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Reply #60 posted 04/26/02 11:53am

ZaZa

I agree with you 100% that people were upset over the Beatles catalog being used in TV ads. I always thought their arguements weak - if hearing a song in a TV commercial ruined a song for you then I think you should turn off the TV because it has WAY too much influence over your perception of the world. Plus you are putting way too much importance on a song. But I don't see any evidence that race has any part in it. Who ever sold those songs for commercial purposes - be they black or white - was going to get grief. Eric Clapton got a load of shit for selling a song for a beer ad. The media just has this idea that songs & musicians from the 60's & 70's should be above using their music in ads. Its just a bug up their ass. Plus McCartney bitching only added fuel to the fire. I just don't see any evidence that its race related.
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Reply #61 posted 04/26/02 12:44pm

Brother915

DavidEye said:

If Michael Jackson came to ME for career advice,this is what I would tell him...


***Drop the "King Of Pop" moniker---One of my favorite artists,Marc Anthony,recently said in an interview that he doesn't want to be the "King" of anything."When you're the king,there's nothing else to strive for",he said.So,why would MJ wanna be the "King Of Pop"? And,when you think about it,that's actually a restricting title.It limits him to being ONLY a "pop" artist,with no chance to ever branch out and try something new.Surely MJ wants more than that?

***No more "big name" producers---Michaels' career strategy these days is really simple.He takes a few years off,then looks at the Billboard charts,and calls up all the "hot" producers to begin work on a new album.He spends a few more years (and several millions) working with all these high-priced producers,then finally releases the album.This strategy is tired and ineffective.STOP IT NOW,Mike!!!

***Work with an "unknown" producer---I hate to keep using her as an example...lol...but Madonna is doing things the right way.On her last CD,she worked with the unknown Mirwais,and created a stunning album.Before that,she worked with William Orbit (who wasn't exactly known as a "hot" hitmaking producer) and created the 'Ray Of Light' CD.Mike should travel the world,listen to different types of music,hang out in European nightclubs,meet different collaborators and musicians.Find *ONE* unknown producer,lock himself into a studio with him for a few months (notice I said "months" and not years...lol...),and pretend the two of you are scientists in a lab.Experiment,try new stuff,STOP playing it safe all the time.Make an album that is truly "dangerous" for once!

***Write the lyrics yourself!!---Mike is a great songwriter,but lately,he's become lazy.I want an album that *DEFINES* who he really is as a person.I want personal,introspective,soul-baring lyrics for once.Even though Mike has been around since the early 70s,the world STILL doesn't know who and what he is.He's like an alien.Change this perception with a strong album that answers all those lagging questions.

***Be Realistic---Face the music.1983 is over.You will NEVER sell records like in the 'Thriller' days.Stop obsessing about huge record sales.DO NOT spend $30 Million making an album.That is a dumb career move.Get a grip on reality.You do NOT have to "top" yourself".You did the impossible,you sold 26 million copies of 'Thriller' in the US (50 million total worldwide).You can relax and be proud of that amazing achievement.But,it won't happen again so just accept and move on.


***After Sony??---Mike's deal with Sony is just about over.He can move on and go elsewhere.He will have to decide what to do.I suggest he record a new album first (in the manner which I decribed above...lol)and use that album as a "bargaining tool" when discussing a new deal with another label.Let these record execs know where you are headed musically.Tell them that,if they're expecting a repeat of the Sony years,they can forget it.Show them that you wanna be taken seriously as an artist (it's obvious that,after the success of "Thriller",Sony looked at MJ as a hit-making machine and nothing more).Or,he could start an independent label (rumors suggest that he may do this).Either way,after the 'Invincible' debacle,he should feel more MOTIVATED and excited about where he's headed next.When your back is up against the wall,you should kick ass and do some real damage (I'm sure Prince would agree with that statement...lol..).
[This message was edited Thu Apr 25 6:39:06 PDT 2002 by DavidEye]




Awesome post Davideye. I really have nothing to add to this. I would like to say that there have been little "sprinkles" of introspection in Jackson's work throughout the years but not nearly enough. Some of Mike's best work in his career have been works of introspection. Take example the great song....."That's What You Get (For Being Polite"from The Jacksons' 1978 album "Destiny". I kind of figured listening to this stellar song back in 78' that this was autobiographical. Consider these lyrics.....

Jack still cries day and night
Jack's not happy with his life
He wants to do this he want to do that


He then goes on to state the measures he takes to be loved.

More lyrics.....

He tries so hard to get it right
He wants to be what he is not
Love's not harsh....love's not bad
What's the story cause love is so sad.....(background vocals..."he wants to be so bad")

He wants to be so.....
All the time getting in things he can't get out
Something deep inside of him..eating up the pride in him
That makes him do things for ALL the girls
That's what you get for being polite.


Could Mike talking about the torment he is going through internally to be accepted by music fans?????

Could he be talking about trials and tribulations to be loved by his family????

No one really knows, but one can surely pick up on some autobiographical references in the song. MJ himself went on record in his autobiography "Moonwalker" that this song was the results of some true life experiences.

If I had to pick a list of Mike's 5 greatest acheivements, this song would surely be in the top 5. I don't care about about all of his POP hit singles. TWYGFBP is one of Mike's greatest pieces. This is what we need more of from Mike. The Mike that created this piece was truly BAD!!!. And that GOOD!!!!!

* Brother 9/15 aka CR3
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Reply #62 posted 04/26/02 12:48pm

Abrazo

zaza said

if hearing a song in a TV commercial ruined a song for you then I think you should turn off the TV because it has WAY too much influence over your perception of the world. Plus you are putting way too much importance on a song.


hmmmm... You better not tell Prince or his hardcore fans that! lol... that's blasphemy...

I think all those MJ fans trying to defend him should try and look at the situation reversed... what if MJ lost all his rights to who knows who? Would you be saying: Mike shut up and accept the fact that you don't own them anymore? No of course not, then y'all be yelling at the party that bought those rights...

And concerning the "race" element... I guess that's just something typical American to always bring in the matter of race in the dispute... sure you have a 'black'(duh) man MJ who is even named 'the King of pop'... and you have a white man Paul McCartney...who deserves the title of being a member of the 'greatest band' of all time the Beatles, sure lots of people make a race issue out of it... Then there is of course a large media company Sony who is of course only out for the money and putting the black race down so the white can stay superiour...as if that is something new...zzzz


-
[This message was edited Fri Apr 26 5:52:08 PDT 2002 by Abrazo]
You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #63 posted 04/26/02 1:08pm

DavidEye

Brother915....of course,I agree with your comments too:)

I've been a MJ fan since the early 70s,when he and his brothers were giving us all those great songs.But lately,I'm ashamed at his approach to creating music these days.I like 'Invincible' (except for maybe 4 tracks),but I can't believe ANYONE would pay $30 million just to make an album!! That shows that Michael is way out-of-touch with reality.You can't "buy" artistic inspiration.He really needs to do the things I suggested and maybe,just maybe,he could turn things around.I'm beginning to lose hope.
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Reply #64 posted 04/26/02 1:48pm

Brother915

ALSO HOW ABOUT A MJ UNPLUGGED ALBUM!!!

You would be surprised how this could work. As a matter of fact Mike could come up with some nice strip down arrangements of some of his best songs and maybe a new song or two and just get on stage in front of a small audience(No ladies passing out screaming. No MEN passing out screaming). Just a small audience in an intimate environment. Can you imagine him dusting off a gem like "Push Me Away"from the Tha Jacksons album "Destiny"and peforming a nice acoustic piece of this song with Carlos Santanta playing the acoustic pieces on his acoutic guitar, THIS COULD WORK .As I've stated before, Mike's reputation as a DANCE ARTIST has concealed a secret weapon in his artistry...his vocal skills on a ballad. Then he could take that creativity and attitude to the lab and make that great artistic,introspective album that David was talking about. He can do it he just got to get to it and stop focusing on sales. That's all he seems to care about. Everybody from Quincy Jones to Stevie Wonder have been trying to state to Mike that this is a detriment to his artistry. If he'd only listen

* Brother 9/15 aka CR3
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Reply #65 posted 04/26/02 1:50pm

ZaZa

I would hope Jackson doesn't lose control of the music publishing. He was the highest bidder -plain & simple. McCartney couldn't get Yoko on his side & he lost out. Tough - thats life. McCartney screams he lost The Beatles catalog while he buys other songwriters catalogs.
Jackson has sold Beatles songs to be used in commercials but these are high quality commercials. Paperback Writer is not turning up as a song for a used bookstore - Jackson does keep a quality control on the use of these songs. When was the last time you heard a Beatles song used for a Target commercial?
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Reply #66 posted 04/27/02 11:01am

Abrazo

ZaZa said:

I would hope Jackson doesn't lose control of the music publishing. He was the highest bidder -plain & simple. McCartney couldn't get Yoko on his side & he lost out. Tough - thats life. McCartney screams he lost The Beatles catalog while he buys other songwriters catalogs.
Jackson has sold Beatles songs to be used in commercials but these are high quality commercials. Paperback Writer is not turning up as a song for a used bookstore - Jackson does keep a quality control on the use of these songs. When was the last time you heard a Beatles song used for a Target commercial?


hmmmm.... he was the highest bidder... yeah so what? The point is that he owns the publishing rights to music he didn't create and gives out licenses to very rich companies to use this music in commercials. So he 1) owns something that shouldn't belong to him in the 1st place, 2) he uses this music for commercialisation and 3) he makes mony off it.

Yeah sure it's all legally okay, but that doesn't take away the disgrace he is doing to these songs in the eyes of many people that love the music from the Beatles.


-
[This message was edited Sat Apr 27 4:03:30 PDT 2002 by Abrazo]
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Reply #67 posted 04/27/02 8:55pm

Supernova

avatar

ZaZa said:

Fans of Michael Jackson are planning a protest against Sony Records because Sony has discontinued promotion for Invincible, Jacksons latest CD.


Laughable.

But fanatics have to have their priorities in order, I suppose.rolleyes

If this is true these people have WAAAAAYYYY too much time on their hands.
[This message was edited Thu May 2 17:33:32 PDT 2002 by Supernova]
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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Reply #68 posted 04/28/02 11:23am

2dawn

Thanks Brother915 and David for those intelligent comments!!!
I couldn't agree more....

Some people seem to ignore Mj past achievements and judge him like he's just come out.Stupid!! And althrough Invincible isn't a masterpiece it has its great moments. I know it's cool to bash Mj and his work, so sad.

All Mj's closet fans out there: come out (lol). I'm a proud fan for 20 years.
Adore Prince 2.
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Reply #69 posted 04/29/02 12:50am

serotonin

avatar

Cloudbuster said:

Invincible is Michael's best since Thriller,

Prince's last decent album was The Truth (5 yrs ago)

Go Figure!

If Prince spent more time putting all his good songs on one album he'd probably still have a chart career.

Stop hating on Mike just b'cos he can still sell.

Jealousy, eh?
[This message was edited Thu Apr 25 14:13:33 PDT 2002 by Cloudbuster]


if u feel that way about prince then y r u on Prince.org?
If I Could B Muse 2 the Pharaoh...
~C10 H12 N2 O~
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Reply #70 posted 04/29/02 10:24am

DavidEye

Brother915 said:

ALSO HOW ABOUT A MJ UNPLUGGED ALBUM!!!

You would be surprised how this could work. As a matter of fact Mike could come up with some nice strip down arrangements of some of his best songs and maybe a new song or two and just get on stage in front of a small audience(No ladies passing out screaming. No MEN passing out screaming). Just a small audience in an intimate environment. Can you imagine him dusting off a gem like "Push Me Away"from the Tha Jacksons album "Destiny"and peforming a nice acoustic piece of this song with Carlos Santanta playing the acoustic pieces on his acoutic guitar, THIS COULD WORK .As I've stated before, Mike's reputation as a DANCE ARTIST has concealed a secret weapon in his artistry...his vocal skills on a ballad. Then he could take that creativity and attitude to the lab and make that great artistic,introspective album that David was talking about. He can do it he just got to get to it and stop focusing on sales. That's all he seems to care about. Everybody from Quincy Jones to Stevie Wonder have been trying to state to Mike that this is a detriment to his artistry. If he'd only listen

* Brother 9/15 aka CR3




Funny you would say this.Edna Gunderson (music critic for USA Today) recently suggested that Michael should "scale back and do an Unplugged".I think the general consensus is,Mike needs to GET BACK TO BASICS and forget about the huge budgets,"hot" producers,and expensive videos.Those things have a way of hiding his real talents.
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Reply #71 posted 04/29/02 10:39pm

AshK

serotonin said:

Cloudbuster said:

Invincible is Michael's best since Thriller,

Prince's last decent album was The Truth (5 yrs ago)

Go Figure!

If Prince spent more time putting all his good songs on one album he'd probably still have a chart career.

Stop hating on Mike just b'cos he can still sell.

Jealousy, eh?
[This message was edited Thu Apr 25 14:13:33 PDT 2002 by Cloudbuster]


if u feel that way about prince then y r u on Prince.org?


* agrees with serotonin *
plus, if mike 'can still sell' then surely his fans need not go to so much trouble? invincible did not sell like his last albums, it might be because its had some awful reviews, ppl hate it, its a shit album etc or cos of Sony. either way you'll never really know now. personally I like invincible but it no way competes with his other albums.there are some really weak tracks on there IMO, perhaps mj should be les concerened with sales and just concentrate on the music, but thats just me lol,
either way Sony's treatment of mj is unfair.
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Reply #72 posted 04/30/02 2:45pm

betra

avatar

ALSO HOW ABOUT A MJ UNPLUGGED ALBUM!!!


He needed that years ago.
Last year around Invincible's release, MJ mentioned he is going to move in that direction next. About time.
---------
.: your wit belongs here :.
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Reply #73 posted 04/30/02 6:32pm

purpleone

avatar

Mike can't do un unplugged no more.. why? two words:

HIS FACE.

he can't have a camera constantly pointed at his face. if you saw his 30th anniversary show last september you'd know why. i've wanted him to do that for a long time, but it's too late now.. he should have done it in '95 after releasing 'history'. too bad.
don't need no reefer, don't need cocaine
purple music does the same to my brain
i'm high, so high
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Reply #74 posted 04/30/02 7:36pm

Brother915

purpleone said:

Mike can't do un unplugged no more.. why? two words:

HIS FACE.

he can't have a camera constantly pointed at his face. if you saw his 30th anniversary show last september you'd know why. i've wanted him to do that for a long time, but it's too late now.. he should have done it in '95 after releasing 'history'. too bad.



Interesting comments, even though Mike is slated to do a movie, there were "Hollywood insiders" a few years ago saying that Mike is not marketable in Hollywood. There were saying because of his "image" he wouldn't transfer very well on the big screen. This was in the early 90's.

Mike has been talking about doing movies for years every since "The Wiz". He has to this day only for ONE full length movie to his credit that he has starred in. He got good reviews for his role as the scarecrow in "The Wiz". He's due to be in the "Men In Black" sequel later this year.

* Brother 9/15 aka CR3
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Reply #75 posted 04/30/02 8:03pm

purpleone

avatar

..he's due to be in the "Men In Black" sequel later this year.

but don't get all excited; the role ain't all that promising and not to be takin' seriously is what i heard.
don't need no reefer, don't need cocaine
purple music does the same to my brain
i'm high, so high
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Reply #76 posted 05/01/02 12:59pm

DavidEye

purpleone said:

..he's due to be in the "Men In Black" sequel later this year.

but don't get all excited; the role ain't all that promising and not to be takin' seriously is what i heard.



Actually,the role will be more involved than what was originally believed."We shot five hours of material",director Barry Sonnefeld says."Michael is extremely funny in this film.He's gonna surprise alot of people".
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Reply #77 posted 05/02/02 7:38am

maddmaxx1975

ah aha ah ah ah !!!

Invincible is far away his best Album ever !!!!!


it's better than Dangerous and Better than Thriller...

Just listen to it !

some here talk about it but they did not hear it !
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Reply #78 posted 05/02/02 10:55am

purpleone

avatar

maddmaxx1975 said:



Invincible is far away his best Album ever..

your crazy.. that's what you are, punchy.
don't need no reefer, don't need cocaine
purple music does the same to my brain
i'm high, so high
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Reply #79 posted 05/02/02 10:56am

purpleone

avatar

DavidEye said:

Actually,the role will be more involved than what was originally believed."We shot five hours of material",director Barry Sonnefeld says."Michael is extremely funny in this film.He's gonna surprise alot of people".

hm, interesting..
don't need no reefer, don't need cocaine
purple music does the same to my brain
i'm high, so high
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Reply #80 posted 05/02/02 3:25pm

maddmaxx1975

Invinciblke is completely under rated by people...

and that comes from his own company : Sony.

since MJ decided to leave this Major...Sony makes people believe that it's not a good album....

pfffff


Listen to IT really and tell me !
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Reply #81 posted 05/02/02 9:18pm

Cloudbuster

avatar

.
[This message was edited Sat Apr 24 7:58:16 2004 by Cloudbuster]
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Reply #82 posted 05/04/02 12:21pm

Amaya

avatar

EvilWhiteMale said:

Why promote a shitty album?



i didnt even know he had a new cd out. well i guess thats why his scaryness has been on all the tv shows.
he is scary!
Amaya
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Reply #83 posted 05/04/02 12:22pm

Amaya

avatar

bluelight said:

btw,
hammer
MJ
mr.green

funny!!!!!
Amaya
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Reply #84 posted 05/04/02 4:48pm

ZaZa

Want to see something scary????
Pick up the new People mag - the most beautiful people issue - and look in the front for a picture of MJ with Bill Clinton. Scarier than Thriller.
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Reply #85 posted 05/06/02 2:27pm

Brother915

Not to keep bringing this MJ thing back up , but my beef with Mike is his philosophical approach to making music. To me, MJ doesn't take the art of recording seriously enough to me. He'll go in the studio with some material, to do some basic recording. Then, he takes 9 to 10 months off. Go invest in some amusement parks, come back to the studio, write and record some more. Then he stops work on his project then comes back to the studio. There is no way that it takes 5 years to record an album. But with Mike that is the case, because he wastes so much time doing other things instead of focusing on his album project. I think from a marketing stanpoint this may be beneficial. If you've been away for 5 years, your fan base will be so hungry for a new release, that your album will be guaranteed at least 1 million in sales, based upon the fact that you're been away for so long alone. However this can be a detriment of sorts, especially if the album, from a artistic standpoint doesn't measure to the time it tool recording. There were lots of people upset with the Bad album. I recalled my aunt saying in 87' when the record came out...."Michael took 5 years to come out with THIS crap. Personally I liked the "Bad" album, but a lot of people felt that it was a let down considering the amount of time that went into it.

As I've said before, Mike needs to just knuckle down and make a raw edgy album. Stop worrying about perfecting every beat and every piece of music on the project. Mike is too clean and polished. Bad, Dangerous and HISTORY are good records(I think BAD is the best out of that trilogy)But given Mike's great work with his brothers on Epic Records(albums like DESTINY and TRIUMPH) and the stunning revelations of his talents on the masterpiece OFF THE WALL,Michael's decision to settle for SALES SALES and more SALES is music's greatest artistic loss.

* Brother 9/15 aka CR3
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Reply #86 posted 05/07/02 11:06am

DavidEye

I agree.Mike needs to take a whole new approach to making albums.He's had the same,tired strategy for years.He takes three years off,then looks at the Billboard charts,calls up all the "hot" producers of the moment,and then spends another two years recording new songs.I enjoy his albums regardless,but I feel it's time for him to go in another,bold direction for once.

The news that he is directing his first film is a good sign.It shows that he is at least starting to branch out and try something new.There is talk that he wants to direct a musical someday.He's certainly qualified,since his own music videos are basically "mini-musicals" anyway.
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Reply #87 posted 05/10/02 10:53am

betra

avatar

DavidEye said:

I agree.Mike needs to take a whole new approach to making albums.He's had the same,tired strategy for years.He takes three years off,then looks at the Billboard charts,calls up all the "hot" producers of the moment,and then spends another two years recording new songs.I enjoy his albums regardless,but I feel it's time for him to go in another,bold direction for once.


Definitely. I'm sure he thinks what he's doing is bold, but it just ain't. He had to release this album though...if anything to get the aftertaste of History away. I think it makes it clear he's moving on, if nothing else.
---------
.: your wit belongs here :.
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Reply #88 posted 05/14/02 2:35am

Metalbabe699

God damn! there sure are a lot of MJ haters on this board...i really don't see the reason why. MJ is one hell of a talent and versatile (i'm not just talkin about music)...MJ, along with Prince are both one of my all time favorite artists/entertainers. They are both eccentric so i don't know why some of you people are calling MJ these crazy names...

And i don't know what some of you guys are smokin, but i LOVE Invincible! I admit some of his songs are too commercial...particularly the RJ produced tracks...but songs such as Speechless (produced by MJ)...Butterflies...Whatever Happens...Privacy...2000 Watts...etc...are all awesome songs! it would be cool if MJ stuck to producing more songs on his own, because personally, i LOVE his self-produced and written songs more than his other songs like on the Dangerous album and HIStory. I also love the songs he has written and co-produced with Quincy as well.

Anyway...please stop doggin MJ...EW didn't rank him the 8th top entertainer in the world for no reason...Prince ranked like #60 on the list...but that's only because Prince is more of a musician than an entertainer. Both are talented men in their own ways...
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Reply #89 posted 05/14/02 10:20am

sevenfan

Nice to see some inteligent discussion on MJ away from the idiotic bashing (which is going on equally on both sides).
I think almost everything has been said in that matter, so I won't bore you with my 2 cents, but I'd like to say something about the poor poor PaulMcCartney and the Beatles songs catalogue.
Back in the days when all the Beatles were alive and bangin they were makin BIG money... they ended up having HUGE tax bills (I do love britain, but our government can be really f**ked up with taxes). Anyway, after consulting some "inteligent" people, Lennon and McCartney decided to sell off their rights to their songs to get away from the whole income-tax thing (forgive me, if I'm wrong with the details, it's been ages since I've read that.).
They made the conscious decision to give away their rights for money.
So I don't see what's so evil in MJ having the copyrights?
They sold it, he bought it (even if not dircetly FROM them) and that's just the way it is. It's not like they've been tricked out of it or anything.
--

Paul... or is it? I dunno.
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Forums > Music: Non-Prince > Michael Jackson Fans Unite Against Evil!!!