I avoided this thread until I had ample time to read it - I knew it was either gonna be a long read or a long response from me, lol. VERY interesting article, so true on so many fronts. Seems like a day doesn't go by that my best friend & I don't talk about how all this effects us b/c we're both so SO sick of the bullshit & wonder if it will ever end or even ease up

I think what hurts most is that so many Black people have bought into the bullshit. They accept it as a way of life, not realizing there's a choice to be made here. Then you get that separation between "conscious" & "unconscious", or as Chris Rock puts it "Black people" & "niggaz". It's all so fucked. I don't have kids but I seriously worry about our children every day. Not just Black children either, all children - they'll all grow up & coexist together in this world, how's that gonna play out? How will they treat each other - better or worse than adults do now?

I dunno, it's a deep deep hole we're in right now. Gimme the sun

CalhounSq said:

Thanks, ChS... This is my problem with the "solution" that he puts forward. Surely it could also be very divisive? Seems to me it would just replace the splits that he's talking about with a divide between those who accept the "conscious" image and those who reject it...

Also, I’m not sure that all parts of "the black community" are being "destabilised/destroyed" to the same extent. Affluent black kids presumably listen to hip hop in their college dorm rooms. This is also true of many white kids. The problems which tend to get blamed on hip hop are usually those which most acutely affect poor, minority communities in the inner-cities. These are the people whose options seem to remain limited as they get older.

But I would argue that we should think of these as complex social and political problems, with multiple sources (the state's failure to discharge its responsibilities towards urban communities; poverty & changes in the global and domestic economy; issues surrounding security, the availability of weapons, poor law-enforcement; etc…) Can Talib Kweli reallysolve these? Should he have to? Doesn't that let George Bush / John Kerry off the hook? I'm not sure that the solution lies in getting rappers to sing nicer songs....

Music is very important, I agree, but why should the problems that affect the wellbeing of the black community - and a black, emancipatory politics aimed at solving them - be relegated to the "ghetto" of the music media? Maybe these issues, which often concern the fundamental rights and security of human beings, need to be brought onto the centre-stage politically - not just thought of as a "crisis of values" in "the black community" (poverty & urban decline, for example, are threats as significant as terrorism).

Good article - but I still think a little less "keep it real" and a little more "fight the power" might be a good thing!

theAudience said:

Well said, these especially:

deebee said:

All good points I hate to say it but I do feel like Black people are gonna have to have a bit of a war amongst themselves to ever solve this thing, ugly as that is. One way or another, we're divided

laurarichardson said:

I remember back in the day when very few Whites listened to hip-hop. Now Eminem pulls together all it's worst aspects (nursery rhyme lyrics with misogynistic, violent overtones) and he makes millions and wins awards.



Not that I'm advocating all of the excessive "bling-bling", but doesn't jewelry - diamonds, gold, etc.- always have value, whereas something immaterial, like fluctuating stocks, do not? (i.e. Enron as a recent example) How else were some people able to survive in the Depression, times of war, etc.?



to Cee-Lo and the rest of the Goodie Mob.

vainandy said:

That's a strange statement right there. "Black people are some of the most talented people on this planet." Well gee you mean Black people are just like any other type of people, some of them are really talented, thanks for pointing that out.

beautifulone7 said:

It has value if you're willing to sell it when your baby is hungry $ is being spent like crazy by rappers & people trying to live like rappers but investments aren't being made into things that make your $ GROW, things that will sustain you & your family over the years. Cars & clothes - the value only decreases over time.

What would you rather have passed down to you - an empire or a fucking gold chain?

theAudience said:

Wow...that's a very informative sight. Thanks for sharing.

CalhounSq said:

I was only questioning the stability of things that make an "empire". A fucking gold chain could be worth something whereas stocks could be worth nothing, i.e. the Great Depression.

Just a general question, again not advocating excessive "bling bling" in terms of lifestyle. What if everybody boycotted Sean John for example? P. Diddy wouldn't be able to pass that "empire" down to his kids but surely some of his "ice" could be worth something.

All I'm saying is that people (Black, White or whatever you call yourself) need to be careful about putting all of their faith and hard earned money in a "system" that is volatile unstable at the very least. A full understanding of how global economics works is clearly not understood by the "bling bling" rappers and those who emulate their lifestyle. I believe that's what the author of the article was getting at in terms of "communal economics". These types of rappers et. al. are holding a lot of material worth and not recirculating it in the community. So in the event of an economic recession, collapse, etc. the Black community would not be able to sustain itself as others have because the valuables will be concentrated in the hands of a few who will be fighting over it like cats and dogs, I presume.

Just my . Not trying to turn this into an economic/global catastrophe debate.

What is your point? I don't know what in the hell you are trying to say.

beautifulone7 said:

I hear you

could it be said this downfall started with N.W.A?

Mazerati said:

nah....



In my opinion.... music has always been there but there was a balance. There was LL..braggin', P.E tellin' us that it would take a whole damn nation to hold them back, Kid n' Play dancin' around, etc , etc.....

there's no balance in what is being played on tv and being heard on the radio...when you get one view...you get one response.....

Plain and simple: music u like influences u, to a certain extent.....stereotyping is something that connot be solved obviously but music is full of them and always has been/will be!


stereotypes in music r plenty of course.....I wish nirvana type grunge 9the imagery) that kids still like would go 4ever.....Linkin Park don't seem as bad image wise (ie its so cool to smoke dope imagary that grunge has)


also, not to blame Bob marley but that bloke has created alot of dope smokers.....

I hadn't gone to strip clubs much before rap was a musical force, but is probably 70% of a club's playlist. Even when a club is located in a white area and it does not have black dancers, the white, mixed race or even hispanic dancers tend to bring rap music with them.

Not sure what this has to do with the article posted.
I just felt like sharing my observation.

thesexofit said:

You don't wanna blame him... but then you blame him Ain't it quite a stretch to say he "created" them?? Come on, we all make our own choices. But I'm sure folks who were already smoking felt like they had some cool backup

Rhondab said:

Quote of the day!!

To...
The Real Finess
MrTation
Handclapsfingasnapz
Supernova
vainandy
CalhounSq
beautifulone7
...thank you for your kind comments.

Let me just say that I was a little emotional when I made the post hence the tone.
I'd like you all to know that I really wish these brothers and sisters the best.
It's just that they need to hear the truth and sometimes it gonna hurt both parties.

Based on research done by scholars, it's more than likely true that this "Willie Lynch" is nothing more than a metaphor. That still does not negate the validity of the concepts contained in the "letter".

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

theAudience said:

-----
I appreciate everyone checking this out and all the comment were great. As far as the Lynch lette goes. Even if he was made up it has a lot of truth in it. Slavery and Jim Crow would never have lasted as long without the tactics descibed in the letter.

There's nothing in that article that most of us haven't been saying here all along but what do we do about it? We are all in control of what gets shown in our homes and what doesn't get played on our stereos but there is so much more that can be done. When someone comes out with a decent hip-hop record, no one buys them. Folks talk about music from the old school but when an old school artist releases a record, no one buys it. Teena Marie album has only sold 180,000 copies but some of the newer stuff that's garbage sells millions. We say we want change but ain't nobody doing nothin'. I've written threads and on threads about BET, the NAACP and those threads go wood. BET is not even owned by black people and yet they display the most negative of stereotypes. Why ain't nobody as pissed off as I am about that shit?

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

TOFKA I hear you loud and clear.
Maybe I haven't been around long enough to see all of the posts you're referring to.
The only thing I can do as an individual is control what goes on in my house.
As a musician, I don't participate in that style of music.

Regarding BET, I very rarely watch it outside of Bobby Jones occasionally.
The NAACP has unfortunately become a "paper tiger" as an institution these days.

IMO, it's that "71%" that needs to be schooled on what time it is.
I know you've heard that "An empty barrel makes the most noise."
Although this barrel may be empty spiritually/psychologically, the fact that it's full of money makes it sound louder than the voice of reason.

I'm majorly pissed but no master plan.

tA

Tribal Disorder

http://www.soundclick.com...rmusic.htm

I know exactly what you mean. I LOVE Teena Marie's new single "I'm Still In Love" but I didn't care for the rest of the album. I listened to a sample of each track on the Tower Records but the whole album was ballads and that is just not my thing. At least Teena has gotten air play though, thank God.

I know exactly what you're saying but I think a lot of people are not buying an Old School artist's new album because corporate owned radio stations are not playing them and the public does not know they are out.

I remember in the mid 1990s, Cameo did an album called "In The Face Of Funk". I saw the video for their remake of "Slide" on BET a VERY FEW times so I bought it. It actually was a decent funk album (by 1990s standards of course).

When the Barkays also released an album in the mid 1990s called "48 Hours", it received absolutely no airplay. The only way I knew it was released is I saw it in the record store. It also was a decent funk album (by 1990s standards of course). Now, the Barkays new song called "Holla If Ya Hear Me" (which I don't like at all) has a kind of hip hop feeling to it. It is receiving plenty of airplay down here. Another reason I think it is receiving airplay is because it is a ballad and so is Teena's new one. A lot of R&B stations geared toward an older audience are switching to a "Soft Soul" format. An uptempo jam doesn't stand a chance on radio anymore.

theAudience said:

That's where I'm at w/ this - what the hell DO we do? How can we turn this shit around? It just seems so hopeless to me sometimes I have no answers either. What it really comes down to (for me) is love & respect for ones self. When you love yourself you can then love & respect others, i.e. your family, community, etc. But how do you teach those lessons when people are so steeped in the bullshit? I really don't know & it worries me more than I'd like it to

I agree 100%. Hip Hop, not the real deal, is destroying the Black community in part. But...

Black people in the ghetto are wearing name brand clothes that they cannot afford while their children have no money for college. They are driving cars that they can BARELY make the payments on and passing on traditions of materialistic ideals and shallow morals from generation to generation. Hip hop is not destroying the Black community ALONE, the Black community is also on the road to self-destruction.

4HisGlory said:

No. No. No. No. "Black people in te ghetto" is a generalization. Are you black or do you live in the ghetto? Well, I am and I do live there. I do not wear namebrand clothes and do not buy them for my children either. I teach my kids that they don't have to be like the negative stereotypes they see around them and in the media.

And if the numbers above are correct and 71% of the hip-hop buying public is white, who's pimpin who?

4HisGlory said:

are you serious....

so why is it that PEOPLE who don't live in the ghetto and in trailer parks are in debt.....

EVERYONE lives beyond their means....The number one reason for divorce: $$$$$


"keeping up with the jones'" isn't a black/ghetto thing.

Another thing...how do you know where ppl get their clothes from? I had women donate designer clothes to my program and would give them to my clients. So you would be the one to prejudge before you would know anything about that person?



I'm so sick of classism. People act like if you're poor you have no morals and sensibilities and yet we can look those with $$$ and see that they aren't taking care of business either.

CalhounSq said:

Its not hopeless. I think that ppl nowadays just look from the outside and just simply assume nothing can be done. Its time for ppl to get involved in anyway they can. Mentor a child or even an adult who you think is willing to take a look at their situation and make a change but they dont know what/where to go.

I think ppl like to sit back and criticize nowadays and don't feel any responsiblity until it comes to them in some form.

Rhondab said:

VERY, very true I have yet to jump in & actually DO anything

anybody see the BET Awards this year? Kanye West (Jesus Walks) and the old school hip hop set (slick rick, doug e fresh, public enemy, sugarhill gang, grandmaster flash. mc lyte) got huge props from the audience, whereas Ludacris and Outkast's performances got a tepid response. Old school or new school doesn't matter, it's all in your passion. KW got heavy rotation on all video channels with a video (Jesus Walks) to a song that he says in the song "radio won't play this"...with a klansman carrying a burning cross to boot!!!