This discussion started in the "5 greatest songs only you know" thread.

Harlepolis, theAudience and I were discussing how no one pays attention to jazz, and how younger kids and adults (particularly black ones) have turned away from it. This is nothing new, it's been happening ever since rock n'roll burst on the scene well over 50 years ago. But with the hip-hop revolution, jazz has become even less relevant to a large group of folk. Sales numbers bear it out. Blue Note, one of the greatest labels ever, has a non-jazz artist as its franchise player, otherwise, it doesn't sell.

What does it take to get into jazz? A good teacher.

I can't play note the first. Growing up, we listened to everything but jazz, although my grandfather was an aficionado. He owned thousands of CDs, LPs and reel-to-reels, and was posting messages on the "ancient" bulletin boards of the early 90's.

Before my senior year in college, we visited my grandparents, and my grandfather took one look at my CDs, and said, "come in here, let me expose you to some real music." And he played me some Charlie Parker and Miles records, and told stories about going to hear these greats at Birdland and other places. So I fiddled around with some Duke Ellington and John Coltrane in the next few years, found a couple of good radio stations, and just listened. Then I began picking up the albums of the sidemen on those records. And readingaand watching. And so on. Now, 13 years after first listening in, I truly love it and kinda even understand it.

So connecting people with jazz -- true jazz -- is not any different from anything else. People who love jazz have to share their love of it with someone else. Jazz fans have to get over themselves and have the guts and patience to introduce others to it. Falling in love with jazz doesn't happen overnight. But if I can "get" it, anyone can.

You have to listen to it, love it, learn it, live it.

What does it take to get into jazz?

Open-mindedness

In my case, thats a good thing about being a Libra,,,you can find at least one thing you dig about something and when it comes to jazz, chances are you gonna find 'LOT of things out of that. Not to mention, it helps even more when you're from Harlem.

I'm different than you, namepeace. Daddy fed jazz into our brains eversince I was born, it didn't matter to me,,I didn't deslike it or like it,,it was just THERE,,background music. The only thing outside jazz I had was Chaka Khan, Patrice Rushen & Marvin Gaye which my mother used to play in the kitchen(in addition to the late 80's R&B/Soul albums that I used to buy whenever I afforded 'em, from Angela Winbush to Mel'isa Morgan to the whole gang).

I neva got FULLY into jazz untill I made it to highschool, thanx to Ms.Regie O'Neal. We got a lecture about Billie, Ella & Sarah full of video footages, songs and old reports.

I went back home right after that day and went through my daddy's sacks of records and stumbled on Billie Holiday's mid-30's recordings when she worked with small combos led by Pianist Teddy Wilson,,,,,that was the OFFICIAL start for Harle's jazz addiction.

I dug the sidemen too(esp Teddy Wilson since I'm a pianist too) after that I stumbled on a Duke Ellington record called 'The Duke Loves You Madly' which is a compilation of his Cotton Club pre4mances and his latter work with Billy Strahorn, after that I found an ol' record which consists of famous piano instrumentals by the biggest 4 stride pianists(Fats Waller, James P. Johnson, Willie 'The Lion' Smith & Art Tatum) anyway to make looooong ass story short lol one thing led to another,,,and here I'm.

Lookin' back, I can understand my father's attachment to jazz. I'm not gonna analyze it, its just there for you to absorb(if you're willing to).

Nice post, Namepeace. I feel this way about all genres of music. People need to appreciate that there's so much more to music than what is represented on the charts.
I totally agree that we need to share the music. Spread it around. My dad always listened to Al Jarreau, David Sanborn, Wynton Marsalis and lots of local jazz artists. My mother pretty much listened to everything, so they both had an influence on me that way and it allowed me to have an open mind.

I've freaked out many of my friends by trying to turn them on to some of Bjork's stuff, or something by Miles, like Sketches of Spain, even Radiohead. I've received varied results, but I'm not discouraged. My wife digs a lot of Radiohead now because of me. I even turned my mom on to Bjork (she loves Homogenic ), and I felt like a champ for accomplishing that.
Sometimes it helps if we just play it without telling them who it is. I was playing Xpectation in the car one night, and my wife was like; "who's this? This is really nice." I said; "it's Prince & his band, babe." She was a little surprised, but hey, good music is good music.

Sometimes, I think the onus is ultimately on the listener and whether or not they really want to learn about something new.
I can't count how many times I've gone up and down the dial only to stop at the classical station. Nothing else interesting was on.
Today we have to look harder than ever for something that turns us on and gets that mind working. Just how many folks are willing to do that is the question.
We should still do our part though, and keep sharing the good stuff.
[Edited 12/31/04 11:46am]

Great comments.

I'm typing up something as fast as I can. This having to work thing is getting in the way.

In the meantime, check my sig.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm
[Edited 12/31/04 11:45am]

For some people, you have to be into the math side of music theory, or be willing to spend lots of money on obscure free jazz in order to impress your friends.

I'm just saying. Lots of jazz is created by musicians, for musicians, and these musicians appreciate the theory behind the notes rather than the feeling. It really depends on the type of jazz. I dig "Sun Ship" not for the notes Coltrane and Tyner are playing, but for the fact that it's the most freaked-out thing I've ever heard that I actually like, and Coltrane plays so fast it sounds like he has two saxophones going at once. And I'm sure some people claim to really, truly understand the meaning behind "Interstellar Space," even if the true meaning is just Trane and what's his name freaking out for no good reason.

I'm also sick of the teaching aspect of jazz, like you have to learn from it. Look at the language you guys are using to describe jazz: "Understand." "Learn." "Gets that mind working." "Teacher." "Fed." I have to believe that people suffer through jazz in order to feel smarter about themselves.

That's fine for some people. There seems to be an incredible amount of snobbery in jazz. Read namepeace's first post - he "kinda even understands it." Who cares? Do you enjoy it? Does it entertain you? Then you like jazz. It's that simple. The snobbery is so pervasive that people feel compelled to profess understanding, some deep spiritual realization of jazz, when so often, it's just, "I played this Trane lick here, then threw in some Brecker for the fusion fans and ended with some Coleman to impress my sax teacher," and there is no meaning behind it. But if it sounds good and you like it, that's all that matters.
[Edited 12/31/04 11:56am]

For me... I didn't have to "learn" to like jazz... I loved it from my first exposure to it.... First with people like Jean Luc Ponty and Stanley Clarke.... To Chick Corea and Michael Franks... Now the older I get,( mid thirties) the further back I reach to Coltrane and Dizzy. But for a beginner, It is a bit harder. It does take a bit of study in order to appreciate it. I don't mean "study" in the sense of learning to play a particular instrument yourself , but it helps to have a idea of what the muscian is doing. All that is required from today Pop and hip hop is to have a simple beat to bob your head to.there is no free flow or improv. It's spoon fed....But when I try to initiate people, It helps to know where they're coming from in their musical taste, to better suit the many varied kind of jazz there are. When people say they don't like Jazz, I ask them if they like Sade...(and who dosen't?)Then I ask them what kind of music ("Is it a crime?) is.When they learn that that song is straight from Billie or Ella book, I have a little easier time. Then I can point out the jazzy elements in Brand New Heavies, Jamiroquai and Sting. But most of all how they must avoid the "Antichrist of Jazz" Kenny G.!!!

What we're talking about is probably the 2nd big artistic-disconnect made by many blacks.
The 1st being Rock&Roll. But this is a sociological discussion for another thread.

The new "jazz-genre" commonly known as Smooth jazz (or as I like to call it Snooze jazz) may have been born out of the popularity of specific tunes from records like Mister Magic (Grover Washington)'75, Breezin' (George Benson) '76 and Feels So Good (Chuck Mangione) '77. The tunes one will generally hear from this new genre are basically R&B/Funk grooves that are lightly improvised over by a soloist. The fact that the rhythm section is so static and the improvisation so restrained is what makes many cringe at the attachment of the Jazz handle. To confuse the issue even further, these same stations include in their playlists artists like George Michael, Phil Collins and Smokey Robinson among other even stranger additions. I've even heard Spandau Ballet played on one of these stations. Spandau Ballet!!! Come on now.

The introduction I had to Jazz was different than what namepeace described.
My Dad was a fanatic of the bebop era. I heard this music ever since I can remember.
That being the case, it has never sounded strange or became something I had to learn to listen to. Did I appreciate it initially? No. I naturally gravitated to the popular music of my generation. However later in life, when I got around people that were real musicians as opposed to pop stars, it became very clear that there was a different mindset and dedication to one's instrument required if an individual decided to become a Jazz musician. But even if I didn't have this experience, why wouldn't I want to learn about this uniquely American art form.
Oh that's right, it might take a little effort. How silly of me.

One of things that I enjoy about Jazz is that to play it well, there must be time and practice devoted to learning the instrument. And to take it a step further so that there is separation from a classical musician (who must also have the aforementioned skills), you must learn to improvise on this instrument and hopefully develope your own "voice". You can't just pick up an instrument and in a matter of months become the darling of MTV. Some may pose the argument that the extreme or avant garde Jazz artists sound like they don't know what they're doing with the instrument. But even the extreme players (hmmm, Interstellar Space Coltrane for example) can be traced back to very traditional modes of the art (i.e. Stardust). Which lets you know they didn't start at "Z". There actually was an "A" toward the beginning of their career. Another thing I enjoy is that there is always the possibility that the interaction of the musicians will spontaneously create something unique.

What troubles me is when someone approaches me, who knows that I listen to Jazz, and a converstion like this occurs (and this actually happened)

Hey guess what?
I give up. What?
I just bought a Jazz album.
Oh really, what did you get?
The new Kenny G CD.
Aah huh, that's nice.

Now I don't blame Kenny G for this. As a matter of fact I don't down any musician who can make a decent living playing music regardless of what style they play. This is more the fault of some marketing moron who has figured out a way to rename what used to be called easy-listening radio stations to the hipper sounding Smooth jazz moniker.

Do I expect everyone who professes to be a music fan to put out the effort to learn all the intricacies of Jazz. No I do not. The same way I don't put out a great deal of effort to become an expert on the Punk, Rap or Speed Metal areas of music I don't have a particular affinity for. But I have publicly asked those that are into these musics to share what it is that attracts them to it. I sincerely wanted to know and I got very generous enlightening responses. This, I think, goes to the heart of what namepeace is saying. For those that want to know about Jazz, those who have any knowledge at all should not hesitate "to share their love of it with someone else."

And just for the record, Jazz fans don't have the market cornered on snobbery.
There are just as many Rock/R&B/Pop/Punk/Funk/Classical/Country/Thrash/Trash/New Wave fans that can exhibit the same attitude in their genre.

Oh, "what's his name" is Rashied Ali on drums who was "freaking out for no good reason".
Well, there really is a reason and i'm pretty sure I know what it is. They felt like it.

Happy New Year one and all.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

Thunderbird said:

You said it all man

i don't think that one can get connected 2 jazz.
ask ur self, can u get connected 2 anything else, any other type of music.
that word connected sounds forced 2 me, like its being put on u. like when ur playing connect 4, in order 2 win the game, u have 2 forcefully have them in a row.
im ramblin, i know, lol, hopefully u can c my point of view.

Although sometimes i can appretiate jazz
i must admit sometimes the real fast jazz gets on my nerves
[Edited 12/31/04 19:51pm]

Thunderbird said:

Did you even read the last paragraph of my post? Just in case, I will repost it again:

So connecting people with jazz -- true jazz -- is not any different from anything else. People who love jazz have to share their love of it with someone else. Jazz fans have to get over themselves and have the guts and patience to introduce others to it. Falling in love with jazz doesn't happen overnight. But if I can "get" it, anyone can.

Get it straight before you go off.




Apparently. you didn't even read the post in its entirety. Re-read it and reconsider.




I never said that ish. You must be talking about some other jazz fans you know.

In any event, you contradict yourself in your own post.
[Edited 12/31/04 23:58pm]

missmad said:

I see it, but apparently y'all didn't really understand the original post. "Getting" jazz is not about "teaching" people about it. It's primarily about expressing one's love for it. So in that respect it's not different from any other genre of music. Love is how I got hooked.

Damn. Y'all are reading shit into my post that ain't there.

namepeace said:

i should've written this betta. ur rite getting jazz or any type of music is not about teaching.thass what i kinda meant 2 say but i did read more in2 it, i apologize.

I'm not a jazz aficiando or even much of a fan. But I saw Ken Burns' series on jazz and I got COMPLETELY JAZZED!!!!

Especially around the Artie Shaw and Lionel Hampton and Duke Ellington and Billy Holliday sections. THAT WAS A GREAT SHOW.

theAudience said:

I heard that!!!!!

namepeace said:

The best way to do it is to not make them feel as if one is forcing it down someone's throat. By that I mean, when people feel as if they're supposed to like something they generally rebel. If I'm trying to get somebody into music I do it in a subtle way, i.e., I play it for myself, but secretly for them too in order to see how they'll respond. But I cater it to what I think they'll like in the first place.

Just like Blues, Jazz is often stereotyped in the minds of many who don't listen to it. And when someone is so conditioned to the verse, chorus, verse chorus vocals of pop music, or any music with vocals, it might take a while to get them out of that mindset and stop expecting it. So in that respect I think introducing young kids to Jazz is different than other music they're bombarded with.

If kids think it's something they should like in order to like, or have an appreciation for it, they'll react the same way they would when told to eat vegetables. My technique, do it without them knowing you're trying to get them to like it. Whenever they're around play the jazz you think they'll have a positive reaction to. This sometimes opens the door.

NWF said:

Bro, you of all people should be embarrassed that the Spandaus are on a Snooze jazz playlist.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

i wasn't raised on jazz. well i was and wasn't. my dad isn't a jazz fanatic but a music fanatic. he just has an appreciation for real music. he would play jazz and i recognized it as jazz but i can't tell you in real depth what artist is who. my favorites are john coltrane, duke ellington, ella fitzgerald, and miles davis,and all those others i like but don't know their names. but most of all i love when ella swings. anyways i think you just have to take your time and listen. their are so many styles nowadays and it would be a great help if you read up on the culture of Jazz especially in Harlem and Chicago when it was really goin' down! the more you read up on something(or docs like ken burns)like jazz, the more you'll appreciate it. i don't know how people feel about quincy jones on the org but i read his autobiography and he had a life that i just envy. he played with all the greats at such a young age(charlie parker!).

I didn't hear it at home. And I'm just not that sophisticated.

UptownDeb said:

Please, it's not about being sophisticated at all.

I bet I could play you about 5 tunes and you'd be...



...by the so-called JAZZ-MONSTER!

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

theAudience said:

But I like them.

But, yes you're right. They'd fit better on an 80's or New Wave station.

theAudience said:


theAudience puts it better than I apparently did.

When I was growing up in the '70s, I was exposed more to the Benson/Mangione stuff than the traditional/bop stuff I listen to now. Sure, my dad had some Hubert Laws records, but neither he nor my mother played any jazz. In fact, until college, I was intimidated by it because it and its legends were spoken of with such reverence, and I didn't play music. And when I listened to it, it sounded so dense that I didn't have the patience to listen to it.

All it took was someone pulling me aside, expressing his love for it, and talking about what he heard when they played. It took someone who clearly had a passion for the music to persuade me to just listen.

Clearly, as tA pointed out, Jazz is a highly developed and existential form of music. It can be an acquired taste, particularly for nonmusicians like myself. (Hell, Diz devoted his life to trying to introduce it to a larger audience but with limited results.) But it is no different from any other genre of music. You have to be moved to listen, you have to be in an environment where it is available for your listening, or someone has to move you to listen to it, or a combination of the three.

It is the same way I got hooked on Jeff Buckley, MF Doom and Madlib this year. Friends (and orgers) moved me to listen. Which is why I was saying that jazz fans need to get off their high horse.

But I'd like to thank EVERYONE who posted. They reminded me that I truly love jazz now. Not because I want to feel smarter or better than others (tho avid music fans always have that temptation lurking), but because I've connected with it.

Wow what a great post.....well first the desire has to be there or if anything exposure is KEY....I was raised on Jazz and great soul and blues...hiphop came later but I never saw hiphop as REALLY holding a candle next to the great musicianship displayed with the masters...i.e. Miles, Duke, Dizzy, Coltrane, Bird or even the soul artistry of Stevie, The Isleys, Prince, EWF, etc....hiphop is easy to go to....it is essentially a "1, 2" beat...but you have to GO to Jazz...my father is a barber and some of the kids that hang around the barbershop.....one in particular that my father has befriended LOVES jazz music....he can't stand hiphop now because my pop plays Etta James, Sanborn, Herbie Hancock, Johnny "Guitar" Watson and Prince's Vegas DVD in the shop...so again exposure is KEY....ther is hope!

desyb of
http://www.datingincolor.com

desyb said:

You make some great points. But I will say that the greatest hip-hop MC's display a verbal dexterity and creativity that is challenging and inspirational in its own right.

Hip-hop, as much as I love it, is the most egotistical and increasingly closed-minded genre around, and it's hard to bring its fanbase to listen to an older form of music which many consider outdated, ancient, and more "mainstream."

namepeace said:

Not at all brother. You did a helluva job laying the table.
And what's important is that you got a good dialog going on the subject.

That was the whole point of the exercise anyway.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm
[Edited 1/2/05 15:10pm]

namepeace said:

Hey, slow down, dude. I 'm writing in generalizations and happened to bounce 'em off your post as an example.

@Audience: "They felt like it." - My point exactly. A lot of it is instinct, training and muscle memory. Don't mean it ain't good, but it don't mean it's got some meaning behind it. I think the point of Trane's playing was to basically shut off his brain and let the music play itself.

Dig,

I had some older cats tell me one day "youngblood,Jazz wasnt appreciated here in the states in the beginning,alot of cats went overseas to play, because finding Jazz records there were hard to find.and those cats like Horace silver, or Jimmy smith,Blakey,Trane,Miles,Bird,Diz. etc.etc would go over and play.

i was raised on all kinds of music, Jazz being one of my all time favorite vibes.growing up on the mentioned above cats. was incredible, sitting there listening to the Dells, then switching off and playing "Moanin" rasing ya children and all kinds of "real Music" is vital especially Jazz,because its thought provoking. The Modes.Changes.complexity of the timing of the drums.

so its not a fact of getting "Connected" you Take 1 GIANT STEP twoards Jazz it'll take 3 twoards you.

TheRealFiness said:

True. Japan has a lot more love for American jazz than Americans do. Guys like Michael Brecker (solo) and Kenny Garrett are a lot more famous over there.

P.S. "Giant Steps" was written as an exercise. If the fact that an exercise has become one of the most famous and covered "standards" ever isn't an indication of the elitism of jazz, I don't know what is.

But thank goodness for those dedicated players who got all the way through the math system and have come out the other side. Ever seen Picasso's early work? He mastered the basics before coming up with his own style. Same with Miles and Trane.

Thunderbird said:

My point was that your declaration that they were "freaking out for no good reason" was only your opinion.

Now whether someone likes what they produced or not is another story.
Not every Jazz fan has some inside track on an official meaning behind every artist's creation.
It either touches you or it doesn't. It's that simple.

And as for you saying that "jazz is created by musicians, for musicians,...", that's not 100% accurate but there is some truth to that statement. It's like the "head-cutting" sessions which has been one of the ways musicians challenge other musicians to improve their skills. Without these challenges to push the envelope of the art form, there is little or no progress. If everyone just plays nice and safe, you get...well you end up with something like Snooze jazz.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm