in high school i was a maniac on Prince and my best mate was a maniac on The Cure. we swapped everything 'till we both had the full back catalogue of each.
i love The Cure. seen them live many times now. my favourite incarnation was 'round about the Wish album. Porl Thomson is a great guitarist.

Faith, Pornography, The Top, Kiss Me..., Disintegration and Wish are all classics.

williammelvinhicks said:

Personally I think all of their albums are classics other than Wild Mood Swings, and even that has its merits.

GangstaFam said:

wild mood swings and wish are the only two i don't care for, and i even like the outtakes from those albums that are on the 'join the dots' box set.

Anxiety said:

The b-sides from "Wish" are killer. And I think if some of the weaker tracks from "WMS" were replaced with the b-sides, it'd be a tight album.

This is currently prominently displayed on my coffee table:




Does that make me Goth?

rudeboynpg said:

You're like one of those Prince fans that think everyone sounds like Prince.

A few dark-sounding albums during a long music career does not a goth band make.

Love em.

sextonseven said:

Okay people. I'd hate to start lecturing you on about goth music, but you were asking for it yourselves! (poor folks...)

First of all, having a "dark" sound does not make you goth. Second, having a "happy" sound does not mean that you wouldn't be goth either. I mean "Friday I'm In Love" is as damn hell gothic as it gets musically. Believe it or not, but once you get into that sort of thing (though I strongly would advice you don't), get to know how the "goth thing" works as a whole and it all makes sense. Sort of.

But moreover "Goth" is a subculture and yes, The Cure, Bauhaus, Siouxsie - even New Order - are goth bands. They might not even like that label themselves but resistance is futile I've found. Hell, I'd like to kick out every single PVC-glad "gothik cyber fr33k" out of the industrial clubs were I allowed to, but they are there - they are consuming our records, they bring in the money - so fine, assimilate yourselves even into our realms you bastard pestilences. They are always transforming their styles to fit to make their own interpretation of it anyway.

Really all it takes is the "goth connection" and you are a goth band. Though if you ask any "tr000" modern day goths if The Cure, Siouxsie and Bauhaus are goth they'd prolly say "No, those bands are not goth". Bastards!

(P.S. Goth chicks are easy.)

Novabreaker said:

Bands with lots of goth appeal like the ones you mentioned aren't the same as goth bands. By your logic Johnny Cash should turn in his country card and declare himself a goth (if he were still alive that is).

sextonseven said:

You just don't get it.

Thank God.

Novabreaker said:

Maybe goth is defined differently in Europe.

I agree a goth dj wouldn't be very good if he didn't have any Cure, Siouxsie, Cocteau Twins or Nick Cave records. That still doesn't make those artists "gothic rock". But hey, if it makes some of you feel better to go through life wearing black colored glasses where everyone is goth, then I won't convince you otherwise.

You know, back when all these bands mentioned started, New Wave was the word..... And now that New Wave has become a word that is out of fashion, there is this need to give them a 'new' label..... I am not sure that goth is the right one..... Hell, to me, even Evanesance (sp.?) is more goth than The Cure...
[Edited 12/16/04 7:53am]

sextonseven said:

Oh, that's a good point. But the way it works with that goth1k-thang is that Europe does define America. It's a "minority-wins" culture anyway, where the winner is the most obscure. Not the most outright. The "most goth" is the most interestingly interpretated, the most sophisticated, sublimated way of dealing with the thematic. The last time I was at a goth club (I still go to those) I was wearing blue jeans, a red tight t-shirt and sneakers (In never fucking wear sneakers elsewhere). My friend was in light blue suede jacket and jeans equally. We looked at each other and went "Dude... we are so goth right now".

Take this with some irony, but funnily enough that's how it seems to work these days.



Sure. You already mentioned "appeal", there's another description "associated" (or "related"). This is really where the current goth culture seems to revel at it's "high" at the moment. It's wildly referential, which is the only reason why I am still interested in it in my mid-twenties.



No self-respecting goth would wear black anymore. Dude.

Goth rules! I was never goth myself but did sport the black trenchcoat for a while in college. I've done a lot of reading about goths online, and it seems the number one rule about goths is that being goth isn't about being goth, it's about declaring how not goth you are and how the scene totally sucks. And about listening to violin players signed to Projekt sing gypsy songs while declaring their evil gothness. That's not goth, that's just silly.

Novabreaker said:

I don't think you get it. "Friday I'm In Love' is one of the least goth songs they've done. There's nothing goth about it.

Joy Division might be slightly goth. New Order is not.

GangstaFam said:

New Order is about as goth as Jesus Jones or EWF, for cryin' out loud. New Order is far better and more legendary than those bands, mind you...I'm just sayin'.

Anxiety said:

That's right, people! This is the actual goth look right here:

Novabreaker said:

I understand and agree with almost everything you've said. If I were to write a book about goth, I would have to include all the associated bands as well as gravers, blood drinkers, electro, fetish clothing, Tim Burton, etc. for it to be halfway credible. Where we disagree is on semantics. There are goth bands and then there are goth bands: bands that rarely if ever stray from the goth sound versus those that have been embraced and loved by the goth subculture. I'm referring to one and you're referring to the other.

And like you've said, it's usually the posers or newbies in goth clubs that go overboard in terms of appearance. Many of the veterans have all "been there, done that" and wear whatever the hell they want without worrying about what the "rules" are.

Novabreaker said:

In other words, it's a snob subculture, eh? Kind of like the indie kids and their indie cred.

sextonseven said:

Saying The Cure and Siouxsie are not goth is like saying Johnny Cash is not Country. Look at how many Goths are Cure and Siouxsie fans. Look at how many Goth girls have the Siouxsie look, How many goth guys (in the 80s) had the Cure look. The Cure are like the Goth starter band. Its like how did you become a goth? first I got into the Cure, Then Siouxsie, then I disovered Bauhaus, the Virgin Prunes and Christain Death.

rudeboynpg said:

Like Playskool? The Cure: My First Goth Band.

I am really enjoying myself on this thread.

Thunderbird said:

Is Bon Jovi metal?

sextonseven said:

I never said Prince is Goth! Prince has a few dark sounding songs, like Computer Blue and Crystal Ball, but Prince is way to funky to be Goth!

sextonseven said:

I HATE Bon Jovi! Bon Jovi is Pop Metal.

Thunderbird said:

whoops! i meant EMF, not EWF. i better watch it, before i start calling 'em EMS.

rudeboynpg said:

You could call the Cure "Pop Goth" (I guess)

Thunderbird said:

Thats not Goth thats Funk! Is that Larry Graham in the 70s?

rudeboynpg said:

he's goofing on me because i accidentally called EMF "EWF". i woulda goofed on me too.

Anxiety said:

You so totally would have!!!