Everybody wanna be a nigga, but don't nobody wanna be a nigga © Paul Mooney

i think we should be a little less pavlovian about our reactions to words, and we'd find that those words will hold a little less sway over us.

Anxiety said:

That's interesting, Anxiety. I can't think of a clearer example of an artist actually employing a slur to evoke a Pavlovian effect.

The argument will likely stay in the realm of whether her usage and intent excuse that employment. Reading the lyrics and having seen Smith's performances, i gotta wonder whether this isn't the musical equivalent of someone praising an "articulate" black person. It comes off as a foolish attempt to be deep and shocking (like the Easter album cover by Mapplethorpe).

All that aside, I've read some pretty interesting interviews of Smith, and I don't find her stupid at all. I gather she's an artist who's been into risk and staying true to her craft.

In the end, it's her piece of art -- dung or not.

ThreadBare said:

that's a really well thought out perspective, and i can't say a hundred percent that i disagree. i really haven't read enough on the song and her defenses and/or apologies to it (if indeed there have been any) to make any judgment calls on the matter. all i know is how the song affected me...i felt she took a really ugly, violent word and turned it back toward the faces of the oppressors by saying she'd rather be one of the oppressed than one of them.

sure, patti smith used a lot of "deep and shocking" imagery back in the day, and for some reason it got labelled "punk rock". part of that was being young and stupid, i'm sure, but within that stoopid energy, i really believe she had something substantial that she wanted to say for the good of her art and for what she wanted to convey - it wasn't just a fashion show. again - i could be totally wrong. i've read a lot on patti smith and robert mapplethorpe, but i would by no means consider myself "scholarly" on either of them.

still, i think patti smith was far from the eminem of her time, for whatever that's worth.

blackguitaristz said:

point taken

blackguitaristz said:

Rock'N'Roll Nigger

Baby was a black sheep. Baby was a whore.
Baby got big and baby get bigger.
Baby get something. Baby get more.
Baby, baby, baby was a rock-and-roll nigger.
Oh, look around you, all around you,
riding on a copper wave.
Do you like the world around you?
Are you ready to behave?

Outside of society, they're waitin' for me.
Outside of society, that's where I want to be.

(Lenny!)

Baby was a black sheep. Baby was a whore.
You know she got big. Well, she's gonna get bigger.
Baby got a hand; got a finger on the trigger.
Baby, baby, baby is a rock-and-roll nigger.

Outside of society, that's where I want to be.
Outside of society, they're waitin' for me.

(those who have suffered, understand suffering,
and thereby extend their hand
the storm that brings harm
also makes fertile
blessed is the grass
and herb and the true thorn and light)

I was lost in a valley of pleasure.
I was lost in the infinite sea.
I was lost, and measure for measure,
love spewed from the heart of me.
I was lost, and the cost,
and the cost didn't matter to me.
I was lost, and the cost
was to be outside society.

Jimi Hendrix was a nigger.
Jesus Christ and Grandma, too.
Jackson Pollock was a nigger.
Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger,
nigger, nigger, nigger.

Outside of society, they're waitin' for me.
Outside of society, if you're looking,
that's where you'll find me.
Outside of society, they're waitin' for me.
Outside of society. (Repeat)

Anxiety said:

That's interesting, Anxiety. I can't think of a clearer example of an artist actually employing a slur to evoke a Pavlovian effect.

The argument will likely stay in the realm of whether her usage and intent excuse that employment. Reading the lyrics and having seen Smith's performances, i gotta wonder whether this isn't the musical equivalent of someone praising an "articulate" black person. It comes off as a foolish attempt to be deep and shocking (like the Easter album cover by Mapplethorpe).

All that aside, I've read some pretty interesting interviews of Smith, and I don't find her stupid at all. I gather she's an artist who's been into risk and staying true to her craft.

In the end, it's her piece of art -- dung or not.

i think we should be a little less pavlovian about our reactions to words, and we'd find that those words will hold a little less sway over us.

And singing "Jimi Hendrix was a nigger" is (empowering) to who?

Justification is a bitch.

blackguitaristz said:

all i did was post the lyrics.

Anxiety said:

Apparently you can't do that on this thread.

I *think* I understand what she's saying. I *think* what she's saying is that Jimi (and Pollock and even lil ole Grandma) were these people who went against the grain and made people so angry that terrible things were said about them, you know? I mean, Dr. King was a n--- in some people's eyes.

HOWEVER...I do agree with the way she went ABOUT it is just stupid. Same with Lennon. See, it's the attitude of "if you're offended with the way I'm saying this it's because you're stupid and you react to words without hearing the meaning", you know? It's such a smug, self-righteous way to get your point across. You don't call people n---s. Period! With the history of that word and all it represents, there's just no reason for it. (Well, unless you're black, apparently, but I won't go there.)

I guess i see what she's trying to say, but I'm not crazy about the way that she says it. There seems to be this romanticized notion that you can identify with a certain type of people just because you're seen as( or you see yourself as)some kind of rebel...

I guess i see what she's trying to say, but I'm not crazy about the way that she says it. There seems to be this romanticized notion that you can identify with a certain type of people just because you're seen as( or you see yourself as)some kind of rebel...

nah, i don't think that's the attitude at all. i think it's more like, "if you're offended with the way I'm saying this, maybe you should look at why a word holds so much power over you and ask if it's okay that a combination of letters can completely shut you off to the reason it was used."

just wanted to point out, in case anyone may have missed it, that jesus christ was (supposedly) a white man and jackson pollock was a white man yet she is referring to them as niggers. ths is so obviously NOT about race but rather perceptions. she even goes so far as to say she WANTS to be included on a list with these people...in other words she feels like she is what socety considers to be a "nigger". how is this racist?

Unacceptable. Period.

I've never listened to Patti Smith, anyway, so I could give two about her.

okaypimpn said:

My sentiments exactly. It is unacceptable. And it was way out of bounds. U get your ass kicked for that kind of shit.

blackguitaristz said:

Repeatedly.

okaypimpn said:

A lot of folks were on here justifying that shit too, player. "Oh, she really meant this." Yeah well, your jaw getting broke, I really meant that.

blackguitaristz said:

Basically. Take your pic...

A.)

B.)

C.)

D.) All of the above

I, personally, would go with "A"...takes longer to heal and does more damage.