done to R&B. I'm not saying that the two genres shouldn't merge, but I'm of the belief that some R&B artists are using hip hop to sell their less-than-good records (mind you, I said some, not ALL), and not staying true to what R&B really is. Ok, I've rambled on enough.

i think, 4 the most part, black music's on the brink of bein shitty nowadays. true, there are a lot of acts out there that i dig (the roots, cee-lo, etc.), but 4 the most part all the other nonsense u see on emptee-vee and bet is absolute garbage. garbage supreme.

no wonder i dig the old-skool so much. it's an escape, u know?

Musically overall, the 70s can't be messed with... Parliament-Funkadelic, Bootsy, James Brown, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin gaye, Stevie, Sly & Family Stone, Bob Marley, EWF...

But we had Prince, the Time, Alexander O'Neal, Michael Jackson, TTD, Public Enemy etc for the 80s.

90s/00s... Prince (still representing, don't hate!), D'Angelo, Bilal, Outkast/Dungeon Family, The Roots etc...

The moral for any era is that you have to search out the few ears of wheat amongst a whole lot of chaff.

I would like to know the state of black music (that's live performances) in your part of the world.

In Philly, it is pretty much non-existance. I can not name a single local black band that performs regularly.

jw1914 said:

Hello JW1914!

DCM here,

Believe it or not there are a few places where you can see R&B in Philly:

The Clef Club
Warmdaddy's on Tuesday Night (Open Mike Jam)I play down there once in a while with the Brand New Heavies singer Ndea Davenport!
The 5 Spot on Tuesday Nights (The Soulquarians -James Poyser & the Misfits-Andre &Vidal show up once in a while!)
Glorias Soulfood Cafe - Power 99's Dee Lee is down there with a R&B Band
My band will be playing on Saturday Nights at Pizzeria UNO on South St. coming up very soon.

And this last one is a dump and you probably know about it -The Hollywood Palace - My wifes Uncle Colt plays down there on thursdays with the BoyzIIMen band (partially) and they let other musicians get up their and jam!!

Give em a try!!

DCM

(I know our views are different on religion, but we definitely agree on music!)

gman1966 said:

And I know that's right I am not old as you people I am 22 and when I was 7 I heard SOTT for the first time and even then I was totally overwhelmed by Prince's musicianship I have never been a fan of the newcomers. I have always liked the old stuff and I don't consider 22 old at all. I totally agree with gman. People don't usually like to hear it but the music back then was really innovative and thought provoking, hell even mind blowing and when I listen to the bands you mention, and the females you mentioned I am still moved beyond words not to mention I also JAM!!!Enough of these new whiny bitches too they suck!!!

dcm said:

I see someone been to Philly. The Clef Club is a very nice spot, but it is mostly jazz there, and Warmdaddy's is a blues joint and some heavy cats smoke in there, the Black Lilly's showcase at the Five Spot ain't what it started to be now that some locals from there have gotten record deals,it has atractted all these rappers looking to be discovered, I too used to play at Hollywood Palace with Big Chucky back in the day, now it's full of drunks trying to relive their hayday. Soulfood Cafe? Haven't checked it out yet, maybe because I hate to listen to Power 99, but I'll give it a try and I will certainly be watching out for your band. Thanks.

.

Where do I began, First, What is Black Music? Did the Average White Band, or Wild Cherry play Black Music? Did Lee Oscar of War play Black Music, Did Tina Marie play Black Music? Does Prince Play Black Music? And if so, What makes it Black?

Did Little Richard and Chuck Berry play Black Music? Did Jimmy Hendrix play Black Music? How can you define Black Music? and then to try and discuss it on Prince Org is insane. What are you really looking for, 2nd, I don't think that the brother that started this topic is a Brother, (smile) What is speak properly? All Language is, is a form of communicating, If one brother speaks to another brother and that brother understands, then they are communicating. You speak of Black Music but at the same time you are putting down black Expression (hip hop, street, slang, etc.) So if you don't know what is Black expression I'm not so sure you know what is Black Music.

3rd. I don't know if you remember or not but Cameo, and the ohio players, barkays, O'jays, did not sell a whole lot of records. I mean Graham Central Station was the funkiest band in the land and Larry Graham did not get a top ten hit until one in a million. (go figure) I personally don't appreciate 90% of Rap music, but I am comparing it to real musicians, and copy can't compete with real. So the argument is silly. When Miles Davis first started using Eletrical Instruments, the Jazz world went nuts, How dare him use an Electric Instrument. (they considered that Blasphemy) But Miles is considered a Legend. When I listen to some of the old school songs, The Lyrics wasn't all that deep, or inspiring, Marvin Gaye, Curtis Mayfield was uplifting, but Cameo, Ohio Players, Gap Band etc. What did they say. Skin Tight britches, Word up, you burn rubber on me, Fantastic voyage etc. Oh yeah and Parliament Funkadelics, although they are Funky, They wrote about getting High all the time. Was that something Our children needed to hear. But they are considered the Best.

I think you should leave Music (Black Music or what ever music) as just music, Not life or death, not the end of the world, not the sky is falling, Not get your family and move to the hills, because after all. We don't die, we just multiply. Quit putting the kids down, and if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't watch it and please don't air it.

In response to jazzy328is

Dude, what he hell are you talking about!!! and what the hell are you talking about that I am not a Black man or a Brother!!! I do not where you are coming from with those crazy ass comments. I am simply stating that there is a serious lack of muscicanship in todays current state of Black music because a lot of these kids are taking the time to learn instrumentation.

What is Black music??? Are you serious with a silly commnent like that!!! I am not going to even debate with on that one. You must not be Black to make a comment like that because my entire my life every Brother and Sister I have ever encountered would agree with my definition of Black music or Soul music.