peedub said:

RODSERLING said:

No, I just said that obviously Londell thinks he can make good money out of movie, and that a bad rep and bad buzz could cancel that, or in the end, earning him less money. Prince is not in JLL, JB or Miles Davis category. Their music was listened to your grandfather, now Prince was more current.

My grandfather listened to Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller. I listen to Benny Goodman and Glenn Miller. I listen to James Brown and Miles Davis. Anyhow... you're talking loud and saying nothing.

purplethunder3121 said:

As a now old woman who grew up with a physically abusive father and faced physical abuse in an adult relationship I say to Jill Jones and company, show the receipts. If you are going to accuse a dead man who can't defend himself decades later then prove it. Back up your allegations with evidence or shut up.

It doesn't matter if you are a woman or not, thought processes like these are what allowd Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby to flourish in their antics for so many years

I'm starting to understand that the people who would cancel Prince over this accusation are some of the very people that claim to be his fans.

Congratulations. You're validating the estate's belief about the documentary and contributing to the lack of new releases.

djThunderfunk said:

bizzie said:

.

I recall that there was some reporting that he also uttered homophobic slurs on occasion in the 1980s; let's not forget that Prince grew up a Seventh Day Adventists and those aren't exactly progressive people.

.

If you're talking about the homophobic slur that starts with an F and rhymes with hag... EVERYBODY uttered it on occasion in the 1980s. It wasn't considered as bad as the N word back then.

Don't do this. Few people had sympaty with queer people in the 80s, but it was HORRIBLE when people said it.

djThunderfunk said:

I'm starting to understand that the people who would cancel Prince over this accusation are some of the very people that claim to be his fans.

Congratulations. You're validating the estate's belief about the documentary and contributing to the lack of new releases.

Where have you seen that, specifically post-wise? I don't think anyone would "cancel" Prince, it is more just revealing that he made mistakes and was a flawed person, not that he is "canceled" and that nobody should listen to his music or enjoy what he did, no?

FancyLesbian said:

djThunderfunk said:

If you're talking about the homophobic slur that starts with an F and rhymes with hag... EVERYBODY uttered it on occasion in the 1980s. It wasn't considered as bad as the N word back then.

Don't do this. Few people had sympaty with queer people in the 80s, but it was HORRIBLE when people said it.

Don't do what?

Bizzie said: "there was some reporting that he also uttered homophobic slurs on occasion in the 1980s"

As if that proves what a bigot he was in the 80s, but it doesn't, using the word in the 80s was normalized. We don't judge people in the past based on the morals of today. That's just asinine.

strawberryletter23 said:

djThunderfunk said:

I'm starting to understand that the people who would cancel Prince over this accusation are some of the very people that claim to be his fans.

Congratulations. You're validating the estate's belief about the documentary and contributing to the lack of new releases.

Where have you seen that, specifically post-wise? I don't think anyone would "cancel" Prince, it is more just revealing that he made mistakes and was a flawed person, not that he is "canceled" and that nobody should listen to his music or enjoy what he did, no?

I'm not going back through the thread looking for examples but some here are all set to condemn Prince based on Jill's claim 40 years after the fact with no corroboration or context and without Prince being around to give his side. At least one even getting rid of all their albums because of it.

djThunderfunk said:

FancyLesbian said:

Don't do this. Few people had sympaty with queer people in the 80s, but it was HORRIBLE when people said it.

Don't do what?

Bizzie said: "there was some reporting that he also uttered homophobic slurs on occasion in the 1980s"

As if that proves what a bigot he was in the 80s, but it doesn't, using the word in the 80s was normalized. We don't judge people in the past based on the morals of today. That's just asinine.

Please shut up already. You're stupid, we get it. Nuff said.

scififilmnerd said:

djThunderfunk said:

Don't do what?

Bizzie said: "there was some reporting that he also uttered homophobic slurs on occasion in the 1980s"

As if that proves what a bigot he was in the 80s, but it doesn't, using the word in the 80s was normalized. We don't judge people in the past based on the morals of today. That's just asinine.

Please shut up already. You're stupid, we get it. Nuff said.

WTF?!? Did I miss something? I don't remember you and I having any recent interactions much less a back and forth in this debate. Did I cross some imaginary line or something? You seem offended at my retort to Bizzie's comment. Sorry, but I know you were around in the 80s and if you remember those days you know I'm right about that word. It's a fact that it was commonly said in the 80s and it's a fact that judging what someone did in another time by current standards is completely unfair and ignorant.

Look here, I'm not arguing that using the word is okay. I'm not trying to bring it back. I didn't even bring it up. Bizzie did, and he did so as a means of denigrating Prince's character. I pushed back because that's just stupid. Everything else I've said is pushback to those like you that are upset at my response to him. I realize it wasn't a good thing that it was commonly used then, just as I'm sure you realize that it was in fact commonly used and not considered as horrible to say as it is today.

I'm pretty sure you understand the point I'm making, don't get triggered or read more into what I said.

[Edited 10/5/24 11:42am]

djThunderfunk said:

scififilmnerd said:

Please shut up already. You're stupid, we get it. Nuff said.

WTF?!? Did I miss something? I don't remember you and I having any recent interactions much less a back and forth in this debate. Did I cross some imaginary line or something? You seem offended at my retort to Bizzie's comment. Sorry, but I know you were around in the 80s and if you remember those days you know I'm right about that word. It's a fact that it was commonly said in the 80s and it's a fact that judging what someone did in another time by current standards is completely unfair and ignorant.

Only a homophobe would use the arguments you do. "Everyone else did it too" doesn't right a wrong. Yes, I was around in the 80's and calling people "queer" or "faggot" was as offensive then as it is now - certainly where I grew up. Dunno what neighborhood you grew up in, but being prejudiced was not alright just because "everyone else were prejudiced, too," which really - in the 80's they weren't. That's the decade where people where enlightened about gays, Prince being a part of that, but also the proliference of gay artists like Boy George, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Jimmy Somerville, Dead Or Alive, Pet Shop Boys, Divine... So, using slurs like "faggot" WAS frowned upon. Yes, Dire Straits had a #1 hit in the US in 1985, Money For Nothing featuring Sting that used the F-word, and that was what us sexually liberated Prince fans were up against. (There is also a Christmas song, I think Fairytale Of New York by The Pogues where there has been a demand in recent years for radio to censor the F-word or not air it at all.)

And no, we haven't interacted on this thread but I have been following it and your seemingly endless defense of Prince, refusing to believe anything bad about him without proof and if there was proof you'd probably say it was forged. It gets tedious.

Well, fans who have read all the books where biographers have talked to people who knew Prince or who have listened to podcasts and YouTube interviews with people who knew Prince aren't really surprised by the image the Netflix documentary alledgedly portrays of Prince - it fits with what we already knew. Like, the story about Prince asking Wendy and Lisa to renounce their homosexuality has been known for decades. He later made up for it by performing with them on TV.

I've never found Prince sexy or even thought I would like him if I knew him because he had a harem and reportedly enjoyed playing mindgames and was controlling and didn't take "no" for an answer. But that doesn't change the fact that I still think he was the greatest star of the 80s and 90s. (I didn't enjoy his Jehova years that much.)

As for Netflix versus the Estate... Well, the fans lost. We're not getting the documentary and a Purple Rain SDE or anything else until the matter is resolved. And crying for proof that Jill was hit by Prince after her slapping him won't change anything. And really, was not him joining the Witnesses much worse? The Rock Messias preaching love and sex let down his followers and became a follower of a prejudiced religion? If that didn't get Prince cancelled, I doubt him hitting Jill will.

[Edited 10/5/24 12:22pm]

scififilmnerd said:

djThunderfunk said:

WTF?!? Did I miss something? I don't remember you and I having any recent interactions much less a back and forth in this debate. Did I cross some imaginary line or something? You seem offended at my retort to Bizzie's comment. Sorry, but I know you were around in the 80s and if you remember those days you know I'm right about that word. It's a fact that it was commonly said in the 80s and it's a fact that judging what someone did in another time by current standards is completely unfair and ignorant.

Only a homophobe would use the arguments you do. "Everyone else did it too" doesn't right a wrong.

I have not argued that it was RIGHT, I have argued that it was common and using it did not carry the stigma of bigotry that it does today. I am arguing that Prince using the word in the 80s is not an example of poor character or bigotry but a use of common slang at the time he used it. Stating that fact is not "homophobic". It is not a defense of using the word. I am saying that if said it in the 80s it should only be judged by the commonality of the use in the 80s.

Yes, I was around in the 80's and calling people "queer" or "faggot" was as offensive then as it is now - certainly where I grew up. Dunno what neighborhood you grew up in, but being prejudiced was not alright just because "everyone else were prejudiced, too," which really - in the 80's they weren't.

I grew up in America. And in America, in the 80s, the word was used frequently, and yes it was derogatory, of course it was, but it did NOT carry the stigma it does today and did not invoke the same response as say a white person calling a person of color the n-word. I have a hard time believing you don't understand this point.

That's the decade where people where enlightened about gays, Prince being a part of that, but also the proliference of gay artists like Boy George, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Jimmy Somerville, Dead Or Alive, Pet Shop Boys, Divine... So, using slurs like "faggot" WAS frowned upon. Yes, Dire Straits had a #1 hit in the US in 1985, Money For Nothing featuring Sting that used the F-word, and that was what us sexually liberated Prince fans were up against. (There is also a Christmas song, I think Fairytale Of New York by The Pogues where there has been a demand in recent years for radio to censor the F-word or not air it at all.)

And no, we haven't interacted on this thread but I have been following it and your seemingly endless defense of Prince, refusing to believe anything bad about him without proof and if there was proof you'd probably say it was forged. It gets tedious.

I DO BELIEVE it. I believe Jill. What she says is very possible. Prince grew up exposed to abuse and violence so absolutely it is possible that her account is true. If you really have read what I have said you would have seen me state this at least twice already. I don't believe her account is enough to condemn him now and I don't believe her story being in the doc will cause him to be cancelled. I am for the entire 9hr doc being released.

That said, whether I believe it or not her accusation is just that, an accusation. It's unsubstatiated and uncorroborated until her friend who was with her or Prince's management confirms it, and even then, we still don't get Prince's side. Condemning him for it without these things is just wrong.

Well, fans who have read all the books where biographers have talked to people who knew Prince or who have listened to podcasts and YouTube interviews with people who knew Prince aren't really surprised by the image the Netflix documentary alledgedly portrays of Prince - it fits with what we already knew. Like, the story about Prince asking Wendy and Lisa to renounce their homosexuality has been known for decades. He later made up for it by performing with them on TV.

I agree with this 100%. Prince was a man. He was fallable. We all knew about the W&L thing over 20 years ago and we all that he was being extremely shitty.

I've never found Prince sexy or even thought I would like him if I knew him because he had a harem and reportedly enjoyed playing mindgames and was controlling and didn't take "no" for an answer. But that doesn't change the fact that I still think he was the greatest star of the 80s and 90s. (I didn't enjoy his Jehova years that much.)

As for Netflix versus the Estate... Well, the fans lost. We're not getting the documentary and a Purple Rain SDE or anything else until the matter is resolved. And crying for proof that Jill was hit by Prince after slapping him won't change anything.

I think the ONLY thing we are disagreeing on here is wheter or not it was common in the 80s for the homophoblic slur to be used and whether or not people found it shocking or biggoted. It was ignorant sure, but it did not carry the weight it does now, that's just a fact. And again, I didn't bring that up, Bizzie did, I merely argued that it was a different time and considered differently. Maybe you and your friends were extremely progressive and 20 years ahead of society but you know the country wasn't quite there yet. By the time Prince tried to get W&L to renounce their homosexuality, just about everyone was on board in condemning him for it, including me, and including everyone here on the org.

For the record, I want the entire doc released. If it shows the good and bad then great, Prince was human. If it focuses on the bad, well fuck netflix for sensationalizing the worst aspects for the controversy, but either way, put it out so we can get on with new music releases.

I was called a "blue-eyed devil" and "crackah" back in the day.

didn't know why, and i'm sure those that called me that didn't know why, either.

It's all from upbringing and those that were influenced by the times they grew up in.

It's not something one can translate to the present anymore because of the huge movement in the last decade.

What happened back in the timeframe of Prince growing up and developing in that environment, then becoming a public figure in the music world and using slang and jargen of that time is just what it was back then.

It's a time capsule that can't be ridiculed anymore.

We all have grown (i hope!) and can separate then and now.

nayroo2002 said:

I was called a "blue-eyed devil" and "crackah" back in the day.

didn't know why, and i'm sure those that called me that didn't know why, either.

It's all from upbringing and those that were influenced by the times they grew up in.

It's not something one can translate to the present anymore because of the huge movement in the last decade.

What happened back in the timeframe of Prince growing up and developing in that environment, then becoming a public figure in the music world and using slang and jargen of that time is just what it was back then.

It's a time capsule that can't be ridiculed anymore.

We all have grown (i hope!) and can separate then and now.

I think everyone here agrees, slurs are bad. Don't do it.

djThunderfunk said:

scififilmnerd said:

I think the ONLY thing we are disagreeing on here is wheter or not it was common in the 80s for the homophoblic slur to be used and whether or not people found it shocking or biggoted. It was ignorant sure, but it did not carry the weight it does now, that's just a fact. And again, I didn't bring that up, Bizzie did, I merely argued that it was a different time and considered differently. Maybe you and your friends were extremely progressive and 20 years ahead of society but you know the country wasn't quite there yet. By the time Prince tried to get W&L to renounce their homosexuality, just about everyone was on board in condemning him for it, including me, and including everyone here on the org.

For the record, I want the entire doc released. If it shows the good and bad then great, Prince was human. If it focuses on the bad, well fuck netflix for sensationalizing the worst aspects for the controversy, but either way, put it out so we can get on with new music releases.

Okay, then. I guess I assumed from your defensive stance of Prince not being around to defend himself, that you were one of the fans screaming in denial "Jill is a liar!" Sorry 'bout the misunderstanding. Anyway, I can understand why Jill had kept quiet of the incident while Prince was alive and she was hoping for a singing career, because he might've retaliated and ruined her singing career - but now that career is seemingly over anyway, so it's probably safer for her to talk now that he's dead

Well, I grew up in Denmark - the first country in the world to legalize same-sex mariage in 1989, so yeah, I guess me and my friends might've been progressive compared to the US. So with those environmental differences in mind, I won't say any more on the subject and assume your remarks weren't homophobic at all.

I'm for Netflix releasing the documentary too so we can get to the music releases as well, but I can understand why the Estate won't approve the doc because they have purple sheets and coffee mugs to sell, so they can't have Prince's image tarnished.

djThunderfunk said:

nayroo2002 said:

I was called a "blue-eyed devil" and "crackah" back in the day.

didn't know why, and i'm sure those that called me that didn't know why, either.

It's all from upbringing and those that were influenced by the times they grew up in.

It's not something one can translate to the present anymore because of the huge movement in the last decade.

What happened back in the timeframe of Prince growing up and developing in that environment, then becoming a public figure in the music world and using slang and jargen of that time is just what it was back then.

It's a time capsule that can't be ridiculed anymore.

We all have grown (i hope!) and can separate then and now.

I think everyone here agrees, slurs are bad. Don't do it.

When Morris Day calls Prince the F-word in Purple Rain, well... Morris IS the bad guy isn't he, and Prince the kind of character that could be perceived as gay by his appearence. So I was never offended by that.

Strawberrylova123 said:

RODSERLING said:

Sure. But after Leaving Neverland, MJ streaming numbers exploded It was like after Living With MJ. One could think this was to destroyed his image, but it made him popular again, and he sold more discs during that year than in the year following the release of Invincible.

Exactly my point, cancel culture doesn’t exist. MJ was accused of the worst thing ever imaginable but his music still lives on. Prince will be fine.

difference was he was innocent. don't see R. Kelly on the radio anymore.

sizzle reel from a proposed reality show jill and cat were in circa 2013. in it, jill speaks of an incident involving herself and prince that jill describes as a "vicious fight" that made "chris brown and rihanna look like kid's play" :

https://vimeo.com/64335305?share=copy

scififilmnerd said:

djThunderfunk said:

Okay, then. I guess I assumed from your defensive stance of Prince not being around to defend himself, that you were one of the fans screaming in denial "Jill is a liar!" Sorry 'bout the misunderstanding. Anyway, I can understand why Jill had kept quiet of the incident while Prince was alive and she was hoping for a singing career, because he might've retaliated and ruined her singing career - but now that career is seemingly over anyway, so it's probably safer for her to talk now that he's dead

Well, I grew up in Denmark - the first country in the world to legalize same-sex mariage in 1989, so yeah, I guess me and my friends might've been progressive compared to the US. So with those environmental differences in mind, I won't say any more on the subject and assume your remarks weren't homophobic at all.

I'm for Netflix releasing the documentary too so we can get to the music releases as well, but I can understand why the Estate won't approve the doc because they have purple sheets and coffee mugs to sell, so they can't have Prince's image tarnished.

I'm sincerely happy that any misunderstandings we had seem to be cleared up. Also, I had forgotten that you're not based in the U.S., and yes, that probably does indicate a difference in the culture at the time. Sorry if I didn't articulate myself clearly and contributed to any misunderstandings. I've greatly enjoyed your contributions to the org these past decades and meant no disrespect. Peace!

BlueShakooo said:

Well, for me, DJThunderfunk's arguments are pretty realistic, honest and coherent. I live in Germany and grew up here, but I still understand completely what he means, because I dare say that things were no different here (for the most part) in the 80s.

Thanks, Blue!

djThunderfunk said:

I'm sincerely happy that any misunderstandings we had seem to be cleared up. Also, I had forgotten that you're not based in the U.S., and yes, that probably does indicate a difference in the culture at the time. Sorry if I didn't articulate myself clearly and contributed to any misunderstandings. I've greatly enjoyed your contributions to the org these past decades and meant no disrespect. Peace!

Thank you for the kind words.

And sorry for calling you the I-word. I just got a little upset and just reacted without thinking it through. I'm glad we cleared the cultural misunderstandings, too.

scififilmnerd said:

djThunderfunk said:

I'm sincerely happy that any misunderstandings we had seem to be cleared up. Also, I had forgotten that you're not based in the U.S., and yes, that probably does indicate a difference in the culture at the time. Sorry if I didn't articulate myself clearly and contributed to any misunderstandings. I've greatly enjoyed your contributions to the org these past decades and meant no disrespect. Peace!

Thank you for the kind words.

And sorry for calling you the I-word. I just got a little upset and just reacted without thinking it through. I'm glad we cleared the cultural misunderstandings, too.

Thank you, I appreciate that and harbor no hard feelings.

andrewcherry said:

djThunderfunk said:

"It wasn't considered BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE as bad as the N word back then."

"...using the word in the 80s was normalized BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE."

"it was in fact commonly used BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE and not considered BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE as horrible to say as it is today."

"I have argued that it was common AMONG STRAIGHT PEOPLE and using it did not carry the stigma of bigotry FROM STRAIGHT PEOPLE that it does today."

"it did NOT carry the stigma AMONG STRAIGHT PEOPLE it does today and did not invoke the same response FROM OTHER STRAIGHT PEOPLE as say a white person calling a person of color the n-word."

"...whether or not STRAIGHT people found it shocking or biggoted."

"...it did not carry the weight it does now FOR STRAIGHT PEOPLE, that's just a fact."

Since you still don't seem to get it, I fixed your arguments for you.

dustoff said:

djThunderfunk said:

"It wasn't considered BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE as bad as the N word back then."

"...using the word in the 80s was normalized BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE."

"it was in fact commonly used BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE and not considered BY STRAIGHT PEOPLE as horrible to say as it is today."

"I have argued that it was common AMONG STRAIGHT PEOPLE and using it did not carry the stigma of bigotry FROM STRAIGHT PEOPLE that it does today."

"it did NOT carry the stigma AMONG STRAIGHT PEOPLE it does today and did not invoke the same response FROM OTHER STRAIGHT PEOPLE as say a white person calling a person of color the n-word."

"...whether or not STRAIGHT people found it shocking or biggoted."

"...it did not carry the weight it does now FOR STRAIGHT PEOPLE, that's just a fact."

Since you still don't seem to get it, I fixed your arguments for you.

I already understood that and do not disagree.

If you still don't get the point I was making there's probably nothing else I can say to change that.

[Edited 10/6/24 10:35am]

bozojones said:

bizzie said:

.

He litterally beats a woman in Purple Rain.

*Literally. You're always on everyone's asses for typos and mistakes, try living up to your own standard bud.

mclihah2 said:

andrewcherry said:

sizzle reel from a proposed reality show jill and cat were in circa 2013. in it, jill speaks of an incident involving herself and prince that jill describes as a "vicious fight" that made "chris brown and rihanna look like kid's play" :

https://vimeo.com/64335305?share=copy

wow. That’s pretty damning. It’s simply stated as a matter of fact, not sensationalist. Very much “yeah watch’a gunno do?” . That was clearly out there whilst Prince was alive and nobody made anything of it. Prince *was* around to defend himself but it was just a nothing thing!! Very much pre me-too. . I personally, now, have no doubt that it happened. It just wasn’t a thing, because society let that type of event pass all the time back then. [Edited 10/6/24 2:09am]

This was mentioned some weeks ago and it was also said that she posted vback in 2016 how she and Prince talked/reminised about there time and this incident when Vanity died and apparently he appologised for his past behaviour to her and they were on good terms or "made up"" (not that there was anything to make up for according to her) some days before he died.
Edelman probably pushed her for a sensationalized emotoianl response (seems that this tactic of him is one of the reasons some interviewees walked) given the details on that part of the doc and that her story became bigger and bigger over the decades.
This is something between them and if they talked it out and stayed on good terms with each other (which she mentioned) than why should we care? Just like anyone in here he made mistakes and learned from them, all part of life, no biggie.

scififilmnerd said:

I don't necessarily say that Jill Jones & Co. aren't saying what really happened. What I am saying is in my experience too many people--male and female--have been falsly accused of things they haven't done. If Prince being accused I would like to see some evidence. Also, he isn't being accused of Cosby or Weistein incidents. That is all. Done.

JorisE73 said: