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Reply #30 posted 04/13/22 11:16am

RJOrion

Foolishness...

"Kamasutra" or even "N.E.W.S." is the most "unPrince" sounding CD
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Reply #31 posted 04/15/22 7:02am

Vannormal

No, I agree with this.

Purple Rain is a very different album.

Compare it with whatever other Prince album.

And I follow AlexNevermind28 in his way how the songs are constructed.

But you have to be willing to make an effort and hear it though his way.

Though you don't have to agree with all.

I find it spot on.

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #32 posted 04/16/22 3:06pm

IanRG

Vannormal said:

No, I agree with this.

Purple Rain is a very different album.

Compare it with whatever other Prince album.

And I follow AlexNevermind28 in his way how the songs are constructed.

But you have to be willing to make an effort and hear it though his way.

Though you don't have to agree with all.

I find it spot on.

.

Prince's albums are all different. He is not known for just seeking to recreate his last album, they are either a significant progression from the previous or a major change from the previous or if you go song by song, both. Therefore anyone can seek to overemphasise the differences between any one album and all the others. However, "different" does not equal unPrince sounding.

.

Even if you try to see it AlexNevermind's way, how on earth is NEWS more like every other Prince album than Purple Rain?

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Reply #33 posted 04/16/22 7:41pm

ChocolateBox31
21

avatar

I AGREE when I first heard some of the songs from what became the album Purple Rain(the song I hated it, it sounded like a country western song), almost a year b 4 it was released I was SO disappointed. It DID NOT sound like a Prince album and I hated him adding The Revolution name onto his.

I did like "When Doves Cry" that he later recorded just barely a few months b4 the promotion began.

But the soundtrack album didn't do it for me not until I saw the movie. The extended "Let's Go Crazy" in the movie was hypnotic that was later released as the 12 inch BLEW ME AWAY!

But I like EVERY song now.Although if I never heard the song Purple Rain again i would be fine with that. Anyone that now says that's there favorite Prince(r.i.p.) song is not a real fan.

[Edited 4/17/22 7:49am]

"That mountain top situation is not really what it's all cracked up 2 B when eye was doing the Purple Rain tour eye had a lot of people who eye knew eye'll never c again @ the concerts.just screamin n places they thought they was suppose 2 scream."prince
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Reply #34 posted 04/17/22 7:19am

LoveGalore

I wish someone would name one "country and western" song that Purple Rain sounds like.
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Reply #35 posted 04/17/22 2:19pm

IanRG

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I AGREE when I first heard some of the songs from what became the album Purple Rain(the song I hated it, it sounded like a country western song), almost a year b 4 it was released I was SO disappointed. It DID NOT sound like a Prince album and I hated him adding The Revolution name onto his.

I did like "When Doves Cry" that he later recorded just barely a few months b4 the promotion began.

But the soundtrack album didn't do it for me not until I saw the movie. The extended "Let's Go Crazy" in the movie was hypnotic that was later released as the 12 inch BLEW ME AWAY!

But I like EVERY song now.Although if I never heard the song Purple Rain again i would be fine with that. Anyone that now says that's there favorite Prince(r.i.p.) song is not a real fan.

[Edited 4/17/22 7:49am]

.

This only provies Purple Rain is a very Prince sounding album - It joins all the times when a new Prince album was launched where people on the Org have said they hated it.

.

However at the time, there were actually far, far, far more people that complained that ATWIAD was not a Prince sounding album at its launch than people who ever thought Purple Rain did not sound like Prince at its.

.

Which still leaves the question - How on earth does N.E.W.S. sound more like every other Prince album than Purple Rain?

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Reply #36 posted 04/19/22 7:14am

Krid

I see where the OP is going, and tend to agree.

There is the phase from PR up to GB where the sound deviated quite significantly from the "Minneapolis Sound" (I know this is not defined either... lol)

PR is surely an outlier. But also ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy and GB. No album at this time sounded like the ones before. With Batman, we get back towards the middle (well, you could argue it has some industrial funk soundwise, something Prince did not do before...). And the rest afterwards, well, I think Prince had made his point and the albums' sounds repeated what was heard before (soundwise).

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Reply #37 posted 04/19/22 8:09am

LoveGalore

Krid said:

I see where the OP is going, and tend to agree.



There is the phase from PR up to GB where the sound deviated quite significantly from the "Minneapolis Sound" (I know this is not defined either... lol)



PR is surely an outlier. But also ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy and GB. No album at this time sounded like the ones before. With Batman, we get back towards the middle (well, you could argue it has some industrial funk soundwise, something Prince did not do before...). And the rest afterwards, well, I think Prince had made his point and the albums' sounds repeated what was heard before (soundwise).



Purple Rain isn't MPLS sound? Come on. It's the album that put the sound on the roadmap, it's the album that made labels rush out to copy the Minneapolis sound every year thereafter. It did not deviate significantly from what came before, it's a perfect continuation of the sound you hear on 1999 and Controversy.
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Reply #38 posted 04/19/22 8:22am

ChocolateBox31
21

avatar

"That mountain top situation is not really what it's all cracked up 2 B when eye was doing the Purple Rain tour eye had a lot of people who eye knew eye 'll never c again @ the concerts.just screamin n places they thought they was suppose 2 scream." prince

FACT: Prince(r.ip.) achieving superstardom with his MEGA opus Purple Rain wasn't what it was cracked up 2 b to him. I believe that's why he went in a COMPLETELY different direction with ATWIAD to cater more to his loyal following instead of the fairweather Purple Ran fans. Ironically he was right! Because the same three million that bought the previous 1999 album bought ATWIAD album.

[Edited 4/19/22 8:33am]

"That mountain top situation is not really what it's all cracked up 2 B when eye was doing the Purple Rain tour eye had a lot of people who eye knew eye'll never c again @ the concerts.just screamin n places they thought they was suppose 2 scream."prince
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Reply #39 posted 04/19/22 8:25am

Genesia

avatar

AlexNevermind28 said:

Okay I have been a fan since I was 15, and I knew this would be taken out of context…. Yes let's go crazy and purple rain are classic Prince songs due to the nostalgia and I love them both. But when you think of classic Prince songs, how many have the guitar as the lead? So many people on this site think that Purple Rain is the be all end all, I saw the super bowl, I just hate that cd is the one that every one thinks that defines Prince when no other cd he has put out sounds like this at all. Prince knew he had to do something to put himself out there and then did what he wanted to do for the rest of his career.


Are you new? This statement suggests you are.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #40 posted 04/19/22 2:21pm

IanRG

Krid said:

I see where the OP is going, and tend to agree.

There is the phase from PR up to GB where the sound deviated quite significantly from the "Minneapolis Sound" (I know this is not defined either... lol)

PR is surely an outlier. But also ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy and GB. No album at this time sounded like the ones before. With Batman, we get back towards the middle (well, you could argue it has some industrial funk soundwise, something Prince did not do before...). And the rest afterwards, well, I think Prince had made his point and the albums' sounds repeated what was heard before (soundwise).

.

Your arguement makes no sense. It relies on having people believe that ALL albums after GB are just repeats of the pre-PR sound. So to you D&P, TRC, N.E.W.S and HnR-P1 are all repeats (soundwise) of FY to 1999?

.

It is also contadictory because you admit that PR is not the most unPrince album by stating that each and every album after PR up to GB all sounded unlike the ones before - except Batman. And then argue that even Batman also introduced a new sound.

.

PR is a simple progression from 1999 (soundwise). It did not seek to be an outlier because it created as a soundtrack album and commerical follow on after the mainstream breakthrough of 1999. It succeeded because it did not try to rock the boat. ATWIAD did - It was meant to be an outlier by being a step change (soundwise) because it was a rejection of just releasing a pop album to follow on from 1999 and PR.

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Reply #41 posted 04/20/22 1:26am

Vannormal

IanRG said:

Vannormal said:

No, I agree with this.

Purple Rain is a very different album.

Compare it with whatever other Prince album.

And I follow AlexNevermind28 in his way how the songs are constructed.

But you have to be willing to make an effort and hear it though his way.

Though you don't have to agree with all.

I find it spot on.

.

Prince's albums are all different. He is not known for just seeking to recreate his last album, they are either a significant progression from the previous or a major change from the previous or if you go song by song, both. Therefore anyone can seek to overemphasise the differences between any one album and all the others. However, "different" does not equal unPrince sounding.

.

Even if you try to see it AlexNevermind's way, how on earth is NEWS more like every other Prince album than Purple Rain?

I understand you but not all Prince's albums are different in ''either a significant progression or a major change''. (various albums from 2004-2009 for example)

If you want to go ''song by song''...

Well, to me most songs he wrote in his post-eighties career somehow had the same vibe and construction meaning 'verse, verse, chorus, verse', sometimes a solo or not, whatever.

There just was little inventiveness and arrangements.

And I understand that after written hundreds of (great and inventive) songs, the next few hundred songs aren't necessarily going to be better.

An artist rarely has the blessed inspiration of being super innovative or persistently creative thoughout his carreer.

Prince used to be a true master in creating twists, changes, surprising bridges within songs.

This is my opinion. Proof me wrong, and I'm willing to agree or not.

N.E.W.S. is an instrumental album - it is not that what AlexNevermind28 meant.

Again, you have to be willing to hear and see it through someone else's view, eyes, ears.

It can only progress your opinions when open to other views.

And I'm sure that's what you do.

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #42 posted 04/20/22 1:46am

Vannormal

Krid said:

I see where the OP is going, and tend to agree.

There is the phase from PR up to GB where the sound deviated quite significantly from the "Minneapolis Sound" (I know this is not defined either... lol)

PR is surely an outlier. But also ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT, Lovesexy and GB. No album at this time sounded like the ones before. With Batman, we get back towards the middle (well, you could argue it has some industrial funk soundwise, something Prince did not do before...). And the rest afterwards, well, I think Prince had made his point and the albums' sounds repeated what was heard before (soundwise).

You know what it is with the Batman album ?

It is a collection of songs created for, or to fit withing the atmosphere of the movie.

The colelction of songs, and the sound of that album was a compromise to what Tim Burton wanted.

And for that reason it is just a perfect soundtrack, and not a regular Prince album to me.

(Just think that he was not asked to write that music... we could've had 'maybe' a completley different Graffiti Bridge album... we'll never know.)

Anyways.

Yes, Batman was released as a Prince album, but I can only think of the movie Batman when I hear these songs.

I can not liten to this album as a stand alone Prince album like all others.

Which I have not when I listen to Purple Rain or Parade for instance.

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #43 posted 04/20/22 2:38pm

IanRG

Vannormal said:

IanRG said:

.

Prince's albums are all different. He is not known for just seeking to recreate his last album, they are either a significant progression from the previous or a major change from the previous or if you go song by song, both. Therefore anyone can seek to overemphasise the differences between any one album and all the others. However, "different" does not equal unPrince sounding.

.

Even if you try to see it AlexNevermind's way, how on earth is NEWS more like every other Prince album than Purple Rain?

I understand you but not all Prince's albums are different in ''either a significant progression or a major change''. (various albums from 2004-2009 for example)

If you want to go ''song by song''...

Well, to me most songs he wrote in his post-eighties career somehow had the same vibe and construction meaning 'verse, verse, chorus, verse', sometimes a solo or not, whatever.

There just was little inventiveness and arrangements.

And I understand that after written hundreds of (great and inventive) songs, the next few hundred songs aren't necessarily going to be better.

An artist rarely has the blessed inspiration of being super innovative or persistently creative thoughout his carreer.

Prince used to be a true master in creating twists, changes, surprising bridges within songs.

This is my opinion. Proof me wrong, and I'm willing to agree or not.

N.E.W.S. is an instrumental album - it is not that what AlexNevermind28 meant.

Again, you have to be willing to hear and see it through someone else's view, eyes, ears.

It can only progress your opinions when open to other views.

And I'm sure that's what you do.

.

2004 to 2009 has Musicology, 3121, Planet Earth, Indigo Nights, Lotusflow3r, MPLSound and Elixer (ignoring the repackaged NPGMC tracks) - all quite different in sound and vibe even if not with a major change - even the last three released together as a set.

.

Musicology was a major step change from TRC with much more of an R&B sound rather the Jazz fusion sound.

.

3121 shifted from Musicology to be more rocky/funky with electonica elements.

.

Planet Earth was a progression ftrom 3121 with standout differences in Guitar. As the least innovative of this era, it is also the worst (in my opinion - prove me wrong)

.

Indigo Nights was live so, as an album, introduced Prince on stage in the 21st century as very different from in 1980s.

.

The internal differences between Lotusflow3r and MLPSound are more suble but Elixer is (naturally) quite different - However in no way are these three individually or as a set just repeats of Planet Earth in their sound.

.

If you reduce this to are they just verse, verse, chorus verse, and Prince's changes are just in innovative twists and bridges, then there is no more innovation or presistently creative throughput in any era of Prince or any other artist ever.

.

The point I was making is Purple Rain is just a progression from 1999 - a commercial follow up / soundtrack album that is far less different from 1999 than 1999 is from Controversy or Purple Rain is from ATWIAD.

.

N.E.W.S is a Prince album, as is ATWIAD, TRC, Kamasutra, HnR-P1. These others were all mentioned as being far more different than PR but those agreeing AlexNevermind just kept on ignoring these. I simplified the list to the most unPrince sounding of these being N.E.W.S. but all these are far more different from previous albums than PR ever was. If you are prepared to listen through my views, eyes and ears, then you would see that AlexNevermind's theory does not hold up to analysis. There simply is not so much change in PR from the preceeding albums that it no longer sounds like Prince.

[Edited 4/20/22 15:02pm]

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Reply #44 posted 04/23/22 12:13am

Vannormal

IanRG said:

Vannormal said:

"(...) to me most songs he wrote in his post-eighties career somehow had the same vibe and construction meaning 'verse, verse, chorus, verse', sometimes a solo or not, whatever. There just was little inventiveness and arrangements.

And I understand that after written hundreds of (great and inventive) songs, the next few hundred songs aren't necessarily going to be better.

An artist rarely has the blessed inspiration of being super innovative or persistently creative thoughout his carreer.

Prince used to be a true master in creating twists, changes, surprising bridges within songs (...)"

What I wrote is about his song writing 'construction/craft' in general after 1989.

So to me, most of his post 80s albums suffer from that n general.

His albums were less enjoyable to me, due to lack of inventiveness.

I explained all that already.

Same as Prince became 'perfect' in whatever he did skills-wise.

His playing became too tight for me. But you have to folow me on that one, it's tricky i know. wink

The same tightness he demanded from his fellow musicians.

And the fact he put himself above all of it. Understandable, it was his trip.

It is clear he could not stand mistakes or flaws of no one.

I believe that striving for perfection is killing the oportunity of the excitement of inperfection and new posibilites.

But that's a whole other subject of discussion.

Yes I'm capable of listening through other's opinions and ears.smile

I still listen to those 90s and beyond albums. But they often lack atmosphere and uniqueness compared to his earlier work (which I never get tired of).

Sure i might change my mind in the future.

We have to change with the changing world they say.

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #45 posted 04/23/22 6:06am

IanRG

Vannormal said:

IanRG said:

What I wrote is about his song writing 'construction/craft' in general after 1989.

So to me, most of his post 80s albums suffer from that n general.

His albums were less enjoyable to me, due to lack of inventiveness.

I explained all that already.

Same as Prince became 'perfect' in whatever he did skills-wise.

His playing became too tight for me. But you have to folow me on that one, it's tricky i know. wink

The same tightness he demanded from his fellow musicians.

And the fact he put himself above all of it. Understandable, it was his trip.

It is clear he could not stand mistakes or flaws of no one.

I believe that striving for perfection is killing the oportunity of the excitement of inperfection and new posibilites.

But that's a whole other subject of discussion.

Yes I'm capable of listening through other's opinions and ears.smile

I still listen to those 90s and beyond albums. But they often lack atmosphere and uniqueness compared to his earlier work (which I never get tired of).

Sure i might change my mind in the future.

We have to change with the changing world they say.

.

All which is your justification for not liking Prince as much after 1989, which is not the topic (and not my opinion).

.

None of it supports why you agree with the opinion that one of the most recognisably Prince albums of all time is somehow the most unPrince sounding album.

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Reply #46 posted 04/24/22 1:45pm

Vannormal

Interesting would be if we could leave the distorded guitar off of Let's Go Crazy.

You'll probably get a song in the spirit of his older rockabilly-ish attempts. Then the sharp synths will dominate.

Also the recording of his voice, the way it was shaped in the studio with overdubs is also something he didn't use all that often on other albums (if i'm not mistaken).

Certainly on Let's Go Crazy there's heavy overdubs of his voice.

Same for Computer Blue, Baby I'm A Star, I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm A Star & Purple Rain.

-

When Doves Cry indeed is a heavy drum machine track, but he did that before.

It is a complete different song, but for some reason ''It'' often reminds me of When Doves Cry (not musically though, just the way it builds up on synths and layers of vocals, and ends with some stunning guitar).

I believe the Shakespearian STYLE lyrics of WDC have to be mentioned as well.

Chrystal clear and very pictural, and especially in the chorus part make it so easy and original to digest for everyone. Lyric-wise, (to me), he did the same with Kiss.

-

But to me the 1999 album refined him the most (for meà.

Purple Rain was something he just had to do nd had to happen.

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #47 posted 04/24/22 3:18pm

IanRG

Vannormal said:

Interesting would be if we could leave the distorded guitar off of Let's Go Crazy.

You'll probably get a song in the spirit of his older rockabilly-ish attempts. Then the sharp synths will dominate.

Also the recording of his voice, the way it was shaped in the studio with overdubs is also something he didn't use all that often on other albums (if i'm not mistaken).

Certainly on Let's Go Crazy there's heavy overdubs of his voice.

Same for Computer Blue, Baby I'm A Star, I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm A Star & Purple Rain.

-

When Doves Cry indeed is a heavy drum machine track, but he did that before.

It is a complete different song, but for some reason ''It'' often reminds me of When Doves Cry (not musically though, just the way it builds up on synths and layers of vocals, and ends with some stunning guitar).

I believe the Shakespearian STYLE lyrics of WDC have to be mentioned as well.

Chrystal clear and very pictural, and especially in the chorus part make it so easy and original to digest for everyone. Lyric-wise, (to me), he did the same with Kiss.

-

But to me the 1999 album refined him the most (for meà.

Purple Rain was something he just had to do nd had to happen.

.

What has this go to do with what I said? We have already agreed that Prince did not just repeat previous albums, that they are either progressions or step changes from the previous albums. You just thought that there was less step change from 1990 on.

.

If you take out how he progressed with Let's Go Crazy - it could sound like a previous style. This could be said for so many songs by so many artists and it does not mean this progression does not sound like Prince because the progression is easily removed in people's minds to see the previous style. The reason Prince is so good is he does make these progressions (and so much more) in his sound. This is why there can be musical themes in so many different songs that can be found in completely songs made previously - even decades previously. These themes succeed because they are progressed, not just repeated - the casual listeners out there may be unaware of prior use of that theme, but they recognise that the new song is Prince sounding.

.

Prince experimented with different ways to use and record his voice all the time. That he did not use overdubbing often is an admission that he did use overdubbing - as technology progressed, he would add new voice manipulations throughtout his career. That Prince used a voice style on an album to argue that this album is unPrince sounding belies the fact that using different ways to use his voice, even creating different characters by a different voice, is a hallmark of the Prince sound.

.

That WDC is a progression from previous syles he used and it is subsequently progressed in subsequent styles he used but it is a distinct syle used by Prince is my very point - it is from an album that fitted neatly well within Prince's broad range of styles - It is not the most outlying album of all time (ignoring instrumentals).

.

Poetic and clear use of lyrics is also a common trait that started before WDC (eg Controversy, Annie Christian etc) and continued through out his career (eg IIWYGF etc). Using clear, pictorial lyrics does not make WDC unPrince sounding.

.

And yes, 1999 is THE defining album - This is my very argument as to why PR is not THE outlier as the thread proclaims it to be. PR is the album that had to happen as the follow up to 1999 ie a commerical progression from 1999 that succeeded because it was a commercial progression from 1999. And remember, some of this progression is driven by it being a soundtrack album that required different production methods than a studio album. ATWIAD is much more of an outlier in its sound because it was Prince deliberately making a step change so he did not feel trapped by always having to make the next 1999/PR. Parade was also more of an outlier even though it was also soundtrack album, but this was because it was presenting a different character and style rather than just a character based on Prince.

.

A wise person said about the progression of Prince that by 1989 "His albums were less enjoyable to [them]". That by 1990 Prince's progression in his sound and style had left this person (somewhat) behind as less enjoyable. Yet to them PR is within the sound and style of all those before 1990 (perhaps except Batman).

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Reply #48 posted 04/24/22 6:46pm

chrisslope9

avatar

IanRG said:

Vannormal said:

Interesting would be if we could leave the distorded guitar off of Let's Go Crazy.

You'll probably get a song in the spirit of his older rockabilly-ish attempts. Then the sharp synths will dominate.

Also the recording of his voice, the way it was shaped in the studio with overdubs is also something he didn't use all that often on other albums (if i'm not mistaken).

Certainly on Let's Go Crazy there's heavy overdubs of his voice.

Same for Computer Blue, Baby I'm A Star, I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm A Star & Purple Rain.

-

When Doves Cry indeed is a heavy drum machine track, but he did that before.

It is a complete different song, but for some reason ''It'' often reminds me of When Doves Cry (not musically though, just the way it builds up on synths and layers of vocals, and ends with some stunning guitar).

I believe the Shakespearian STYLE lyrics of WDC have to be mentioned as well.

Chrystal clear and very pictural, and especially in the chorus part make it so easy and original to digest for everyone. Lyric-wise, (to me), he did the same with Kiss.

-

But to me the 1999 album refined him the most (for meà.

Purple Rain was something he just had to do nd had to happen.

.

What has this go to do with what I said? We have already agreed that Prince did not just repeat previous albums, that they are either progressions or step changes from the previous albums. You just thought that there was less step change from 1990 on.

.

If you take out how he progressed with Let's Go Crazy - it could sound like a previous style. This could be said for so many songs by so many artists and it does not mean this progression does not sound like Prince because the progression is easily removed in people's minds to see the previous style. The reason Prince is so good is he does make these progressions (and so much more) in his sound. This is why there can be musical themes in so many different songs that can be found in completely songs made previously - even decades previously. These themes succeed because they are progressed, not just repeated - the casual listeners out there may be unaware of prior use of that theme, but they recognise that the new song is Prince sounding.

.

Prince experimented with different ways to use and record his voice all the time. That he did not use overdubbing often is an admission that he did use overdubbing - as technology progressed, he would add new voice manipulations throughtout his career. That Prince used a voice style on an album to argue that this album is unPrince sounding belies the fact that using different ways to use his voice, even creating different characters by a different voice, is a hallmark of the Prince sound.

.

That WDC is a progression from previous syles he used and it is subsequently progressed in subsequent styles he used but it is a distinct syle used by Prince is my very point - it is from an album that fitted neatly well within Prince's broad range of styles - It is not the most outlying album of all time (ignoring instrumentals).

.

Poetic and clear use of lyrics is also a common trait that started before WDC (eg Controversy, Annie Christian etc) and continued through out his career (eg IIWYGF etc). Using clear, pictorial lyrics does not make WDC unPrince sounding.

.

And yes, 1999 is THE defining album - This is my very argument as to why PR is not THE outlier as the thread proclaims it to be. PR is the album that had to happen as the follow up to 1999 ie a commerical progression from 1999 that succeeded because it was a commercial progression from 1999. And remember, some of this progression is driven by it being a soundtrack album that required different production methods than a studio album. ATWIAD is much more of an outlier in its sound because it was Prince deliberately making a step change so he did not feel trapped by always having to make the next 1999/PR. Parade was also more of an outlier even though it was also soundtrack album, but this was because it was presenting a different character and style rather than just a character based on Prince.

.

A wise person said about the progression of Prince that by 1989 "His albums were less enjoyable to [them]". That by 1990 Prince's progression in his sound and style had left this person (somewhat) behind as less enjoyable. Yet to them PR is within the sound and style of all those before 1990 (perhaps except Batman).

AGREE

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Reply #49 posted 04/24/22 7:03pm

TrevorAyer

an arguement could be made that the wider span of collaboration the less it sounds like prince .. purple rain was very fleetwood mac .. 1999 was very prince alone with guest overdubs .. the same could also be said for other band eras such as the diamaonds and pearls band or the renato neto crap that i feel does not sound like prince at all due to renatos constantly playing elevator jazz over perfectly good prince compositions .. you might say that due to the all the influences and money and bandmates and the time and appolonia and movie guys that purple rain was his most collaborative era and therefore the least prince .. on the other hand it may have taken all of that for prince to truly shine in his own vision of himself .. after all .. he can really only do so much all by himself .. does clare fischer make prince sound more like prince or less? does tony m? some might say sinead sound more like prince singing the NC2U than prince does .. i love sheila on love bizarre .. it sounds wrong without her .. is she an extension of prince femenine side that he can't quite convey .. therefore sounding more like the true prince sound he has in his head .. or does she make it sound less prince somehow? as with most musical pop songs .. for me it comes down to lyrics and the music always changes but the poetry humor and delivery on purple rain are all still very prince to me

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Reply #50 posted 04/25/22 2:19am

Vannormal

IanRG said:

Vannormal said:

Interesting would be if we could leave the distorded guitar off of Let's Go Crazy.

You'll probably get a song in the spirit of his older rockabilly-ish attempts. Then the sharp synths will dominate.

Also the recording of his voice, the way it was shaped in the studio with overdubs is also something he didn't use all that often on other albums (if i'm not mistaken).

Certainly on Let's Go Crazy there's heavy overdubs of his voice.

Same for Computer Blue, Baby I'm A Star, I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm A Star & Purple Rain.

-

When Doves Cry indeed is a heavy drum machine track, but he did that before.

It is a complete different song, but for some reason ''It'' often reminds me of When Doves Cry (not musically though, just the way it builds up on synths and layers of vocals, and ends with some stunning guitar).

I believe the Shakespearian STYLE lyrics of WDC have to be mentioned as well.

Chrystal clear and very pictural, and especially in the chorus part make it so easy and original to digest for everyone. Lyric-wise, (to me), he did the same with Kiss.

-

But to me the 1999 album refined him the most (for me personally).

Purple Rain was something he just had to do and had to happen.

What has this go to do with what I said?

My whole reply wasn't an answer to your post.

But anyway, let me answer to some of your interesting remarks.

We have already agreed that Prince did not just repeat previous albums, that they are either progressions or step changes from the previous albums. You just thought that there was less step change from 1990 on.

.

Partially true, imho. I still stand with the less ('less') step change from 90's on.

Sure he did great songs now and then (to me, i have to repeat that!). But his later albums did not live up to my expectations. And i'm well aware that my opinion isn't general either. wink

I started follow Prince from in my early twenties on when Controversy and 1999 came out.

I did not discover Prince in the nineties.

And, it's hard to change the opinion of an old rat.

That being said.. smile

If you take out how he progressed with Let's Go Crazy - it could sound like a previous style. This could be said for so many songs by so many artists and it does not mean this progression does not sound like Prince because the progression is easily removed in people's minds to see the previous style. The reason Prince is so good is he does make these progressions (and so much more) in his sound. This is why there can be musical themes in so many different songs that can be found in completely songs made previously - even decades previously. These themes succeed because they are progressed, not just repeated - the casual listeners out there may be unaware of prior use of that theme, but they recognise that the new song is Prince sounding.

.

True. Prince's sound always was surprising. But not with every new later on.

I found Gold and Rainbow Children very refreshing sounding albums, with loads of good songwriting too - even nice experiements. But they didn't stick that much with me.

Emancipation and Rave... were the worse imo.

Prince experimented with different ways to use and record his voice all the time. That he did not use overdubbing often is an admission that he did use overdubbing - as technology progressed, he would add new voice manipulations throughtout his career. That Prince used a voice style on an album to argue that this album is unPrince sounding belies the fact that using different ways to use his voice, even creating different characters by a different voice, is a hallmark of the Prince sound.

.

I do not (always) agree that he would add new voice manipulations. He repeated earlier ideas, sure, It was his trademark from early on. And a good thing he did. At some point it is hard to be re-inventive again. And that goes for most artists just like for Prince.

I don't think I implied that the way he uses his voice on PR is the (only) reason the album is an unPrince album (according to the idea of the innitial thread). There was also a shit load of echo on his overdubbing. And that alone created a very special and fantastic fierce effect.

And I think I never heard after again later on.

And I'm very aware of Prince using different characters. wink

That WDC is a progression from previous styles he used and it is subsequently progressed in subsequent styles he used but it is a distinct syle used by Prince is my very point - it is from an album that fitted neatly well within Prince's broad range of styles - It is not the most outlying album of all time (ignoring instrumentals).

.

Poetic and clear use of lyrics is also a common trait that started before WDC (eg Controversy, Annie Christian etc) and continued through out his career (eg IIWYGF etc). Using clear, pictorial lyrics does not make WDC unPrince sounding.

.

And yes, 1999 is THE defining album - This is my very argument as to why PR is not THE outlier as the thread proclaims it to be.

PR is the album that had to happen as the follow up to 1999 ie a commerical progression from 1999 that succeeded because it was a commercial progression from 1999. And remember, some of this progression is driven by it being a soundtrack album that required different production methods than a studio album. ATWIAD is much more of an outlier in its sound because it was Prince deliberately making a step change so he did not feel trapped by always having to make the next 1999/PR. Parade was also more of an outlier even though it was also soundtrack album, but this was because it was presenting a different character and style rather than just a character based on Prince.

.

A wise person said about the progression of Prince that by 1989 "His albums were less enjoyable to [them]". That by 1990 Prince's progression in his sound and style had left this person (somewhat) behind as less enjoyable. Yet to them PR is within the sound and style of all those before 1990 (perhaps except Batman).

Again. To me. Every album before 1990 was unique and so much different from the previous one, and in such a high tempo. Another reason why i felt it was hardly repeated after 1990 is the joy i felt in his earlier albums. There was less macho and less urge to prove - my feel.

We had a young wild guy o fire here who fought aginst the speed of light with constant new ideas.

I find every pre-90's album is so unique and different on so many levels from the previous or the next one. It's the way I hear it. (I was so dissapointed when Grafitti Bridge came out, just sayin'.)

And somehow, AlexNevermind28 explained here what I felt for a long time. That PR as an album (not the most, but at least a) very unsounding Prince album in many ways, knowing his complete body of work, and looking at it from a distance... I somehow can relate to that.

There's another angle that is very interesting, and that's the technological advancement in creating and recording music. For instance, Lovesxy had a complete different sound also due to new progress in production techniques. Where i believe that SOTT and Parade both still were strongly connected with his previous style of recording - which happened mostly at Sunsetsound. But that's for another thread. Anyways, to much to discuss. wink

[Edited 4/25/22 2:36am]

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #51 posted 04/25/22 2:41am

Vannormal

TrevorAyer said:

an arguement could be made that the wider span of collaboration the less it sounds like prince .. purple rain was very fleetwood mac .. 1999 was very prince alone with guest overdubs .. the same could also be said for other band eras such as the diamaonds and pearls band or the renato neto crap that i feel does not sound like prince at all due to renatos constantly playing elevator jazz over perfectly good prince compositions .. you might say that due to the all the influences and money and bandmates and the time and appolonia and movie guys that purple rain was his most collaborative era and therefore the least prince .. on the other hand it may have taken all of that for prince to truly shine in his own vision of himself .. after all .. he can really only do so much all by himself .. does clare fischer make prince sound more like prince or less? does tony m? some might say sinead sound more like prince singing the NC2U than prince does .. i love sheila on love bizarre .. it sounds wrong without her .. is she an extension of prince femenine side that he can't quite convey .. therefore sounding more like the true prince sound he has in his head .. or does she make it sound less prince somehow? as with most musical pop songs ..

for me it comes down to lyrics and the music always changes

but the poetry humor and delivery on purple rain are all still very prince to me

Agree.

You now that Prince wanted/demanded his protegees to sing exactly the same then what he did on the original song(s) he created for them.

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #52 posted 04/25/22 4:44am

IanRG

Vannormal said:

IanRG said:

What has this go to do with what I said?

My whole reply wasn't an answer to your post.

But anyway, let me answer to some of your interesting remarks.

We have already agreed that Prince did not just repeat previous albums, that they are either progressions or step changes from the previous albums. You just thought that there was less step change from 1990 on.

.

Partially true, imho. I still stand with the less ('less') step change from 90's on.

Sure he did great songs now and then (to me, i have to repeat that!). But his later albums did not live up to my expectations. And i'm well aware that my opinion isn't general either. wink

I started follow Prince from in my early twenties on when Controversy and 1999 came out.

I did not discover Prince in the nineties.

And, it's hard to change the opinion of an old rat.

That being said.. smile

If you take out how he progressed with Let's Go Crazy - it could sound like a previous style. This could be said for so many songs by so many artists and it does not mean this progression does not sound like Prince because the progression is easily removed in people's minds to see the previous style. The reason Prince is so good is he does make these progressions (and so much more) in his sound. This is why there can be musical themes in so many different songs that can be found in completely songs made previously - even decades previously. These themes succeed because they are progressed, not just repeated - the casual listeners out there may be unaware of prior use of that theme, but they recognise that the new song is Prince sounding.

.

True. Prince's sound always was surprising. But not with every new later on.

I found Gold and Rainbow Children very refreshing sounding albums, with loads of good songwriting too - even nice experiements. But they didn't stick that much with me.

Emancipation and Rave... were the worse imo.

Prince experimented with different ways to use and record his voice all the time. That he did not use overdubbing often is an admission that he did use overdubbing - as technology progressed, he would add new voice manipulations throughtout his career. That Prince used a voice style on an album to argue that this album is unPrince sounding belies the fact that using different ways to use his voice, even creating different characters by a different voice, is a hallmark of the Prince sound.

.

I do not (always) agree that he would add new voice manipulations. He repeated earlier ideas, sure, It was his trademark from early on. And a good thing he did. At some point it is hard to be re-inventive again. And that goes for most artists just like for Prince.

I don't think I implied that the way he uses his voice on PR is the (only) reason the album is an unPrince album (according to the idea of the innitial thread). There was also a shit load of echo on his overdubbing. And that alone created a very special and fantastic fierce effect.

And I think I never heard after again later on.

And I'm very aware of Prince using different characters. wink

That WDC is a progression from previous styles he used and it is subsequently progressed in subsequent styles he used but it is a distinct syle used by Prince is my very point - it is from an album that fitted neatly well within Prince's broad range of styles - It is not the most outlying album of all time (ignoring instrumentals).

.

Poetic and clear use of lyrics is also a common trait that started before WDC (eg Controversy, Annie Christian etc) and continued through out his career (eg IIWYGF etc). Using clear, pictorial lyrics does not make WDC unPrince sounding.

.

And yes, 1999 is THE defining album - This is my very argument as to why PR is not THE outlier as the thread proclaims it to be.

PR is the album that had to happen as the follow up to 1999 ie a commerical progression from 1999 that succeeded because it was a commercial progression from 1999. And remember, some of this progression is driven by it being a soundtrack album that required different production methods than a studio album. ATWIAD is much more of an outlier in its sound because it was Prince deliberately making a step change so he did not feel trapped by always having to make the next 1999/PR. Parade was also more of an outlier even though it was also soundtrack album, but this was because it was presenting a different character and style rather than just a character based on Prince.

.

A wise person said about the progression of Prince that by 1989 "His albums were less enjoyable to [them]". That by 1990 Prince's progression in his sound and style had left this person (somewhat) behind as less enjoyable. Yet to them PR is within the sound and style of all those before 1990 (perhaps except Batman).

Again. To me. Every album before 1990 was unique and so much different from the previous one, and in such a high tempo. Another reason why i felt it was hardly repeated after 1990 is the joy i felt in his earlier albums. There was less macho and less urge to prove - my feel.

We had a young wild guy o fire here who fought aginst the speed of light with constant new ideas.

I find every pre-90's album is so unique and different on so many levels from the previous or the next one. It's the way I hear it. (I was so dissapointed when Grafitti Bridge came out, just sayin'.)

And somehow, AlexNevermind28 explained here what I felt for a long time. That PR as an album (not the most, but at least a) very unsounding Prince album in many ways, knowing his complete body of work, and looking at it from a distance... I somehow can relate to that.

There's another angle that is very interesting, and that's the technological advancement in creating and recording music. For instance, Lovesxy had a complete different sound also due to new progress in production techniques. Where i believe that SOTT and Parade both still were strongly connected with his previous style of recording - which happened mostly at Sunsetsound. But that's for another thread. Anyways, to much to discuss. wink

[Edited 4/25/22 2:36am]

.

I started to follow Prince from earlier than you (aware of him during Prince, into him from Dirty Mind all the way up to HnR 1 & 2) and at a younger age. I do not agree with you on Prince not being inventive after 1989 and that all albums before 1990 were so very different from each previous one - For You/Prince, Dirty Mind/Controversy, 1999/Purple Rain, ATWIAD/Parade are step change, progression, step change, progression,step change, progression, step change, progression.

.

It is obvious that you did not discover Prince in the 1990s and I cannot imagine why your would think I thought that. Thankfully for me, I never personally fell for the trope that many people think music before they were 30 was better than after - I enjoy finding new music from new artists today just as I did in 1980.

.

It seems you cannot explain how PR is so unPrince sounding any more believably than AlexNevermind28. I have spoken to others about this thread and none of them can see that anyone who knows Prince's complete body of work would think PR is unPrince sounding at all, let alone very unPrince sounding or (as Alex says) the most unPrince sounding album. Indeed the further back you stand, the more this is does not make sense - the examples require a micro analysis that over-emphasises PR differences and ignore all examples given of more significant sound changes in other albums (especially ATWIAD).

.

There is no doubt that Prince experimented with different ways to use and record his voice all the time. This does not mean a different voice for each album or each song but that he regularly experimented with different voices throughout his career all the way up to HnR-P1. The overdubbing in PR is simply not that significant a change and probably brought about to by he fact that it is a sound track album that needed to suit the feel of the movie across the songs (Just as Parade did).

.

I am sorry that new songs by Prince since 1990 were unable to move you as they do me.

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Reply #53 posted 04/27/22 2:23am

Vannormal

IanRG said:

Vannormal said:

[Edited 4/25/22 2:36am]

.

I started to follow Prince from earlier than you (aware of him during Prince, into him from Dirty Mind all the way up to HnR 1 & 2) and at a younger age. I do not agree with you on Prince not being inventive after 1989 and that all albums before 1990 were so very different from each previous one - For You/Prince, Dirty Mind/Controversy, 1999/Purple Rain, ATWIAD/Parade are step change, progression, step change, progression,step change, progression, step change, progression.

.

It is obvious that you did not discover Prince in the 1990s and I cannot imagine why your would think I thought that. Thankfully for me, I never personally fell for the trope that many people think music before they were 30 was better than after - I enjoy finding new music from new artists today just as I did in 1980.

.

It seems you cannot explain how PR is so unPrince sounding any more believably than AlexNevermind28. I have spoken to others about this thread and none of them can see that anyone who knows Prince's complete body of work would think PR is unPrince sounding at all, let alone very unPrince sounding or (as Alex says) the most unPrince sounding album. Indeed the further back you stand, the more this is does not make sense - the examples require a micro analysis that over-emphasises PR differences and ignore all examples given of more significant sound changes in other albums (especially ATWIAD).

.

There is no doubt that Prince experimented with different ways to use and record his voice all the time. This does not mean a different voice for each album or each song but that he regularly experimented with different voices throughout his career all the way up to HnR-P1. The overdubbing in PR is simply not that significant a change and probably brought about to by he fact that it is a sound track album that needed to suit the feel of the movie across the songs (Just as Parade did).

.

I am sorry that new songs by Prince since 1990 were unable to move you as they do me.

Let's say you are right in everything you say and refute.

I too enjoy finding new music from new artists today just as I did in the seventies.

Just discoverd Wetleg, Alex Boman, Charlote Adigéry, The Smile, Caribou, Claire Rousay, Sault, etc. I keep up with things (that are more than often far more exciting than anything Prince did in his last years. Talking bout new music. wink (You can seriously bash me on this one if you like). Anyways.

Thought this not a contest I hope, and is not about who is right or less right or wrong.

I can hardly argue any further because we're talking about a feeling here.

I'll will always be open to discover more in his later music - but a feeling is very personal when i say I'm not moved (at all) by Prince's later output - out of all discussions.

[Edited 4/27/22 3:23am]

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #54 posted 04/27/22 8:09am

Krid

I'll will always be open to discover more in his later music - but a feeling is very personal when i say I'm not moved (at all) by Prince's later output - out of all discussions.

[Edited 4/27/22 3:23am]

That is a bit what I meant in my statements above - the "Wow" effect of his albums up to GB was enourmous (in the sense of new sounds and songwriting ideas). Afterwards, it sounded all a bit the same / was not so fresh anymore / sounded like other artists (I for example did not find his copying of 70s soul/funk so convincing - all this "old school music made by real artist" sound). Still, this being Prince, his output remained of great quality mainly, but not as overwhelmingly WOW. But I guess that happens with all artists with such a prolific output.

I know some people state TRC as mindblowing - but not me..

And of course it is my personal opinion wink

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Reply #55 posted 04/27/22 1:34pm

IanRG

Vannormal said:

IanRG said:

.

I started to follow Prince from earlier than you (aware of him during Prince, into him from Dirty Mind all the way up to HnR 1 & 2) and at a younger age. I do not agree with you on Prince not being inventive after 1989 and that all albums before 1990 were so very different from each previous one - For You/Prince, Dirty Mind/Controversy, 1999/Purple Rain, ATWIAD/Parade are step change, progression, step change, progression,step change, progression, step change, progression.

.

It is obvious that you did not discover Prince in the 1990s and I cannot imagine why your would think I thought that. Thankfully for me, I never personally fell for the trope that many people think music before they were 30 was better than after - I enjoy finding new music from new artists today just as I did in 1980.

.

It seems you cannot explain how PR is so unPrince sounding any more believably than AlexNevermind28. I have spoken to others about this thread and none of them can see that anyone who knows Prince's complete body of work would think PR is unPrince sounding at all, let alone very unPrince sounding or (as Alex says) the most unPrince sounding album. Indeed the further back you stand, the more this is does not make sense - the examples require a micro analysis that over-emphasises PR differences and ignore all examples given of more significant sound changes in other albums (especially ATWIAD).

.

There is no doubt that Prince experimented with different ways to use and record his voice all the time. This does not mean a different voice for each album or each song but that he regularly experimented with different voices throughout his career all the way up to HnR-P1. The overdubbing in PR is simply not that significant a change and probably brought about to by he fact that it is a sound track album that needed to suit the feel of the movie across the songs (Just as Parade did).

.

I am sorry that new songs by Prince since 1990 were unable to move you as they do me.

Let's say you are right in everything you say and refute.

I too enjoy finding new music from new artists today just as I did in the seventies.

Just discoverd Wetleg, Alex Boman, Charlote Adigéry, The Smile, Caribou, Claire Rousay, Sault, etc. I keep up with things (that are more than often far more exciting than anything Prince did in his last years. Talking bout new music. wink (You can seriously bash me on this one if you like). Anyways.

Thought this not a contest I hope, and is not about who is right or less right or wrong.

I can hardly argue any further because we're talking about a feeling here.

I'll will always be open to discover more in his later music - but a feeling is very personal when i say I'm not moved (at all) by Prince's later output - out of all discussions.

[Edited 4/27/22 3:23am]

.

It was never about who was right or wrong because what every person likes in music is ALWAYS personal - you should reflect on that. It should not be a case where you ever feel you can hardly argue any further because it was never an argument about your feelings on post 1989 Prince. Nor was it about my personal feelings or what moved me or when either of us discovered Prince or whether an artist can continue to produce innovative or exciting work in the mind of a listener who started listening in their 20s once they get into their 30s.

.

It was always a discussion about whether arguably the most widely recognised Prince sounding album ever was Prince sounding. Everytime I brought it back to this, it wandered back to why you don't like Prince (or at least like Prince as much) from 1990 on. That you personally don't get as moved in your mind now by an artist as when you found them in your mid 20s is such a common trope, but personally not mine. Another common trope I avoid is fans who reject the more successful (i.e. commercial) releases - they were successful for a reason.

.

I will leave you with this: There is an Australian band called Regurgitator who did a tribute song called "! (Song formally known as)" as Quan is a big Prince fan. They also did a song called "I Like Your Old Stuff Better Than Your New Stuff" about this trope.

[Edited 4/27/22 19:06pm]

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Reply #56 posted 04/27/22 2:08pm

LoveGalore

By the way, the OP didn't just use feelings as a rubric. He used a bespoke rubric that is nonsensical, but still not feelings based. The feelings have come in from the people agreeing with him. And those feelings, like many other feelings in life, are also nonsense.
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Reply #57 posted 04/28/22 10:12pm

Vannormal

LoveGalore said:

By the way, the OP didn't just use feelings as a rubric. He used a bespoke rubric that is nonsensical, but still not feelings based. The feelings have come in from the people agreeing with him. And those feelings, like many other feelings in life, are also nonsense.

(English isn't my mother tongue, although I think i can manage. Had to look up the words trope, and bespoke rubric... anyways.)

If you like, change the word feeling for 'experience' or whatever concept suits.

And, as if somehow agreeing with somone's (different) view is 'nonesensical' concerning the likes and ways to experience a Prince album, when he says;

''(...) This is a rock/guitar driven cd that Prince has only done once or twice ever before in his career. Obviously plectrumelectrum and you could argue Lotusflow3r but neither of those contained the high end material Purple Rain did and were mixed in quality (...)''

Although I understand what you're trying to convey.

And know that Purple Rain is my top 3 Prince album. smile

I do disagree with your last comment (in bold) when it comes to the so-called 'rubric feelings',

in any context, that they would be like 'many other feelings in life are also nonsense'.

Peace though. wink

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #58 posted 04/28/22 10:18pm

Vannormal

IanRG said:

I will leave you with this: There is an Australian band called Regurgitator who did a tribute song called "! (Song formally known as)" as Quan is a big Prince fan. They also did a song called "I Like Your Old Stuff Better Than Your New Stuff" about this trope.


Thank you for the musical tips.

I'll check them out - 'about this trope'. wink

S U P P O R T --- U K R A I N E --- N O W --- 4 --- MORE PEACE !!!
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #59 posted 05/06/22 10:30am

Astasheiks

avatar

BalladofPeterParker said:

"Thread topic"

WTF are you talking about???!

biggrin razz lol Guess he is comparing to alot of other Prince CD's in his opinion...

[Edited 5/6/22 10:33am]

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