The Curtis Mayfield thread got me thinking about the importance of Rhythym playing and it's influence on Jimi's sound. in Charles Shaar Murray's Great Book, "Crosstown Traffic", he mentions Hendrixian guitarist Frank Marino of Mahogany Rush) and Frank's statement that: "There are a lot of guitarists in Soul that have that black Church/gospel type of rhythm playing...people don't identify them with rock, but if you gave 'em a stack of marshalls, really amplified them, and introduced a bit of fuzz and feedback, My God they'd sound more like Hendrix than I do!"

--- an interesting observation, because it brings forth the point that rhythm was an important part of Jimi's playing, a part that a lot of people tend to overlook when concentrating on the pyschedelic imagery and his gifts as a soloist---

--late rock guitar virtuoso Mike Bloomfield observed that Hendrix was "the blackest guitarist I've ever heard... Jimi especially loved the real old black musical forms, and they pour out in his playing" (David Henderson, 'Scuse Me While I Kiss the Sky, p. 192).


the two statements also focus in on the fact that, in addition to blues, which everyone acknowledges, there's was also this type of rhythym guitar that comes from playing and accompanying vocalists in Church, which is quite audible in guitarists like Curtis Mayfield , which carried through to R&B/ Soul Music, and Hendrix Definitely had to have a working knowledge of it in playing with King Curtis, Little Richard and The Isley Brothers....he learned from that wellspring while adding his personal experience to it....

an interesting story about Jimi, and how rhythms can cut through language, culture, and musical barriers and plug into something much deeper...

The British session drummer, Rocki, an African who had recorded with groups such as the Rolling Stones, Spooky Tooth, and Ginger Baker had jammed with Hendrix on a few occasions. from David Henderson's biography:

"He [Hendrix] had gotten a chance to see Rocki and some other African musicians on the London scene. He found it a pleasure to play rhythms against their polyrhythms. They would totally get outside, into another kind of space that he had seldom been in before. ... Rocki's father was a voodoo priest and the chief drummer of a village in Ghana, West Africa. Rocki's real name was Kwasi Dzidzornu. One of the first things Rocki asked Jimi was where he got that rhythm from. When Jimi demurred, Rocki went on to explain in his halting English that many of the signature rhythms Jimi played on guitar were very often the same rhythms that his father played in voodoo ceremonies. They would jam a lot in Jimi's house. One time they were jamming and Jimi stopped and asked Rocki point-blank, 'You communicate with God, don't you?' Rocki said, 'Yes, I communicate with God'" (Henderson, 'Scuse Me While I Kiss the Sky, pp. 250, 251).




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[Edited 5/26/05 12:24pm]

I think any guitarist worth their salt has a good understanding of, and an inate feel for, rhythm as well as melody.

Hendrix certainly had it, Prince has it by the bucket load, even the best of the more stereotypically "rock" guitarists have it - Slash (I'm a fan of his, of course, but I hope that doesn't cloud my judgement), Angus etc.

I would rather hear a song with a catchy hook over some tightly played chords rather than an indulgent solo with no sense of timing, any day

Slash said:

I totally agree. I love a great solo, but I truly appreciate a guitartist who knows his chords and is in the pocket. I love guitarists who can add texture to a song, throwing in a nice solo now and then (Andy Summers comes to mind).

Pali , you never failed to amaze me with your perceptive posts.

Here's part of a post I did in another area of this site regarding the importance of rhythm guitar playing in general.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
To be a competent all around guitarist I just think you've got to have strong rhythm chops.
Not enough is made about having strong rhythm/accompanyment guitar skills it seems.
Let's face it, to the uninitiated, rhythm/accompanyment guitar is not the glamour-guitar spot.
But it's just simple math (don't freak, music is just the creative use of mathmatics).
Unless you're doing the guitar-god thing where all you do is play solos all night,
at some point you generally have to accompany someone else. Be it the vocalist or another instrumental soloist.



To paraphrase the Bob Dylan tune Gotta Serve Somebody...

You might be a rock 'n' roll addict prancing on the stage
You might have drugs at your command, women in a cage
You may be a business man or some high degree thief
They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief

But you're gonna have to accompany somebody
Yes indeed, you're gonna have to accompany somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to accompany somebody

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jimi's rhythm playing is one of the most overlooked aspects of his style.



But some players, Jean-Paul Bourelly for example, have really paid attention.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

Stax said:

Andy Summers, yes

the kind of guitar playing I like myself, and like to think I play myself, isn't "lead" or "rhythm" but a mixture of the two - I like bands that have just one guitarist who has to kind of cover all bases.

Obviously I am a fan of GunsNRoses but the idea of a band with a dedicated rhythm player and a lead player doesn't really fit in with my idea of what a guitarist 'should' do

theAudience said:

Yes Ndeed!!!



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Slash said:

Yeah, my favorite guitarists tend to be the ones that have the ability to do both very well, often at the same time...



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[Edited 5/26/05 8:11am]

paligap said:

Lindsey Buckingham's solo acoustic version of Big Love on The Dance live album/ DVD

amazing stuff

theAudience said:

Yep, Bourelly definitely !! and with guitarists like Prince and Stevie Ray Vaughn, for all their talent as soloists, what impressed me most about them is when I heard them playing rhythm, accompanying other artists.....



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paligap said:

Excellent thread, pali. One of the things that made Jimi so great is the fact that he was such a great rhythm guitarist. I feel that u can't truly be a great lead guitarist if you can't play rhythm. Your timimg (good pocket) and phrasing, which are important elements to being a good rhythm player, are also important elements to being a good lead guitarist as will. Your phrasing, alternate picking speed, natural vibrato and just your overall licks will be enhanced by being able to play good rhythm. Your speed will have more of a flow and your playing will have taste and style.

Jimi once said that he wanted to choke Clapton because Eric couldn't play rhythm.

blackguitaristz said:

Yup! Clapton was pursuing a Blues soloist style, whereas for Hendrix, the rhythm was the foundation. I was just reading an article by Caleb Kennedy, "Hendrix & Clapton:
Experience & Cream", where he compared the two styles:

"When you listen to Hendrix's earlier recordings with Curtis Knight or Lonnie Youngblood, it's clear how heavily he was influenced by the R&B style of that time. His playing, when he burst onto the English scene, was not far removed from his playing on the "chitlin circuit" in previous years. He never fully moved out of that style, though his playing expanded and became more sophisticated. There is none of that rhythm style in Clapton's work with Cream, whereas in Hendrix's songs, the bass-player almost usually follows a riff that Hendrix initiates. This difference is because Hendrix came up from the bottom, spending years playing chords and absorbing rhythms, before he came into his own as a solo player. Clapton started learning the solo styles of the great blues players, as his bands required a blues soloist which is the role he continued right to today."




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[Edited 5/26/05 12:04pm]

Prince has also stated that, in addition to Santana and Hendrix, he was heavily influenced by Freddie Stone, Jimmy Nolen and Tony Maiden of Rufus/Chaka Khan fame (He and Chaka composed "Sweet Thing")---again the importance of rhythm playing comes to the fore....





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[Edited 5/26/05 12:00pm]

blackguitaristz said:

I was about to add that quote. You got it.

Jimi could play two parts at once.

Even a song like "Like A Rolling Stone" with it's simple chords Jimi made it sound like a great textbook of rhythm guitar. (With it's roots in Curtis Mayfield and Bobby Womack and the great Gospel players.)

Jerome Smith was very important too. Nile played a gig with KC and after hearing Jerome he went from "Jazz box" guitars to a Strat with a twin reverb. Bernard told him "Man, THAT'S the sound I've been trying to get you to play.

cranshaw62 said:

Xactly!






That's Right, Good Point!! Man, I was just reading about that a few months back, in that book, "Everybody Dance: Chic and The Politics of Disco"...




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[Edited 5/26/05 12:23pm]

paligap said:

Hey fellas, it only stands to reason that Jimi Hendrix would be involved in the challenger (The Isley Brothers with Testify ) to James Brown's Out of Sight as the first funk record.

Listen to the crazy rhythm guitar he's playing in that tune.

And like crenshaw62 said, the Monterey Pop version of Like A Rolling Stone is pure textbook rhythm guitar.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

theAudience said:

True!! I gotta go home and throw both of those on---




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theAudience said:

Yep. Oh, Jimi's playing on "Like A Rolling Stone", his passion for the song, it's like Jimi was living that shit. The lryics to the song. You can see it and hear it in his voice. He's up there, thinking, "Finally, I've made it". You can see him "feeling" the lyrics, that shit was real to Jimi. The part where Jimi says 'let me play my guitar for a second, alright?" That shit makes my eyes well up every time I watch it, cuz Jimi means that shit right there.

blackguitaristz said:

Then how come so many are[great lead guitarists]? Let me rephrase: Then how come so many think that so many are?
I was starting to forget that you need more than the ability to play fast pretty things over the power "chords" . More guys do this than not. Maybe it's 'cause the other "fast pretty things" wouldn't know rhythm guitar if it hit them like a " Wait Until Tomorrow" boulder.

Semi Side question. Since we're on Rhythm and Jimi and Isleys and stuff: Who played guitar on It's Your Thing?

Rhythm guitar is totally underappreciated. I think that's where many guitarists really show what they've got(Prince included). One of he first things guitarists learn is blues solos, and it's easy to play behind your head so that stuff doesn't easily impress me.

And as was said earlier, Jimi mixed the two, being the only guitar player in the band. Sang at the same time, too.

I don't know if I've heard anyone before him do that "Little Wing" style of playing, but I've sure heard a lot who came after him do it. His version of Killing Floor is unbelievable! He's like a machine.

anon said:

Supposedly a guitarist named Charlie Pitts played on it. Ernie played bass.


tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

With the Isley's comment, I just thought I'd throw in how Jimi plays the guitar part to Sly's "Sing A Simple Song" on Band of Gypsys. Classic funky rhythm guitar. Who was that playing for Sly?

andyman91 said:

Sly's brother, Freddie Stone.

blackguitaristz said:

So there really was some family Stone in the band. His voice sounds a bit like Sly's, too. I always wondered about that.
[Edited 5/26/05 14:54pm]

This is a GREAT thread. Jimi's rhythm playing could be sweet and delicate as a kiss and then it could knock you on your ass the next minute. Jimi was able to play rhythm, bass, and lead at the same time. His hands were huge and was able to get those large stretches goin' on. Some of his best examples of his finest rhythms are "Wait Until Tommorow", "Ezy Ryder", "You Got Me Floatin" and "Like A Rolling Stone". Black was right, that shit is so powerful it moves you. "Freedom" is also a funky, funky rhythm riff by Jimi. Can you imagine the riffs Jimi would have came up with if he hooked up with Larry Graham and Gregg Errico (like he planned to?)..DAMN!!!!! (lol)

SPYZFAN1 said:

Yeah, that would have been killing! Damn!.. Damn, spyz!

theAudience said:

Thanks. I always hear that it was Ernie but always thought he would have been very young at the time.

andyman91 said:

Jimi playing behind his head impresses me 'cause he's really playing.

andyman91 said:

It was done before. Those Chord Melodies are sweet though. Was listening to that today.

blackguitaristz said:

would also have to agree w/U BG Baby. Graham and Errico combo would have been slammin.

Yeah it would have been the bomb Legs! Frankie "Cash" from P-Funk said he and Billy Bass Nelson also jammed with Jimi a few times and ALMOST got something going but Jimi's management wasn't havin' it. Damn that Mike Jeffrey! (lol)

SPYZFAN1 said:

Hell nah Mike Jeffrey wasn't having it. U know he wasn't digging the band with Buddy and Billy either.