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Beyonce: Artistic fraud? I have to admit I'm a big Beyonce, and especially Destiny's Child fan. I love the boldness of the girls and Beyonce's "diva" inclinations. I also used to think that it was cool that Beyonce had such a hand in creating the music and style of the group, or at least that's what everyone within her circle would have you believe. Her, her father, and especially her bandmates were always praising Beyonce for her ability to write hits all the time. But just looking at any liner notes on a Destiny's Child album is enough to make those claims suspect. Like a critic from USA Today who was unimpressed with the new crop of singers claiming songwriting credit, "Sitting in on a writing session with a group od seasoned songwriters and studio musicians and producers does not a songwriter make". I tend to agree. Everyone from Christina Aguliera to Justin Timberlake to Brandy (Who just gave up with her current release of trying to claim songwriting craft. She has no songwriting credit on the album) to of course Beyonce. There was a rumor that Beyonce's father turned many producers for her "Dangerously In Love" album away when they wouldn't give Beyonce songwriting credit. And the most telling proof of all was when Prince was singing Beyonce's praises only to let drop that Beyonce didn't even know her musical scales. Now I make small demos from my keyboard yet even I know the notes of the keys! Now I'm not saying she needs to know how to write music, but wouldn't someone who claims to be a songwriter at LEAST know that much?
So is Beyonce and others of her ilk artistic frauds claiming to be something more then they are? Since when has being a singer not been enough? Was it the day the true craft of songwriting died? |
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Well, considering it took about seven people to write Bills, Bills, Bills.....  | |
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TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said: Well, considering it took about seven people to write Bills, Bills, Bills..... Really? And none of them passed English Language at school? The grammar in most Destiny's Child lyrics (plus Kelly Rowland's 'Stole') is absolutely appalling. Even if I were 9 years old and listening to those songs, I'd be irritated by the awful sentence structure | |
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Now I'm not saying she needs to know how to write music, but wouldn't someone who claims to be a songwriter at LEAST know that much?
No, Norman Whitefield who's a MAJOR song-writer doesn't read/write or know how to play any instrument yet he's a tour-de-force lyricsist who delievered to Motown their BIGGEST hits. | |
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TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said: Well, considering it took about seven people to write Bills, Bills, Bills.....
My God! It took seven people to write that piece of crap??!!  "I saw a woman with major Hammer pants on the subway a few weeks ago and totally thought of you." - sextonseven | |
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I'm really enjoying the new Nina Sky album but guess how many people are credited with writing "Move Your Body?" Twelve people! |
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CynicKill said: Now I make small demos from my keyboard yet even I know the notes of the keys! Now I'm not saying she needs to know how to write music, but wouldn't someone who claims to be a songwriter at LEAST know that much?
Not necessarily. Some songwriters are purely lyricists. They don't always know their way around an instrument. They may know a few chords, and that's enough for them. And then there are those who don't know that much. That doesn't negate their talent as a lyricist. So is Beyonce and others of her ilk artistic frauds claiming to be something more then they are? Since when has being a singer not been enough? Was it the day the true craft of songwriting died?
I'm not familiar with Beyonce's album credits, so I can't comment on her. But you might be surprised that sometimes even the most famous producers in music get production credits that should have gone to the artist or band they produced for. ::coughcoughQuincycoughJonescoughcough:: But you didn't hear that from moi. Some people find out so-and-so was the reason for this intro, or that coda, or that IDEA in a song, and they think so-and-so should have had a songwriting credit. That's NOT necessarily the case - not in the legal sense. There are arrangement credits, songwriting credits, production credits, etc. for a reason. I'm not saying you think so, but arrangement credits and songwriting credits are not interchangeable as some seem to think. This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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CynicKill said: I'm really enjoying the new Nina Sky album but guess how many people are credited with writing "Move Your Body?" Twelve people!
But maybe that's because of samples. ??? | |
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BinaryJustin said: CynicKill said: I'm really enjoying the new Nina Sky album but guess how many people are credited with writing "Move Your Body?" Twelve people!
But maybe that's because of samples. ??? Yeah I suppose that's possible, but how many samples can there be there? I know the basic track of the song is popular in reggea circles. The girls also get songwriting credits for the lyrics. |
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Supernova said: CynicKill said: Now I make small demos from my keyboard yet even I know the notes of the keys! Now I'm not saying she needs to know how to write music, but wouldn't someone who claims to be a songwriter at LEAST know that much?
Not necessarily. Some songwriters are purely lyricists. They don't always know their way around an instrument. They may know a few chords, and that's enough for them. And then there are those who don't know that much. That doesn't negate their talent as a lyricist. So is Beyonce and others of her ilk artistic frauds claiming to be something more then they are? Since when has being a singer not been enough? Was it the day the true craft of songwriting died?
I'm not familiar with Beyonce's album credits, so I can't comment on her. But you might be surprised that sometimes even the most famous producers in music get production credits that should have gone to the artist or band they produced for. ::coughcoughQuincycoughJonescoughcough:: But you didn't hear that from moi. Some people find out so-and-so was the reason for this intro, or that coda, or that IDEA in a song, and they think so-and-so should have had a songwriting credit. That's NOT necessarily the case - not in the legal sense. There are arrangement credits, songwriting credits, production credits, etc. for a reason. I'm not saying you think so, but arrangement credits and songwriting credits are not interchangeable as some seem to think. Beyonce always alluded to the fact that she's a producer. But she's currently being sued by a guy who claims he produced the track "Survivor" for her yet got no credit. The clumsy (yet deliciously vindictive) lyric is of course hers, but the publicity made it seem like she did a lot of the producing on that album and that track herself. A more believeable story was the one concerning "Bootylicious". She claims she heard "Edge of Seventeen" while on a plain and dug the guitar riff so much that she decided to make a song out of it. Then she came up with the name and the lyric. That sounds more like the kind of "producing" she is involved with. Which is cool. I mentioned that Beyonce produces to someone before and they made a joke, "What did she do, come up with the song titles?" I'm beginning to feel her sentiment. |
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Supernova said: CynicKill said: Now I make small demos from my keyboard yet even I know the notes of the keys! Now I'm not saying she needs to know how to write music, but wouldn't someone who claims to be a songwriter at LEAST know that much?
Not necessarily. Some songwriters are purely lyricists. They don't always know their way around an instrument. They may know a few chords, and that's enough for them. And then there are those who don't know that much. That doesn't negate their talent as a lyricist. So is Beyonce and others of her ilk artistic frauds claiming to be something more then they are? Since when has being a singer not been enough? Was it the day the true craft of songwriting died?
I'm not familiar with Beyonce's album credits, so I can't comment on her. But you might be surprised that sometimes even the most famous producers in music get production credits that should have gone to the artist or band they produced for. ::coughcoughQuincycoughJonescoughcough:: But you didn't hear that from moi. Some people find out so-and-so was the reason for this intro, or that coda, or that IDEA in a song, and they think so-and-so should have had a songwriting credit. That's NOT necessarily the case - not in the legal sense. There are arrangement credits, songwriting credits, production credits, etc. for a reason. I'm not saying you think so, but arrangement credits and songwriting credits are not interchangeable as some seem to think. What cracks me up is when Quincy Jones gives himself performing credit. Tamia can do a song and if Q produces it, it has to listed as Quincy Jones and Tamia.  And if I remember, he was listed solely under the song Secret Garden. Like Al B, El De Barge, James Ingram and Barry White were just singin' background for that cat. | |
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CynicKill said: ... And the most telling proof of all was when Prince was singing Beyonce's praises only to let drop that Beyonce didn't even know her musical scales. ...
Funny, I just watched the CNNfn interview from a week or so ago...in it Prince states that he was impressed with her knowledge of scales and such. He further stated, however, that he showed her how to play some simple chords on the piano, and encouraged her to learn the instrument to broaden her musical horizons ala Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin. If she does so, Prince stated, then "the sky would be the limit" for her. (clip is posted on a thread on housequake.com, I think you have to register as a HQ member to watch it though) http://www.housequake.com...adid=26463 "I would say that Prince's top thirty percent is great. Of that thirty percent, I'll bet the public has heard twenty percent of it." - Susan Rogers, "Hunting for Prince's Vault", BBC, 2015 |
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OdysseyMiles said: Supernova said: I'm not familiar with Beyonce's album credits, so I can't comment on her. But you might be surprised that sometimes even the most famous producers in music get production credits that should have gone to the artist or band they produced for. ::coughcoughQuincycoughJonescoughcough:: But you didn't hear that from moi. Some people find out so-and-so was the reason for this intro, or that coda, or that IDEA in a song, and they think so-and-so should have had a songwriting credit. That's NOT necessarily the case - not in the legal sense. There are arrangement credits, songwriting credits, production credits, etc. for a reason. I'm not saying you think so, but arrangement credits and songwriting credits are not interchangeable as some seem to think. What cracks me up is when Quincy Jones gives himself performing credit. Tamia can do a song and if Q produces it, it has to listed as Quincy Jones and Tamia. And if I remember, he was listed solely under the song Secret Garden. Like Al B, El De Barge, James Ingram and Barry White were just singin' background for that cat. I suppose the whole idea behind those albums of Quincy's was that those are his albums, and the idea was that he has all these guest vocalist on them, since he doesn't sing himself. So it was in fact Quincy Jones featuring Tamia or Quincy Jones featuring Al B et al. You don't see, for instance, when Quincy produced for Michael Jackson it listed as Quincy Jones featuring Michael Jackson. My take. |
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OdysseyMiles said: Supernova said: I'm not familiar with Beyonce's album credits, so I can't comment on her. But you might be surprised that sometimes even the most famous producers in music get production credits that should have gone to the artist or band they produced for. ::coughcoughQuincycoughJonescoughcough:: But you didn't hear that from moi. Some people find out so-and-so was the reason for this intro, or that coda, or that IDEA in a song, and they think so-and-so should have had a songwriting credit. That's NOT necessarily the case - not in the legal sense. There are arrangement credits, songwriting credits, production credits, etc. for a reason. I'm not saying you think so, but arrangement credits and songwriting credits are not interchangeable as some seem to think. What cracks me up is when Quincy Jones gives himself performing credit. Tamia can do a song and if Q produces it, it has to listed as Quincy Jones and Tamia. And if I remember, he was listed solely under the song Secret Garden. Like Al B, El De Barge, James Ingram and Barry White were just singin' background for that cat. Don't get me started on Quincy. I like the man's older music, but damn...must his name be attached as the song's performer to every damn track he produces? He's done this with many artists. I'm surprised It's My Party wasn't credited to Quincy Jones featuring Leslie Gore. Back on topic... CynicKill said: And the most telling proof of all was when Prince was singing Beyonce's praises only to let drop that Beyonce didn't even know her musical scales. Now I'm not saying she needs to know how to write music, but wouldn't someone who claims to be a songwriter at LEAST know that much?
I guess this is where I disagree. The generic definition of "song" comprises music and lyric. If you're gonna call yourself a songwriter you should know how to at least put a basic version of music and lyric together. Beyonce the composer? Beyonce the lyricist? Eh, I dunno. Whatever the hell it is she does, she's not that great at either. Fun and entertaining? Yeah. Armful of Grammys good? Nope! Something's wrong when Beyonce takes home more Grammys in one night that Prince has his entire career.  | |
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A more believeable story was the one concerning "Bootylicious". She claims she heard "Edge of Seventeen" while on a plain and dug the guitar riff so much that she decided to make a song out of it. Then she came up with the name and the lyric. That sounds more like the kind of "producing" she is involved with. Which is cool. I mentioned that Beyonce produces to someone before and they made a joke, "What did she do, come up with the song titles?" I'm beginning to feel her sentiment.[/quote] | |
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"A more believeable story was the one concerning "Bootylicious". She claims she heard "Edge of Seventeen" while on a plain and dug the guitar riff so much that she decided to make a song out of it. Then she came up with the name and the lyric. That sounds more like the kind of "producing" she is involved with. Which is cool. I mentioned that Beyonce produces to someone before and they made a joke, "What did she do, come up with the song titles?" I'm beginning to feel her sentiment."
Sorry about the first reply... I think Beyonce' is alright for what she's worth, but as far as the bootylicious thing goes, I know for a fact that she did not come up with the term herself. If you listen to the song "Dre Day" from The Chronic album, in Snoop's verse you will hear him refer to a girl as "so bootylicious". I've been wanting to get that off my chest for a while now... | |
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DonnaBelle said: "A more believeable story was the one concerning "Bootylicious". She claims she heard "Edge of Seventeen" while on a plain and dug the guitar riff so much that she decided to make a song out of it. Then she came up with the name and the lyric. That sounds more like the kind of "producing" she is involved with. Which is cool. I mentioned that Beyonce produces to someone before and they made a joke, "What did she do, come up with the song titles?" I'm beginning to feel her sentiment."
Sorry about the first reply... I think Beyonce' is alright for what she's worth, but as far as the bootylicious thing goes, I know for a fact that she did not come up with the term herself. If you listen to the song "Dre Day" from The Chronic album, in Snoop's verse you will hear him refer to a girl as "so bootylicious". I've been wanting to get that off my chest for a while now... I was just going to make that comment.  And if I remember correctly, being bootylicious was not a desirable thing in that song. He was in the middle of a put down and commented that "the rhymes you were kickin' were quite bootylicious." I'd like to hear him say that now and try to sound "street." | |
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SO WHAT? BACK IN DAY NO SINGER WRITE OWN SONG BING CROSBY FRANK SINATRA WHOEVER YOU LISTEN TO VOICE NOT WRITING TALENT IT WHEN SINGER LIE ABOUT WRITING OR SAY THEY MAKE UP BOOTYLICIOUS THAT NOT GOOD P o o |/, P o o |\ | |
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Hey, if Bounce wants songwriting credit on what is loosely called 'songs' on her album, more power to her for wanting to take credit for that garbage. There is nothing mind-blowing and deep about "Baby boy, you stay on my mind. Baby boy, you are so damn fine." | |
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RipHer2Shreds said: DonnaBelle said: "A more believeable story was the one concerning "Bootylicious". She claims she heard "Edge of Seventeen" while on a plain and dug the guitar riff so much that she decided to make a song out of it. Then she came up with the name and the lyric. That sounds more like the kind of "producing" she is involved with. Which is cool. I mentioned that Beyonce produces to someone before and they made a joke, "What did she do, come up with the song titles?" I'm beginning to feel her sentiment."
Sorry about the first reply... I think Beyonce' is alright for what she's worth, but as far as the bootylicious thing goes, I know for a fact that she did not come up with the term herself. If you listen to the song "Dre Day" from The Chronic album, in Snoop's verse you will hear him refer to a girl as "so bootylicious". I've been wanting to get that off my chest for a while now... I was just going to make that comment. And if I remember correctly, being bootylicious was not a desirable thing in that song. He was in the middle of a put down and commented that "the rhymes you were kickin' were quite bootylicious." I'd like to hear him say that now and try to sound "street." Yeah, this irked me as well whenever the media would say that "bootylicious" was a "Beyonce-coined" term. I remember hearing Snoop say it back in the day. I figured it was just the media's ignorance of the culture. I guess she could be credited with giving the term "new meaning" if anything. | |
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OdysseyMiles said: RipHer2Shreds said: I was just going to make that comment. And if I remember correctly, being bootylicious was not a desirable thing in that song. He was in the middle of a put down and commented that "the rhymes you were kickin' were quite bootylicious."[/b] I'd like to hear him say that now and try to sound "street." Yeah, this irked me as well whenever the media would say that "bootylicious" was a "Beyonce-coined" term. I remember hearing Snoop say it back in the day. I figured it was just the media's ignorance of the culture. I guess she could be credited with giving the term "new meaning" if anything. Even more irksome is her talking about the issue on Oprah and how she was excited to be in Webster's because she "invented a word." | |
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CynicKill said: Beyonce always alluded to the fact that she's a producer. But she's currently being sued by a guy who claims he produced the track "Survivor" for her yet got no credit. The clumsy (yet deliciously vindictive) lyric is of course hers, but the publicity made it seem like she did a lot of the producing on that album and that track herself.
I cant think why anyone would want to claim that piece of garbage as theirs.I liken that "song" to being hit repeatedly on the head by a hammer.She herself is not a bad singer,tho.She could definitely use some better songs. "...all you need ...is justa touch...of mojo hand....." | |
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DonnaBelle said: "A more believeable story was the one concerning "Bootylicious". She claims she heard "Edge of Seventeen" while on a plain and dug the guitar riff so much that she decided to make a song out of it. Then she came up with the name and the lyric. That sounds more like the kind of "producing" she is involved with. Which is cool. I mentioned that Beyonce produces to someone before and they made a joke, "What did she do, come up with the song titles?" I'm beginning to feel her sentiment."
Sorry about the first reply... I think Beyonce' is alright for what she's worth, but as far as the bootylicious thing goes, I know for a fact that she did not come up with the term herself. If you listen to the song "Dre Day" from The Chronic album, in Snoop's verse you will hear him refer to a girl as "so bootylicious". I've been wanting to get that off my chest for a while now... actually he wasn't refering to no girl being bootylicious,the context in which he uses the word is dissing fellow rappers Eazy E.,Luke,& Tim Dog..."and them rhymes you were kicking were quite bootylicious(wack)....you get with doggy dog oh is he crazy".....Bootylicious to me always meant WACK,BOOTY,GARBAGE.....not this corny bullshit Destiny's Child put out..... I am not African. Africa is in me, but I cannot return.
I am not taína. Taíno is in me, but there is no way back. I am not european. Europe lives in me, but I have no home there. I am new. History made me. My first language was spanglish. And I am | |
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RipHer2Shreds said: OdysseyMiles said: Yeah, this irked me as well whenever the media would say that "bootylicious" was a "Beyonce-coined" term. I remember hearing Snoop say it back in the day. I figured it was just the media's ignorance of the culture. I guess she could be credited with giving the term "new meaning" if anything. Even more irksome is her talking about the issue on Oprah and how she was excited to be in Webster's because she "invented a word." Heavens to murgatroid.  This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes. | |
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could many of those songwriting credits be due to the use of samples?
just curious. "I don't need your forgiveness, cos I've been saved by Jesus, so fuck you." | |
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RipHer2Shreds said: OdysseyMiles said: Yeah, this irked me as well whenever the media would say that "bootylicious" was a "Beyonce-coined" term. I remember hearing Snoop say it back in the day. I figured it was just the media's ignorance of the culture. I guess she could be credited with giving the term "new meaning" if anything. Even more irksome is her talking about the issue on Oprah and how she was excited to be in Webster's because she "invented a word." Nobody in the audience got up and checked her ass?!?! | |
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Janfriend said: RipHer2Shreds said: Even more irksome is her talking about the issue on Oprah and how she was excited to be in Webster's because she "invented a word." Nobody in the audience got up and checked her ass?!?! Well it was the Oprah show, and after all - if it comes from the mouth of one of her guests, it must be the truth. | |
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Janfriend said: RipHer2Shreds said: Even more irksome is her talking about the issue on Oprah and how she was excited to be in Webster's because she "invented a word." Nobody in the audience got up and checked her ass?!?! What an ass .... There are three sides to every story. My side, your side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each one differently | |
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Supernova said: CynicKill said: Now I make small demos from my keyboard yet even I know the notes of the keys! Now I'm not saying she needs to know how to write music, but wouldn't someone who claims to be a songwriter at LEAST know that much?
Not necessarily. Some songwriters are purely lyricists. They don't always know their way around an instrument. They may know a few chords, and that's enough for them. And then there are those who don't know that much. That doesn't negate their talent as a lyricist. So is Beyonce and others of her ilk artistic frauds claiming to be something more then they are? Since when has being a singer not been enough? Was it the day the true craft of songwriting died?
I'm not familiar with Beyonce's album credits, so I can't comment on her. But you might be surprised that sometimes even the most famous producers in music get production credits that should have gone to the artist or band they produced for. ::coughcoughQuincycoughJonescoughcough:: But you didn't hear that from moi. Some people find out so-and-so was the reason for this intro, or that coda, or that IDEA in a song, and they think so-and-so should have had a songwriting credit. That's NOT necessarily the case - not in the legal sense. There are arrangement credits, songwriting credits, production credits, etc. for a reason. I'm not saying you think so, but arrangement credits and songwriting credits are not interchangeable as some seem to think. did I tell you before how much I love you?  | |
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Going off a vague memory of music classes in college... I think only the melody and lyrics are copyrighted, therefore considered a "song". Now, to me, I think that's a bunch of baloney. It seems that people would be able to get full credit for a song when all they came up with was the lyrics and the melody for those lyrics. Then the producer does a lot of filling in. And I know there are people who are song doctors for a living... meaning they get songwritting credit because they fixed one line in a song that the lyricist just couldn't figure out, or even just the TITLE of the song...
 [This message was edited Tue Aug 3 16:46:40 2004 by VinaBlue] | |
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