RighteousOne said:

My favorite...

https://t.co/dfAOta2DSi Ever original, ever provocative. Forever missed. #RIP… "" />

YES.

And definitely YES.

Agreed. Some people say that Prince was very awkward and uncommunicative, but no--the man could be VERY communicative. His camp was one facet of personality among many.

Number23 said:

Quite clearly consciously camp but again, it wasn’t natural - just another deflection tool to shield his awkwardness. Of course, he also made some of the campest music human ears will ever encounter - and I don’t mean that negatively at all. It was simply a minor part of his personality that he could tap into at will for creative purposes. Painting people in broad strokes like ‘camp’ is ridiculous compartmentalisation and simplification for simple minds struggling to comprehend something they don’t quite understand - Prince could also quite confidently adopt the persona of macho alpha male. He was an artist in more ways than one and a trailblazer beyond his music.

His physical stature could only vibe "macho" so much, and he visually telegraphed his masculinity mainly by the beard stylings and controlled by his stance. His lyrics were the most macho--braggadocio--thing that he could otherwise deliver and did in droves. Let us not overlook this OBVIOUS point.

>

I can C how his visage might make people confused, though, lolz!

LoveGalore said:

Number23 said:

Quite clearly consciously camp but again, it wasn’t natural - just another deflection tool to shield his awkwardness. Of course, he also made some of the campest music human ears will ever encounter - and I don’t mean that negatively at all. It was simply a minor part of his personality that he could tap into at will for creative purposes. Painting people in broad strokes like ‘camp’ is ridiculous compartmentalisation and simplification for simple minds struggling to comprehend something they don’t quite understand - Prince could also quite confidently adopt the persona of macho alpha male. He was an artist in more ways than one and a trailblazer beyond his music.

All due respect, but even on his most macho days he was campy. Camp isn't a gender biased concept, first of all. Second of all, I have no idea what your idea of machismo is, but I guarantee it ain't pounds of makeup and high heels. Everything Prince did was campy. He had a campy aesthetic and was inspired by deliriously campy men from James Brown to Clinton to Little Richard. Outside of the clothes, Prince took tons of inspiration from a camp pioneer - Charlie Chaplin. From the peekaboo eyes to his other physical comedy (seen in heavy doses in all 3 of his movies - especially UTCM), Prince didn't do anything in his entire career that didn't have a hefty amount of camp to it.

LoveGalore said:

RIP

DMX Tells A Dope Story Of... - YouTube

Sometimes. Hell yeah, Prince could be campy.

Most of the time it was intentional. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Like the difference between him pretending to wear assless pants, or dance routines where he got joked about getting railed up the booty on stage, or double teamed by Cat and Sheila, or you know, the Lovesexy cover and clouds painted on a suit.

Not sure why the Machismo is a discussion. He'd bare his chest, play with his sex appeal, and there are message forums devoted to talking about the way he filled his pants. He'd take a 4 minute simulated masturbation solo as part of his shows. I mean, what's the question?

lavendardrummachine said:

steakfinger said:

RJOrion said:

LoveGalore said:

All due respect, but even on his most macho days he was campy. Camp isn't a gender biased concept, first of all. Second of all, I have no idea what your idea of machismo is, but I guarantee it ain't pounds of makeup and high heels. Everything Prince did was campy. He had a campy aesthetic and was inspired by deliriously campy men from James Brown to Clinton to Little Richard. Outside of the clothes, Prince took tons of inspiration from a camp pioneer - Charlie Chaplin. From the peekaboo eyes to his other physical comedy (seen in heavy doses in all 3 of his movies - especially UTCM), Prince didn't do anything in his entire career that didn't have a hefty amount of camp to it.

WORD...i too, have never seen machismo in any form, displayed by a 5'2 man with ultra permed hair, arched eyebrows, who wears high heeled boots and shoes, layers of makeup, ruffled shirts, animal print bikini panties, and leg warmers....Prince was the greatest, but machismo and Prince NEVER belong in the same sentence...i dont care how deep his voice was, or how cool his pimp strut/diddy-bop walk was...or how much power and control he wielded over his bandmates and subordinates.

-

From his looks, there was basically no(t much) mochismo,

but he could damn well act that way or be one.

-

Although machismo has nothing to do with power or control (nore a deep voice).

(Ultra) Machismo is in fact nothing to do with power and/or control.

It's just an extreme mono form for showing off, and only an über focus on one's own image, just to get pussy or whatever strong need that needs to be filled primarely.

-

LoveGalore said:

steakfinger said:

Campy people are campy on purpose. You don’t NOT know you’re being campy. It’s a choice one makes. Liberace was well-aware he didn’t dress like others. Everything Freddie Mercury did was for attention. Being campy is s choice.

Not necessarily true. Plenty people just are that eccentric and it's campy. If you're of the same beliefs as Susan Sontag (who wrote a definitive book on the subject 50 yrs ago), then unintentionally camp people are more endearing/satisfying. I'd say Prince was somewhere in the middle. Sometimes, he was intentional with his camp. Sometimes, he couldn't help it (think of his attempts at swagger or machismo).

-

Oh Yes!

That book as a total recommendation for all men.

Also Camila Pagial's 'Sexual Mask'.

...and so many other great books written mostly by women concerning men and society, behaviour and power.

-

His nutty outfits.

I don't consider Prince campy in the slightest. As I've always thought of it, to be campy, there needs to be something laughable about the performer, as in they aren't in on the joke, so that we are "laughing at them, not with them." OR, there needs to be something about their work that is meant to be seen as ironically over-the-top, constructed as silly and unserious.

To me, there is nothing particularly funny about Prince except his excellent sense of humor. I don't see him as a joke -- ever. And I don't think he does anything ironically -- I think he means every word and I believe he means it all, and it never comes off as winking at us or that we are more sophisticated in our irony than he is.

Unfortunately, "campy" is often mistaken for "heroic." Prince is a romantic hero and villain from an earlier time, like Lord Byron or the Marquis de Sade. To call him camp is to make him a punchline. I've never gone for that. He's a poet from an earlier era that just happens to have lived in this time.

paraded said:

I don't consider Prince campy in the slightest. As I've always thought of it, to be campy, there needs to be something laughable about the performer, as in they aren't in on the joke, so that we are "laughing at them, not with them." OR, there needs to be something about their work that is meant to be seen as ironically over-the-top, constructed as silly and unserious.

To me, there is nothing particularly funny about Prince except his excellent sense of humor. I don't see him as a joke -- ever. And I don't think he does anything ironically -- I think he means every word and I believe he means it all, and it never comes off as winking at us or that we are more sophisticated in our irony than he is.

Unfortunately, "campy" is often mistaken for "heroic." Prince is a romantic hero and villain from an earlier time, like Lord Byron or the Marquis de Sade. To call him camp is to make him a punchline. I've never gone for that. He's a poet from an earlier era that just happens to have lived in this time.

-

Seriously not what I agree with.

I considder Prince campy in the slightest and the highest - very unique though.

There is a lot laughable about most of his looks and some performances too - still very unique, but often utter camp.

Less when he got older. Still he remained a bit off track with moonboots, prints of his own image on his clothings everywhere, large jewelry, glitter and see through clothing, female haircuts. (His afro was the best though imho.)

Yes he did over-the-top work, wrote over-the-top songs and did over-the-top movies and video's, silly and not necessarely unserious - again, still very unique in whatever he did.

No he did not meant every word he said or sang.

Why else change his language later on in his live performances and records, etc.

He was a guy full of doubt and (too much switching) believes, just very human in fact. Thankfully.

But I do agree he was a romantic, maybe even more than the sex driven dirty mind macho something he wanted us all to believe so strongly. Rape? Incest? Lust U Always?

Probably in his mind, and that led to hundreds of fantastic songs ! The drive for all kinds of sex had his strongest outcome in many of his songs i believe.

Never heard any of his bed partners talking in details about his sexlife.

From what we all need to believe he had so many women and so much sex (yes there was time in the early days, maybe).

Once if i recall correct, I think it was Mayté who said he was more of a gentleman and a romancer in bed. (correct me if i'm wrong, it could be another girl)

He was a hero in what he dare to do and how to dress etc.

And a poet? He sometimes was a poet, not quite often enough to my likes.

But he damn sure wrote fantastic songs and wonderful lyrics sometimes.

Compare him with Leonard Cohen, lyrical... and see for yourself.

Yes he was overal a tremendous unique & full campy genderfluent hetero sexual guy way before anyone else (maybe Little Richard and some sis it before him). He brought the whole camp style to another level. That's true.

All my personal opinion of coure.

Peace though.

-

paraded said:

LoveGalore said:

paraded said:

I don't consider Prince campy in the slightest. As I've always thought of it, to be campy, there needs to be something laughable about the performer, as in they aren't in on the joke, so that we are "laughing at them, not with them." OR, there needs to be something about their work that is meant to be seen as ironically over-the-top, constructed as silly and unserious.

To me, there is nothing particularly funny about Prince except his excellent sense of humor. I don't see him as a joke -- ever. And I don't think he does anything ironically -- I think he means every word and I believe he means it all, and it never comes off as winking at us or that we are more sophisticated in our irony than he is.

Unfortunately, "campy" is often mistaken for "heroic." Prince is a romantic hero and villain from an earlier time, like Lord Byron or the Marquis de Sade. To call him camp is to make him a punchline. I've never gone for that. He's a poet from an earlier era that just happens to have lived in this time.

I mean it's all well and good that you don't laugh at Prince getting buttfucked by other men on stage while wearing roller skates and lip gloss but hey. Some of us are laughing.

As well you should. And I definitely laugh at that too. I never said nor meant to imply he's not extremely funny. But funny and campy are different things to me. As I said, he's got an incredible sense of humor. To me, all of that sexual and bodypart humor is Rabalesian and Chaucerian, him being bawdy and silly and funny and sexy all at once. But to me Prince is a little too complex and ambiguous in his character and music to be camp, which are usually monumental, brilliant figures of innocent sincerity or bad taste, like Ethel Merman or John Waters' films. But perhaps we just have different definitions of camp. To me, Prince is much more kitsch than camp.

Vannormal said:

paraded said:

I don't consider Prince campy in the slightest. As I've always thought of it, to be campy, there needs to be something laughable about the performer, as in they aren't in on the joke, so that we are "laughing at them, not with them." OR, there needs to be something about their work that is meant to be seen as ironically over-the-top, constructed as silly and unserious.

To me, there is nothing particularly funny about Prince except his excellent sense of humor. I don't see him as a joke -- ever. And I don't think he does anything ironically -- I think he means every word and I believe he means it all, and it never comes off as winking at us or that we are more sophisticated in our irony than he is.

Unfortunately, "campy" is often mistaken for "heroic." Prince is a romantic hero and villain from an earlier time, like Lord Byron or the Marquis de Sade. To call him camp is to make him a punchline. I've never gone for that. He's a poet from an earlier era that just happens to have lived in this time.

-

Seriously not what I agree with.

I considder Prince campy in the slightest and the highest - very unique though.

There is a lot laughable about most of his looks and some performances too - still very unique, but often utter camp.

Less when he got older. Still he remained a bit off track with moonboots, prints of his own image on his clothings everywhere, large jewelry, glitter and see through clothing, female haircuts. (His afro was the best though imho.)

Yes he did over-the-top work, wrote over-the-top songs and did over-the-top movies and video's, silly and not necessarely unserious - again, still very unique in whatever he did.

No he did not meant every word he said or sang.

Why else change his language later on in his live performances and records, etc.

He was a guy full of doubt and (too much switching) believes, just very human in fact. Thankfully.

But I do agree he was a romantic, maybe even more than the sex driven dirty mind macho something he wanted us all to believe so strongly. Rape? Incest? Lust U Always?

Probably in his mind, and that led to hundreds of fantastic songs ! The drive for all kinds of sex had his strongest outcome in many of his songs i believe.

Never heard any of his bed partners talking in details about his sexlife.

From what we all need to believe he had so many women and so much sex (yes there was time in the early days, maybe).

Once if i recall correct, I think it was Mayté who said he was more of a gentleman and a romancer in bed. (correct me if i'm wrong, it could be another girl)

He was a hero in what he dare to do and how to dress etc.

And a poet? He sometimes was a poet, not quite often enough to my likes.

But he damn sure wrote fantastic songs and wonderful lyrics sometimes.

Compare him with Leonard Cohen, lyrical... and see for yourself.

Yes he was overal a tremendous unique & full campy genderfluent hetero sexual guy way before anyone else (maybe Little Richard and some sis it before him). He brought the whole camp style to another level. That's true.

All my personal opinion of coure.

Peace though.

-

Totally respect your views on him. Perhaps my definition of camp is a little too subtle, as I see a difference between camp and kitsch, which many would say there isn't. To me kitsch is more three dimensional and ambiguous, whereas camp is straightforward and flatter in its iconography. And by "poet" I didn't mean lyrically always, more that his entire spirit was that of a great knight in medieval times out on a quest.

paraded said:

paraded said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

paraded said:

I don't consider Prince campy in the slightest. As I've always thought of it, to be campy, there needs to be something laughable about the performer, as in they aren't in on the joke, so that we are "laughing at them, not with them." OR, there needs to be something about their work that is meant to be seen as ironically over-the-top, constructed as silly and unserious.

To me, there is nothing particularly funny about Prince except his excellent sense of humor. I don't see him as a joke -- ever. And I don't think he does anything ironically -- I think he means every word and I believe he means it all, and it never comes off as winking at us or that we are more sophisticated in our irony than he is.

Unfortunately, "campy" is often mistaken for "heroic." Prince is a romantic hero and villain from an earlier time, like Lord Byron or the Marquis de Sade. To call him camp is to make him a punchline. I've never gone for that. He's a poet from an earlier era that just happens to have lived in this time.

Youre getting ironic and camp mixed up Prince was very secure in his Image for a long time which is why he could do silly facial gestures, make himself look vulnerable, give power to others on stage After 96 or maybe earlier, he wanted to be seen as more typucally masculine, but this actually made him look sillier and more camp Before though, he had a brilliant sense of self awareness I wouldn't say he was ever ironic though, or insincere because he always was, even if he knew it was funny He was not afraid to commit to what he was about Ironic artists have more distance between themselves and their music (eg beck in the 90s) Kitsch is more a value judgement made by the audience So you could see prince as doing kitsch stuff I wouldn't though The only possible kitsch stuff prince made were the songs where he pastiched his old 80s songs and sound [Edited 4/24/21 6:27am]

I'm slightly regretting making the distinction between kitsch and camp because the categories don't particularly matter, and their difference is tricky to explain outside a long essay -- which is why Sontag's camp piece takes a while to read. Something can be called "campy" and something can be called "kitschy" and, as LoveGalore says, something can be both, and I accept that Prince might be both to some. However, *as I have come to perceive it*, having read Sontag's essay, campiness emphasizes the larger-than-life, the purest emotion in such a totally unashamed, unconfused way that it comes off as spectacularly ridiculous. That's the pleasure of it, the ridiculousness. It is not about the human, the flawed, the ambiguous. That's why Sirk's movies, Ethel Merman, Liberace, Cher and Lady Gaga are classic camp icons. But Prince's persona is nothing like those to me -- not larger than life and pure in its intention, even if he wears crazy outfits and sings his heart out. He's so often coming from a human, deeply conflicted, vulnerable place, even when he's triumphant and swaggering. It's human-scale -- even when he's grandiose, cocky or despairing, there's always something else clashing with those feelings, undercutting them.

The kitschy part of Prince's work is the way he fuses high art and low art together -- his musical complexity and religiousity mixed with his dirty mindedness and purposeful silliness/fun. That's what also separates him from the icons I've listed -- he consciously mixes the two together, which is the essence of kitsch. Kitsch to me, by the way, is not a criticism, per se. Pauline Kael and others have noted that a lot of the best films ever made are kitschy -- mixing the "high art" and "low art" together -- which he does so brilliantly. And even her review of Purple Rain makes note of his genius in this manner.

[Edited 4/25/21 1:54am]