From Kool Moe Dee, Ice-T, Wyclef, Cannibus, etc. LL held it down. But, even though I used to bump the song "Jack The Ripper" when it first dropped, I never truly understood the reasons why Kool Moe Dee and so many other rappers pointed him out and dissed him on wax.

For all those that know the reasons for LL's many nemeses, do tell.

cus LL thought he was the Baddest cat out there. personally Rakim woulda ripped him a new asshole and he woulda had ta drop tha mic for life if he tried to touch the 18th letter. all them otha cats was lightweights. the only legend was "Moe".

TheRealFiness said:

So they were jealous?

Adisa said:

oh no its not even that.. see in real hip hop.. when an emcee talks alot of shit he/she is required to back it up. yes i said "real hip hop" cus the shit out now.. doesnt even come close.

TheRealFiness said:

Back then, and even now, the whole persona of the rapper is about being the best MC in the game. So why exactly ( and specifically) was LL singled out by so many others?

Adisa said:

cus he was basically "the new cat" see LL can write good shit.. but he cant freestyle to save his life.he'd lose every battle when it comes to free bomb'n

TheRealFiness said:

And Wyclef can freestyle?

Adisa said:

lol point taken

Adisa said:

LL Vs Canibus, Mike Tyson & Wyclef...and Noami Campbell

This all started when LL wanted 'Bis on his song "4321" with Method Man, Redman & DMX. During a recording session (I think the session for "Another Day Another Dollar" since Bis does the hook on it), Canibus openly admired LL's microphone tattoo and asked L if could get one just like it on his arm. Anyway, later on, the first lines of Canibus's verse on "4321" was originally "Yo, Meth where the Gods at? Yo Red, where the Squad at? Yo L, is that a mic on your arm? Lemme borrow that" and then he goes one to say how he'd fight for mics and bet niggas to death and dead niggas to life, etc etc etc... LL heard this and thought it was a diss seeing how Bis had admired his tattoo. LL then recorded his verse which was a diss response to Canibus. This "pre-mix" soon leaked and ended up on underground mixtapes and created a buzz in the streets. L then called up Bis, and told him that if he changed his verse, then his (LL's) verse would apply to him - however, Canibus thought that LL said he would change his verse if he did, but LL didn't - thats where the misunderstanding happned. So anyway, Canibus goes back to the studio and changes the first lines to how you hear it now ("Im the illest nigga alive, what me prove it / I snatch a crown with you head still attached to it"). Sooooo...the final offfical mix of "4321" was done and Canius heard it and realized that LL didn't change his verse as he thought L said he would do. Canibus called up LL and the discussed the matter - this phone conversation has been leaked to the internet, btw...so on to the battle.

Canibus recorded a diss record called "2nd Round Knockout" featuring Mike Tyson "training" Bis. It was the first single of his anticipated debut album, it had a nice (and hilarious) video and this song would make him a one-hitter he is today. And Wyclef not only produced the song, but he was also in the video playing the referee - thats co-signing. Anyway, LL responsed with "The Ripper Strikes Back" dissing Canibus, Tyson and Wyclef- he even used the syllables in Canibus's name for the hook, LOL! The debate between which song is better varies, but even if Canibus won the battle, LL definately won the war in the long-run. Wyclef repsonded to LL with a quasi-ridiculous "Whats Clef Got To Do With It" (yeah, he acutally sang the chorus as Tina Turner did on her song). At the end of the song, model Naomi Cambell does an outro sayin how she thinks LL is wack and that he needs to just give it up. LL responded to Clef & Naomi with a aight "Rasta Impasta" (very inferior to "The Ripper Strikes Back"). Meanwhile, Canibus was going around doing a bunch of freestyle dissing LL...which LL was would respond to on "Where I Belong" on his GOAT album. But...Canibus first album went gold, but he didn't like Wyclef's style of production nor his direction over his career, so Bis left Clef's label....and did a song dissing Wyclef, saying that he Clef "spoiled" his album. Wyclef responded to Canibus on "However You Want It" on The Ecleftic album. That was that between them. But back to LL....LL did "Where I Belong" responding to Canibus's many diss freestyles, but most of the stuff LL said about Canibus on that song were lies. So Canibus responded back to LL with a four-verse "Rip The Jacker" (done over LL's classic "I'm Back") with lies about him. LL never responded. At this point, the beef had ridiculously restorted to them making up lies about one another so it died after that. LL was riding high in Hollywood, Canibus was riding low on a string of albums released indepedently. Canibus may be a one-hit wonder, but he'll always be remembered that kid that gave LL a run for his money.

LL Vs Jamie Foxx
LL & Jamie got into a fight on the set of Any Given Sunday. It's been squashed though. During a fight scene in the movie, so LL acutally punched Jamie after the director yelled "action", but Jamie didn't seem aware of it though. This scene was acutally used in his movie too. Anyway, after Jamie had recovered from "stars", he got up off the floor and socked LL in his face and took off running. LMAO!!!! Afterwards LL dissed Jamie on "Cant Fuck With Me" on the GOAT album and Jamie did ALOT of standup dissing LL. LOL! They've since squashed it though.
[Edited 5/17/05 15:20pm]
[Edited 5/17/05 15:21pm]
[Edited 5/17/05 21:06pm]

Now, what the hell was Kool Moe Dee's problem?

TheRealFiness said:

Good point.

But "Jack The Ripper" and "To The Breakadawn" were 2 great response records.

I think Canibus and Wyclef officially retired LL as a legit battle rapper with their tracks. "What's Clef Got to Do With It?" was the knockout punch (I disagree with OnionJuice on that one, I can't abide him, but Clef pulled LL's card).

But when talking battle records, few people speak of Common Sense's "I Saw The Bitch In You," which simply eviscerated Ice Cube, who was then one of hip-hop's most menacing MCs.
[Edited 5/18/05 9:32am]

namepeace said:

I said that "Whats Clef Got To Do With It" was quasi-ridiculous - the word "quasi" halfway. What made the song quasi-ridiculous was the chorus. Wyclef sang chorus in the same fashion as "Whats Love Got To Do With" by Tina Turner - damn, that was so gay of him.

But Clef's verses were decent though. But he didnt neccesarily pulled LL's card. Pulling somebody's [hoe] card means to expose them, but Clef didn't expose LL; he just stated the obvious about LL and ridiculed it with decent punchlines and threw in some funny jokes. Overrall, "What's Clef" was nothing more than a jab, not a knockout like "2nd Round Knockout" or "The Ripper Strikes Back".

And you really think Bis & Wyclef retired LL was a legit battle rapper? Canibus maybe, but definately NOT Wyclef - most heads really dont even look at Clef as a legit rapper, period. But its like I said, Im NOT even gonna get into whose battle records I think were better cause everybody has their own opinions. But overall, its obvious that the battle with Canibus helped LL's career.

Common Sense's "Bitch In You" (dissing Cube) is a classic, but we're talkin about LL's fueds though.
[Edited 5/18/05 13:12pm]

OnionJuice said:

Never have I seen such a technical parsing of "pulling one's card" before. I must say that I am genuinely impressed with the advanced level of hip-hop knowledge and parlance. And that's for real, I know you're an expert.

If we're going to get intricate, think of it like this. Clef got the knockout after Canibus worked him over for about 8 or 9 rounds. And if this were pro wrestling, Canibus delivered the finishing move, LL kicked out but couldn't get back to his corner, Clef delivered the bodyslam and the pin.

Don't get me wrong, Clef's joint isn't "Jack The Ripper." But hey, in Bling/post-Bling Era, a singsongy chorus ain't all that out of place. Naomi Campbell didn't really help that much either. But I thought Clef, poseur that he is, pretty much did some work in his verses.

If you say the battle with Canibus helped LL's career, well, I guess, from a commericial standpoint. But quick . . . name a true banger from James Todd Smith since then.

I love LL. He was the prototype for the solo MC, be it Tupac, Redman, Biggie, Em,

The Common shout-out was off-topic but that track deserves all the props it can get.


[Edited 5/18/05 13:54pm]

namepeace said:

Sorry, Im just now gettin back to my crib...

But name just one song that was a banger after all that? Easy. "Ill Bomb" from the Funkflex album (later a bonus track on "GOAT"). It made alot of noise in streets when it first dropped. They wanted more of that LL. But he has had a couple of other post-Canibus bangers though. And even check out from of the songs on GOAT album like "Queens Is" "Cant Fuck With Me" and some others, and "Fo Ha" from the "10" album.

But he hasnt done much of those recently if thats what you mean (like on his latest album).

Moe Dee diss his ass because LL had the nerve to say in a rhyme.."the baddest rapper in the history of rap itself.." A real diss to the true pioneers that came before him...In a freestyle battle...MOE DEE would've eatin' his ass up...Actually Moe Dee murdered LL with "Death Blow" on wax...

PAPAROBBIE said:

Maybe, but then again, alot of rap pioneers have huge egos and they find alot of lil things are disrespectful to them.

Besides, LL said he was the "baddest" rapper in the history of rap itself; had he said that "greatest" rapper in history of rap itself, that would've been a different story. But hey, hiphop is like a sport - there has to be competition. If you claim a title that somebody else claims, you gotta go head up with them on the mic.
[Edited 5/18/05 21:08pm]

PAPAROBBIE said:

Again, that is what being a rapper was/is all about...machismo and claiming to be the best at your craft. Surely this wasn't the real reason for all the animosity on the part of Dee.


I talked to a buddy just a few hours ago and he said that Dee was upset by Cool J saying (in a song) "I'm only 18 making more than your Pops". That sounds like a better if not totally accurate reason for Dee's "concern". But I still want the actual factual reason because Dee's beef with Cool J wasn't about bragging rights or trying to boost sells...it was personal.

OnionJuice said:

That is fair enough and I think you got my point. I have ignored the L for the better part of 10 years, and I think the battle with Canibus and 'Clef illustrated the change in his status. When he was in his prime (nearly 10 years), few if any dared to cross him. But fame, age, and changes in the game altered his standing, at least imho.

Adisa said:

I actually have a DVD with Moe Dee saying WHY he went after LL...BECAUSE LL SAID
that he was "the baddest rapper in the history of rap itself". No other MCs had ever made that claim...not even Moe Dee. LL considers himself the "G.O.A.T." (Greatest Of All Time)...Maybe you should read Moe Dee's book "There's A God On The Mic". He ranks the MCs and grades them according to skills and ability. LL ranks pretty high on his list, so he does respect LL...but back in 87, LL was a young kid claiming that he was the greatest and hadn't proven himself. Have you ever heard the battle betweeb Busy Bee & Kool Moe Dee?

PAPAROBBIE said:

I don't doubt that Dee said that, i just doubt that was the real reason. Afterall, Dee was an unknown rapper (I think) when he went after LL. So it's not like he had established a track record that LL was dissing. And even though LL was still very young when he said that he had just as much (if not more) success than any other rapper in the game. But thanks for the info. Do you know why Ice T was pissed at him too?

Adisa said:

You might wanna do some Hip-Hop homework....Moe Dee was a member of the LENGENDARY TREACHEROUS THREE...you know...the guys that were the peers of little known groups like the Furious Five & Grandmaster Flash...Moe Dee was makin' records and rockin' parties when LL was still in grade school. Look up the Treacherous Three and you tell me if they, Sugar Hill Gang, Busy Bee, Melle Mel, and sequence were "unknown". DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

Death Blow by Kool Moe Dee


To the Break of dawn
To the to the to the
Times up punk
yea yea Time to settle the score
To the break of dawn another dumb move
Ha ha ha this time it's over boy
This is me and you head to head let's go

Here we go beat down round 2
Heads up punk 'cause it all comes down to
Me and you face to face head to head
Mic to mic I like the weak shit you said
To the break of dawn beats nitro
Lyrics weak, say goodnight 'cho
Star Trek shades, man cut the jokes
Let's get serious and go for broke
You still got a lock on my jock like a pitbull
Victor before you pull it off you thought Mr. Pitiful
Here's some mouthwash, g
Your mouth smells like my jockstrap, C-
A-U-S-E, you're rhyme didn't mean
?T-O-D-D?, junior Moe Dee
Stop biting, chewing, swallowing
Who in the hell told you that you could do what you were doing
Raise up son, I need jock relief
Here's a toothpick, now get my jock out your teeth
You swallow it, yea, finish, burp
Now let a real man go to work
'Cause I'm a whip you like your daddy, beat ya like a baby
Sick ya like a dog, dropping lyrics wit rabies
Cut ya like a knife 'cause you're nuthin but hype
You slice and dice and ice twice for life
I'm a treat ya like a hooker punk, change your clothes
Put you on the streets wit ya jingling hoes
Keep talking about me and I'll keep pimping
Just bring me that money and take this last whipping
How can one man be so dumb
You're trying to come off and don't know how to come
You're young and dumb and quick at the tongue
You high strung bum come and get done
I'll do you wit a death blow




(Chorus)
Kill 'em kill 'em
I'll hit ya wit a death blow

My lyrical beatdown will leave ya in a coma
'Cause you can't hang without a high school diploma
Your brain of fatigue, you're out of your league
You're running out of gas and you're tank is on E
Somebody buy him a heart 'cause he's petro
Take you're whipping like a man brother let go
No apologies, tears of violence
Get your black suits 'cause I ain't smiling
I'm shooting the gift of gab, brother you're ripped in half
Soon as the mic is past, you won't live to laugh
If there's laughter, I'll get the last one
You loafed on the lyrics and you caught a bad one
So who's got no style, look at your profile
You can't dance, can't dress and you're so foul
Still wearing played out 4 finger rings
Played out fat gold chains and things
You changed your look now change your gameplan
Trying to dress but you still wear name brand
Brother, you look crazy weak
And it gets worse when we hear you speak
So you ain't got a chance in hell
You'll be known as the late LL
The man who lost one, one too often
Came wit a soft one and went to his coffin
A close casket they won't show ya
When I finish, you're mama won't know ya
'Cause I'm a rip you limb from limb
You tombstone read he had no win
So RIP, Rest in peace, rip 'em
D.I.D., dead indeed, did 'em
A H-I-T, hitman, so whatcha hit 'em wit
A rhyme silencer, I hit 'em wit a death blow

Chorus

If mama said knock me out, come do it
You can't win and that (record scratch) knew it
I'm a send you home in a body bag
Wit the mic in your throat and a jock for a gag
You're out of here, over, finished, all in
And Marly marl can't save you from fallin
'Cause as soon as you came back what did you do
To the break of dawn, another dumb move
You can't go hard, you're just so-so Todd
I'm that type of guy, oh my God
It's gets no rougher comes no weaker
marly hooked the beats so now you need a
Writer to bring you back from hell
Because I'm a rock up L
Low life loser, life like luna
Lafidasical, lispless luna
Tic liver lifeless, living likeness
Lusting longing lyrics like this
Little league, lard larsonist liar
Label ledger, left the leper liar
Bull, lull, lateral learning
Laps language latent lurking
Language, language, local logo
Light laboring, limited local
Now LL's a laughing stock
'Cause I bit that ass to the last stop
I watched you fall like Hitler fell
And now you're down to a broken L
You're records ain't hot and you're shows don't sell
Yo, tell 'em how you fell L, hard as hell
You came back and you thought you had me
But think about it, whos' your daddy

Kill 'em... Big daddy, I don't want none...
I did 'em wit a death blow
To the break of dawn
To the, to the, to the, get him out of here

imo; Kool Mo Dee owned LL with "Lets Go"


Intro

Reporter: So tell me... How do you feel about 'Jack the Ripper'?

[Evil Thriller laughter]

(Get him!)

Verse 1

Want me to get him? Well I got him
My mouth is an Uzi and I shot him
With the hundreds of rhymes and rhythm designed
To make him rewind this time I draw the line
He's mine...just chill
Don't nobody touch him cos Imma get ill
The boy's phony as a three-dollar bill
And this time I shoot to kill
Just like a sucker you took the bait
Now you're like a dead fish on my dish, too late
So party people kick your feet up, I'm about to heat up
You're hungry for a battle, now it's time to eat up
Boy, I'm gonna chew you, cos I knew you was
Talkin' that junk, punk, now Imma do you
The way you should be done, call you my son
Make you say "Daddy, I don't want none"
I've had enough of you actin' tough
You huff, puff, grab your stuff you cream puff bluff
Talk about a battle, but you don't wanna do it
You got yourself into it, you blew it
You egomaniac, I'm a brainiac
You came back with a stone cold plain attack
Your rhymes are weak-wack, how can you speak that?
You need to sneak back to the drawing board Jack...
The Ripper, down with my zipper
You get paid to be a Moe Dee tipster
Tryna knock the way I rock, get off my jock
Imma knock you out the box, let's go...

Let's Go!

Verse 2

Put up or shut up, get up, yeah what up?
Huh, get on the microphone and get cut up
Talk about how your records went double platinum
With those lyrics?! Huh, I laugh at them
So you got paid, take the money you've made
Bet it on yourself, are you afraid?
Money talks, B.S. walks
When I stalk like a hawk a victory is chalked
So put your money where your mouth is, you don't know about this
Battlin's for real men, and I doubt if
You can even hang or give a run for the money
You're just a sucker, and it's funny
How you never ever had a drop of juice in New York
And now you go on tour and try to talk that talk
You try to act like you're a big man, but you're a big fag
Stridin' and hidin' while ridin' my big man
You ain't got a chance in the world
Your records were smokin', but you sound like a girl...
[How you like me now? I'm gettin' busier
I'm double platinum] Hold up, is he a
Man or a girl? What in the world?
You sound like Cheryl the Pearl
And you wanna battle me on the microphone?
Leave that crack alone, let's go...


Let's Go!
I said, Let's Go!
Come on, boy! Let's Go!
Better than me?

Verse 3

Picture that with a Kodak
I don't take no shorts and you know that
I roll hard, run the rap yard, put up your guard
I don't get even, I get odd, Todd
Always one up on ya
And I tried to warn ya
You slept, you took a backstep
Ruined your rep and wept, you should've kept
Your mouth shut, you know what?
You gotta say you're sorry [I'm sorry] So what?
You call me a punk, you wanna see who's soft?
Put the microphone down, let's square-off
You need a hand, you got hands for
Tryna be me, now LL stands for
Lower Level, Lack Lustre
Last Least, Limp Lover
Lousy Lame, Latent Lethargic
Lazy Lemon, Little Logic
Lucky Leech, Liver Lipped
Laborious Louse on a Loser's Lips
Live in Limbo, Lyrical Lapse
Low Life with the loud raps, boy
You can't win, huh, I don't bend
Look what you got yourself in
Just usin' your name I took those L's
Hung 'em on your head and rocked your bells
Now, here we go, blow for blow, let's throw
Rhyme for rhyme, yours and mine, and yo
When it's time to battle rhyme I know
How to make it flow, so let's go
To the ring, rapper's sing and swing
Words and verse, see who deserves to be king
Serve a blow to that ego
As if you didn't know, let's go...

Let's Go!
Let's Go!

Verse 4

How can you say you're the best?
Get put to the test in front of a million and fess
Tried to withdraw because you saw
The juice I got's not like before
Huh, I'm formidable, unforgettable
You're submittable, you look pitiful
Yeah you're headstrong, but you're dead wrong
Wanna survive? Stick with the love songs
Take off your shirt, flex and flirt
And leave the real hard rhymes to the hard rhyme experts
If you don't, boy you'll get hurt
Feel like dirt and have to revert
To comin' on stage butt naked
To make up for what you can't do on record
Open your eyes twice the size and realise
I'm on the rise and you're on the demise
Ostracized by my reprise
Step in my face and watch how that head flies
I mean business and I'm serious
I ain't sellin' out and now here he is
Frontin' and fakin' and talkin' about makin'
The money from money, now don't you know they can
Use your support cos you've got caught
Signed, sealed, delivered, sold and bought
A puppet on a string with no heart
A fool and his money will always part
You used to be a rapper, turned into a businessman
Loafin' on the job and cheatin' the fans
I'm too potent, powerful and spiritual
Mental, emotional, physical and lyrical
You wanna beat me? It's gonna take a miracle
You've got a lock on my jock like a pitbull.


Later

TheRealFiness said:

Amen!


Later

PAPAROBBIE said:

Kool Moe Dee has also claimed (at the time) that LL stole his style - a common paranoia problem in hiphop.

PAPAROBBIE said:

Thanks for the info!

























So Dee was just jealous.

Adisa said:

Call it what you want...But he rocked LL's bells.