vainandy said:

No it wouldn't. Then they'd just start looking for "the gay gene", and try to figure out a way of eliminating of it.

good one, voices!

vainandy said:

That's not a good argument. that like saying "Why would a fair-skinned black person who looks white choose to be black when they could pass for white? Why would that choose to be black and have to put up with racial discrimination?"

That's a very good point. There have been many black people that have a white looking appearance that have tried to pass for white. Blacks, for years, have always been the most hated minority here in America so I think a lot of light skinned blacks found it easier to try to pass for white. Over the years, blacks have come together, stood up, rised up, and demanded the respect they deserve. The battle is not completely over but things have become much better and I have noticed that many more light skinned blacks are very proud of being black.

The gay community can learn a lot from the black struggle. It takes a lot of strength, pride, and unity within the gay community itself to win some of these battles. These are three things the gay community has lacked and needs to work on.

dag said:

That could very well be true, dag.

vainandy said:

Very well put!

vainandy said:

Sad, but true. I'm not exactly a political animal - well, in a 'gay' way, that is - but, as you've also said, I think a lot of gay people could benefit from finding their inner pride and standing up for themselves. The one thing I've learned as I've got older is that - until you start having some pride in yourself and what you believe in - how the hell can you expect anyone else to? Not giving a sh*t what anyone thinks about me (apart from those I do care about) is one of the biggest lessons I've had to learn.

My experience of the scene is identical to what you've said above: too many queens on the look-out for a jump (which is great when you need it but is that what life's all about??). No wonder some straight people view gay people as being frivolous and silly all the time.

Just going back to what I originally said, though, I really admire the way you stick to your guns. I think you have challenged the way a lot of people think on this site. And - with regards to Prince's 'badass' bitch attitude that he used to have - that is the way more gay men should be. I think some homophobes would think twice before making their comments. But... to each his own; not everyone can be that way.

Thank you.



After being on this site for a year now, I've noticed a lot of gay male Prince fans which is a very good surprise to me. Where I come from, most gay men cannot stand Prince. They always refer to him as "Miss Prince" and they say he is a queen. They can pick out all his feminine tendencies, moreso than a straight person could. My response to that is: "Shouldn't that be all the more reason to love and support him?". Gay men hating Prince as a person, whether they like his music or not, is kind of like self hatred. They should be proud of him because he breaks all the "weak" stereotypes that have been placed on gay men, or gay looking men, for years.

Another thing I hear is "He's too fish for me, I want a real man. Prince is more fish than I am". That's not the point. If he's so much like you, you should see him as a role model rather than a sex partner. Their role models are all women and drag queens, which make a lot of straight people think that all gay men "want to be a woman". Prince is a man just like they are, I don't see why they can't relate more to him for that reason alone. Also, gay men looking up to other men, rather than just women, shows the straight world that not all gay people live in a "fantasy world".
[Edited 5/25/05 22:55pm]

AsianBomb777 said:

In the 1990's, 50% of all straight marriages ended in divorce.

In the 2000's, now it's 55%!!!!

vainandy said:

I've noticed the same sort of reaction. Prince is femme, yeah. But if you're going to be looking at him as a role model of sorts instead of a potential sex partner, where's the problem?


That said, a lot of the bi and straight guys I know would leap at the chance to get in bed with the Lil Dude.

No problem at all, I just don't see why more gay men can't relate to and admire other gay men, or gay looking men, instead of just women. Relating to another man would be more realistic because these men have faced the same prejudices they have and are dealing with them.

Female role models for gay men are just doing what comes natural, being a female. There's no discrimination they have to face from the straight world for that, except for maybe a few strong minded women like Madonna, who arrogantly stand up for gays. A lot of the other ladies that are being worshipped in the gay community are simply just doing their thing as ladies, minding their own business, not really doing anything to be deserving of such worship.

Lots of gay men run around calling themselves and others "she" and "girl". That's all fine and good around the club and among themselves, but a lot of them continue this talk in the general straight public. Straight people are rolling over laughing and these damn queens don't realize they are being "laughed at" instead of being "laughed with". TV shows like Jerry Springer make me absolutely sick to my stomach. These whores come on there finger popping, ass twisting, and every other stereotype there is, in front of a young, loud, arrogant homophobic audience. It's the ultimate in degrading.

I also think people should never lose sight of reality. Just because a gay man is attracted to other men, that does not make him a woman, or even a "woman trapped in a man's body". I know many gay men that are very proud of being a man but these gay men are not the ones the media lets people see.



Oh most definately! Back in the early days, when Prince was a huge star in the R&B world, I used to observe how a lot of guys looked at him. It's almost like they were lusting. They would also beat some ass if someone said something bad about him.
[Edited 5/26/05 7:02am]

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[Edited 5/27/05 2:46am]

vainandy said:

I think this happens because there's still a lot of internalized homophobia, especially, I suspect, in people just coming out. It's easier to look up to a woman like Madonna because an actual gay man might be just a bit too "real" still.


Thing is, some genuinely can't help acting the stereotype because it's in their nature. Lots more act the queen because they think they're supposed to to be properly gay. I don't understand the logic at all, but that's the impression I get, for sure. When the queeniness is an act, it's just pathetic to watch. I've made it a point not to associate with "plastic fags". They're just boring.

Very true. Gender and sexuality are such complicated issues though, when you really start to think about it. For example, I'm a bi female, (and quite happy to remain so) but even though I'm not noticably butch, I feel I've got a bit more "boy" in me than most women. Not sure how to explain it beyond that. It would complicate things a lot less for us all if society were to teach itself to not think of gender and sexuality in such black and white terms.



The gay boys I know are pretty much uninterested in P., but a lot of the straight and bi ones think he's lovely. Even my boyfriend (who is also bi) has declared him shag-worthy.

I've tried to figure out what it is about him that has so many straight guys interested. Could be that he's pretty, but that can't be all there is to it. Johnny Depp seems to have a similar effect on straight guys.
[Edited 5/27/05 2:47am]

I really like this MJ thread. And there's not too many morons on it. For a change.

Sorry to revive this thread, but in regards to MJ's potent gaiety, weren't the porn mags confiscated from Neverland brands of porn that primarily feature naked women? vainandy, I believe, pointed out that a gay man would have straight porn because it would still give him d-ck to focus on, but don't the likes of "Playboy" and "Hustler" feature only women?

So, to those who believe he is gay, how would one explain this? I'm simply curious.

Magazines like "Playboy" and "Penthouse" very rarely have a man in them. Magazines like "Hustler", "Chic", "Club International", etc. have at least one layout of a couple (man and woman together) in almost every issue.

Wow this thread is still going on....

anyways´, if you watch MJ guys, you´l notice that there are two types of ppl he responds too - women and children.

Remember that scene from Living with Michael Jackson where a guy was screaming he came all the way from Israel and MJ couldn´t care less and a girl starts whining if she could hug him and he goes. "LET HER! LET HER!" and than adds "I´d give you more than a hug."

Also in that New York signing he did after releasing Invincible, you could clearly see he was responding just to women and kids. But there´s huge difference in the WAY he responds to them. He´s a flirt with women and when he´s with kids he changes into a kid himself.

dag said:

I see your point, but you can act like a ladies' man and still be gay. Heck, Rock Hudson (R.I.P.) and Elton John even married women, and look at what they turned out to be in reality.

Don't worry, though, I'm not saying he couldn't be straight; I'm just throwing an alternate out there. I had never entertained the idea of MJ being gay until I read this thread. vainandy and jayaredee really brought up some legit points.

yeah, I know. But I still think MJ ain´t gay. I just saw too many behind the scenes footage where he might have had no idea he was being taped or that we could hear what he was saying and he shocked me many times how flirtatious he was. Once even clearly waiting till he was alone with that girl which shows he wasn´t acting or pretending to be ladies man for others. i don´t know if you guys saw making of Stranger in Moscow, but there´s this one lady who took care of his make-up (it wasn´t Karen though) and there was Karen, her and the director standing there with him giving him some instructions and he kinda waited till everyone walked away and was left there alone with this woman. he kept staring at her breast and than he started taking that womenś bra strap off and she just managed to stop him at the right time. I kinda doubt he knew he was being filmed, cause all the main cameras are off in front of him and this shot is made somewhere behind his back far away from him.
Truly I had hard times believing myself that he could be like that. I saw him act like an adolescent guy when it comes to women. I understand ppl´s doubt about his sexuality, but MJ doesn´t show this side of his to the public.

dag said:

...but clearly not IN love if you ask me.

how about these? (taken AFTER divorce!)