popgodazipa said:

Explain that comment out.

TheCrucialExperience said:

Rakim really rasied the bar in terms of lyrical content, but that is about it. He did not have a big impact on the business side and was pretty much the just the best at his particular style of rap. Can't say he actually started a movement.

popgodazipa said:

Yeah, you can. He was the first to introduce Black Power rap and Black Nationalism through his Islamic faith. Hell, even his FLOW was a movement.

TheCrucialExperience said:

He was not the first to speak black nationalism in his music, but I'll give you that. And what was the impact of that, didn't last too long. I put him in my top 3 or 4 because his lyrical content was so far and above his time and still remains the gold standard upon which other rappers are judged.

Still if you look at the 3 I have above him JAY-Z, NWA and TUPAC, their impact, flow and style is STILL being duplicated, recreated, marketed today.

Jay Z was not always my number one, but he has steadly made his way to the top through his diverse accomplishments and many rap first. Without JAY there is no BIGGIE, at least not the one we have grown to love, believe it!

popgodazipa said:

Sorry, you have to go back further than 10 years. You have to go back to the Rakims, Schooly D's (Eazy and Cube got their early flow), Ice-T's, Cool J's, etc. to know that their flow and styles were duplicated, recreated and marketed by the very MC's you claim are in the top 3.

No WAY Jigga's No. 1.

Top 10, easy.

Top 5, arguable but legit.

No. 1? Uh-uh, player.



Jigga has a distinguished track record, but as for firsts, I don't recall them. List them.



I don't believe it. Prove it. I can be swayed, but in light of the fact Jigga's comments on B.I.G. lead me to believe the EXACT OPPOSITE is true, I need some proof from you.

AOL.com, the upmost autority in Hip Hop. These lists never do justice in my eyes, so fuck 'em. That said, I find it funny they have a top 11 list. Is that so they could include Token,er um, Eminem? I mean, OK so what if he didn't the Top 10 (he ain't supposed to), but don't go making a bonus spot so you can add your Graet White Dope.

namepeace said:

If you want to see the impact of Jay Z on BIG, listen to Ready to Die (not the remixes) then Reasonable Doubt. Big's entire style changed after that and is evidenced on Life After Death. Their was no Crystal poppin in hip-hop before Jay

A few of Jay's first

First rap artist with a sneaker deal(Reebok)

First rap solo rap act to sell out Madison Square Garden

First rap artist featured in a prime time major network interview
(60 minutes)

First rap owner to own (partial ownership) a NBA franchise

Not to mention the Armadale Vodka distribution deal(a first), Rocawear (Russell was first but he's no artist and puffy was next,ditto), and Ceo of Def Jam promotion. Hip-hop is more than rhymes and flow, and your number one must reflect that. Add these accomplishments with his music and you have your pound for pound champion of hip-hop no question.

popgodazipa said:

Uh-uh, player, you made a good and meritorious argument, but your motion is denied.

First, we're talking about hip-hop artistry, not commercial or entrepreneurial prowess. As far as the commercial/media accomplishments, Jigga has no peer. But as for the instant question, artistic quality and impact, "So?"

(RUN-DMC had a sneaker deal with Adidas LONG before Jigga.)

(Jigga didn't sell out MSG on his own. In reality, he was a headliner. He had a lot of friends with him, including Bey, his girlfriend, who had the hottest song in America at the time.)

In any event, Raekwon was hollerin' about the same things Jigga was hollerin' about in Reasonable Doubt in '96 . . . 1 full before Jigga, in the most slept-on but most influential record of the pre-bling era, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx.

Ready To Die made Biggie a legend. Life After Death only cemented it. Sure, Biggie and Jigga fed off of each other. But to say that Biggie got his whole post-Ready style from Jigga is ridiculous. I don't hear that in "Ten Crack Commandments," I don't hear that in "My Downfall," I don't hear that in "Kick in the Door," I don't hear it in "F--- You Tonight." I see your point, some, when I listen to "I Got A Story To Tell" and "Mo Money." But not as far as you take it.

Listen to your boy Jigga himself.

http://www.mtv.com/bands/...dex2.jhtml




In fact, Jigga wouldn't have been as big as he was if Christopher Wallace was still walking God's green earth. This isn't to say Jigga isn't a first-ballot Hall of Famer, a top-5 MC, etc.

But your case has some holes, constituting . . .

okay, you made me say it . . .

Reasonable Doubt.

Now the deal DMC had with Adidas was an advertisement deal, same as jigga, but they did not have a shoe deal in which they were a part of the design, marketing and promotion. But I follow your other points. In my opinion it is not good enough to just rap and be given the crown of the G.O.A.T. Big had 2 albums, both classics mind you, but that's it. The fact that he is in the top ten at all is incredible. That is the same reason why NAS never makes my top ten and shouldn't make yours.

Enough about my list, let's see yours.

popgodazipa said:

RUN-DMC, as I recall, also had an apparel and shoe deal. I remember cause in High School people were rockin' the Run-DMC jackets, sweatsuits, etc. But we're splitting hairs at this point. You make good points.

To me, quantity doesn't supersede quality. Biggie would still be running things but for the unfortunate circumstances of getting shot and killed.

Anyway. My top "11".

1. Rakim
2. KRS-ONE
3. Chuck D
4. Notorious B.I.G.
5. Jay-Z
6. Common (Sense)
7. LL Cool J
8. Mos Def
9. Kelvin Mercer a/k/a Plug One, De La Soul
10. Tupac
11. MF Doom

The various factors I weigh, each of which weigh differently with each individual: a) lyrical skill and content, b) innovation, c) scope of influence, d) longevity of career, e) amount of classic hits, and f) commercial success.

For example, Rakim is the most influential MC in the history of the genre. He was like Charlie Parker of hip-hop. So that takes precedence. At the bottom of the list, MF Doom is like Ornette Coleman. He's taking a well-developed art form into completely different areas, and he's been making quality records for a decade and a half.