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Printablevainandy said: dag said:
that´s true, but Mike has to deal with much worse thing than ppl hating his for his "homosexuality" They hate him for being "pedophile". But he put himself in the position to be accused by hanging out with children in the first place. The first scandal ten years ago didn't open his eyes, he had to continue on hanging with them and go for a second one. If he's so crazy that he has to hang out with children to have fun, well he has his own children now and he can hang out with them. Before that he had neices and nephews to hang out with and he could still be crazy as a damn loon but not have outsiders trying to get his money. And you´re right, I also admire ppl who aren´t afraid to show who they really are and admit that they are homosexual, but that doesn´t mean they have to be nasty. George Michael has come out and he still manages to keep some kind of decency. He never used sex as to shock or as publicity like Madonna, Prince and all the other recent "superstars" you see on MTV right now.
Yes, but Prince was way before them. He was one of the first to be so nasty and shocking, Madonna and the others followed his lead. As far as homosexuals go, there's nothing wrong with flaunting it as long as it's done in a strong "fuck you" kind of way and not a weak one. Straight people flaunt their heterosexuality all the time. It's about time the world actually started living by that "everyone is created equal" phrase. I love shocking and nasty. The more shocking and nasty, the better. I love to see stuffy judgemental people get all uptight and get their feathers ruffled and the more they are offended, the more I like it. Prince is NO WAy one of the first to be nasty and shocking... DAvid Bowie WAY before Prince played the gay attitude.... Rick James was ten times more nasty than Prince in the late 70's... And I don't mention all the punk or underground artist in the early 80's.... [Edited 5/20/05 2:42am] | |
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dag said:
IT´s the sociaty that´s sick, not MJ! And my point is WHY THE HELL SHOULD HE STOP ACTING THAT WAY??? If we took that approach towards anything, gay ppl would have to live in the closet all their life, just because sociaty thinks they´re sick and we want the sociaty to be open, right? We can´t let ppl who are different hide or stop acting that way, just because society is thinks they´re sick. I think we should defend those ppl against that ignorant sociaty. We should defend them and not say. Oh, they brought it on upon themselves, so they deserve it. I'm not saying that Michael is actually having sex with kids but sleeping in the same bed leaves it open that there's a chance that he could be having sex with them. Gay people aren't sleeping in the bed with children. They are sleeping in a bed either alone or with someone that is an adult. Even parents don't sleep with their own children when they become a certain age. You say, poor homosexuals, they´re so misunderstood, but MJ is obviously not a poor boy for being misunderstood. That regret on our part towards ppl who are treated wrongly applies only to certain people with certain type of "abnormalities" I guess, right?
He does bring it on himself. If you are a gay man or even look like a gay man, you have to be more careful around children than a straight man would because people want to accuse you of molesting children. I remember one year I was putting up Christmas decorations outside and the little boy next door liked the way it looked and asked me if I would help him. I helped him that one time (the poor thing was trying to use one strand of lights and snake it through four bushes  ). The next day, he knocked on my door wanting help with something else and I told him I was busy. Several other times he knocked on my door and I also told him I was busy. I wanted to help him but I had to look out for myself and worry about if his mother was going to accuse me of something. This was also around the time of Michael Jackson's first scandal.
Whether Michael likes it or not, he is an adult and he has to face the fact that people are going to wonder if he is molesting these children if he spends too much time with them. They also have a perfect right to wonder because many children are actually molested by adults and if Michael is guilty, he's not going to admit it. [Edited 5/20/05 2:51am] Andy is a four letter word. | |
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dag said: Spending time with kids (and even sharing your bed with them) is not wrong in and of itself, it's the fact that most people WILL see something sinister about that kind of behaviour that's caused the problems. MJ's worked in the entertainment business long enough that he should know by now that how the public perceives a star can make or break them. Yes, there's (probably) nothing wrong with his behaviour, but he should have known to be more careful about it -especially after the first round of allegations. That should have been his wakeup call to either cool it with all the kids hanging around, or be more discreet about it.
exactly, you´re right, but that´s NOT MJ´s problem, but the sociaty´s. IT´s the sociaty that´s sick, not MJ! And my point is WHY THE HELL SHOULD HE STOP ACTING THAT WAY??? If we took that approach towards anything, gay ppl would have to live in the closet all their life, just because sociaty thinks they´re sick and we want the sociaty to be open, right? We can´t let ppl who are different hide or stop acting that way, just because society is thinks they´re sick. I think we should defend those ppl against that ignorant sociaty. We should defend them and not say. Oh, they brought it on upon themselves, so they deserve it. Which is what most ppl do with MJ, they don´t say: " leave him alone. Maybe he´s different, but he´s not sick. He doesn´t deserve this." You hear ppl say quite the opposite: "Maybe he didn´t do it, but he deserves it, he brought it upon himself. Sleeping with kids is NOT normal. No matter he did nothing wrong, he should have know society is sick and will attack him for that." If we will turn our backs on everyone who is different and gets attacked for that saying they deserved it, than this world will never be a nice place to live in. You say, poor homosexuals, they´re so misunderstood, but MJ is obviously not a poor boy for being misunderstood. That regret on our part towards ppl who are treated wrongly applies only to certain people with certain type of "abnormalities" I guess, right? I never said we should blame MJ for what's happening now if he's truly innocent. But YES -he most certainly should have been more careful. Other stars have to be careful with their private lives, why shouldn't Michael? Especially Michael, considering his status as a superstar? And FYI, in most parts of the world, and even a lot of places in North America gay people DO have to hide who they are. It's just not safe to advertise behaviour like that in a lot of areas. I'm not saying it's right, for gay people or for people like MJ, but that's the reality of it.If you know (as Michael should have) that there could be serious ramifications to advertising unusual behaviour, it's not wise to do so, even if there's nothing wrong with it. Period. "A Watcher scoffs at gravity!" | |
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krayzie said:
Prince is NO WAy one of the first to be nasty and shocking... DAvid Bowie WAY before Prince played the gay attitude.... Rick James was ten times more nasty than Prince in the late 70's... And I don't mention all the punk or underground artist in the early 80's.... You got me on that one. So was Little Richard. Andy is a four letter word. | |
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nappylonstockings said: dag said: we all know that Prince likes women, but some ppl have hard times believing that
I wonder why? 
maybe he just likes the taste of guitars??  | |
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Why must some MJ fanatics have an excuse for EVERYTHING?  | |
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dag said: exactly, you´re right, but that´s NOT MJ´s problem, but the sociaty´s. IT´s the sociaty that´s sick, not MJ! And my point is WHY THE HELL SHOULD HE STOP ACTING THAT WAY??? If we took that approach towards anything, gay ppl would have to live in the closet all their life, just because sociaty thinks they´re sick and we want the sociaty to be open, right? We can´t let ppl who are different hide or stop acting that way, just because society is thinks they´re sick. I think we should defend those ppl against that ignorant sociaty. We should defend them and not say. Oh, they brought it on upon themselves, so they deserve it. You're right, Michael shouldn't have to stop acting that way but don't be surprise if he's accused again in another 10 years. Maybe 5. Just because you're not doing something 'wrong' doesn't always means it's okay. People go to jail every day even though they did nothing 'wrong'.Maybe this is a wake up call for Michael to address some issues in his life. The first time was a whisper in his ear, the second time a tap on the shoulder, if there's a next time it might be too late. Life gave him warnings. Being innocent doesn't mean be ignorant. I don't understand how some fans don't even remotely think that there might be something bizarre with his blatant insistence to continue this behavior. The constant defense is that he's done nothing wrong but what exactly has he done right???? We already know there are evil people out there that conspire and try to extort. We live in a world that is unfair and unjust. That's a given. Nothing new here. Sometimes one has to adhere to societies expectations despite what they feel or think. Michael lives in a world with others don't think like him and unfortunately children are abused every day by the very people who are suppose to protect them, including family. If society has become a bit overly protective about it there's just cause when child abuse is rampant and the effects are more destructive than we can imagine. So sure, you can stand up against society and beat your own drum but there will be consequences. Now if you can handle those consequences, good for you. If you're ready to face up to accusations and pointing fingers than more power to you. Michael knew this and he basically thumbed his nose at the notion that he could be accused again because he was so staunch in his belief (whatever that may be). He can be innocent to the cows come home, but he was not smart. Most people blamed the accusers the first time but now there's a bit more pressure on Michael because the feeling is that he needs to take responsibility for the part that he played in his own demise. Nothing is ever completely one-sided, so when does he stop playing the victim role and take control of the situation? Taking control by not allowing someone to do this to him yet again. How many times are we suppose to feel sorry/defend/comfort someone who stays in a situation despite the ramifications???? Nobody's going to look at him as a martyr. He's not ending genocide, freeing nations or challenging oppression. He's a guy who wants to continue to live his life the way he wants to and that's fine. But Neverland is not separate from the rest of the U.S. and the world so when things happen he just better be ready to slap his armband on and deal with it. [Edited 5/20/05 6:11am] Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off | |
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squiddyren said: Why must some MJ fanatics have an excuse for EVERYTHING?
It pretty much seems that way, doesn't it? You said it in 10 words--me 5 paragraphs. Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off | |
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So, basically you're doing wrong if you're a non-conformist individual. Great, great world. | |
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Cloudbuster said: So, basically you're doing wrong if you're a non-conformist individual. Great, great world.
If that's what you got from my post, then so be it. Been gone for a minute, now I'm back with the jump off | |
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JackieBlue said: dag said: exactly, you´re right, but that´s NOT MJ´s problem, but the sociaty´s. IT´s the sociaty that´s sick, not MJ! And my point is WHY THE HELL SHOULD HE STOP ACTING THAT WAY??? If we took that approach towards anything, gay ppl would have to live in the closet all their life, just because sociaty thinks they´re sick and we want the sociaty to be open, right? We can´t let ppl who are different hide or stop acting that way, just because society is thinks they´re sick. I think we should defend those ppl against that ignorant sociaty. We should defend them and not say. Oh, they brought it on upon themselves, so they deserve it. You're right, Michael shouldn't have to stop acting that way but don't be surprise if he's accused again in another 10 years. Maybe 5. Just because you're not doing something 'wrong' doesn't always means it's okay. People go to jail every day even though they did nothing 'wrong'.Maybe this is a wake up call for Michael to address some issues in his life. The first time was a whisper in his ear, the second time a tap on the shoulder, if there's a next time it might be too late. Life gave him warnings. Being innocent doesn't mean be ignorant. I don't understand how some fans don't even remotely think that there might be something bizarre with his blatant insistence to continue this behavior. The constant defense is that he's done nothing wrong but what exactly has he done right???? We already know there are evil people out there that conspire and try to extort. We live in a world that is unfair and unjust. That's a given. Nothing new here. Sometimes one has to adhere to societies expectations despite what they feel or think. Michael lives in a world with others don't think like him and unfortunately children are abused every day by the very people who are suppose to protect them, including family. If society has become a bit overly protective about it there's just cause when child abuse is rampant and the effects are more destructive than we can imagine. So sure, you can stand up against society and beat your own drum but there will be consequences. Now if you can handle those consequences, good for you. If you're ready to face up to accusations and pointing fingers than more power to you. Michael knew this and he basically thumbed his nose at the notion that he could be accused again because he was so staunch in his belief (whatever that may be). He can be innocent to the cows come home, but he was not smart. Most people blamed the accusers the first time but now there's a bit more pressure on Michael because the feeling is that he needs to take responsibility for the part that he played in his own demise. Nothing is ever completely one-sided, so when does he stop playing the victim role and take control of the situation? Taking control but not allowing someone to do this to him yet again. How many times are we suppose to feel sorry/defend/comfort someone who stays in a situation despite the ramifications???? Nobody's going to look at him as a martyr. He's not ending genocide, freeing nations or challenging oppression. He's a guy who wants to continue to live his life the way he wants to and that's fine. But Neverland is not separate from the rest of the U.S. and the world so when things happen he just better be ready to slap his armband on and deal with it.  Cloudy,are you listening? | |
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DavidEye said: Cloudy,are you listening? Take the piss all you want, mate. But really you're missing the point. Basically what's being said is that it's ok to bug a guy who is likely not a criminal just because his behaviour is peculiar/different from the norm. Sorry, but I think that is more fucked up than hanging out with a bunch of kids. | |
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I am with cloudy. I just do not think that it´s OK for society to force someone to act in a way that they find appropriate although there´s nothing wrong with it. All I am trying to say is that people should be more respectful of the differences and go after people who actuall DO something wrong, that´s all. Believe me, I don´t apply this rule just to MJ, so it´s not my special treatment for MJ called fanatism.
Anyways, thanks Vainandy for getting your arguments across and having a nice conversation with me without calling me MJ fanatic, which is something a lot of people over here are evidently not capable of.  "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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dag said:[quote] exactly, you´re right, but that´s NOT MJ´s problem, but the sociaty´s. IT´s the sociaty that´s sick, not MJ! Society is sick, Michael Jackson is sick, and Michael jackson's fans are sick too.... | |
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krayzie said:[quote] dag said: exactly, you´re right, but that´s NOT MJ´s problem, but the sociaty´s. IT´s the sociaty that´s sick, not MJ! Society is sick, Michael Jackson is sick, and Michael jackson's fans are sick too....
PREACH! | |
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squiddyren said: Why must some MJ fanatics have an excuse for EVERYTHING?
Because to themselves, Michael Jackson IS Peter Pan!  | |
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meow85 said: dag said: NOT AGAIN!!!!! You know it´s interesting that you can get over being nasty and shocking in a sexual way, but you can´t get over a fact that someone can like hanging around kids in a NON SEXUAL way. I mean what´s wrong with that. You said it right, everyone was created to be equal, so why can´t MJ´s eccentricity, which is hanging around kids, can´t be accepted when apparently it´s not hurting anyone. (don´t get me wrong, I am not defending real pedophiles here, but what´s wrong being around kids?) I don´t have a problem with that. Spending time with kids (and even sharing your bed with them) is not wrong in and of itself, it's the fact that most people WILL see something sinister about that kind of behaviour that's caused the problems. MJ's worked in the entertainment business long enough that he should know by now that how the public perceives a star can make or break them. Yes, there's (probably) nothing wrong with his behaviour, but he should have known to be more careful about it -especially after the first round of allegations. That should have been his wakeup call to either cool it with all the kids hanging around, or be more discreet about it. [Edited 5/20/05 2:03am] See, this is why I think he may have done something wrong. Because, if he was falsely accused in the first case, any "normal" person would have avoided as much contact with children as possible. But not our Mike ... he's back there around kids again, holding the hand of a 12 year old boy on World-wide television. This makes me believe that he's in the grip of an obsession that he can't control, and nothing (not even paying out $20 Million)can loosen it's grip #SOCIETYDEFINESU | |
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Cloudbuster said: vainandy said: I thought Little Richard did come out.
I've heard him call himself a homosexual so I dunno how you can remain in the closet after saying that.  in the t.v. movie (that he approved) about is life, he told his girlfriend he couldn't marry because he wasn't like other men. I thought he said he was bisexual | |
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dag said: 
Couldn´t resist posting them. Oh shit, It's Michael jackson and Elvis Presley's daughter !!!! 
At first, I was thinking it was a pic of two white lesbians chilling together.... PS : Something I always want to know about Presley/Jackson couple, who was the man ??? | |
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vainandy said: This is an excellent post. I totally agree with every bit of it except the highlighted part. It's not that I don't agree with the highlighted part, but more that I can't understand it. I had always wondered if he was asexual but, as I said before, when they found porn, that would mean he is sexually attracted to some gender. I absolutely can't understand how an asexual would become sexually aroused by porn because they have no sexual interest in either gender. If he fantasizes about sex but is afraid to actually do anything, he would still be either gay, straight, or bi. Even a virgin could be gay, straight, or bi because their sexuality would be determined by what they are sexually attracted to whether they act upon it or not. This is a tough one to call. I've been around a lot of different types of people in my lifetime but Michael Jackson has got me stumped. I have truly never seen anyone like him. Hell, he can make you just as confused as he is trying to figure him out. You can be asexual and be sexually aroused by sexual images. Being asexual doesn't mean you have absolutely no sexual desire. It means you do not want to interact in sexual intercourse with anyone of any gender. There are asexuals who have platonic relationships | |
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Society is sick, Michael Jackson is sick, and Michael jackson's fans are sick too....
[snip-sos] As for Michael Jackson's gender preference, I could care less and it really isn't any of our business unless it is illegal then it is our business and the police's business. To be honest, I would be disappointed if Michael was gay because I don't agree with people being gay. I am a christian and being gay is against my religion. Even though, I don't agree with it, doesn't mean that I have or everyone else who shares my belief has a right to discrimate against gays. I've heard people question if Prince was gay. My answer is Michael and Prince are metrosexuals. Not gay but have fashion sense, take care of themselves well(hair etc.) | |
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BoOTyLiCioUs said: Society is sick, Michael Jackson is sick, and Michael jackson's fans are sick too....
[snip-sos] As for Michael Jackson's gender preference, I could care less and it really isn't any of our business unless it is illegal then it is our business and the police's business. To be honest, I would be disappointed if Michael was gay because I don't agree with people being gay. I am a christian and being gay is against my religion. Even though, I don't agree with it, doesn't mean that I have or everyone else who shares my belief has a right to discrimate against gays. I've heard people question if Prince was gay. My answer is Michael and Prince are metrosexuals. Not gay but have fashion sense, take care of themselves well(hair etc.)  | |
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jayaredee said: Remember when Madonna tried to get close to Michael and he started to giggle like a little girl. It intrigued her, cause during the early 90s no one could pick out a gay like Madonna. And she LOVES gays, and worships their culture. She wanted MJ to come out of the closet by hanging out with Jose and Luis (her flamboyant gay dancers) and to dress as a woman in the "In the Closet" video. The project may have occured and Madonna may have succeeded if Janet didn't intervene at that moment. She told Michael to get rid of Madonna. So he did.
Did Madge claim all that in an interview? Just curious. | |
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Society is sick, Michael Jackson is sick, and Michael jackson's fans are sick too....
Some of you guys could learn to attack people´s arguments and not the people. "When Michael Jackson is just singing and dancing, you just think this is an astonishing talent. And he has had this astounding talent all his life, but we want him to be floored as well. We really don´t like the idea that he could have it all." | |
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jayaredee said: krayzie said: Society is sick, Michael Jackson is sick, and Michael jackson's fans are sick too....
PREACH!  | |
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BoOTyLiCioUs said: To be honest, I would be disappointed if Michael was gay because I don't agree with people being gay. I am a christian and being gay is against my religion. Even though, I don't agree with it, doesn't mean that I have or everyone else who shares my belief has a right to discrimate against gays. I've heard people question if Prince was gay. My answer is Michael and Prince are metrosexuals. Not gay but have fashion sense, take care of themselves well(hair etc.)
Yeah, well maybe you ought to be a little more open-minded. Folk don't choose their sexuality but they do choose religion. | |
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Janfriend said: Cloudbuster said: I've heard him call himself a homosexual so I dunno how you can remain in the closet after saying that.
in the t.v. movie (that he approved) about is life, he told his girlfriend he couldn't marry because he wasn't like other men. I thought he said he was bisexualNo, it wasn't even that as I've not seen it. I can't remember the quote exactly but it was something like "If God can save an old homosexual like me then He can save anyone." Or words to that effect. | |
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BoOTyLiCioUs said: Society is sick, Michael Jackson is sick, and Michael jackson's fans are sick too....
[snip-sos] As for Michael Jackson's gender preference, I could care less and it really isn't any of our business unless it is illegal then it is our business and the police's business. To be honest, I would be disappointed if Michael was gay because I don't agree with people being gay. I am a christian and being gay is against my religion. Even though, I don't agree with it, doesn't mean that I have or everyone else who shares my belief has a right to discrimate against gays. I've heard people question if Prince was gay. My answer is Michael and Prince are metrosexuals. Not gay but have fashion sense, take care of themselves well(hair etc.) Have a little respect for other members here. This is MJ we're fighting over. MJ wants us to heal the world and you are doing a bad job of that. Some MJ fan you are  | |
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jayaredee said: BoOTyLiCioUs said: [snip-sos] As for Michael Jackson's gender preference, I could care less and it really isn't any of our business unless it is illegal then it is our business and the police's business. To be honest, I would be disappointed if Michael was gay because I don't agree with people being gay. I am a christian and being gay is against my religion. Even though, I don't agree with it, doesn't mean that I have or everyone else who shares my belief has a right to discrimate against gays. I've heard people question if Prince was gay. My answer is Michael and Prince are metrosexuals. Not gay but have fashion sense, take care of themselves well(hair etc.) Have a little respect for other members here. This is MJ we're fighting over. MJ wants us to heal the world and you are doing a bad job of that. Some MJ fan you are so you're saying "Michael jackson's fans are sick" was respectful? | |
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