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PrintableNeoSoulScribe said: sosgemini said: yes they were.. Please. Maybe in the minds of people that don't know what R&B is, but to TRUE R&Bers NKOTB wasn't even CONSIDERED FOR ONE HALF SECOND an R&B group. says the person with NeoSoul in his/her screen name... 
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meow85 said: Hotlegs said: I'm sorry but the NKOB were never a R&B band. To say that NKOB is R&B is like saying that Ozzy Osborne is an Soul singer which is an invalid statement. So where is the line drawn? Because a lot of R&B groups are just as manufactured and plastic as a lot of boybands are, and a lot of boybands have the same tight harmonies and rhythms that a lot of R&B groups do. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't about colour. (and I hate bringing that up, because I sincerely hope it isn't, and people who feel the need to make colour an issue where it shouldn't be are just fucking annoying) I've seen boybands with black members called R&B when they clearly weren't, and R&B groups with white members called boybands when they clearly weren't. The best example I can think of is a few years ago, when pop music had infected even the local music scene. One obviously "pop" group with black and native members was refered to by the local press as an R&B group. Another, more R&B-centric group with 3 white and one asian member were called a boyband. Was it a colour issue? I don't know. 
[Edited 6/18/05 15:48pm] Name a manufactured R&B group. In other words, name an R&B group that was "thrown together" just to make money and not real music. And I've never seen any Black boy bands because they weren't bands but groups. Maybe that's the difference. The white kids called themselves bands while the Black kids called them groups. And what Black boy band/group do you know that is a POP group/band? Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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At first they did get some play on black radio. I remember the original KDAY 1580 AM in Los Angeles used to play "The Right Stuff."
My brother was (and is still) into them. He has their debut album and the "Hangin' Tough" VHS tape. Overall, with the first record they had borderline R&B cred. When the NKOTB dolls came in, that's when it went out the window. | |
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sosgemini said: Hotlegs said: I'm sorry but the NKOB were never a R&B band. To say that NKOB is R&B is like saying that Ozzy Osborne is an Soul singer which is an invalid statement. your telling me Please Dont Go Girl was not an r&b song? The Right Stuff? them songs were straight arse copies of New Edition....so either New Edition isnt r&b or NKOB is..... sure, later down the road they went Pop....but at the begining they were just a copy of NE... so whats it gonna be? Yeah, but 2 songs in the R&B vibe don't make you an R&B group. That's like saying Queen Latifah is a jazz singer now. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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NeoSoulScribe said: sosgemini said: your telling me Please Dont Go Girl was not an r&b song? The Right Stuff? them songs were straight arse copies of New Edition....so either New Edition isnt r&b or NKOB is..... sure, later down the road they went Pop....but at the begining they were just a copy of NE... so whats it gonna be? Yeah, but 2 songs in the R&B vibe don't make you an R&B group. That's like saying Queen Latifah is a jazz singer now. New kids paved the way for "typical boybands" who mixed pop hooks with rnb beats. like B2K, immature to white acts like nsync. [Edited 6/18/05 18:01pm] | |
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thesexofit said: NeoSoulScribe said: Please. Maybe in the minds of people that don't know what R&B is, but to TRUE R&Bers NKOTB wasn't even CONSIDERED FOR ONE HALF SECOND an R&B group. I know u wont answer me, but how do u define rnb? Lets not get into a colour debate now. [Edited 6/18/05 17:55pm] Why would I not answer you? Question is, can you handle my answer? R&B is soul music for the most part. A distinctive sound: A cool bassline; A certain vibe; Soulful; Part Rhythm; Part Blues; All cool. Now, if you think NKOTB had Soul or Blues in their sound then I'll pray for you. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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sosgemini said: NeoSoulScribe said: Please. Maybe in the minds of people that don't know what R&B is, but to TRUE R&Bers NKOTB wasn't even CONSIDERED FOR ONE HALF SECOND an R&B group. says the person with NeoSoul in his/her screen name...
You got that right. You better recognize I knows my shit when it comes to R&B and NKOTB was NEVER considered R&B by ANYONE that TRULY knows R&B. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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NeoSoulScribe said: meow85 said: So where is the line drawn? Because a lot of R&B groups are just as manufactured and plastic as a lot of boybands are, and a lot of boybands have the same tight harmonies and rhythms that a lot of R&B groups do. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't about colour. (and I hate bringing that up, because I sincerely hope it isn't, and people who feel the need to make colour an issue where it shouldn't be are just fucking annoying) I've seen boybands with black members called R&B when they clearly weren't, and R&B groups with white members called boybands when they clearly weren't. The best example I can think of is a few years ago, when pop music had infected even the local music scene. One obviously "pop" group with black and native members was refered to by the local press as an R&B group. Another, more R&B-centric group with 3 white and one asian member were called a boyband. Was it a colour issue? I don't know.
[Edited 6/18/05 15:48pm] Name a manufactured R&B group. In other words, name an R&B group that was "thrown together" just to make money and not real music. And I've never seen any Black boy bands because they weren't bands but groups. Maybe that's the difference. The white kids called themselves bands while the Black kids called them groups. And what Black boy band/group do you know that is a POP group/band? im curious..how old are you? EnVogue is the best example of this....TLC an even better one... and New Edition was thrown together just the same as NKOTB..... Space for sale... | |
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thesexofit said: NeoSoulScribe said: Yeah, but 2 songs in the R&B vibe don't make you an R&B group. That's like saying Queen Latifah is a jazz singer now. New kids paved the way for "typical boybands" who mixed pop hooks with rnb beats. like B2K, immature to white acts like nsync. [Edited 6/18/05 18:01pm] Wrong. New Edition did. And THEY got it from J5. Keep it real. New Kids was a knockoff of N.E. for the white audience, but they stole the whole vibe from N.E. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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NeoSoulScribe said: thesexofit said: New kids paved the way for "typical boybands" who mixed pop hooks with rnb beats. like B2K, immature to white acts like nsync. [Edited 6/18/05 18:01pm] Wrong. New Edition did. And THEY got it from J5. Keep it real. New Kids was a knockoff of N.E. for the white audience, but they stole the whole vibe from N.E. yet NE is an r&b band and NKOTB is not? cant have it both ways bub... Space for sale... | |
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sosgemini said: NeoSoulScribe said: Name a manufactured R&B group. In other words, name an R&B group that was "thrown together" just to make money and not real music. And I've never seen any Black boy bands because they weren't bands but groups. Maybe that's the difference. The white kids called themselves bands while the Black kids called them groups. And what Black boy band/group do you know that is a POP group/band? im curious..how old are you? EnVogue is the best example of this....TLC an even better one... and New Edition was thrown together just the same as NKOTB..... Old enough to know R&B damn well. And you listed En Vogue and TLC as what? Groups thrown together to just cash in on a craze to make money? How? Not even. En Vogue had TRUE TALENT with the pipes to back it up. TLC was original and helped usher in the hip-hop/soul era and N.E. was the prototype to which the boy bands followed. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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sosgemini said: NeoSoulScribe said: Wrong. New Edition did. And THEY got it from J5. Keep it real. New Kids was a knockoff of N.E. for the white audience, but they stole the whole vibe from N.E. yet NE is an r&b band and NKOTB is not? cant have it both ways bub... N.E sang R&B and got PICKED UP by pop stations. NKOTB sang POP songs, and their couple of R&B-ish cuts got picked up by Black radio. Big difference. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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I honestly can't believe that this is even being debated. Just shows you how little people know about certain types of music. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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NeoSoulScribe said: sosgemini said: yet NE is an r&b band and NKOTB is not? cant have it both ways bub... N.E sang R&B and got PICKED UP by pop stations. NKOTB sang POP songs, and their couple of R&B-ish cuts got picked up by Black radio. Big difference. Come on "candy girl" is more rnb then "the right stuff"? I thought rnb mixed pop melodies with hiphop beats? New kids did that on the uptempos. Thought "step by step" shouldn't count I guess, The strings make it too white for the blakc audeince | |
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NeoSoulScribe said: sosgemini said: im curious..how old are you? EnVogue is the best example of this....TLC an even better one... and New Edition was thrown together just the same as NKOTB..... Old enough to know R&B damn well. And you listed En Vogue and TLC as what? Groups thrown together to just cash in on a craze to make money? How? Not even. En Vogue had TRUE TALENT with the pipes to back it up. TLC was original and helped usher in the hip-hop/soul era and N.E. was the prototype to which the boy bands followed. please define "real music"? your original question posed was as followed: Name a manufactured R&B group. In other words, name an R&B group that was "thrown together" just to make money and not real music.
now, your "real music" qualifier is very subjective....there are many many people here at the org (and in the real world) who would consider En Vogue and TLC as lite-weight fluff... your posting as if your opinion is obsolute..keep in mind that it only applies to *you* and you wont find yourself getting so wound up over trivial things.... Space for sale... | |
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thesexofit said: NeoSoulScribe said: N.E sang R&B and got PICKED UP by pop stations. NKOTB sang POP songs, and their couple of R&B-ish cuts got picked up by Black radio. Big difference. Come on "candy girl" is more rnb then "the right stuff"? I thought rnb mixed pop melodies with hiphop beats? New kids did that on the uptempos. Thought "step by step" shouldn't count I guess, The strings make it too white for the blakc audeince Candy Girl was ripped straight from "ABC" by J5. Now, are you saying J5 is pop? And who told you R&B was hip hop/pop melodies? LOL! R&B's been around WAY before Hip Hop and pop showed up. You need to get you some better sources, homey. Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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sosgemini said:[quote] NeoSoulScribe said: please define "real music"? your original question posed was as followed: Name a manufactured R&B group. In other words, name an R&B group that was "thrown together" just to make money and not real music.
now, your "real music" qualifier is very subjective....there are many many people here at the org (and in the real world) who would consider En Vogue and TLC as lite-weight fluff... your posting as if your opinion is obsolute..keep in mind that it only applies to *you* and you wont find yourself getting so wound up over trivial things.... You're right, it is all subjective but there are some people who don't know music as well as others so their subjectivity is meaningless. Harsh, but true. TLC is considered real music, mainly because they had LaFace behind them and I don't know ANYBODY who doesn't consider En Vogue REAL MUSIC. And who said I'm all wound up? Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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NeoSoulScribe said: meow85 said: So where is the line drawn? Because a lot of R&B groups are just as manufactured and plastic as a lot of boybands are, and a lot of boybands have the same tight harmonies and rhythms that a lot of R&B groups do. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't about colour. (and I hate bringing that up, because I sincerely hope it isn't, and people who feel the need to make colour an issue where it shouldn't be are just fucking annoying) I've seen boybands with black members called R&B when they clearly weren't, and R&B groups with white members called boybands when they clearly weren't. The best example I can think of is a few years ago, when pop music had infected even the local music scene. One obviously "pop" group with black and native members was refered to by the local press as an R&B group. Another, more R&B-centric group with 3 white and one asian member were called a boyband. Was it a colour issue? I don't know.
[Edited 6/18/05 15:48pm] Name a manufactured R&B group. In other words, name an R&B group that was "thrown together" just to make money and not real music. And I've never seen any Black boy bands because they weren't bands but groups. Maybe that's the difference. The white kids called themselves bands while the Black kids called them groups. And what Black boy band/group do you know that is a POP group/band? Imajin, Code Red, and Next all fall into those categories, as does the local so-called R&B group I mentioned, 4Real. Whether you want to call them boybands or manufactured R&B is up to you, there's really no difference. But arguing over whether they're called boybands or R&B groups is silly. It's just tossing around semantics to distract from the actual discussion, which is where, how, and why there is a line drawn. They're all groups -the difference in terms comes from the industry, not the individuals in the groups. Everybody knows that most boybands don't actually play instruments. (Some do though -unless you're trying to tell me The Moffats and Hanson aren't boybands by virtue of their drums and guitars?) It should also be noted that while the audition process is a common practice in forming boybands, it's not always the case. Some boybands formed of their own volition, and a rare few were formed through a combination of audition and already being friends and singing together. The same holds true in the R&B world. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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NeoSoulScribe said: thesexofit said: Come on "candy girl" is more rnb then "the right stuff"? I thought rnb mixed pop melodies with hiphop beats? New kids did that on the uptempos. Thought "step by step" shouldn't count I guess, The strings make it too white for the blakc audeince Candy Girl was ripped straight from "ABC" by J5. Now, are you saying J5 is pop? And who told you R&B was hip hop/pop melodies? LOL! R&B's been around WAY before Hip Hop and pop showed up. You need to get you some better sources, homey. No I mean modern rnb, not that 50's and 60's stuff, is a hybrid of many things. Would u not say sam cooke was pop, but had soul too? No point comparing sam with NKOTB, but both sang love songs, both wanted to appeal to pop audeinces. | |
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meow85 said: NeoSoulScribe said: Name a manufactured R&B group. In other words, name an R&B group that was "thrown together" just to make money and not real music. And I've never seen any Black boy bands because they weren't bands but groups. Maybe that's the difference. The white kids called themselves bands while the Black kids called them groups. And what Black boy band/group do you know that is a POP group/band? Imajin, Code Red, and Next all fall into those categories, as does the local so-called R&B group I mentioned, 4Real. Fall into what categories? Manufactured? Or Black groups considered Pop? Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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thesexofit said: NeoSoulScribe said: Candy Girl was ripped straight from "ABC" by J5. Now, are you saying J5 is pop? And who told you R&B was hip hop/pop melodies? LOL! R&B's been around WAY before Hip Hop and pop showed up. You need to get you some better sources, homey. No I mean modern rnb, not that 50's and 60's stuff, is a hybrid of many things. Would u not say sam cooke was pop, but had soul too? No point comparing sam with NKOTB, but both sang love songs, both wanted to appeal to pop audeinces. If I could supply the shovel, I would love to see Sam Cooke get out of his grave and come "POP" you over the head with that supplied shovel for even THINKING he was a pop singer! LOL! Silent shouts, I hope you hear
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NeoSoulScribe said: thesexofit said: No I mean modern rnb, not that 50's and 60's stuff, is a hybrid of many things. Would u not say sam cooke was pop, but had soul too? No point comparing sam with NKOTB, but both sang love songs, both wanted to appeal to pop audeinces. If I could supply the shovel, I would love to see Sam Cooke get out of his grave and come "POP" you over the head with that supplied shovel for even THINKING he was a pop singer! LOL!  | |
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NeoSoulScribe said: thesexofit said: No I mean modern rnb, not that 50's and 60's stuff, is a hybrid of many things. Would u not say sam cooke was pop, but had soul too? No point comparing sam with NKOTB, but both sang love songs, both wanted to appeal to pop audeinces. If I could supply the shovel, I would love to see Sam Cooke get out of his grave and come "POP" you over the head with that supplied shovel for even THINKING he was a pop singer! LOL! Yeah sam got soul no doubt. But even sam knew he changed his roots as a gospel singer and try and get some white money as it were by going pop. Good for him. But its still pop. Pop as in popular music and popular subject matter, love and most importantly, pop production and values, like being melodic, catchy and inoffensive. | |
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thesexofit said: NeoSoulScribe said: If I could supply the shovel, I would love to see Sam Cooke get out of his grave and come "POP" you over the head with that supplied shovel for even THINKING he was a pop singer! LOL! Yeah sam got soul no doubt. But even sam knew he changed his roots as a gospel singer and try and get some white money as it were by going pop. Good for him. But its still pop. Pop as in popular music and popular subject matter, love and most importantly, pop production and values, like being melodic, catchy and inoffensive.  | |
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NeoSoulScribe said: meow85 said: Imajin, Code Red, and Next all fall into those categories, as does the local so-called R&B group I mentioned, 4Real. Fall into what categories? Manufactured? Or Black groups considered Pop? Both. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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thesexofit said: NeoSoulScribe said: If I could supply the shovel, I would love to see Sam Cooke get out of his grave and come "POP" you over the head with that supplied shovel for even THINKING he was a pop singer! LOL! Yeah sam got soul no doubt. But even sam knew he changed his roots as a gospel singer and try and get some white money as it were by going pop. Good for him. But its still pop. Pop as in popular music and popular subject matter, love and most importantly, pop production and values, like being melodic, catchy and inoffensive. Since Neo wants to play semantics, I guess it's my turn. The term pop originally was an abbreviation of "popular music". I.E. anything that sells well. Let's see, that means Prince has been pop at varying times, Boyz II Men is pop, Marilyn Manson is pop, Rolling Stones are pop, Elvis was pop, KISS was pop, Hendrix was pop, the Beatles were pop..... Any act that gained commercial succes -mainstream popularity, that is -at any point in time, regardless of quality or lack thereof, is pop. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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meow85 said: thesexofit said: Yeah sam got soul no doubt. But even sam knew he changed his roots as a gospel singer and try and get some white money as it were by going pop. Good for him. But its still pop. Pop as in popular music and popular subject matter, love and most importantly, pop production and values, like being melodic, catchy and inoffensive. Since Neo wants to play semantics, I guess it's my turn. The term pop originally was an abbreviation of "popular music". I.E. anything that sells well. Let's see, that means Prince has been pop at varying times, Boyz II Men is pop, Marilyn Manson is pop, Rolling Stones are pop, Elvis was pop, KISS was pop, Hendrix was pop, the Beatles were pop..... Any act that gained commercial succes -mainstream popularity, that is -at any point in time, regardless of quality or lack thereof, is pop. That's your definition. Unfortunately, some of us like a definition that isn't quite so broad. [Edited 6/18/05 18:39pm] | |
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VoicesCarry said: meow85 said: Since Neo wants to play semantics, I guess it's my turn. The term pop originally was an abbreviation of "popular music". I.E. anything that sells well. Let's see, that means Prince has been pop at varying times, Boyz II Men is pop, Marilyn Manson is pop, Rolling Stones are pop, Elvis was pop, KISS was pop, Hendrix was pop, the Beatles were pop..... Any act that gained commercial succes -mainstream popularity, that is -at any point in time, regardless of quality or lack thereof, is pop. That's your definition. Unfortunately, some of us like a definition that isn't quite so broad. [Edited 6/18/05 18:39pm] Voices is ashamed at liking pop.  | |
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thesexofit said: VoicesCarry said: That's your definition. Unfortunately, some of us like a definition that isn't quite so broad. [Edited 6/18/05 18:39pm] Voices is ashamed at liking pop.
No, I'm ashamed to use a definition that encompasses everything. Pop has taken on a completely different connotation since it was shortened from "popular" music. The average person is not going to go around calling Marilyn Manson "pop". | |
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VoicesCarry said: thesexofit said: Voices is ashamed at liking pop.
No, I'm ashamed to use a definition that encompasses everything. Pop has taken on a completely different connotation since it was shortened from "popular" music. The average person is not going to go around calling Marilyn Manson "pop". No, they're not. But he's as pop as Britney Spears, maybe even more so. What's wrong with calling it like it is? If "pop" means "popular" and an artist goes platinum, what else are they but pop? Pop, to me, refers not to the style of music, but to how it's presented towards the masses. If it's presented in a way that will garner attention and sales at that particular time, it will become "pop"ular. In 2004, Prince was pop as fuck. How are you going to argue that P.'s suddenly playing nice with the media combined with an album with just the "right" retro feel to it when the retro trend had returned with a vengeance wasn't a calculated move to make popular success? So it's all pop. Prince, Marilyn Manson, NKOTB, Nirvana, whoever. The whole lot of them. People need to learn to stop their knee-jerk negative reactions to the word and think about what it actually means. If you're at all popular, you're pop. Doesn't matter what you sound like. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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