Luv4oneanotha said:

For someone that "doesn't care" you spend a lot of time on these threads Luv4oneanotha.... and a lot of time reading court transcripts.

And why so tetchy with me? Nothing I have said is aggressive.

I think it's interesting to hear what people think on this. It's a huge deal and for his fan base - even bigger.

What happens to MJ matters to many people so why not invite discussion and opinion?

Luv4oneanotha said:

He may very well live in an alternate reality, but he also has to deal with this reality. lol. Your arguement that he should be dealt with in a fashion other than the way any one of us would be dealt with is absurd. Why should he be beyond the law of the land? The jury will decide if he is guilty or not. Your point that Jackson should be exempt from answering to anybody because he is "special" doesn't wash. He is a human being and a grown man.

Lleena said:

Very well put.

And I love you avatar. How cute is she?

Lleena said:

Luv4oneanotha said:

Lleena said:

I don't think he meant "dealt with" with regards to the law.
[Edited 5/30/05 10:57am]

lilgish said:

..
thanks adoreme



Okay maybe he shouldn't be being tried in a court of law, he is other worldly after all, maybe we should not question if he has committed any crime, but instead, feed him grapes while we gently prod the soles of his feet with a feather.


...
[Edited 5/30/05 11:17am]

Anybody who is accused of a crime ( and dont forget, it is a criminal offence we are talking about here) has to have a trial before he can be "dealt" with, unless he pleads guilty and is immediately sentenced.

..
[Edited 5/30/05 11:27am]

Lleena said:

Now your twisting my words
I never stated he was beyond law,
I merely stated , given the sittuation, this should be handled in an unorthodox manner, because its an unorthodox case..

It has nothing to do with him being "Special"

and i never pointed that Jackson should be exempt from anything
you clearly are putting words into my mouth

they key word is Variable
seriously you should read with more comprehension and less of your ego
why don't you cut the sarcasm

there was no judgement on the Habeas Corpus in which this judicial system was founded on.
Its the variables in the case that make IT special, not him

this is not your common where theres smoke theres fire case
its all smoke and mirrors
do keep up,
[Edited 5/30/05 12:48pm]

I think the conspiracy has closed in on him. Sneddon, Feldman, Katz, The Arvizos, Blanca Francia and son and the rest of the '93 'witnesses' can all burn in hell right beside the 'honorable' Judge Melville.

At the end of the day a grown man owning legal porn isn't illegal, nor is drinking alcohol and believe it or not, neither is sleeping in the same bed as a child. Though in the twisted world we live in now, that's passed most people by.

Being an avid transcript reader, i feel he definately hasn't done anything wrong and pray he doesn't go down just for being a bit 'out there', though i fear the worst.

Depending on the outcome, i may have to become a lurker on the org. Or maybe i'll just head into exile Yoda style!

Que sera sera.

Luv4oneanotha said:

Luv4oneanotha, you are getting terribly smug with your posts. And very few of them make sense anymore.

You did state that we cannot compare Jackson to "an ordinary man" but the entire nature of the justice system is that all people are judged as equal and a crime is a crime... you can't make exceptions.

adoreme said:

Getting smug?

I've always thought i was smug \

who says you can't make exceptions?
If the goverment can limit civil liberties during war-time they can damn sure make an exception when it comes to how reasonable the variable is...
A crime is indeed a crime...
but how do you determine a crime has been committed when their is no physical evidence?

all you have is the word of a boy and michael jackson
and thats what the jury will decide...
regardless of innocence or guilt
thats how its done

and when their is no physical evidence, then you judge character...
equal...
hmm
is Jackson the equal of a bum on the street
freedom wise yes...
thats bout it

if they were truly equal
then there would have been no need for a 3 million dollar bail...
hmmm
interesting
equal lol
[Edited 5/30/05 13:23pm]

Lleena said:

so he has to be tried in court for us to discuss anything about him ????? That's what he meant by being dealt with..... in discussion.

Marrk said:

Marrk, I've just logged back in to say that I hope you don't go into "lurk mode". MJ, whatever the verdict is a massive musical and social influence. There's no need to hide the fact that you are a fan....

Like I said, there are hundreds of people who will be really seriously affected by the outcome of this. MJ is a cultural icon. The nearer we get to the verdict the more I realise this. I hope that you and other fans will be okay. And I mean that in the most non-patronising way possible (given that we are on a website)...

Luv4oneanotha said:

Pish. And sort out the "there" and "their"s..... please.

Seriousl Luv4 - I appreciate your legal views on things. I think you are bright and obviously have read a lot on the case but your overall opinion seems to change every ten minutes.

As I mentioned before. I haven't been around for much of this trial but I have followed it. I logged in to register my sadness at the fact that we are facing a verdict that will affect many on this site. The fall of an icon (or not) if you like. I was not up for some long debate with you.

Luv4oneanotha said:

What kind of unorthodox way would you suggest? I would be interested to hear your views. Maybe the judge could do the moonwalk everytime he enters the courtroom and the jury should have been made to wear a single white glove?

(yep, I'm sarcasctic, but at least I'm making sense.)


My whole point was that he should NOT be treated any differently. your saying that he is not ordinary is tantamount to saying he is special

Luv4oneanotha said:

The only variables you have come up with is that Jackson lives an alternate realty, is not ordinairy, is strange, and finally, is unorthodox. Or are you referring to other variables?


as for the Habeas Corpus, it's usally filed by prisoners who feel thay have been unlawfully inprisoned, elaborate please!

lilgish said:

really?

nevermind, I'll leave that to him to explain.
[Edited 5/30/05 13:57pm]

adoreme said:

I don't know how i'll be if the worst happens. I suspect i won't take it well though, 25 years as a fan is going to come into it somewhere i'm sure. I didn't take your statement as patronising but sincere, it's appreciated. (could have done without welling up when i read it though)

All right let me put the keddle on,
since you guys still don't understand

Lleena this case has been handled in an unorthodox manner already
there is no alternative...

Im talking about the judgement
Certain things don't apply to this case,
For instance...

You can't convict Jackson based on the notion that he's admitted to sleeping with various children.
if this was any other person, just that innuendo will send a conviction for any ordinary person.

My point is that the evidence should be interpretted differently...
because of the unorthodox manner of this case...

Jacksons Celebrity Status, and Public opinion on his lifestyle
must be left out, so he can be "Equal" correct?
but though they are not an issue
the jurors must take in affact his celebrity status and his lifestyle, because of the charachter judgement thats in this verdict equation.
they also have to take in the information that he admittedly sleeps with children...
in addition they also have to counter that out of all the children he slept with only a fraction has ever came forward with some kind of allegation...

The Jury has to make a note of all these variables into the equation of a verdict
and determine what he truly is
These variables... are key
These variables are what make the case different and what can determine a conviction or an aquittal

Lleena said:

Habeas Corpus in general means Trial By Jury
The Writ of Habeas Corpus,
they file it whenever they have been tried without a jury,for instance a retired official, who wishes to be tried under Habeas Corpus,
instead of the usual Court marshal defense or military court etc...

Marrk said:

Twenty five years is a long time, man. I don't appreciate MJ the way I did but I appreciate the feelings of people that are life-long fans. If something similar happened to say, Madonna... I would be on the floor. When your idol is brought to this it has to hurt.

I hope that no matter what the verdict, you guys can make peace with it.

it's a bit frustrating now because I've the feeling that
1)we know more things now that the jury members and
2)some MJ fans claimed things that we've never seen in the trial => the proof that Sneddon is a racist, he would have called MJ a ni**er.

jn2 said:

some MJ fans = Marrk

I doubt anyone would bet their life that Sneddon never said the word and especially with regards to mike.

It happened, The defense knows about it. Sneddon thought Mike would flee when Melville gave him his passport back. You and Mike would be chillin' in France.


According to a local radio host sneddon has plain clothes cops watching the roads now.
[Edited 5/30/05 15:18pm]

SANTA MARIA, Calif. - As the Michael Jackson child molestation trial moves into its final stages, closing arguments could prove even more decisive here than in many other trials.

Prosecution and defense attorneys will tell two different stories, trying to convince jurors that Jackson is either a predatory pedophile and self-involved celebrity or a humanitarian who tried to aid a cancer-stricken boy but was victimized by scheming grifters.

Loyola University Law Professor Laurie Levenson, who has attended the trial, said closing arguments would be critical, unlike in most cases.

"Neither side was able to dominate the trial enough to be confident in what the verdict will be," she said. "Both sides have to persuade the jurors what to see in the facts that have been presented. They have to help them figure out the biggest enigma: who is the real Michael Jackson?"

Jackson, 46, is charged with molesting the then-13-year-old boy in February or March 2003, giving him wine, and then conspiring to hold his family captive to get them to rebut the damaging documentary, "Living With Michael Jackson."

The prosecution rebuttal case wound up Friday with jurors seeing a videotape of the accuser's July 6, 2003, interview with police. The defense then rested without calling any rebuttal witnesses. Judge Rodney S. Melville gave jurors the day off Tuesday while attorneys discuss jury instructions.

In closing arguments that could begin as early as Wednesday, prosecutors will paint Jackson as a manipulative molester, a weird-looking celebrity who thinks he is immune from the rules that govern normal conduct.

The defense has taken the tack of embracing Jackson's odd appearance and lifestyle and is likely to argue that he should not be penalized for being different.

Defense lawyers will remind jurors that although Jackson did not testify, they heard him sharing details of his difficult childhood and his desire to make children happy with his Neverland amusement park.

The defense will seek to demonize the accuser and his family as well as those they contend fell for their story. They will say there are financial motives everywhere and remind jurors how the mother approached other celebrities with her tale of woe before she hit on Jackson.

Prosecutors are relying not just on the current case but on a series of allegations against the star 12 to 15 years ago. They will suggest he got away with molestation before and wants to get away with it again.

They have highlighted so-called propensity evidence they were allowed to present under a unique California law known as penal code section 1108. It allowed them to resurrect allegations from the early 1990s that Jackson molested other boys — claims that never resulted in criminal charges. Jurors were not told that Jackson paid millions to make two of the claims go away. They did hear, however, that some of his accusers sold stories to tabloid magazines for thousands.

Prosecutors called one young man to say he was touched inappropriately during tickling sessions many years ago. The defense called three now grown men, including actor Macaulay Culkin, to say they were never touched sexually by Jackson.

Prosecutors are expected to say — as they did in opening statements — that Jackson was a star on the skids trying to resurrect his image by granting access to an interviewer who then skewered him with his own words in a video documentary, "Living With Michael Jackson."

On that video, the world saw the boy who would become his accuser holding Jackson's hand and resting his head on the pop star's shoulder.

The show raised a storm of controversy because of Jackson's acknowledgment that he allowed children to sleep in his bed, though he said the encounters were entirely innocent. Prosecutors say he entered a panic mode, decided to produce a rebuttal video and needed the boy and his family to participate. They will say Jackson was at the heart of a conspiracy that involved child abduction, false imprisonment and extortion.

And in the weeks after the family performed on the video, prosecutors allege that Jackson then for the first time molested the boy. The defense is expected to ridicule that time line as unbelievable, and to attack the boy's mother as a money-hungry charlatan.

The defense will remind jurors that the boy took acting lessons, has been described as cunning and shrewd, and said himself that Jackson broke his heart by rejecting him as a friend. They will say this is a case of revenge.

Prosecutors will certainly remind jurors of the demeanor of the boy, both on the witness stand and in a powerful video shown at the very end of their case in which he haltingly described the alleged abuse. They will say that if jurors believe him, they must convict.

"Jurors will not easily decide this case," said Levenson. "They know that they will be second guessed on so many things."

adoreme said:

I agree with you...

He's definitely fucked up...

He disgusts me...

And MJ fans are fucked up too...

krayzie said:

Thanks. I'll think about how fucked up I’ am every time I listen to my J5, Jackson’s, solo audio and video.....and you know what I really enjoy it....so that must mean I'm fucked up. I must really disgust you. In fact I wouldn't bother coming on here since were all so disgusting...and don't tell me you're joking cause this is not the first time you've said this.




excuse me while I go read over the morals clause I signed with R.Kelly, I think he might have breached the contract and now I find step in the name of love (remix) less bumpin'.
[Edited 5/30/05 15:53pm]

lilgish said:

What?! he's not planning an escape via hot air balloon?

krayzie said:

[snip-sos]

I'm being generous in my assesment of you purely for your avatar. It's a pity you have it really.

lilgish said:

Stevie was on the defence list as a witness. I wonder would Michael's friend Stevie have been fucked up and disgusting if the defence had have called him. Fuck Krayzie, he's a fucking wanker.

Nearly 7000 posts, and my first flames. Woohoo!
[Edited 5/30/05 17:25pm]

[snip-sos]

Sweet article (at least for MJ fans) - Poor Mike!

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

I have been left devastated

As abuse trial nears end, Jackson's dad tells his story

BY ADAM NICHOLS
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

As the Michael Jackson trial draws to a close, the superstar's father tells for the first time how the accusations have devastated his family.

In an emotional and sometimes moving interview, Joe Jackson revealed the Prince of Pop has stopped eating and barely sleeps.

And the notoriously insensitive dad said he was relieved he couldn't cry as he watched the trial's effect on his son.

"It's the worst experience I've ever had," he told international journalist Daphne Barak.

"I look around and everybody else is crying. I'm wide-eyed and wondering, 'How come I can't cry?'

"If I started crying, I would probably never stop."

The Gloved One has been left physically wasted by accusations that he molested a 13-year-old boy in 2003, gave him wine and conspired to hold his family captive, said his dad.

"[If] you've got a problem like he has, it bothers you when you get ready to eat," he said. "He probably doesn't eat enough and doesn't get enough sleep.

"I'm trying to tell him to stay strong and eat so he can get through this, yet he has lost a lot of weight. Even his fans are saying, 'Michael should eat.' They want him to eat. I want him to eat, too.

"We always mention to him about it, but he says, 'I'm going to eat. I'll eat some.' But he doesn't eat enough. He takes a couple of bites.

"He doesn't sleep a bit, and that bothers me. In his situation, he should be getting plenty of rest and eating plenty of wholesome food to keep him strong. It's very important."

"He's taking it pretty hard, because a lot of stones have been hurled at him," said his father.

Closing arguments in the 13-week trial are set to start this week.

"I'm always telling him, 'Michael, stick with this, you be strong and you'll get through it.'

"Every day is difficult. To sit up there all that time and listen to all that stuff that you know is not true. Sometimes I have to hold [Jackson's mother Katharine] to keep her from jumping up and yelling."

He said Michael Jackson, who did not testify in the trial, wanted to take the stand - but was advised not to by others.

"Michael wants to get up there on the stand," said his dad. "He said, 'I can handle it, because I didn't do anything and they're trying to do this to me.' So he wants to defend himself."

In fact, his father blames many of Jackson's problems on the people who surround him.

"My biggest fear is trying to keep honest people around me," he said. "That's been Michael's problem.

"I'm talking about the 'handlers,' the people that are involved with this situation. They weren't too loyal to him like they were supposed to be. They didn't take care of him like they were supposed to."

He places most of the blame on interviewer Martin Bashir, whose documentary, "Living With Michael Jackson," brought attention to his friendships with young boys.

"We probably wouldn't be here if he hadn't done that Bashir documentary," he said.

"Michael didn't ever want to give interviews to nobody. As soon as he gave one to Bashir, he got into trouble. And Bashir knows it wasn't fair. He knows what he did.

"I knew what Bashir was about. He'll try anything to make money. That's money for him, they don't care who they hurt.

"I know what happened, and I know it didn't happen like that. I'm with him all the time, that's my son. He wasn't raised that way. It's just not right."

He said the trial may frighten the superstar out of future friendships with children.

"He's not against the kids," said his dad. "He's helped so many kids all over the world.

"But what he's afraid of, somebody may try something, try to make money. Plan something. He knows that all kids are pure in heart. They don't know anything about any dirty stuff, that comes from the grownups."

Michael Jackson has described his father as an emotionless bully who beat him and forced him and his brothers to work long hours on singing and dance routines. But Joe Jackson said the trial had brought father and son closer together.

"I've had so many people come up to me and say, 'I wish I had a father who had made me do well in music and in some kind of profession,'" he said.

"They said I didn't do anything wrong by working with them very hard to achieve the goals that they have achieved.

"I probably gave him a hug once in a while, but not every day like some people do. Because I had to work. I was working two jobs. I'm not sorry that I worked with them so closely, because they're known all over the world.

"Blood is thicker than water. Michael has Katharine's and my blood running through his veins. It means that I'm by him. I'm for him.

"He's going through a lot that he shouldn't have to go through, because they're trying to accuse him of something he didn't do. I will stick up for him all day long, because he is not that way.

"I'd tell him, 'Michael, I'm there for you 100%, and I always had a good feeling and believed in you. I love you, and all these things that have been talked about me. Hey, people are going to talk. I still love you.'"

Joe Jackson talked about high points in the trial - but also of lows, including the time his son appeared in court looking bedraggled and dressed in pajamas.

The judge had ordered him to attend, despite his claims he'd been hospitalized due to illness.

"We didn't care," he said. "We'd go in there barefoot in that courthouse. We're Jacksons. We don't care what people say. We had to be there."

But he said he felt the trial had largely been favorable to his son.

"Most of the days have been good," he said. "All we're looking for is the jury to be fair."

And he said his son was optimistic about his chances of acquittal, even preparing for a return to the pop charts.

"I'm thinking he did write some things and put down something," he said. "I think he shouldn't release something as soon as court is over with because everybody's waiting on something."


Kids know nothing about ordeal

Michael Jackson's kids know nothing about the accusations that could send him to prison, the star's father said.

Paris, 7, and Prince Michael, 8, have been shielded from TV and news coverage of one of the most high-profile trials ever.

"They don't know what's going on," Joe Jackson said.

"They don't need to be knowing all of that stuff. We don't want to interrupt their day with being worried about all of that stuff.

"There's no TV to be watching. If they want to watch television, they've got videos.

"These are kids. You have to treat them as kids," he told international journalist Daphne Barak.

Even though their father lost weight because of the stress of the 13-week trial, the children's lives continue as normal, Joe Jackson said.

"During the day, the nanny's there with them," he said.

"We came back from the courthouse, I had to go and walk with them that evening. I was watching them out there, playing around, walking and carrying on. They were having a good time."

And, despite uncertainty about his future, the pop star behaves as normal with his children.

"He's always got energy enough for those kids, and that's fantastic," said Jackson.

"The one thing I noticed, when we leave for the courthouse, I guess it's about 7:30 a.m., they'll be up, waving out the window."

"I just think they know we leave every morning and they see us when we come back. But, actually, they don't know."

Adam Nichols

Originally published on May 31, 2005

http://www.nydailynews.co...8982c.html