djThunderfunk said:

RODSERLING said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

ItsOnlyMountains said:

No where in my post did I defend him. I pointed out that he was probably close to the same size and weight as Jill.

Jill is a big woman, 5'9

Tall doesn't mean strong, plus she's a woman.

jasopig said:

Jill Jones didn't technically accuse Prince of assault. Or, if she did, she also confessed to assault. If a woman (or a man for that matter) slapped me, my reaction wouldn't be the same as Prince's (presuming the story is true). BUT, it's not victim blaming to say "you reap what you sow" if a person strikes another and then deals with the response. Some may say Prince is guilty of "assault". I'd say he's guilty of defending himself.

He could have slapped her back. He didn't have to punch her repeatedly in the face.

Zakia said:

bizzie said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2...ntary.html

.

It makes sense now that Ava Duvernay pulled out from directing and Cat Glover spoke against the documentary after going in for questioning for it. The article looks like a spoiler and nothing earth shattering. Why did Jill Jones think it was okay to slap him? She comes off bitter and jealous that Prince as into her as Vanity or Susan Moonsie, seems like it was more friends with benefits and she may be embarrassed now. Why does Wendy and Lisa make themselves responsible for Prince genius and like he didn’t have a right to fire them? Why Mayte think he didn’t have a right divorce her? Seems like a few self induced people want to center themselves in Prince world. Prince should be the center of his life.

It's not up to us to 'assume', or judge (leave that to the sewer press).

-

Once you were hit by someone, doesn't matter how intense it was, you'll never ever forget that. Certainly when there was some sort of unclear, kind of complicated layer of love involved.

The underlying reason for an attraction, amorous or otherwise, between two people is never clear to outsiders.

Therefore, you can rarely, if ever, assume anything about how others' relationship relationships are structured. And, not to mention, in the early 1980s, the relationship between men and women was still far from where we are today.

Zakia said:

bozojones said:

Prince was a black man, and while he wasn't "genderfluid", he very obviously flirted with adrogynous fashion and imagery through most of his career. Not sure why those verifiable truths are so offensive to you.

It’s offensive because it’s now how Prince framed himself and labels are being placed upon him.

-

Come on, Prince created all of this himself, and it also brought him the kind of fame, mystery, money and controversy he sought for almost the rest of his life.
-
I would even venture to say that Prince WAS, even STILL IS indeed genderfluid.

And frankly, this is for the newer generation that wants to recognize it in him.

There is nothing wrong with that.

And for sure it was all his own responsibility.

If there's anyone in the music bizz that created his own unique label, it was Prince.

Prince put and created controversial labels on himself.

I can't believe that in 2024 people/fans still doubt stories about what happened in the lives of those close to him (that possibly had a serious impact on their lives and relationships, of which not one of us knows what that even means).

Especially, none of us were there when something happened, and, in this case, regarding these close 'loved' individuals, they are not going to lie about these kind of unforgettable matters.

(Not in a serious documentary like this one, imho)

-

By the way, even after 40 years or more, sometimes it is the appropriate time or oportunity to talk about it.

Plus, don't ever underestimate the context and influence of an interview and interviewer.
Jill Jones, Mayte, Wendy & Lisa, Cat and a few others are not exactly known for telling lies.

(That's what I think, and never read of heard proof of the contrary.)

-

Anyways, a documentary like this is a dream come true for us fans, right?

I should be all about the side of Prince we all want to learn to know.

Who he was, how he was off camera, how he was really known by those who lived and worked (close) with him.

Not one of them was allowed to talk about all that when he was alive, while Prince was undeniably a control freak.And those who did talk during his life, often were left in oblivion by him.

Prince was not exactly known as a forgiving person.

Later on, yes, he mellowed with age.

-

And for the music lovers, 9 hours of just talking heads, it will definitely NOT be that.
I'm more than sure that the genius side, and the uniqueness of his unsurpassable musical contribution to the world, will be covered more than enough.
That, by the way, is the main reason why this documentary is being made; to learn more about this obscure hyper-interesting person, and what he has accomplished in his peerless musical career.

paisleyparkgirl said:

I've just finished reading the NYT article. I hope/pray this documentary will be released without any of the changes the estate has pushed for.

I see some people wailing because this might show Prince had some flaws (hello, he was human), and sometimes going farther and suggesting the documentary is racist for that reason. You all need to read Questlove's view on the significance of the documentary (it's part of the article).

Here's a link to get around the paywall (it was shared earlier in the thread but I forget who posted it):


https://archive.ph/wXmy6#mce_temp_url#

scififilmnerd said:

Yeah, it was pretty naive of the documentary makers to get cooperation from The Estate and then expect them to approve anything that puts Prince in a negative light.

I see it the other way around. The Estate went out of their way to get an actual artist to make this documentary, giving them all access, and final cut. But the Estate seems to want a material that will sell Prince as a product rather than a revealing and thoughtful essay on his life.

FancyLesbian said:

scififilmnerd said:

Yeah, it was pretty naive of the documentary makers to get cooperation from The Estate and then expect them to approve anything that puts Prince in a negative light.

I see it the other way around. The Estate went out of their way to get an actual artist to make this documentary, giving them all access, and final cut. But the Estate seems to want a material that will sell Prince as a product rather than a revealing and thoughtful essay on his life.

that was the previous Estate.

The current Estate blocked access to the Vault and are pushing for 14x pages of change.

They want a fluff piece, which is understandable for the P business.

At this point Netflix should suck it up and cut the doc. to 6 hrs. and McMillions should do the re-edit and then we can finally call it day and they can move on to releasing more Vault stuff.

djThunderfunk said:

This is all ridiculous. How is this going to get him cancelled or hurt his legacy? It's not. Everything except the Jill Jones story was well known long before this interview and even if 100% true it's not enough to be concerned with. This reminds me of Lust U Always & Extraloveable being left off 1999 SDE because the lyrics might get him cancelled. As if he didn't release Sister 44 years ago, it's still in print, uncensored, and his legacy is fine.

The estate needs to just put out a statement addressing their feelings, stop fighting the doc's release, and get on with releasing more music... the one thing that will always secure his legacy. This PR battle just makes them look like they're hiding something and increases interest in the salacious aspects.

.

We're all familiar with Jill's story and while it did upset most of us when we first heard it, it didn't ruin Prince's image for us because we know this incident was very atypical of him and the only one of its kind ever reported by anyone. Whatever possessed him that day wasn't something he made a habit of doing, and he probably wasn't proud of it. We also know that by all other accounts, Prince was always depicted as being respectful towards women, perhaps insensitive and manipulative at times, but never, ever physically or sexually abusive.

.

Similarly, the homophobic incident with Wendy & Lisa was upsetting to us at the time, but we also know that except for his brief period as a fanatic Jeovah's Witness, Prince was mostly a progressive and liberal person who wrote Uptown's lyrics, spent years fooling the world into believing he was gay and usually didn't care about his collaborators' sexual orientation.

.

Finally, most of us accept the "rape" lyrics in Extraloveable and Lust U Always as sheer works of fiction, not Prince voicing personal opinions, let alone pro-rape propaganda, and we know that Prince's lyrics were, in their vast majority, feminist, empowering women and calling out any kind of abuse towards them.

.

Now that's us: people who are very familiar with Prince's life and work in all their complexity. Yet, the mere fact that this thread has partly turned into a debate about whether Prince could possibly be justified hitting a woman if he was hitting back shows how sensitive the topic is, even among (mostly) old white cis men who have heard that story before. And there were more heated debates in the past about whether to release Extraloveable or not in this very community, with fans nearly calling other fans monsters for wanting those songs to come out unedited.

.

But again, this is us. We know Prince could be a prick at times, we know he was often insensitive towards his friends, companions and collaborators, we know he could speak nonsense at times (the chemtrails episode is even more embarassing in the "post-truth" era than it was at the time), but we also know what kind of background he was coming from psychologically speaking and, most importantly, we know he wasn't a violent person, nor an alt. right fascist, nor a sexual offender. So we're not going to throw his whole life and discography into a garbage bin because of a few messed-up episodes that aren't representative of who he usually was, what he usually did and what his work stood for.

.

But so far, only hardcore Prince fans know about the Jill Jones and Wendy & Lisa episodes (and the unreleased songs' lyrics). The Netflix documentary would change this by publicizing those events to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of new people. People who know very little about Prince. People who will not have any contextual understanding of Prince and those events besides the context provided by the documentary itself (admitting they watch the whole 9 hours of it and not just some random episode, or that they don't just read online articles merely repeating the most sulfurous stories for clickbait, or heard the story from a friend who only told them about these episodes). Among these people, there will necessarily be radical online influencers who will certainly try and launch a cancel campaign against Prince and his work, because that's what those people do, and let's be honest, sometimes one has the feeling they can't really tell the difference between a Harvey Wenstein who raped dozens of women and a woman who tries to help a disabled person by picking up stuff they let fall on the floor in a supermarket (I've seen people trashed for doing that on video, because they were "mistreating" disabled people by assuming they needed help). We've all seen the stories. We're all careful about what we say on social media now, because even if you're progressive and share the "woke" ideology yourself, saying the one wrong thing that displeases the one wrong person may end-up in a major shitstorm and have lasting consequences on your reputation, life or career.

.

Now I'm not trying to say the Estate is right in what they're doing or that the documentary's makers are wrong in that they're doing. I'm 100% in favor of releasing Extraloveable and Lust U Always as such, and I'm 100% in favor of educating people about Prince's work and career even if it involves showing his flaws and dark side, which is necessary to any balanced portrait of him. But I can understand why businessmen whose only preoccupation is to "make millions" off Prince's catalogue would be happy to keep his reputation untainted and scared of a small, yet very vocal radical online community of "woke" influencers.

.

For all the criticism he had to cope with in his lifetime, Prince has mostly had an aura of holiness with the general public ever since the late 2000s, and even more since he passed. Hell, South Park never made fun of him, which says a lot about his credibility as a person and as an artist: if Parker and Stone didn't think Prince was full of shit, it probably means he was a saint It's somewhat logical the people in charge of sowing the benefits of Prince's work want to keep things that way at all costs. And most importantly, Netflix and the documentary makers were totally naive in thinking they could give the Estate a contractual veto and keep their editorial independence. Of course they couldn't. They should have known better.

Vannormal said:

-

Jill Jones, Mayte, Wendy & Lisa, Cat and a few others are not exactly known for telling lies.

(That's what I think, and never read of heard proof of the contrary.)

-

Unless you count the lies about how much they taught him musically, and the songs they claim to have written. Wendy especially likes to revise history.

[Edited 9/14/24 4:38am]

THIS should be reply #1 after the link to the article...

databank said:

.

We're all familiar with Jill's story and while it did upset most of us when we first heard it, it didn't ruin Prince's image for us because we know this incident was very atypical of him and the only one of its kind ever reported by anyone. Whatever possessed him that day wasn't something he made a habit of doing, and he probably wasn't proud of it. We also know that by all other accounts, Prince was always depicted as being respectful towards women, perhaps insensitive and manipulative at times, but never, ever physically or sexually abusive.

.

Similarly, the homophobic incident with Wendy & Lisa was upsetting to us at the time, but we also know that except for his brief period as a fanatic Jeovah's Witness, Prince was mostly a progressive and liberal person who wrote Uptown's lyrics, spent years fooling the world into believing he was gay and usually didn't care about his collaborators' sexual orientation.

.

Finally, most of us accept the "rape" lyrics in Extraloveable and Lust U Always as sheer works of fiction, not Prince voicing personal opinions, let alone pro-rape propaganda, and we know that Prince's lyrics were, in their vast majority, feminist, empowering women and calling out any kind of abuse towards them.

.

Now that's us: people who are very familiar with Prince's life and work in all their complexity. Yet, the mere fact that this thread has partly turned into a debate about whether Prince could possibly be justified hitting a woman if he was hitting back shows how sensitive the topic is, even among (mostly) old white cis men who have heard that story before. And there were more heated debates in the past about whether to release Extraloveable or not in this very community, with fans nearly calling other fans monsters for wanting those songs to come out unedited.

.

But again, this is us. We know Prince could be a prick at times, we know he was often insensitive towards his friends, companions and collaborators, we know he could speak nonsense at times (the chemtrails episode is even more embarassing in the "post-truth" era than it was at the time), but we also know what kind of background he was coming from psychologically speaking and, most importantly, we know he wasn't a violent person, nor an alt. right fascist, nor a sexual offender. So we're not going to throw his whole life and discography into a garbage bin because of a few messed-up episodes that aren't representative of who he usually was, what he usually did and what his work stood for.

.

But so far, only hardcore Prince fans know about the Jill Jones and Wendy & Lisa episodes (and the unreleased songs' lyrics). The Netflix documentary would change this by publicizing those events to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of new people. People who know very little about Prince. People who will not have any contextual understanding of Prince and those events besides the context provided by the documentary itself (admitting they watch the whole 9 hours of it and not just some random episode, or that they don't just read online articles merely repeating the most sulfurous stories for clickbait, or heard the story from a friend who only told them about these episodes). Among these people, there will necessarily be radical online influencers who will certainly try and launch a cancel campaign against Prince and his work, because that's what those people do, and let's be honest, sometimes one has the feeling they can't really tell the difference between a Harvey Wenstein who raped dozens of women and a woman who tries to help a disabled person by picking up stuff they let fall on the floor in a supermarket (I've seen people trashed for doing that on video, because they were "mistreating" disabled people by assuming they needed help). We've all seen the stories. We're all careful about what we say on social media now, because even if you're progressive and share the "woke" ideology yourself, saying the one wrong thing that displeases the one wrong person may end-up in a major shitstorm and have lasting consequences on your reputation, life or career.

.

Now I'm not trying to say the Estate is right in what they're doing or that the documentary's makers are wrong in that they're doing. I'm 100% in favor of releasing Extraloveable and Lust U Always as such, and I'm 100% in favor of educating people about Prince's work and career even if it involves showing his flaws and dark side, which is necessary to any balanced portrait of him. But I can understand why businessmen whose only preoccupation is to "make millions" off Prince's catalogue would be happy to keep his reputation untainted and scared of a small, yet very vocal radical online community of "woke" influencers.

.

For all the criticism he had to cope with in his lifetime, Prince has mostly had an aura of holiness with the general public ever since the late 2000s, and even more since he passed. Hell, South Park never made fun of him, which says a lot about his credibility as a person and as an artist: if Parker and Stone didn't think Prince was full of shit, it probably means he was a saint It's somewhat logical the people in charge of sowing the benefits of Prince's work want to keep things that way at all costs. And most importantly, Netflix and the documentary makers were totally naive in thinking they could give the Estate a contractual veto and keep their editorial independence. Of course they couldn't. They should have known better.

Oh man, Londell is retweeting me.

What is Londell's role in the estate exactly? Is he part owner now? Is he the sister's lawyer? The estate's lawyer?

[Edited 9/14/24 7:33am]

RODSERLING said:

Most fans didn't care already about the SDEs anyway.

NONSENSE!

Even overly critical fans can find plenty of jewels in every SDE that's been released so far.

databank said:

djThunderfunk said:

This is all ridiculous. How is this going to get him cancelled or hurt his legacy? It's not. Everything except the Jill Jones story was well known long before this interview and even if 100% true it's not enough to be concerned with. This reminds me of Lust U Always & Extraloveable being left off 1999 SDE because the lyrics might get him cancelled. As if he didn't release Sister 44 years ago, it's still in print, uncensored, and his legacy is fine.

The estate needs to just put out a statement addressing their feelings, stop fighting the doc's release, and get on with releasing more music... the one thing that will always secure his legacy. This PR battle just makes them look like they're hiding something and increases interest in the salacious aspects.

.

We're all familiar with Jill's story and while it did upset most of us when we first heard it, it didn't ruin Prince's image for us because we know this incident was very atypical of him and the only one of its kind ever reported by anyone. Whatever possessed him that day wasn't something he made a habit of doing, and he probably wasn't proud of it. We also know that by all other accounts, Prince was always depicted as being respectful towards women, perhaps insensitive and manipulative at times, but never, ever physically or sexually abusive.

.

Similarly, the homophobic incident with Wendy & Lisa was upsetting to us at the time, but we also know that except for his brief period as a fanatic Jeovah's Witness, Prince was mostly a progressive and liberal person who wrote Uptown's lyrics, spent years fooling the world into believing he was gay and usually didn't care about his collaborators' sexual orientation.

.

Finally, most of us accept the "rape" lyrics in Extraloveable and Lust U Always as sheer works of fiction, not Prince voicing personal opinions, let alone pro-rape propaganda, and we know that Prince's lyrics were, in their vast majority, feminist, empowering women and calling out any kind of abuse towards them.

.

Now that's us: people who are very familiar with Prince's life and work in all their complexity. Yet, the mere fact that this thread has partly turned into a debate about whether Prince could possibly be justified hitting a woman if he was hitting back shows how sensitive the topic is, even among (mostly) old white cis men who have heard that story before. And there were more heated debates in the past about whether to release Extraloveable or not in this very community, with fans nearly calling other fans monsters for wanting those songs to come out unedited.

.

But again, this is us. We know Prince could be a prick at times, we know he was often insensitive towards his friends, companions and collaborators, we know he could speak nonsense at times (the chemtrails episode is even more embarassing in the "post-truth" era than it was at the time), but we also know what kind of background he was coming from psychologically speaking and, most importantly, we know he wasn't a violent person, nor an alt. right fascist, nor a sexual offender. So we're not going to throw his whole life and discography into a garbage bin because of a few messed-up episodes that aren't representative of who he usually was, what he usually did and what his work stood for.

.

But so far, only hardcore Prince fans know about the Jill Jones and Wendy & Lisa episodes (and the unreleased songs' lyrics). The Netflix documentary would change this by publicizing those events to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of new people. People who know very little about Prince. People who will not have any contextual understanding of Prince and those events besides the context provided by the documentary itself (admitting they watch the whole 9 hours of it and not just some random episode, or that they don't just read online articles merely repeating the most sulfurous stories for clickbait, or heard the story from a friend who only told them about these episodes). Among these people, there will necessarily be radical online influencers who will certainly try and launch a cancel campaign against Prince and his work, because that's what those people do, and let's be honest, sometimes one has the feeling they can't really tell the difference between a Harvey Wenstein who raped dozens of women and a woman who tries to help a disabled person by picking up stuff they let fall on the floor in a supermarket (I've seen people trashed for doing that on video, because they were "mistreating" disabled people by assuming they needed help). We've all seen the stories. We're all careful about what we say on social media now, because even if you're progressive and share the "woke" ideology yourself, saying the one wrong thing that displeases the one wrong person may end-up in a major shitstorm and have lasting consequences on your reputation, life or career.

.

Now I'm not trying to say the Estate is right in what they're doing or that the documentary's makers are wrong in that they're doing. I'm 100% in favor of releasing Extraloveable and Lust U Always as such, and I'm 100% in favor of educating people about Prince's work and career even if it involves showing his flaws and dark side, which is necessary to any balanced portrait of him. But I can understand why businessmen whose only preoccupation is to "make millions" off Prince's catalogue would be happy to keep his reputation untainted and scared of a small, yet very vocal radical online community of "woke" influencers.

.

For all the criticism he had to cope with in his lifetime, Prince has mostly had an aura of holiness with the general public ever since the late 2000s, and even more since he passed. Hell, South Park never made fun of him, which says a lot about his credibility as a person and as an artist: if Parker and Stone didn't think Prince was full of shit, it probably means he was a saint It's somewhat logical the people in charge of sowing the benefits of Prince's work want to keep things that way at all costs. And most importantly, Netflix and the documentary makers were totally naive in thinking they could give the Estate a contractual veto and keep their editorial independence. Of course they couldn't. They should have known better.

I'm not saying any of this is wrong, but, it's out there now right? These articles are being read far and wide, not just by us. The cat's out of the bag already. Let's not worry about the overly sensitive, their days of cancelling people for offending them is soooo over.

Strawberrylova123 said:

More meltdowns https://x.com/londellmcmi...us26qn0pRQ

Yeah sounds like his ego is very involved. He's worried about the filmmaker's level of fame?

Strawberrylova123 said:

FancyLesbian said:

MIRvmn1 said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

More meltdowns https://x.com/londellmcmi...us26qn0pRQ At least he confirmed that the Netflix contract is holding up vault releases https://x.com/londellmcmi...us26qn0pRQ

Isn't it just concert footage they can't release? I think hes lying. They were able to release the alternate version of Silver Tongue from the vault earlier this year without any problems.

Exactly. it's visual footage so I guess that could be concert footage, or stuff like The Second Coming, or unseen videos. I guess that's why we got the purple splatter release of Purple Rain. I don't believe for one second that once the Netflix fight is resolved they will release anything of substance. They would rather just talk about how hard it is to protect Prince's legacy instead of doing any work to promote it.

They could have still released a bunch of previously OOP stuff - like Madhouse, The Family, Vanity 6; or even press vinyls for albums like NEWS, The Slaughthouse, C-NOTE, etc. but they want to sell purple rain boots and bedsheets. As Llondell says "GTHOH!"

Strawberrylova123 said:

At least he confirmed that the Netflix contract is holding up vault releases

That's the real scandal here.

This is a perfect setup for the Docu.

I hate to quote that old Nike campaign, but...

PRNinPrint said:

Londell strikes me as a very Trumpian kind of guy - thinks he's far smarter than he actually is, tries to bully people to get his way and throws a tantrum when it doesn't work, and so on. He should leave Prince's legacy the fuck alone and pivot into some kind of political grifting, that seems like it'd be more up his alley and with a quicker payout