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Thread started 06/14/05 8:08am

laurarichardso
n

The Slow Decline of R&B

According to this article RnB began to decline in 1972.


Rhythm and Bullshit?: The Slow Decline of R&B


by Mark Anthony Neal

Part One: Rhythm & Business, Cultural Imperialism and the Harvard Report

Yeah, I'm nostalgic: When Mary J. Blige first uttered the opening lines to "You Remind Me," it was about making sure that hip-hop remembered that R&B came from the same streets where crackheads roamed and the same tenement vestibules where drama went down on the regular. But as I listen to Mario's "Let Me Love You" for the 727th time, it is perhaps easy to suggest that R&B has lost its Soul, or that Clear Channel, Radio One (luv ya, Cathy!), AOL-Time Warner and Viacom -- a neo-plantation cabal if ever there was one -- ripped its heart out. Hip-hop may have sold out, but at least it has sold out on its own terms. R&B, on the other hand, has sold out on somebody else's, on a pop-chart paper chase. Truth be told, U(r)sher was nothing more than a soon-past-his-peak R&B singer before John Smith laced him with some crunk junk; Ray J could have sang the hook on "Yeah" and topped the pop charts. And now, 10 million units later, we want to act like Mr. Raymond is the second coming of Michael Jackson? I ain't willing to grant him the second coming of Bobby Brown. And it is not like we even knew Mr. Legend (in his own mind) and Ms. Queen of Crunk n' B were in the room, until some hip-hop act sanctioned their presence. But what ails contemporary R&B is not just a matter of the commercial success of John Legend -- and Amerie and Ciara and Mario. The current state of R&B comes not from a sudden decline, but a process more than 30 years in the making.


Does the soulless sound of contemporary R&B really have its roots in a controversial Harvard study from 1972, an alleged blueprint for the corporate theft of black culture's heritage? Or was it all Clive Davis's idea? The first of a three-part examination of how R&B became big business on the way to becoming irrelevant.

This story begins in 1972, when a few enterprising master's students at the Harvard Business School prepared a study, commissioned by one of Columbia's execs, detailing how the Columbia Records Group could better integrate the then largely independent black music industry into the mix. The now infamous Harvard Report -- officially known as "A Study of the Soul Music Environment" -- has often been referred to as a sinister blueprint aimed at arming a litany of "culture bandits" with the theoretical tools to return black culture to a neo-colonial state. There's no denying that this is exactly the situation we're staring at now, but it has nothing to do with the Harvard Report. What those MBA students articulated was a no-brainer marketing plan, informed by the commercial success of Motown and the cynical (though not mistaken) view that the Civil Rights "revolution" likely had more to do with the realities that black folk had disposable income and white folk consumed a hell of a lot of black popular culture than anything to do with real structural change in American society. In response to those expecting more sinister designs in the Harvard Report, David Sanjek rhetorically chimes, "why did feel the need to document what they should have already known?" (Rhythm and Business, 62). What Sanjek suggests is that eventually somebody in the music industry would have come up with their own version of the Harvard Report -- say, Clive Davis, who incidentally was a president at Columbia at the time that the report was commissioned. The point is, with or without the Harvard Report, the takeover was well underway.

Black music has always had a complicated relationship with big business. That this relationship has typically had little to do with actual music perhaps explains the often unbalanced quality of this thing we've come to call R&B. This complicated relationship also partly explains what exactly R&B is. The term R&B is essentially a shortened version of "Rhythm & Blues", but as a novice might discern, that which is called R&B bears little resemblance to the musical landscape created by Ruth Brown, Louis Jordan, Laverne Baker, Charles Brown and the Coasters. And perhaps that was the point. Musical innovations aside, R&B was essentially a marketing ploy that finally gained a significant foothold during the late 1970s. R&B was born out of competing logics -- record companies tried to negotiate the realities of black culture and identity within the history of race relations in America while trying at the same time to reach a wider audience of black consumers and white record buyers. As black radio needed mainstream advertisers to court the emerging black middle class (as much an ideology as a measurement of economic and social status) and mainstream record labels became fixated on crossing over black artists to white consumers, terms like Soul and Rhythm and Blues quickly became too black. The same terminology turnover occurred during the late 1970s when urban began to stand for radio stations that essentially programmed black music. As Nelson George explains, "Urban was supposedly a multicolored programming style tuned to the rhythms of America's crossfertilized big cities…. But more often, urban was black radio in disguise." (The Death of Rhythm and Blues, 159).

According to the "Harvard Report" black radio was strategically important to record companies because it provided "access to large and growing record buying public, namely, the Black consumer." The report is oblivious to the fact that the very birth of what was called "race music" in the 1930s was premised on selling goods and services to a uniquely defined audience, namely African-Americans constrained by Jim Crow segregation-an audience that might even buy a record or two, in the process of buying furniture, cleaning supplies and an insurance policy. Nevertheless, the report is cognizant of the growth of an emerging black middle class, one that would prove attractive not just to record companies but also advertisers eager to fuel black desires to consume the fetishes of a post-Civil Rights world. In the aftermath of centuries of struggle, exploitation and violence, some members of the black middle class often viewed their ability to consume widely throughout mainstream society as an emblem of the "freedoms" won during the Civil Rights struggle.

To get a sense of what this urbane blackness would look and feel like, think of the immensely popular early 1980s Colt 45 commercials featuring Billy Dee Williams. Twenty years later, no one really blinked an eye when poet Sonia Sanchez and Eric Benet used "smooth" R&B to hawk for an automobile maker. As R&B began to be viewed as the quintessence of upscale blackness, the more gritter aspects of black popular music --that which was, as Houston Baker Jr. describes it, "too blackly public" (as in embarrassing, like black folk eating watermelon in public) -- began to disappear from the program list of some urban radio outlets in the late 1970s. So-called Southern Soul -- the ZZ Hills, Denise LaSalles and Betty Wrights of the world -- was an example of the kind of music that vanished from urban radio. Though Southern Soul didn't disappear -- labels like Malaco and Ichiban continue to promote Southern Soul artists to this day -- the more bluesier aspects of its sound and its references to black southern culture were the very antithesis of the post-Civil Rights worldviews of many African-Americans. The popped-over P-Funk of Rick James -- one of the best selling black artists at the beginning of the post-Soul era --was emblematic of the brave new world of R&B. The challenge for record labels at this point was to come up with product to feed the R&B machine.

The Harvard Report was adamant that the Columbia Records Group should not attempt to purchase any of the prominent Soul labels (Motown, Atlantic, Stax) or poach from them any of their established artists. (CRG eventually purchased Stax, but only after the label was in serious decline.) What the report did advise was that CRG cultivate relationships with small independent labels, as was the case when CRG began a relationship with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. The product was Philadelphia International Records (PIR), and the impact of this groundbreaking relationship continues to reverberate 33 years later. As some critics -- notably John A. Jackson in A House on Fire: The Rise and Fall of Philadelphia Soul -- have observed, many of the Harvard Report's suggestions were already in play at Columbia, and the relationship with PIR is one such example. This brings us back to Clive Davis, the point-person on both the PIR and Stax deals. Dismissed from Columbia is 1973 for financial irregularities (some have linked his dismissal to our jumble word for the day: alopya), Davis had nonetheless instigated the distribution and creative-resource relationship with PIR that would become the defining model for relationships between large corporate labels and black music, making Davis himself arguably the most prominent figure in the story of R&B.

The language that the Harvard Report uses to describe the value of indie Soul labels is undisputable: "These small independents could provide a source of product, in the form of 'hot masters;' talent which could have national potential; experienced personnel…in the areas of promotion and production; and serve as a source of captive independent producers." Davis has claimed that he never read the Harvard Report, though it's clear that he would have been one of key figures that the authors of the report would have interviewed, and Davis may well have provided them with substantive info regarding the importance of indie labels. Regardless of the source, what the report details is the blueprint for the black boutique label -- essentially based on a model of neo-colonialism, where an imperialist power exploits the raw materials and talents of its satellites under the pretense that such satellites are autonomous. As Norman Kelley observes, "In classic colonialism, products were produced in raw periphery and sent back to the imperial motherland to be manufactured into commodities, then sold in metropolitan centers or back to the colonies. The outcome for the colony was stunted economic growth, as it was stripped of its ability to manufacture products for its own needs" (Rhythm and Business, 10). Looked at within the context of artistic production, the colonial model creates a context where black artistic production is mediated by a commodity culture more interested in "moving product" than cultivating art or developing artists, and then sold back to the masses as "art", in the process stunting creative development. The irony is that which could be defined as organic artistic expression is seen illegitimate by the masses, who have been programmed to accept corporate packaging as the real.

Clive Davis is probably less a sinister figure in the rise and fall of R&B and more the embodiment of the corporate hustler. But there's no denying that the very blueprint he outlined at Columbia became the most bankable strategy for R&B especially as he ascended to the leadership of Arista. For example, the most significant and successful black "boutique" labels of the 1990s, LaFace and Bad Boy Entertainment, were developed in Clive Davis's house. Despite the negative impact that the corporate co-opting of black culture has on black creativity, we're still left with the brilliance of the boutique model, as witnessed by the success of PIR. It all began with the production: the simple elegance of Billy Paul's "Me and Mrs. Jones" or Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes' "If You Don't Know Me By Now" or the glossy funk of The O'Jay's "I Love Music". The "Philly sound" (include Thom Bell and Mighty Three Publishing in this mix) became the soundtrack for an upscale blackness as far removed from the plantations of the South as it was from the factories of the Midwest. Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff were the real deal, and although they were not the sole innovators of this sound -- think of the symphonic landscapes of Gene Page or the string arrangements of Paul Riser -- the promotional and distribution muscle of Columbia allowed the duo to nationalize what was essentially a regional sound. By the end of the 1970s strains of the PIR could be heard in virtually every popular R&B song.

The boutique model was not necessarily about crossing R&B over to the mainstream, but rather positioning the larger corporate labels to better control the R&B market. As such, R&B artists were less compelled to compete with so-called pop artists. Although this meant that R&B artists had less access to resources -- particularly as the record industry went through a financial slump in the late 1970s -- it also created conditions where the R&B sound could develop without the additional pressure of attracting a wider audience. Very few soul artists made the transition to the R&B world. Notable examples are figures like Bobby Womack, whose Poet (1981) and Poet II (1984) represented the best work of his career and Diana Ross, whose Diana (1980), produced by Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards, represents the apex of her solo career. And then there's the case of Michael Jackson, who remade himself into an R&B artist on his groundbreaking Off the Wall (1979), three years after he sat at the feet of Gamble and Huff, who produced the Jackson's first CRG album after the Jackson 5's departure from Motown in 1975. Often lost in conversations about Jackson's emergence as the "King of Pop" is that he was cultivated in the R&B world -- along with such other singular black pop crossovers of the 1980s as Whitney Houston and Lionel Ritchie.

If there was one figure who defined the genius of R&B it was Luther Vandross, who with the release of his eponymous debut in 1981 became the genre's dominant artist. By coyly distancing himself from the black gospel vocal tradition, which grounded so much of the soul music of the 1960s and 1970s, Vandross cemented his appeal as the quintessential R&B singer. Specifically Vandross was trying to distinguish himself from generations of "shouters" such as gospel artists Joe Ligon (lead vocalist of the Mighty Clouds of Joy) and the late Archie Brownlee (of the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi) or soul vocalists like Wilson Pickett, the late Otis Redding and James Brown. As Jason King and others have suggested, Vandross was a student of various music traditions, notably black female vocalists of the 1960s (Dionne Warwick, The Bluebelles, Aretha Franklin), the Burt Bacharach and Hal David songbook, and the background-vocal stylings of the Sweet Inspirations. In addition, the lush orchestrations that figured so prominently in Vandross ballads -- he is the definitive balladeer of the last generation of popular singers -- suggested that he too was a fan of Gamble and Huff and Gene Page.

Still others such as Stephanie Mills, Frankie Beverly and Maze, Jeffrey Osborne, Anita Baker, Peobo Bryson, Atlantic Starr, Kashif, Loose Ends, Alexander O'Neal, The Whispers, Kenny "Babyface" Edmonds, and Chaka Khan (post Rufus) helped give R&B a cohesive sound in the early 1980s. As R&B was about attracting upscale "urban" audiences -- whether legitimate members of the black middle class or working class strivers -- it was by definition a genre targeted to mature audiences. As the 1980s progressed R&B was increasingly out of touch with a generation of black youth consumers, who felt little need to distance themselves from the realities of the Jim Crow era, especially as they faced down the venomous edge of the Reagan era. In real terms the R&B world was being challenged by the embryonic sounds of hip-hop for the attention (and disposable income) of "urban" audiences. A telling sign was the success of Chaka Khan's remake of Prince's "I Feel for You" (1984), which featured an opening rap by Melle Mel (technically the first hip-hop and R&B collaboration, though in my mind Jody Whatley's "Friends", which was blessed by Rakim, is more significant.) The song remains Khan's best-selling single. Khan's version of "I Feel for You" began a tenuous relationship between R&B and hip-hop, one which would finally earn hip-hop validation from the black mainstream and ultimately render R&B irrelevant.
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Reply #1 posted 06/14/05 8:11am

RipHer2Shreds

I've only read a few lines in there, but I'm already intrigued. I'm gonna read it later when I'm not at work. I do miss the 70s and 80s heyday of R&B/soul music. sad Thanks for the story!
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Reply #2 posted 06/14/05 8:25am

paisleypark4

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I miss the days of R&B not trying to be pop but staying true to it's core audience.

Well with the Music market going more torward the younger crowd, it was bound to happen. How many teen-20 year olds do u remember doing anything relevant in the 80's?


All the good artists to me today are in their late 20's-40 somethings nod
Straight Jacket Funk Affair
Album plays and love for vinyl records.
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Reply #3 posted 06/14/05 8:28am

LoveAlive

I think what happened to soul music is that once it began to sell and become viable in the market, it began to be looked at less as an art form and more as a commodity for marketing..therefore, it began to become saccharine and easily accessible thus rendering it bland and unrecognizable
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Reply #4 posted 06/14/05 8:36am

paisleypark4

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LoveAlive said:

I think what happened to soul music is that once it began to sell and become viable in the market, it began to be looked at less as an art form and more as a commodity for marketing..therefore, it began to become saccharine and easily accessible thus rendering it bland and unrecognizable


That's just what eye was thinkin when I heard Mario's new song.

Man I was playin some "Why Have I Lost You" at work last night..I wasnt even alive in those days and it gives me chills.


There is still soul in music today. U just have to find it! Listen to Mariah's "Circles" and "Mine Again" which brings back Minnie Riperton in so many ways.

Fantasia's "Free Yourself"

Lemme thinkin of some more...
Straight Jacket Funk Affair
Album plays and love for vinyl records.
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Reply #5 posted 06/14/05 8:47am

JackieBlue

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I first heard about the Harvard Report on an independent radio show. Very interesting to say the least.

paisleypark4 said:

Fantasia's "Free Yourself"


I am not a fan of Fantasia's but the first time I heard this song--before it was released--I liked it. I didn't even know it was her. There's just something about it. I see one listening that reads "featuring Missy". Did Missy produce it and/or sing background? It sounds like Missy's arrangement.
[Edited 6/14/05 8:48am]
[Edited 6/14/05 8:49am]
Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off
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Reply #6 posted 06/14/05 8:53am

namepeace

Well, the article is fascinating, no doubt.

However, I think the article may or may not take into account the expansion of R&B's boundaries, which have now, to my ears, more explicitly melded jazz and rock into its sound. I think of artists like Me'Shell Ndegeocello, who, IMHO, is the premier R&B artist out there today.

More later.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #7 posted 06/14/05 8:54am

paisleypark4

avatar

JackieBlue said:

I first heard about the Harvard Report on an independent radio show. Very interesting to say the least.

paisleypark4 said:

Fantasia's "Free Yourself"


I am not a fan of Fantasia's but the first time I heard this song--before it was released--I liked it. I didn't even know it was her. There's just something about it. I see one listening that reads "featuring Missy". Did Missy produce it and/or sing background? It sounds like Missy's arrangement.
[Edited 6/14/05 8:48am]
[Edited 6/14/05 8:49am]


She did produce that song nod
Good video too.
Straight Jacket Funk Affair
Album plays and love for vinyl records.
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Reply #8 posted 06/14/05 8:59am

JackieBlue

avatar

paisleypark4 said:



She did produce that song nod
Good video too.


Ahh, okay thanks!
Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off
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Reply #9 posted 06/14/05 9:12am

thesexofit

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What a surprise, the writer misses out newjack!
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Reply #10 posted 06/14/05 9:30am

laurarichardso
n

thesexofit said:

What a surprise, the writer misses out newjack!

-----
New Jack Swing did not last that long and it has had little or no impact on RnB.

None of the people who were doing are even doing anything today.
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Reply #11 posted 06/14/05 11:00am

mrwigglesdaw1r
m

Truth be told, U(r)sher was nothing more than a soon-past-his-peak R&B singer before John Smith laced him with some crunk junk; Ray J could have sang the hook on "Yeah" and topped the pop charts. And now, 10 million units later, we want to act like Mr. Raymond is the second coming of Michael Jackson? I ain't willing to grant him the second coming of Bobby Brown. lol

Looked at within the context of artistic production, the colonial model creates a context where black artistic production is mediated by a commodity culture more interested in "moving product" than cultivating art or developing artists, and then sold back to the masses as "art", in the process stunting creative development. The irony is that which could be defined as organic artistic expression is seen illegitimate by the masses, who have been programmed to accept corporate packaging as the real.
nod
That this relationship has typically had little to do with actual music perhaps explains the often unbalanced quality of this thing we've come to call R&B.
sad
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Reply #12 posted 06/14/05 11:17am

CinisterCee

laurarichardson said:

So-called Southern Soul -- the ZZ Hills, Denise LaSalles and Betty Wrights of the world -- was an example of the kind of music that vanished from urban radio. Though Southern Soul didn't disappear -- labels like Malaco and Ichiban continue to promote Southern Soul artists to this day -- the more bluesier aspects of its sound and its references to black southern culture were the very antithesis of the post-Civil Rights worldviews of many African-Americans.


This part rings true with me.
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Reply #13 posted 06/14/05 11:29am

theAudience

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Similar sentiments are expressed by Nelson George in...



...The Death of Rhythm & Blues


tA

peace Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm
"Ya see, we're not interested in what you know...but what you are willing to learn. C'mon y'all."
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Reply #14 posted 06/14/05 11:33am

dreamfactory31
3

We need a good r&b Michael Jackson record. Who better to save r&b than MJ?
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Reply #15 posted 06/14/05 12:00pm

namepeace

This article also comes at the issue from the perspective of the radio listener. Radio is pretty much a dead zone for creative, soulful, envelope-pushing music. Go to the internet or indie labels to look for it. It's out there. Support the many promising artists (big-names and otherwise) who are NOT getting the airplay by buying their records.

We were spoiled in the 60's and the 70's because the great R&B artists were also the best-selling R&B artists. That ain't the case anymore.

If R&B dies, it's because R&B fans don't care enough to support the artists that need us.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #16 posted 06/15/05 12:09am

DavidEye

namepeace said:

We were spoiled in the 60's and the 70's because the great R&B artists were also the best-selling R&B artists. That ain't the case anymore.



Very good point nod
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Reply #17 posted 06/15/05 12:23am

lilgish

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what about the new soul folks....Van Hunt...Maxwell...Jill Scott

is Mary J R&B? I really don't know her work past a few of the hits.
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Reply #18 posted 06/15/05 12:25am

whodknee

dreamfactory313 said:

We need a good r&b Michael Jackson record. Who better to save r&b than MJ?



Let MJ save MJ first. Besides, the current state of music is only symptomatic of the real problems here.
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Reply #19 posted 06/15/05 12:26am

kiss85

avatar

laurarichardson said:

thesexofit said:

What a surprise, the writer misses out newjack!

-----
New Jack Swing did not last that long and it has had little or no impact on RnB.

None of the people who were doing are even doing anything today.

Sorry, but I must disagree with ya there. Actually and surprisingly, Keith Sweat (an original New Jack Swinger) is still tryin to push his cart up the lane.....

He just released new music earlier last year, and he released a compilation of greatest hits that STILL sound good. hmph!

I mean, he may not be at the top of the charts now, but in his "heyday" I must say he DID make an impact on R&B, by not only makin some of the greatest slow jams, but he's even connected and somewhat influenced other artists of the same genre.
They did WHAT??!.... disbelief
Org Sci-Fi Association
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Reply #20 posted 06/15/05 2:31am

twink69

avatar

namepeace said:

This article also comes at the issue from the perspective of the radio listener. Radio is pretty much a dead zone for creative, soulful, envelope-pushing music. Go to the internet or indie labels to look for it. It's out there. Support the many promising artists (big-names and otherwise) who are NOT getting the airplay by buying their records.

We were spoiled in the 60's and the 70's because the great R&B artists were also the best-selling R&B artists. That ain't the case anymore.

If R&B dies, it's because R&B fans don't care enough to support the artists that need us.


I agree there is heaps of good r&b out there if you want it. there is as much good r&b and soul as there is rock and pop. People are always hating on r&b and hip hop because of the stuff they hear on radio. You don't see people say "rock" is dead beacuse of Good Charlotte, Limp Biskit, Hillary Duff, Dave Mathews band, Matchbox 20 and so on and so on. it's a double standard


.
[Edited 6/15/05 2:33am]
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Reply #21 posted 06/15/05 4:27am

laurarichardso
n

kiss85 said:

laurarichardson said:


-----
New Jack Swing did not last that long and it has had little or no impact on RnB.

None of the people who were doing are even doing anything today.

Sorry, but I must disagree with ya there. Actually and surprisingly, Keith Sweat (an original New Jack Swinger) is still tryin to push his cart up the lane.....

He just released new music earlier last year, and he released a compilation of greatest hits that STILL sound good. hmph!

I mean, he may not be at the top of the charts now, but in his "heyday" I must say he DID make an impact on R&B, by not only makin some of the greatest slow jams, but he's even connected and somewhat influenced other artists of the same genre.

-----
Keith!!! Well that is a good example of what was wrong with New Jack Swing. He has a horrible voice even if New Jack Swing was just dance music I say find someone that can at least sing along with the music. Keith is awful.
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Reply #22 posted 06/15/05 9:09am

Sdldawn

Slow Decline of R&B? To me, it started declining when we took away real instruments.. its real easy for an artist to throw in keyboard played parts and crappy plastic hooks to save time and money.. thus giving me the idea what their really in this thing for.. money
I'll give you an example of an artist who sounds amazing with real instruments.. Kci(?) & jojo Their version of Latley live.

Their albums? decent songwriting with a pile of shit to back it up.

That example can reflect the rest of that crap they call music. Even Prince barely uses the real instruments when it comes to his R&B junk..
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Reply #23 posted 06/15/05 9:19am

lilgish

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Sdldawn said:

Even Prince barely uses the real instruments when it comes to his R&B junk..

eek
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Reply #24 posted 06/15/05 9:33am

thesexofit

avatar

laurarichardson said:

kiss85 said:


Sorry, but I must disagree with ya there. Actually and surprisingly, Keith Sweat (an original New Jack Swinger) is still tryin to push his cart up the lane.....

He just released new music earlier last year, and he released a compilation of greatest hits that STILL sound good. hmph!

I mean, he may not be at the top of the charts now, but in his "heyday" I must say he DID make an impact on R&B, by not only makin some of the greatest slow jams, but he's even connected and somewhat influenced other artists of the same genre.

-----
Keith!!! Well that is a good example of what was wrong with New Jack Swing. He has a horrible voice even if New Jack Swing was just dance music I say find someone that can at least sing along with the music. Keith is awful.



Come on, if it wern't for newjack mary wouldn't of made hiphop soul. There would be no hiphop soul (I hate that term) without newjack.

Sure newjack was breezy, but it was a culture. U can still hear influences of it in modern pop today. As I have stated many times, newjack was the last of any sort of rnb was was NEW. Then came hiphop soul which was new too. After that, everything got recycled and u got wyclef, maxwell, d'angelo, budu etc looking back at "credible" soul to make hit records (neo soul)
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Reply #25 posted 06/15/05 10:51am

CinisterCee

thesexofit said:


Come on, if it wern't for newjack mary wouldn't of made hiphop soul. There would be no hiphop soul (I hate that term) without newjack.


I think this is true. Especially for those "in between" eras, like Jodeci's debut.
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Reply #26 posted 06/15/05 11:05am

thesexofit

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CinisterCee said:

thesexofit said:


Come on, if it wern't for newjack mary wouldn't of made hiphop soul. There would be no hiphop soul (I hate that term) without newjack.


I think this is true. Especially for those "in between" eras, like Jodeci's debut.



Jodeci's first was like that. The ballads were rnb slowjams that were harder edged then say keith sweats were. Then u turned it over to the b side and u got hard newjack tracks. Which dated in about a years time.

"gotta love" is a hot song. But it didn't dent charts wise.

r kellys first was much the same.
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Reply #27 posted 06/15/05 11:20am

namepeace

thesexofit said:

laurarichardson said:


-----
Keith!!! Well that is a good example of what was wrong with New Jack Swing. He has a horrible voice even if New Jack Swing was just dance music I say find someone that can at least sing along with the music. Keith is awful.



Come on, if it wern't for newjack mary wouldn't of made hiphop soul. There would be no hiphop soul (I hate that term) without newjack.

Sure newjack was breezy, but it was a culture. U can still hear influences of it in modern pop today. As I have stated many times, newjack was the last of any sort of rnb was was NEW. Then came hiphop soul which was new too. After that, everything got recycled and u got wyclef, maxwell, d'angelo, budu etc looking back at "credible" soul to make hit records (neo soul)



Sorry, laura, I agree with sexofit to the extent that NJS's formula for co-opting R&B around catchy lyrical hooks is still used today. The only difference is the hip-hop sound is more pronounced now. But there's not much difference in the quality of the mainstream R&B artist, who's as mediocre now as (s)he was in the late 80's and early 90's.

but sexofit . . . Wyclef a neo-soul artist? A credible MC and a musical poseur, maybe, but not a neo-soul artist.
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #28 posted 06/15/05 11:31am

laurarichardso
n

namepeace said:

thesexofit said:




Come on, if it wern't for newjack mary wouldn't of made hiphop soul. There would be no hiphop soul (I hate that term) without newjack.

Sure newjack was breezy, but it was a culture. U can still hear influences of it in modern pop today. As I have stated many times, newjack was the last of any sort of rnb was was NEW. Then came hiphop soul which was new too. After that, everything got recycled and u got wyclef, maxwell, d'angelo, budu etc looking back at "credible" soul to make hit records (neo soul)



Sorry, laura, I agree with sexofit to the extent that NJS's formula for co-opting R&B around catchy lyrical hooks is still used today. The only difference is the hip-hop sound is more pronounced now. But there's not much difference in the quality of the mainstream R&B artist, who's as mediocre now as (s)he was in the late 80's and early 90's.

but sexofit . . . Wyclef a neo-soul artist? A credible MC and a musical poseur, maybe, but not a neo-soul artist.

-----
We have to agree to disagree on the New Jack Swing and yes Wyclef is the biggest poseur in the music industry.
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Reply #29 posted 06/15/05 1:27pm

blackguitarist
z

avatar

theAudience said:

Similar sentiments are expressed by Nelson George in...



...The Death of Rhythm & Blues


tA

peace Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

Which is one of the BEST books ever written about not only r&b music, but music period. But right on to laura for putting up something educational.
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