Ok, I wanted to listen to some good modern vocal talent tonight, so I pulled out a few of Mariah and Luther's old albums. Mariah was at the peak of her vocal powers during this era (ca. 1990-95), but tonight I was struck not by the voice but by how good the first four albums (Mariah Carey, Emotions, Music Box, Daydream) actually were - impeccable pop, guaranteed to lift you up if you're depressed. I had forgotten how good she could be.

But Mariah's later records (Rainbow, Glitter, Charmbracelet et. all) all follow essentially the same formula (albeit with an increasing concentration of pop-rappers). So why does the Law Of Diminshing Returns apply so well to Mariah's post-Daydream career?

Personally, I think it's because there's a certain sincerity in her earlier music - she sounded as if she actually meant what she was singing. It is a superfluous observation (although a correct one) to note that as Mariah discarded her clothes and her class, the class and style that defined her earlier music also disappeared. Why did the demure brunette with the down-to-earth personality - who sung tenderly about commitment, loss, longing, etc. - morph into a 13-year-old woman-child with a "sugar daddy", a plethora of rapper boyfriends, and a penchant for barely-there hotpants? I really have no idea. It was, however, the beginning of the end, the death knell for her music and image. Stuff like this is best left to no-talents. Mariah claims that she wasn't allowed to be who she wanted to be during the early years, that her "girl-next-door" image was a construct of Tommy Mottola and Sony. But it's truly difficult to believe that spin, since she has never sounded comfortable or looked at ease in the role - it's as if she didn't know what "being sexy" actually entailed so she reverted to a pre-teen conception of naively provocative and completely submissive female sexuality. Sexy Mariah would take her clothes off but never do anything really naughty (and how dare you even suggest it.) And so she was stuck in that curious grey zone. Ironically, I always thought she was much, much sexier when she had class - she was a genuinely attractive woman.

But most importantly, Mariah lost the veneer of toughness, independence and spunk that worked so well to her advantage on earlier songs like "Someday". Compare that hit with shoddily-produced drivel such as "Heartbreaker". In "Someday", she's wise and confident ("I know you'll soon discover/ needing me in spite of all the others"), and also sure of her unique worth ("you'll change your mind and call my name/as soon as you find they're all the same"). And she isn't taking the asshole back ("Just think again 'cause I won't need your love anymore"). Sexy Mariah, however, is a desperate ("If I do the things you want to do the way that I used to do, would you love me, baby?"), foolish ("It's a shame to be so euphoric and weak/but I just keep on coming back incessantly") woman-child with a penchant for skimpy shorts and pillow fights (?????). That's probably the best example of the schism that exists between the adult sexuality and childlike innocence Mariah loves to simultaneously project. They don't mesh, and she's completely unconvincing. This sort of thing defines her post-Butterfly work. It culminated in "Loverboy", which was nothing more than 3:50 of breathy sighs and nonsensically suggestive lyrics.

Sexy Mariah was shoved into the background for Charmbracelet, but Mariah's vocals sounded completely washed out and lifeless (even damaged), the emotions seemed stilted and forced and a different type of desperation dominated the record. Nothing resonates, and the spark - whatever it was she had, it worked - is absent.

I really hope she recovers some of her past with this new record, because she was one of the best vocalists of the 90s (some people doubt whether she can salvage even half the power she once had). I doubt she will, though, judging by early reports.

Mariah seems like she needs to believe what she sings. Somewhere along the way, she lost faith, and it clearly shows.

Any thoughts?
[This message was edited Sun Jul 4 8:56:39 2004 by VoicesCarry]

I really miss the old Mariah. Her music used to grab me but ever since 1999, she's been following trends and she sounds bad too. I too hope she comes back to her senses and makes a kick-ass CD.

hey i happen 2 think Charmbraclet and Glitter R Really Nice.

Moonwalkbjrain said:

I really like the Glitter soundtrack. It was good. Too bad the movie was so awful that no one gave the album a chance

MARIAH CAREY

I KNEW the day I heard she was leaving Mottola because she wanted to go into "acting" and "he was holding her back" and at that time some of her new cuts were of the hip/hop genre, that Mariah Carey would become the hasbeen she is today. KNEW IT!!!
She had the voice and style that she could grow into a Barbra Streisand type. Same for Whitney Houston. Mariah and Whitney appealed to the soft rock crowd or work radio crowd... and say what you want, those are the people who will pay box office $150 per ticket any day, all day without a new hit record to support a major money making tour.

Look at Streisand... she does one show a year and nets about $1 mil for one night's work.
Mariah was building that type of audience with Mottola, but she shot herself in the foot for thinking she was "JLo" sexy. Sorry she doesn't have the wares to be JLo and has the natural talent that there was no need to be a JLo.
Now Celine Dion who incidentally is still managed by Mottola (unless that has changed since he left Sony) is building the audience where she doesn't need a new hit to still pack the crowds.

Janfriend said:

If "last Night A DJ.." and "Loverboy remix" and "Dont Stop" were left off the album as well as the movie being shipped stright to video or something...plus being released at a later date...it wudda been given a chance.


Anyway. I agree with the topic completely. Charmbracelet REALLY lacked any emotion and is was very bland r&b basically with some few exceptions like "Yours" "Subtle Invitation" "Bringing On The Heartbreak" and My Saving Grace". Her earlier albums did though...not really touched a young audience. She had 2 "do what she had 2 do" 2 get mo popular...but the thing is..SHE STAYED STUCK in that persona after the success of Butterfly.

No one cares as much almost like Janet. Janet does the sex thing .. people start turning their heads, Mariah... turned heads. No one care about that any more..got 2 grow the fuck up! Leave the bullshit for the kids.
[This message was edited Sat Jul 3 22:57:55 2004 by paisleypark4]

People like Janet, and Mariah doing the sexy in your face act is covering for lack of talent. Follow Sade's lead and have some class with your act if you don't have a great voice (or in Mariah's case, great material to work with). Sometimes class will get you a following (once again refering to Sade, who imo can't sing and is all style)

prodigalfan said:

i think sade has a great voice - she just doesn't have to whoop and screech and pack every note with a ton of melisma to get her point across.

Janfriend said:

why does everyone say that glitter the movie sucked? i really liked it.



yes xactly! sade is one of those ppl who doesn't have to prove she has talent by overdoing it.
[This message was edited Sun Jul 4 1:02:30 2004 by Moonwalkbjrain]

My daughter and I love to listen to Mariah's cd's. My daughter is a big fan of hers. Mariah needs a "kick ass" cd for sure. But I enjoy her old and current material. Those pipes of hers are so beautiful. The is a beautiful talented person.

Don't want to get off subject but Sade cracks, hits flat notes and sings thru her nose when she is "belting out". Not a great voice at all.
I saw her sing live on Johnny Carson and she sounded like Kim Carnes you know like she had laryngitis (sp?) and I thought "what showmanship, even though she is sick 'the show must go on'. " About 2 weeks later, I saw her on SNL, and the same crappy voice. It was then that I realize "this woman can't sing."

prodigalfan said:

Who the fuck cares? If you can get yo point across without bending or hitting any notes in the book then way to go, do the damn thang Jack. Billie Holiday doesn't know a goddamn thing about singing too but staying level on-key yet she's being considered as the Most Important Lady Of Jazz music(winning against bonified powerhouse vocalists like Ella & Sarah). Doesn't that make you think a lil' about why they give her that much credit despite her lack of range? Same shit applys to Sade, the woman knows about her singing voice b4 anybody tells her about it but the reason why she's easily accepted becoz she's reaching her OWN level unlike reaching somebody else's level which you ought to be braind-dead if you can't give her the props 4 it.

Sorry 4 hashing off-topic, Carry

The MAIN problem about Mariah Carey is trying to prove herself without having to. To the point of humilating I'm sad to say, only becoz it doesn't seem like her. God 4bbides, I don't judge her at all becoz 4 one she's a grown lady who could handle the outcome of her actions and she's an inscure person which is not a pretty state of mind at all.

I love her and if she could live with the idea of doing this 2 herself then no need 4 me to ramble the same ol' saga all over again, if she's not happy with it then sooner or later she's gonna pull herself out of it. Keep in mind that she's an aries sista lol yep, them arians are FIGHTERS by nature and it will cost them anything if it requires to win their battles, and I believe she's battling demons of her own(inscurity is a MAIN one and I'm sure there're other ones).

Overall, I don't worry about her longivity at all becoz she got substance that will keep her 4 the next whateva years she wants to spend in this industry. Anyway, I hope she doesn't stop herself from growing musically and reaching a solid direction that she will be happy with 1st & 4most(cuz I 4 one don't believe that what she's doing is pleasent 4 her).

The sista still got my mad love,,,either way!

Harlepolis said:

I agree with you about Sade and Mariah. There's so much more to a voice than bombastic tirades and hitting every note perfectly. That is why we love vocalists like Nina Simone, Billie Holliday, Belinda Carlisle, Debbie Harry, etc. Their voices are tremendously interesting because they aren't technically perfect, you know what I mean? They're perfect in other ways.
[This message was edited Sun Jul 4 9:48:57 2004 by VoicesCarry]

Harlepolis said:

I give her props for having a successful career in spite of not being able to sing. And yes she does get her point across. Doesn't change that she does NOT have a voice. Sorry if that doesn't sit well to you, but the truth stands...

prodigalfan said:

You mean your opinion stands.

VoicesCarry said:

Which is why I don't like Mariah's style, all style no substance, she doesn't get me to feel the song, she just skims over the top and techincally hit it but doesn't make me feel it.
Teena Marie sometimes will miss a note. But I love her anyway. Sade's voice gives me a headache if I listen to it too long.

VoicesCarry said:

I will give you that... it is my opinion.

prodigalfan said:

Opinion? Yes but TRUTH? In ploto maybe NOT earth!

If thats the case with you then Janis Joplin, Billie Holiday, Nina Simone didn't have great voices and if that sit well to you then what can I say child lol more power 2 you
[This message was edited Sun Jul 4 9:59:47 2004 by Harlepolis]

prodigalfan said:

Yeah, Mariah's earlier stuff I thought was emotional and touching. On her newer material she's lost it.

I used to be a HUGE Mariah fan in the beginnings of her carrer. I was one of those people who brought her to Czech republic. I still remember telling people I love Mariah and they were like: "who is it?" But after Music Box I became more and more dissapointed of her. She seemed to change from this enthusiastic lady o that "barbie" which is something I never liked. I seemed that she was more and more trying to get attention as a sexbomb and with her voice, it was something I´ve never understood.

Well said BTW. i completely agree. That´s how I feel about her as well.

I have never been a Mariah fan, but I will admit that her voice was pretty good in the beginning of her career, but it was all over when she went hip-hop and turnied into a sex 'this is who I really am' kitten . She has officially joined the whisper queens club(Britney, Mya, Janet, JLo, Ashanti). All the breathey singing has got to go, along with the hip-hop collabos and the 'see, I am so down' image. And another thing, she should have never been compared to Minnie Riperton . Mariah wishes she did have a voice as beautiful as Minnie. Minnie had a voice of an angel, so pure. You would have never heard her whispering through songs or singing with a rasp in her voice.

VoicesCarry said: