VinaBlue said:

Baloney indeed!

ROFLMAO @ this thread and it's subject matter...for a number of reasons:

1. Quincy takes credit as the artist when it's HIS album! The human voice is a musical instrument, that's all. If a record company gives him an artist deal, then that's what he is.

2. A song is lyrics and melody.

3. An arrangement is considered a track. Arrangers are not the songwriters.

4. Music production is very, very broad! Therefore, the role of a producer has to be clearly defined at the start of a project to determine who gets the credit and royalties. Producers don't have to have any musical knowledge at all and can still be good producers.

5. A few of the elements involved in production are: managing recording budgets, song selection, tempo, what types of arrangements, recording process (analog, digital, sequencing), hiring personnel, and post-production. Therefore, anyone involved in any of these creative or administrative procedures could be considered a producer.

6. Read "Everything You'd Better Know About The Record Indusrty" by Kashif and "The Art of Record Production" by Richard James Burgess. They include info on artists that want these credits undeservedly.

LightOfArt said:

I am now suspicious.

It's an old issue in the music biz... Whoever the 'big name' is gets to claim credit (and a percentage of the royalties!) for work that they've been "involved" in creating...

Professional songwriters refer to it as "change a word, get a third!": the artist noodles around with it, and then asks for a credit. So, think about it - as the real author of the work, what would you rather do: concede to the artist's demands and end up with 70% (or whatever) of something that's possibly going to sell several million copies, or stand your ground, and get 100% of nothing, when your song doesn't make it onto the album!

The music business is all about who's got the power to exploit who... so I guess the real creative people just go along with it. (Plus, some of them do very nicely out of it!)

Like Pook said (and I'm paraphrasing here!), back in the day the crooners, the song & dance men, etc, never wrote their own material, but nowadays there's this focus on being a "serious artist", which means being seen to write your own stuff. It's all smoke 'n' mirrors as far as I'm concerned - because each of those skills (singing, songwriting, producing) takes a certain talent all of its own, and very few people are able to do all of them... Plus, there's a lot of money to be made if it succeeds, and a lot to be lost if it bombs - so no-one's going to take undue risks!

As far as Beyonce is concerned.... As a songwriter, she's got a great ass....!!

[This message was edited Wed Aug 4 5:43:31 2004 by deebee]

Adisa said:

I understand all of this, but what bugs me is that people who can do it all get put along side those who do VERY LITTLE. Just a huge pet peeve of mine. For example, I know I need a good producer to polish up my music, but I have written a lot more than just lyric and melody... every sound you hear on my tracks is created by me, minus the guitar because I can't play. And the arrangement is all me. Sure I've gotten feed back and suggestions on the mix... that's what engineers and producers are for.

I know that the average person doesn't give a hoot about all this, but when I read the credits on a cd, and I see one name under the song title, I wonder how much they really did. Did they come up with that awesome string part in the chorus? Did they do the drum programming? Did they come up with the hook? I want to know these things. And yes, I realized the detailed list would be too long and cds would have 40-page booklets. But I also think the people responsible for each part in the music would want to be recognized. What about the Funk Brothers? That guy that wrote the guitar line to My Girl... Yeah, I don't know who he is and that's my point! To me, that is an essential part of the song, a defining moment. I feel sorry for that guy.

Salon.com did an article around the time Lauryn Hill got sued for just this topic. Her producers sued her because she "took" more credit then they feel she deserved. They also mention that Sting is credited as the sole writer of "Every Breath You Take" yet what's the most memorable part of that song? The guitar melody. Who wrote the guitar melody? Andy Summers.
[This message was edited Wed Aug 4 9:38:49 2004 by CynicKill]

She's just a big fako period.

deebee said:

Good points. How about Diane Warren? I suppose she is a lyric and melody writer, and a very good one. She's very successful. She plays guitar and piano I believe. No bad for Top 40... http://www.realsongs.com/

@ Beyonce & Paraphrasing Pook. Too Funny.

CynicKill said:

And where is Andy Summers now? "Mother" on Syncronicity was credited to Andy and it was fricken WEIRD.

VinaBlue said:

No idea, I'm just saying that MAYBE he should've gotten some kind of writing credit on "Every...".

CynicKill said:

You're right, but that's the thing. The person who writes the lyric and melody gets all the credit, even if the song gets developed by the band. But, I think Sting might have justified it his mind, because the album was listed under The Police.

Duran Duran always gave equal songwriting credit to all 5 members. Each member wrote their own parts, it didn't matter who started the song, it was the chemistry that happened between the 5 of them that made it a Duran Duran song.

Ellie said:

Good grammer is very important, but keep in mind that some lyrics are written that why purposely to create a street, urdan or casual slange vibe in the song. The slang words used create a mood. Makes you feel the song is more street. Its intentional. She is not a great writter, but she isnt stupid. I'm sure she knows good english. Talent aside she is a successful business woman.

VinaBlue said:

I completely agree with you Vina! It really all boils down to greed!
As you know singers get the lowest royalty rate out of the producers and writters.
Its just a way of getting credit for something you didnt do.
Puff daddy made his career off of this. He doesn't play and wrotes very little.
He does a "work for hire" (meaning he pays a flat fee to someone instead of giving them royalties) for tracks and lyrics that he raps. I know a guy who sold his track to Bad Boy for 1,000 dollars. THE SONG MADE MILLIONS!!!

Just about everything you heard from Mase, Biggie and the puff albums are tracks by exploited producers! But they did allow them selves to be exploited! This is the delima created by the divide of the have and have nots. If there was a level playing field Puffy would still be someones assitant. He has no musical talent. His fortune was made by using hi connections, to exploit the talnet of others.....

Littlewing said:

Oh damn...

RipHer2Shreds said:

I distinctly remember her saying that she hated the word and regretted making it such a popular catch phrase. Sorry, but I can't stand the girl myself. I've met more than five people who have met her and they have all said she's a major bitch. Five people, who don't know each other and have never met, might I add, so I know they aren't lying. Any celebrity who acts like they are God's gift to man is automatically ugly to me. I don't care if her name is on every radio, billboard, TV program, or magazine. In some interview about her, her mom was talking about her when she was younger and she had asked a little girl why she wouldn't hang out with Beyonce and the little girl looked at Bee's mom and said, "Because, I just don't like her." Basically, that explains why Beyonce's always saying how her best friends are her group mates and her sister....the broad has waaay too much attitude to be hanging with anyone who won't kiss her ass, which isn't all that great might I add. Her lyrics are simple and have been since she started. Her solo album has her as co-writer for pretty much all the tracks...I was looking to see if the chick had put her name as co-writer on "The Closer I Get To You", which is the only song with lyrics that contain any type of depth or skill on that entire CD. The girl has about a much talent as the guy playing guitar on the street corner, which is where her ass should be, but that's just my two cents.

That's what was so funny about the scandals surrounding Destiny's Child. Two members left the group because B was getting preferential treatment from her dad. They wanted more vocal time (I suppose they wanted to be more like En Vogue) but they wouldn't let them. The arguement was that B was the most talented singer and since she founded the groub, sorry for ya.

Then Farrah and Michelle join the group and Farrah wasn't quite the team player they had hoped she'd be. Word is Farrah and Michelle complained behind closed doors, but when Farrah started being more vocal she was ostricized from the group. Michelle, not wanting to be nobody-from-whateverville, is towing the company line.

Soon after Farrah's ouster Michelle and Kelly were on TV singing B's praises, saying things like the group would be nothing without B, which MIGHT be true but c'mon. "Survivor" is practically B's first solo album considering how much influence she seemed to have over the proceedings, supposedly writing and producing on all the tracks. But it just goes to show that B is slightly power-hungry and a b###h besides. And the only true friends she has is her cow-towing bandmates and less talented little sister desperately riding her coat-tails.

Did I mention that all this makes her prime diva incarnate and what most likely what keeps many people still interested. Drama makes for interesting art.
[This message was edited Wed Aug 4 13:45:08 2004 by CynicKill]

Beyonce is no more a producer than my 10 year old cousin. They both have great ideas for songs, but that's NOT producing and/or SongWriting.Don't get me wrong Not being a songwriter is o.k. and it definitely doesn't mean a person isn't talented but the claims that artists are making now are ridiculous.

Another person who is bending the songwriting and producer rules is Ashlee Simpson who in trying not to be like her Sister is always saying that she Writes all of her music. I'm sorry to say but that is another bold face lie. I happen to personally know that she had a TEAM of Record label Writers and Producers helping her pen those songs on her newest album.
She didn't even write most of the lyrics but got credit for it. She did submit a list of songs that she apparently wrote but they were rejected. So basically she's just like her sister. A Singer/ Entertainer, with the only difference being that her sister admited it.


I'm glad other fans of music out there are noticing this also.

I write every note you hear (so far) on my tracks, minus the guitars on two tracks. Someday I'll get a good local producer to spice it up.

http://www.myspace.com/vinablue

http://www.soundclick.com...emusic.htm


[This message was edited Wed Aug 4 15:40:17 2004 by VinaBlue]

Littlewing said:

Hey bro,,Or gal,,
How do you know all of that stuff about Puff paying Flat fees for tracks and everything? The reason I ask, because you're exactly right and a close friend of mine was part of that exploited team of producers/engineers/ writers etc. She's my only link to the music industry and tells me all the little hidden secrets to these things. She worked on Mary J. Blige's Second album which has "PUFFY ENTERTAINMENT" plastered all over it. No ones name that actually worked on it was listed. He hired a slew of producers to do that album but the credits go to PUFFY Entertainment. They all knew this and were paid for it and basically was fine with it.. Although the album is a great album she said it was one of the easiest projects she's worked on because it was ALL samples with a few intrumental over-dubbing. BUT Puffy did absolutely nothing, except some engineering on the final mixes.


BUT I don't want this to sound like a puffy rant. The man is doing his thing and by now I would guess that he knows his way around a studio. But you're right about the team of producers.

wow this thread is reaalllly interesting. its opened up my eyes 2 ALOT of things i didn't kno b4 about the music biz.

jamaulredmond said:

Thanks! I have a few friends who have done tracks for Puffy and other frineds in the biz. Its the only way he works with people. (work for hire) Unless your a very well established producer ie Timberlad, Neptunes etc...He'll even turn them down if he has something from a unknown thats hot! Alot of the unknowns see it as a way in the door. But there are so many people out there just doing tracks, if you dont atleast get a album credit, your losing money and industry props.

Not to highjack the thread, its all along the same line of thought basically. Greed and lying are a big part of the business. Entertainers want to separate themselves from the pack and be known as 'Artist', without the blood, sweat and tears.

Alot of people really believe Beyonce, Britney and the other pop drones actually write this stuff.
Not to mention the millions of dollars in royalties they are recouping for work they didnt do.

Everyone is desparate to get their foot in the door so they give up royalties, copyrights and everything to the people with power.

This thread reminds me of why I lost my true passion for music and creativity. Somehow it all boils down to money, control, jealousy, ego, and a big ol' fashioned pile of hog shit! Right now I'm writing a lot and in the studio recording...and what for?

Ellie said:

Damn! can you pay my automo'bills WTF?

Not to be all booshie because I have my own issues with subject-verb agreement, but I always wonder if anyone ever does a grammar check on some of the lyrics we hear? Are you listening R. Kelly?

This topic is so relevant because I just finished watching (in disbelief) a special on VH1 about HULK HOGAN'S DAUGHTER, Brooke Hogan, who's joining the teen pop singer parade. Thanks largely to pop's industry connections - Lou Pearlman - she gets to record some songs and have them played on Clear Channel stations. One of her biggest battles is with big Lou - she has a song that she "wrote" - she has a big notebook full of lyrics - that she wants to be released as the first single. She actually wins out at the end, due in no small part to Daddy's getting on the phone with Lou to get this s**t straightened out. She's 15, blonde - and is pretty much indistinguishable from the other teen singers out there.

Nowadays, who doesn't have a reality show

JesseDezz said:

o man u saw that bull shit too?! man i couldn't even watch it all! i watch all the way up till she did performance then i HAD to turn..i hate her singing!

This thread is funny than a mugg.