That's true. Michael had to fight like hell to get played on MTV, to the point of CBS threatening to pull their white artists' videos off the station.

Prince owes a lot to Rick James also. Rick was fighting with MTV and also publicly bad mouthing Prince. MTV could have cared less about Motown pulling their black artists, they were racist and didn't want them anyway. They might have played Prince's videos strictly to piss Rick off.

I agree. Another thing to think about is that "Off The Wall" became such a major success because it came on the heels of disco. Disco exposed the pop world to a lot of black artists that they normally would not be listening to. After the "death" of disco, radio once again was segregated.

Michael and his brothers' follow up to "Off The Wall" was "Triumph". I remember pop stations playing "Lovely One" a few times but nothing like the amount of airplay that many songs on "Off The Wall" received. Also, R&B stations were pumping "Walk Right Now", "Can You Feel It", and "Heartbreak Hotel" on a regular basis and pop stations weren't playing those songs at all (at least in my area).

I think that "Thriller" would have been a successful R&B album but a pop flop if Michael hadn't fought and scratched his way, with his record company backing him, to get his videos played on MTV, I don't remember hearing any of those songs on pop radio until MTV started playing the videos. R&B radio had already been playing them.

vainandy said:

Great point. Good shit.

Eroticist said:

That depends on how "Big" is defined. If you mean commercially, it would have been MJ, because of his long track record before Thriller. If you mean artistically, then it's Prince, even if you took away Purple Rain and KEPT Thriller.

namepeace said:

I don't know...see, the hard thing is being able to COMPLETELY take Thriller out of the mix...and I don't think people are really looking at it like that.

vainandy said:

You're wrong, Thriller was selling Huge...
Maybe it wouldn't have been the biggest selling album of time, but Thriller was selling a lot more than Off the wall... And would have been a Big Pop success
....

Eroticist said:

Good points, but taking Thriller out of the mix is in your hypothetical.

As to your original comments about MJ not being able to get "high-powered" producers after Thriller, he had and NEEDED only one producer.

Quincy Jones. The argument could be made that he MADE MJ The Superstar of the Decade. People will (vociferously) disagree, but the argument could be made, and I'd agree with it.

Rodney Jerkins, Teddy Riley, and all those producers combined aren't worth one Quincy Jones.

namepeace said:

Quincy never made MJ, he only helped him to produce his albums....
You can't take anybody else and make him the biggest Pop star of all time like that.... NOBODY can do that, even Quincy...
[Edited 5/9/05 14:16pm]

There's no doubt it would have been an R&B success but there's no way in the world it would have become a pop success without MTV and the pop stations playing it. Pop fans would have no way of knowing it existed. I honestly cannot remember one track from the album that was played on pop radio before MTV started playing the videos. No airplay = No success.

krayzie said:

Quincy "helped" MJ produce albums like the other famous MJ "helped" the Bulls win championships.

Quincy's golden touch is unmistakable on Off the Wall, Thriller, and Bad, and many MJ fans underestimate his role because they're afraid it detracts from MJ . . . which, of course, it doesn't.

And you must read carefully what I said.




Not made MJ "period." That would be absurd to say. MJ was a star before hooking up with Quincy and would have been a star without Quincy, but Quincy really launched him into the stratosphere with his stellar production work. MJ needed someone skillful and versatile like him to really make his songs "go."

Ellington wouldn't have been the same without Strayhorn.

Miles wouldn't have been the same without Gil Evans.

MJ wouldn't have been the MEGAstar he is without Quincy.
[Edited 5/9/05 14:50pm]

namepeace said:

You just nailed the point to the ground!

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

vainandy said:

To argument my point, Off the wall (wich was a big success)was certified platinum 6 MONTHS after it was released...

Thriller was certified platinum only 1 month after it was relesaed....Do you believe that ???
And way before Beat it video, the motown 25th anniversary and the Thriller video....

Thriller even WITHOUT no videos would have been a Big and HUGE success.... [Edited 5/9/05 15:19pm]
[Edited 5/9/05 15:20pm]

Remeber though that Michael Jackson was already famous from the J5 years and Off The Wall was a sucess so people accepted him as a solo artist. I think that he would have been very succesful and might have released more music, and maybe even better music because he said he wanted to improve on Off the Wall, and what did we get? If Thriller didn't exist or wasn't as huge, he might have had the drive to keep improving.

krayzie said:

Agreed . . . Thriller was a hit almost a year before the vids hit the air. It dropped in 1982, which many people tend to forget because the vids dropped in '83 and '84. We had that album in my house a year before the vids.

krayzie said:[quote]

vainandy said:

As I said before, I don't remember any of the songs being played on the pop stations in my area. Now, maybe they could have been pumping them hard in other areas of the country, I don't know, but they definately weren't down here until the videos came out.

I do however, remember the R&B stations down here pumping up several songs from the album, especially in the first few weeks, to the point that they were worn out and we were sick of hearing them before 1983 even arrived. They played "Wanna Be Startin' Something" so much that everyone was expecting it to be the second single. Instead, came the single "Billie Jean", the video, and the big blow up with the other videos following and the "Motown 25" special.

I don't know how the charts work and how they distinguish which sales go toward the pop chart and which ones go to the R&B chart (I never could figure that out), but maybe it went platinum so early from R&B stations pumping it so hard so soon after it was released. I don't know but I do know that down here, we were long sick of hearing the album on R&B radio long before the pop stations picked it up.
[b][Edited 5/9/05 19:12pm]

doesn't really matter since the only one person who has had a consitent output and sales since the 80s is Madonna

lilgish said:

Yes, I do!

I just can't understand why 'Thriller' is so huge, though I have it on CD too! It's a really good record (and one of my favourites) but it has not anything extraordinary...it sounds like anyone's record at the time...
If million-selling means absolutely 'highly artistic' then Yes, 'Thriller' is the greatest...

It's only my opinion and I didn't mean to be rude, sorry!

ehuffnsd said:

That would be a great point....if only the topic were about her.

ehuffnsd said:

actually all michaels albums released at the same time as madonna's have all sold much more.

off the wall-18 million vs madonna-8 million (not really the same time but still, both their first albums)
thriller-58 million vs like a virgin-19 million
bad-28 million vs true blue 20 million
dangerous-28 million vs like a prayer 13 million
history 18 million vs ray of light 14 million
invincible 8 million vs american life 3 million (both their latest cd's)

and isn't it funny that 'history' is always called a flop, and 'ray of light' is always called a mega success, when it sold less than history, thats something i will never understand.

and sure i excluded music which also sold 14 million, but i didnt compare erotica (which sold 5 million) to dangerous or bedtime stories (which sold 6 million) to history

i didnt want to make this a michael jackson vs madonna, but ehuffnsd you made me do it.
[Edited 5/10/05 1:50am]

Tessa said:

Is what I meant.

Cheek said:

I understand what you say, I think the same thing about Purple Rain...
To me 1999 kills Purple Rain so far....
Maybe it's a matter of taste...

http://www.prince.org/msg/8/144825

hellomoto said:

Michael may have sold more records than Madonna,but let's be honest...her career is in a healthier state than his is right now.She doesn't have the "baggage" that he is forced to carry around.

Slash said:

Got it!

u r obessed with madonna. She has no career now, sorry to break it to u. Funny how Number ones sold 7 million while American Life only sold what 600,000 copies.

BoOTyLiCioUs said:

Actually, I think American Life sold around 4 or 5 million worldwide. So not too bad.
Still, that's about half of what Invincible sold. Some flop.

BoOTyLiCioUs said:

And what about her sold-out Re-Invention tour, hah?

Cheek said:

So much for a woman with no career

Exactly! Dangerous was atleast as good as Q-produced albums and MORE diverse than them. And producers involved with Dangerous dont make one Quincy like you said. It should give an idea of MJ's musical talent

Maybe because she charged 100-250 dollars for a ticket..thats why it made so much money. We are talkin about Michael Jackson and Prince..not that ugly skank named Madonna. I like Madonna but some people need to get their head out of her ass and not talk about her every thread.