"The Prince We Never Knew" in the New York Times: long article on the Ezra Edelman documentary series for Netflix

Reply #1 posted 09/08/24 4:59am

FrankieCoco1

Thanks for posting. Reading the article, it seems the documentary very much focuses on personality and lifestyle, rather than what I would prefer, such as music making. I suppose my preferences may have limited appeal to Netflix audiences plus there seems to be limited available film footage of Prince crafting a song and working things out in the studio (at least in preserved decent quality).

Even if part of the doc shows some of the unpleasantness of Prince, I doubt it’ll lead to him being cancelled. It’s hardly like there’s much to cancel, with so low streaming figures and no music releases this year. The estate and the legal goings on are doing a fine enough job at lowering his profile as it is.
[Edited 9/8/24 5:01am]

There may or may not be something coming!

Reply #2 posted 09/08/24 6:24am

muleFunk

avatar

The whole problem here is there was an agenda to do this to Prince from the beginning.
I wanted to see the evolution in the music.

Netflix and Edelman used access to the vault to smear the man's legacy. No other artist that died had undergone the same treatment here.
Michael Jackson had way many skeletons and secrets and they have not been made into a nine part documentary.

All of this reminds me of Eddie Griffin's interview where he said they are not going to let a Black man have a clean legacy.

Reply #3 posted 09/08/24 6:54am

bozojones

muleFunk said:
The whole problem here is there was an agenda to do this to Prince from the beginning. I wanted to see the evolution in the music. Netflix and Edelman used access to the vault to smear the man's legacy. No other artist that died had undergone the same treatment here. Michael Jackson had way many skeletons and secrets and they have not been made into a nine part documentary. All of this reminds me of Eddie Griffin's interview where he said they are not going to let a Black man have a clean legacy.

Did you forget about the four hour Leaving Neverland documentary that came out five years ago?

Reply #4 posted 09/08/24 7:14am

I agree with you guys. The question is what the general public would want, not just us…
This is the response I posted on HQ FB:

Wow. Thanks for posting this. I have mixed feelings, which it seems is the effect of seeing the film itself.

I think that many of us hoped for a documentary which would show the rest of the world who don’t get it, Prince’s genius. I think that that IS a documentary that should be made. This isn’t it.

Many of us have often wondered about the human Prince. The mystery made us assume that there was something we were missing, something hidden. It turns out there wasn’t - based on this, we knew it all.
And maybe that is something worthy. Certainly it’s what his real fan base has always been about - if you were a member of the org in the old days you would remember many many discussions of the warts parts of “warts and all” and much of what is discussed here was taken then as basic knowledge (especially at the time when he was attacking fan-sites).
So if we really want to expose more people to the genius we admire - this is really it.

I do think, though, that there is truth in the claim that this is different to the way white artists are treated, but then all the examples given (other than Bowie) are alive. Elvis Presley’s failings have definitely been widely dealt with. I’m sure a documentary of Jonny Cash would show a tortured and disturbing soul.

We knew he could be a d*** and was, a lot of the time. A true doco shouldn’t be hagiographic. I just wonder if it gives adequate time and attention to his phenomenal achievements, output and legacy, and to all the good he did (food drives, charity, advocacy). Because if so, it’s not given prominence in this article (although mentioned partly in passing). And if not, then the doco would be presenting a warped, unjust and unrepresentative image

Reply #5 posted 09/08/24 7:16am

That said, it does sound like the doco Bart would make… razz

(I miss the boxed emoji from the old org. Does it still work?)

Reply #6 posted 09/08/24 7:19am

bizzie

muleFunk said:

The whole problem here is there was an agenda to do this to Prince from the beginning.

This is absolute horseshit.

No other artist that died had undergone the same treatment here.

After his death there was tons of talk about Bowie deflowering a 14 year old, and that was a well-known story from long before his death. Just to give one example.

. All of this reminds me of Eddie Griffin's interview where he said they are not going to let a Black man have a clean legacy.

Read the article. Edelman shows Prince as a human. Prince had plenty of flaws, and pretending that wasn't the case is a lie.

For decades Prince fans have ignored the elephant in the room: that Prince was flawed. He had a mean streak, he loved to prank people but couldn't stand being the butt of one, he fired people for the flimsiest of reasons, he repeatedly screwed people over,... And whenever someone close to Prince told "negative" stories they were dismissed as a "disgruntled employee", ignoring that Prince seemed to have a lot of those and that perhaps the problem wasn't the employees.

Reply #7 posted 09/08/24 7:38am

Yeah, like I said, the org used to be full of criticism. Especially before NPGMC closed and all the fams moved here, and even more after a certain other artist died and a lot of his fans moved over here too.
In fact it felt that there was TOO much trashing going on here for a while.
[Edited 9/8/24 7:39am]

Reply #8 posted 09/08/24 9:02am

jorge

After reading the article, this is the documentary I want to watch. I hope it leaks...

Reply #9 posted 09/08/24 9:37am

muleFunk

avatar

bizzie said:

muleFunk said:

The whole problem here is there was an agenda to do this to Prince from the beginning.

This is absolute horseshit.

No other artist that died had undergone the same treatment here.

After his death there was tons of talk about Bowie deflowering a 14 year old, and that was a well-known story from long before his death. Just to give one example.

. All of this reminds me of Eddie Griffin's interview where he said they are not going to let a Black man have a clean legacy.

Read the article. Edelman shows Prince as a human. Prince had plenty of flaws, and pretending that wasn't the case is a lie.

Bullshit to you as well.

This falls into to camps.
One is Prince needs to be exposed.
The other is give us the music side to the story.

And it's absolutely the truth that Netflix ordered a hit piece based on Cat Glover's post from a few years back.

Reply #10 posted 09/08/24 9:41am

muleFunk

avatar

wasitgood4u2 said:

Now Prince was a ROCKSTAR that lived a rockstar life.
All of them were dicks and assholes and some were extremely giving. Org folk knew this because a lot was posted here.
I know he wasn't a Saint and never thought he was. I just want the music to be put in a place where it should be because they barely did it when he was alive.

Reply #11 posted 09/08/24 9:42am

Strawberrylova
123

Prince will be fine. This is not worse than leaving neverland documentary from 3 years ago.

Reply #12 posted 09/08/24 10:04am

RODSERLING

I can't read the article. Needs a subscription to NYT

Reply #13 posted 09/08/24 10:08am

RODSERLING

Strawberrylova123 said:

Prince will be fine. This is not worse than leaving neverland documentary from 3 years ago.

Sure.
But after Leaving Neverland, MJ streaming numbers exploded
It was like after Living With MJ. One could think this was to destroyed his image, but it made him popular again, and he sold more discs during that year than in the year following the release of Invincible.

Reply #14 posted 09/08/24 10:20am

luv2tha99s

avatar

Why is there a link to a paywall and not an article?

Reply #15 posted 09/08/24 10:37am

christobole

One gets the impression, that both the NY Times & the film's director (and perhaps certain Prince associates, as well as some former Netflix brass) are/were trying to exploit Prince, by tying him to their ideologies - framing Prince as some kind of pioneer of "gender fluidity", on top of the label "black man". While it should be obvious, that Prince himself would've refused such labels & identities, branding Prince's persona that way, although seemingly appropriate these days, would not be profitable in the long-term. Think what you will of McMillan - he is likely too shrewd a businessman, to allow his asset to be tarnished by the ideology du jour - thank god for that. Btw, contrary to this NY Times writer's claims, Netflix documentaries of the past, rather than being deep, have merely been too long & too repetitive - 6 hours is more than enough for a public prone to watching garbage.

Reply #16 posted 09/08/24 10:53am

bozojones

christobole said:

One gets the impression, that both the NY Times & the film's director (and perhaps certain Prince associates, as well as some former Netflix brass) are/were trying to exploit Prince, by tying him to their ideologies - framing Prince as some kind of pioneer of "gender fluidity", on top of the label "black man". While it should be obvious, that Prince himself would've refused such labels & identities, branding Prince's persona that way, although seemingly appropriate these days, would not be profitable in the long-term. Think what you will of McMillan - he is likely too shrewd a businessman, to allow his asset to be tarnished by the ideology du jour - thank god for that. Btw, contrary to this NY Times writer's claims, Netflix documentaries of the past, rather than being deep, have merely been too long & too repetitive - 6 hours is more than enough for a public prone to watching garbage.

Prince was a black man, and while he wasn't "genderfluid", he very obviously flirted with adrogynous fashion and imagery through most of his career. Not sure why those verifiable truths are so offensive to you.

Reply #17 posted 09/08/24 11:06am

PJMcGee

avatar

RODSERLING said:

I can't read the article. Needs a subscription to NYT

I just gave them my email (no subsequent verification) & I could read it. But read it all at once. Don't try to go back to it. Not sure if I can.

Reply #18 posted 09/08/24 11:20am

Strawberrylova
123

RODSERLING said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

Prince will be fine. This is not worse than leaving neverland documentary from 3 years ago.

Exactly my point, cancel culture doesn’t exist. MJ was accused of the worst thing ever imaginable but his music still lives on. Prince will be fine.

Reply #19 posted 09/08/24 11:22am

Strawberrylova
123

bozojones said:

christobole said:

One gets the impression, that both the NY Times & the film's director (and perhaps certain Prince associates, as well as some former Netflix brass) are/were trying to exploit Prince, by tying him to their ideologies - framing Prince as some kind of pioneer of "gender fluidity", on top of the label "black man". While it should be obvious, that Prince himself would've refused such labels & identities, branding Prince's persona that way, although seemingly appropriate these days, would not be profitable in the long-term. Think what you will of McMillan - he is likely too shrewd a businessman, to allow his asset to be tarnished by the ideology du jour - thank god for that. Btw, contrary to this NY Times writer's claims, Netflix documentaries of the past, rather than being deep, have merely been too long & too repetitive - 6 hours is more than enough for a public prone to watching garbage.

Exactly, this was the least offensive thing in this article. People are ignoring that Jill Jones accused P of assault.

Reply #20 posted 09/08/24 11:23am

skywalker

avatar

Hmm. Prince's professional career/music is compelling enough that we don't need an expose look behind the persona. Believe it, or not....people don't actually want the deconstruction of the myth.

I'm not saying we shouldn't get some glimpses into Prince's personal life, upbringing, and relationships....but it needs to serve the art. It shouldn't be dirt for dirt sake. It sounds like this documentary maybe doesn't do that?

In any event, the Prince estate was NEVER going to approve this. I don't think the film maker understood the assignment. As was stated, look at similar documentary afforded to/created about David Bowie. It struck the perfect balance. Do that shit for Prince. Tell us about the creative process/music/art.

"New Power slide...."

Reply #21 posted 09/08/24 11:27am

RenaRF

avatar

bizzie said:

muleFunk said:

.

After his death there was tons of talk about Bowie deflowering a 14 year old, and that was a well-known story from long before his death. Just to give one example.

.

. All of this reminds me of Eddie Griffin's interview where he said they are not going to let a Black man have a clean legacy.

.

Read the article. Edelman shows Prince as a human. Prince had plenty of flaws, and pretending that wasn't the case is a lie.

.

For decades Prince fans have ignored the elephant in the room: that Prince was flawed. He had a mean streak, he loved to prank people but couldn't stand being the butt of one, he fired people for the flimsiest of reasons, he repeatedly screwed people over,... And whenever someone close to Prince told "negative" stories they were dismissed as a "disgruntled employee", ignoring that Prince seemed to have a lot of those and that perhaps the problem wasn't the employees.

THANK YOU. How can you appreciate genius in a person if you can't profile who that person is? Good and bad, cringeworthy and exultory, it's all part of understanding the genius. Genius doesn't live separate from the rest of the person - it's all interwoven and one feeds the other in a continuous cycle.

After reading the whole article, I really really hope they release it. I want to appreciate everything that shaped his genius. I don't get how others don't see that it's all related, and you can't tell one story without weaving in the other.

"Everything that's in your heart, come what may
Even though his might get broken" RIP Prince

Reply #22 posted 09/08/24 12:27pm

RenaRF said:

bizzie said:

muleFunk said:

.

After his death there was tons of talk about Bowie deflowering a 14 year old, and that was a well-known story from long before his death. Just to give one example.

.

. All of this reminds me of Eddie Griffin's interview where he said they are not going to let a Black man have a clean legacy.

.

Read the article. Edelman shows Prince as a human. Prince had plenty of flaws, and pretending that wasn't the case is a lie.

.

For decades Prince fans have ignored the elephant in the room: that Prince was flawed. He had a mean streak, he loved to prank people but couldn't stand being the butt of one, he fired people for the flimsiest of reasons, he repeatedly screwed people over,... And whenever someone close to Prince told "negative" stories they were dismissed as a "disgruntled employee", ignoring that Prince seemed to have a lot of those and that perhaps the problem wasn't the employees.

It’s funny because back in the 80s we were SOLD basically this story. I remember reading in magazines how he was thrown out of home and neglected/abused by his parents, how he moved in to Andre’s basement where things were pretty wild, mainly sexually. As for his treatment of women, well, he slapped Apples, “pranked” her and gaslighted JJ and the Girlbros and that was all in a blockbuster movie (I know it’s fictional, but image-wise that was his persona)…

Reply #23 posted 09/08/24 12:57pm

pdiddy2011

Strawberrylova123 said:
bozojones said:

Prince was a black man, and while he wasn't "genderfluid", he very obviously flirted with adrogynous fashion and imagery through most of his career. Not sure why those verifiable truths are so offensive to you.

Exactly, this was the least offensive thing in this article. People are ignoring that Jill Jones accused P of assault.

Jill Jones accusing P of assault seems so odd to me given how respectfully she seems speaks of him (for a recent example see Apollonia's podcast).

Reply #24 posted 09/08/24 1:03pm

pdiddy2011 said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

bozojones said:

Prince was a black man, and while he wasn't "genderfluid", he very obviously flirted with adrogynous fashion and imagery through most of his career. Not sure why those verifiable truths are so offensive to you.

Exactly, this was the least offensive thing in this article. People are ignoring that Jill Jones accused P of assault.

Jill Jones accusing P of assault seems so odd to me given how respectfully she seems speaks of him (for a recent example see Apollonia's podcast).

Wonder if they play the lyrics from Days of Wild after her story (then again, it seems this guy researched the life but not the art so may not know the song exists…)

Reply #25 posted 09/08/24 1:08pm

ZafDilek

pdiddy2011 said:

Strawberrylova123 said:

bozojones said:

Prince was a black man, and while he wasn't "genderfluid", he very obviously flirted with adrogynous fashion and imagery through most of his career. Not sure why those verifiable truths are so offensive to you.

Exactly, this was the least offensive thing in this article. People are ignoring that Jill Jones accused P of assault.

Jill Jones accusing P of assault seems so odd to me given how respectfully she seems speaks of him (for a recent example see Apollonia's podcast).

Agreed, and that did shock me.

Other than this, one thing that really jumped out at me is that Wendy & Lisa were mentioned as the primary source of info for the doc. Thus, we get the familiar spin on things: it's really they who unlocked his genius (noticed how the author even wrote he released 1999 after he started collaborating wit them? Ehh), his relationship with them was the most meaningful he ever had, he never really enjoyed any work he did with others after disbanding the Revolution, all girlfriends except Susannah didn't really mean anything to him, etc. Yawn.

While I'd of course binge these episodes if they'd come out, I don't really get why this was made in this manner. It's pretty crazy for the Estate to give carte blanche access to the vault, and then for this to turn into a pretty negative psychoanalytical docuseries. An artistic exploration would have been much more interesting to me, and judging by how they describe the vault, that's what Prince would have wanted too. If you're gonna mine his personal archives for a project, it would seem like the decent thing to do to me to take that into account...
[Edited 9/8/24 13:08pm]
[Edited 9/8/24 13:14pm]