CinisterCee said:

Why do i need to explain?

Nikki23 said:

Yeah. Unfortunately I don't understand.

for living in Neverland? I think other kids would wanna live there right away. Plus I am sure that Mike´s a wonderful father. I won´t let media´s "scandals" Or Mike´s stupid mistakes fool me. We all make mistakes - we are just lucky not to be filmed and than shown on TV worldwide.

CinisterCee said:

Ok i just feel for them ,MJ is not exactly father of the year i mean the guy has problems , and their Mum sold them to him now all you MJ lovers don't attack me ..its true.

CinisterCee said:

Because they're growing up as his kids, experiencing his crazy, fucked up life and "parenting skills."

don´t take this as an attack, but the truth is that his parenting skills are questioned only by the media. Even Miss Presley who has not been the most positive about him in the past few years said she believes he´s a wonderful father.


Is Madonnaś life less crazier than MJ´s?
Is Ozzy Osbourne´s life less fucked up than MJ´s ?

How many ppl feel sorry for those kids as they do for MJ´s?

MJ IS a good parent imo... but a fucking scary one (awesome singer/dancer though)

dag said:[quote]
Who's talking about Madonna? I'm talking about Michael Jackson.

poor kids...

Rhondab said:

OMG!

dag said:

Hell yea I feel sorry for Ozzy's kids! None of them graduated from high school, nor do I believe that they have obtained a GED. Even though they may not need a degree to get a good job and become successful education is still very important. Jack and Kelly have both been to rehab multiple times, just like dear old dad. The family seems to have gotten it together, but the fact that it happened at all means that Ozzy and Sharon's parenting skills weren't on point. Nobody's saying that Michael is a horrible parent, but he has serious issues, strange thought process, and all around bad habits that will directly and negatively affect his children someday if he doesn't get himself together. As far as Madonna is concerned she cleaned her act up when she had kids and she wasn't going through destructive personal problems

And he hung his baby out of a window stories high. I don't care if it was a "mistake"; it says a lot about his mental state and it was fucking stupid and dangerous.

squiddyren said:

y'know thats true. but (and i know i'm bout to sound reeeeel fammy but...) if ur to condemn mike (and condemnation is just) for danglin the kid out the window, condemn the folks that throw their babys in the air and catch em. condemn the folks that let their kids sit in the window. condemn the folks that don't plug up the sockets with them child safety things. condemn...

Well whoever brought up Madonna's kids did so because her parenting skills are never questioned. Should they be? Not really, but if you put it under the microscope as much as people do MJ's you could come up with a few questionable instances of Lourdes acting like a spolied brat backstage at TOTP ("I said DIET COKE, MORON" -- allegedly ); bringing her on stage at the MTV VMA's 3 minutes before she tongued Britney & Christina; leaving her alone in a car surrounded by paparazzi and no tinted windows.

Isolated incidents that aren't questioned or played on the news over and over again. Not as bad as the balcony "dangling" but NEVER brought up or questioned at all. Why? Because almost all parents do some dumbass things once in a while without thinking about the 100% safety of their kids.

I mean, there are things I don't agree with like allegedly keeping the kids away from Debbie, or vice versa--- or maybe not even getting the damn message that she wants to see them because he surrounds himself with shady dudes in it for themselves. Then again I've heard and read wonderful first-hand accounts of how MJ is with his children. It's not for you or I to judge, and since he's had 2 or 3 visits from the DCFS after those self-promoting "complaints" filed by media whores like Gloria "I'm a tree frog" Allred, resulting in no action taken, I'd assume that everything's OK.

Well, what bothers me even more than the baby-dangling is that he has three kids of his own yet instead of taking care of them he has sleepovers with other children that aren't his own whilst they're often simply left in the care of nannies as he carries on such socially inappropriate practices. How immoral could you get?

And the sleepovers, not trying to jack the thread with OT-ness, are what's leading me to believe he may have been guilty now. You'd think, after being accused the first time and going through absolute hell (being scrutinized by the media and public day in and day out, being emotionally drained, having his penis photographed by cops, etc, etc.), he'd have moved on with his life and kept away from kids.. maybe even sold Neverland. But pedophiles have a compulsive disorder-- they can't stay away from children. And what did our hapless pop hero do after living a nightmare and paying off an enormous amount of money to his accuser on the eve of his penis photos and Jordy's drawing being submitted into court? He continued having his slumber parties and was then accused again twice (once where he supposedly paid the accuser $10 million in secret, and once where.. well, what just ended recently). Go figure.

Yes, I'm aware of all the slimy underlying details of both primary cases, how they both seemed like set-ups by grifters, the second set of whom couldn't keep their stories straight, how Tom Sneddon has a vendetta against Michael, all that other interesting information from the '94 GQ article about the first case, etc., etc... but there is still too much damn smoke for there to be no fire. I don't care how famous he is and how much of an easy target he is; if he were totally innocent all his life, there wouldn't be so many stories, rumors, and public allegations flying left and right. You guys believe what you want to, but I believe that not EVERYBODY can be lying.

Especially considering he's been accused multiple times of molesting boys and then come to find out he not only had two books locked up together in a cabinet both centering around boys and depicting them in the nude, but that he fits every classic profile of a pedophile to a massive tee.

Erm, did you even follow the trial? Was there any evidence or testimony from anyone to say he's had "sleepovers" in the last 12 years apart from 2 isolated supervised instances with the Grifter brothers with his friend Frank Cascio present?

And stop making up figures. Where in the hell did you change $2m to $10m?

There is no "classic profile" of a paedophile. I wonder how many padeos are anything like MJ at all. Most of them likely have access to kids but don't express any sort of infactuation with them *cough*Johnathan King.

And you would be seriously surprised how many blackmail plots against major celebrities get hushed up and disposed of hush hush in Hollywood. MJ just happens to have been outside the circle of the other major players for a long time with strange employees with very few legitimate connections to other stars. Therefore he can't do a "former Tom Cruise" and get PR people to threaten to take access away from 50 other big stars if they report a negative piece on him.

LOL @ the mention of the books. Have you ever seen Lord Of The Flies? That's CHILD PORN going by your logic. Art books, one a gift with an inscription from a fan, locked up in a cabinet with multiple other books amongst his library of thousands. Found in 1993, nothing of any sort like that in 2003, so he can't have replaced them later to "get off" on them My dad has a whole library of old books he inherited. Go through them hard enough and you might find one or two things that could be interpreted the wrong way in and among the rest. Do that with anyone and with a sick enoygh mind you could come to all sorts of conclusions.
[Edited 7/16/05 18:17pm]

Whether it was $10 million or $2 million, he gave his accusers checks rather than fighting to clear his name till the bitter end. Even if drawing it out with an actual trial may have just drained him even more, why did payoffs happen TWICE and why did he continue sleepovers (most notably with Gavin) after going through hell like that?

"Well, what's wrong with sharing your bed? The most luuvin' thing you can do.. is share your body with somebody."

And he said he sleeped on the floor.. I choose to believe that was just a quick way out of trouble after Gavin described their little get-togethers in the bedroom. And I used to think, "Well, if he's a child molester, then why did he not conceal his practices on national television?". Pedophiles like to keep it on the downlow, but they also like to try to angelically try to justify everything like he did. Plus, considering he obviously has issues, he probably wasn't thinking rationally.

And: http://www.mental-health-...?artID=273

There is "no hard, fast profile of a pedophile, but there are general characteristics".

Here's another one: http://www.childlures.com...lester.php

squiddyren said:

Francia didn't get 10, unless you're mentioning someonelse.




which means what, those are the same books they got in 93. Profiles and suspicions
and lovely catch phrases like





and my favorite


is all there is, put that against a psychiatrist who was involved with all three kids, plus one of the biggest false molestation claims in the countries history, plus the Pelicano tapes, plus two grand juries not finding enough evidence in 93/94 to indict MJ. Francia taking tabloid money, lil' francia denying claims.....plus the shit load you glossed over.....

The Arvizo's have still not asked or sought for money..... Which is something I can't say about Evan Chandler is it.
[Edited 7/16/05 18:35pm]

If blagging about something on international TV is what you call "keeping it on the downlow" I'd hate to be your neighbour when you host a wild party!

Do you even KNOW what Jason Francia's accusations were? He denied it all. He was lied to on tape by the police (check out the transcript of what they told him about Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman being on death's door thanks to being molested by MJ!!). He never even made an accusation when his mother settled that suit with MJ and the help of Sony in 1995, after helping to "write" that now illegal book by Victor Guitirrez (who fled the country to avoid paying MJ bearly $3m once Michael sued and won). Jason Francia said on the stand that he never knew his chamber-maid mother was a multi-millionaire until the week prior to being on the stand "Oh no, he tickled me "inappropriately" twice, one year apart from eachother... he gave me $100 for getting good grades in school".

Lord knows what prosecutors would have done if they called all those local children selling lemonade in the streets that Michael bought glasses from for $100 each.

Many victims of sexual violation will never immediately, if never at all, admit what happened to them.

And, for me personally, what it all comes to down to is: He gets accused once, goes through a nightmare, and instead of keeping well away from kids or ever fighting to clear his name (at least up until this point), he just gave out payoffs and continued to have sleepovers.

EDIT: No, those books he had are not "child porn by my definition", but "The Boy: A Photographic Essay" is a book commonly found in the possession of pedophiles, and it was reportedly of 90% nude boys ("But it's a rare collector's item!", a person with an MJ avatar will say). So he had these two books both centering around young boys, has gotten accused of molesting them several times, also had photos of (semi-) naked toddlers mixed in with some of his porn, and never chose to clear his name and chose to make payoffs up until this recent point.
[Edited 7/16/05 18:48pm]

What about Evan Chandler's 1996 lawsuit wanting to release an album called EVANStory?

Stan Katz being involved in the false McMartin abuse case? That other psychiatrist with a dodgy past who committed suicide? Mathis Abrams being used as a tool to report the Chandler allegations by way of ethical obligation but being given NO follow-up appointments with the kid and all others being attached to the civil lawyers.

I wonder why Janet Arvizo claimed she only found out that her son had made accusations in September 2003, while she had already given police statements about her "kidnapping" in July? If her son reported it all through Stan Katz, why no follow-up appointments? Psychiatrists don't have a magic button to get kids to accuse people of sexual abuse in 2 sessions and then never have to be seen again. And if the parent is not the person being accused, they'd be told. Why go to the police 3 months after the visit to Feldman and Katz? How would a mother not know or be involved in any of this? Oh right, it was about their cheap stolen furniture :crazy:

MJ hasn't been the best dad.

The kids at least look healty whoever the father might be, I wish the best for them. Let's hope the veil phase is over

The girl kinda looks like it could be madonna's daughter.

Seriously,m you're barking up the wrong tree with this pay-off/settlement shite. We all know that in 93 the motions were denied about delaying the civil case. Thankfully that's the law now, but it wasn't back then. And can you IMAGINE having some maid who had already admitted to lying to the tabloids for money in the Grand Jury, suddenly try to cash in just as you're ready to release an album that your record company has spend millions and millions of dollars promoting already.

Yes, thinking about it in regular civillian terms, you'd fight to clear your name. But when your name and image at that time is worth a good hundred million dollars of revenue for an entire corporation, and that corporation urges you to shut it up and settle some bizarre "tickling" story that hadn't even emerged yet, but the mother was filing lawsuits for money for herslef and not her son--- well that's according to Jason who claims he never saw any money. I wonder what Blanca did with it or why she even asked for the cash in the first place if it wasn't for her son.

lilgish said:

thats what i thought. and when rocco had long hair a couple of years ago he looked like prince

one of the things that dosent make sense is if michael was a peadophile, why would he only molest 3 boys on one occasion each, in all his 30 years of being an adult. contrary to some peoples beliefs peadophiles dont just target weak families who have questionable backgrounds, they target ANYONE they get gets there hands on, cos they cant control themselves. if michael was a peadophile i would expect way more victims then just 3 with the amount of kids he has hung around with his entire life. of course a peadophile could only molest three kids in their life but they would do it for long periods of time, michaels accusers only claim a few times. when you look at it michael he is nothing like the 'classic peadophile'
[Edited 7/16/05 20:32pm]

hellomoto said:

I'm glad you speak for all pedophiles, but seriously, read some more criminology and you'll find out the picture is much different.
[Edited 7/16/05 20:33pm]

i just dont understand how mj fans can support this man's horrible personal decisions.....

i love prince but i still think he can be a fucked up man...

heck, i love wendy and lisa more and wish wendy would just shut the fuck up sometimes...

but the mj fans? "oh, michael is a good father..." "those are mj's kids"...


FUCKING WAKE THE FUCK UP PEOPLE!!!!!

dag said:

PLEASE be aware that multiple surgeries DO NOT change ones GENES!! You can't possibly see the old, pre-surgery Micheal Jackson in ANY of these children.

i dont see how you can say they are or ain't his kids. the picture on this post is like one of the only ones any of us have seen of them without their halloween costumes on and regardless of how crazy mike is, i would hesitate to believe that mike would want kids with his own dna. arguements like "they too white" or "they dont have black features" dont really hold much water between the truth. whether they are his kids or not, none of us know for sure and arguing about features, skin colors and molestation acusations aint gonna change it.