"Hell, he's got it all! Multi-musician with a damned vengeance! As a drummer he can hold it down, you know what I'm sayin'? There's not many cats can nail it tight with current technology makin' most drummers damn near obsolete. As a guitar player... he puts out! Plus, he's a goddamn great piano player. Matter of fact, he's about as good as they get, and I've worked with the best, I should know!" - Miles on Miles, Interviews and Encounters with Miles Davis

Yep. Enough said.

.

[Edited 4/17/21 8:17am]

skywalker said:

"Hell, he's got it all! Multi-musician with a damned vengeance! As a drummer he can hold it down, you know what I'm sayin'? There's not many cats can nail it tight with current technology makin' most drummers damn near obsolete. As a guitar player... he puts out! Plus, he's a goddamn great piano player. Matter of fact, he's about as good as they get, and I've worked with the best, I should know!" - Miles on Miles, Interviews and Encounters with Miles Davis

Yep. Enough said.

And if you still need proof, Thomas...
let the music(ian) speak.

Wut? U say U're a busy man?
Just have the time for the one song?
This 1st hopefully will do.

[Edited 4/12/21 4:45am]

IAdoreWeronika said:

We? Me? You? Him? Her? Or them?

Did you mean You Me And Him (poligamy mix) by Mtume?

masaba said:

What makes you think P couldn't improvise over Giant Steps if he learned the chords?

.

Well, I have some friends who play jazz and are professional musicians, and they say that Giant Steps is a song that even the people who play jazz in a daily basis fear. A guy only dares to improvise over it in public if he practices this song every day for some weeks. Stevie Wonder probably loved this song and enjoyed practicing over it.

.

There are recordings of Prince soloing over ´Footprints´, but he plays basically blues pentatonic licks. It´s cool, but wouldn´t impress jazz musicians.

.

Having said that, I think Prince could play all those instruments very well, but his ´school´ is more rooted on rock/funk. He learned some jazz (we can feel in some of his arrangements, like She Spoke 2 me) but he didnt improvise in a fluent way on jazz.

GustavoRibas said:

masaba said:

What makes you think P couldn't improvise over Giant Steps if he learned the chords?

.

Well, I have some friends who play jazz and are professional musicians, and they say that Giant Steps is a song that even the people who play jazz in a daily basis fear. A guy only dares to improvise over it in public if he practices this song every day for some weeks. Stevie Wonder probably loved this song and enjoyed practicing over it.

.

There are recordings of Prince soloing over ´Footprints´, but he plays basically blues pentatonic licks. It´s cool, but wouldn´t impress jazz musicians.

.

Having said that, I think Prince could play all those instruments very well, but his ´school´ is more rooted on rock/funk. He learned some jazz (we can feel in some of his arrangements, like She Spoke 2 me) but he didnt improvise in a fluent way on jazz.

Prince loves hooks too much.
He needs that pulse going on.
This is a party.

His funk can be jazz-tainted,
but Chick Corea he ain't, Baby.

Still, masaba is right, he could have been a jazz musician.
If he had put his mind on one single instrument,
or on arrangements alone, no doubt he would have been a giant.

But with all these visuals and the songwriting and the producing and the composing
and the rehearsals and the lighting supervision and the photoshoot and the arena and the small club in the wee hours, well.

GustavoRibas said:

masaba said:

What makes you think P couldn't improvise over Giant Steps if he learned the chords?

.

Well, I have some friends who play jazz and are professional musicians, and they say that Giant Steps is a song that even the people who play jazz in a daily basis fear. A guy only dares to improvise over it in public if he practices this song every day for some weeks. Stevie Wonder probably loved this song and enjoyed practicing over it.

.

There are recordings of Prince soloing over ´Footprints´, but he plays basically blues pentatonic licks. It´s cool, but wouldn´t impress jazz musicians.

.

Having said that, I think Prince could play all those instruments very well, but his ´school´ is more rooted on rock/funk. He learned some jazz (we can feel in some of his arrangements, like She Spoke 2 me) but he didnt improvise in a fluent way on jazz.

100%

masaba said:

I listen to a lot of music and understand Prince's limits instrumentally, and I disagree completely. The more you listen to music, the more you realize the most difficult thing to teach is writing and playing in a way that moves people. You can learn all the techniques in the world, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to make people laugh or smile or cry with your instrument. Prince was blessed with an incredible gift to be able to do that. A great analogy is in literature. Look at a book like Things Fall Apart, or the Ernest Hemingway's work. The language is simple and straight forward. But it's no less elegant and impactful than much more complicated works. You could learn every technique in the book and work on your craft for your whole life, but the chances of you being able to move people in the same way as the aforementioned simple prose is slim to none. Prince played his guitar exactly how he wanted to play it and it accomplished exactly what he wanted it to accomplish. And for that I believe he was a fantastic guitar player. He could play the shit out of that thing. But depends on what your looking for at the end of the day. Comparing Prince to John McLaughlin in an attempt to diminish Prince is a little ridiculous in my mind. There's no point to those comparisons. And also it's disrespectful to call him an average to below average pop guitarist. Not only is that meaningless nonsense, it's disrespectful to the legacy of P. Fuck outta here with that.

Thank You!

langebleu said:

Have they moved April Fool's day this year?

Then again, I'm sure that, several years after the crucifixion, there was also the occasional Palestinian saying - 'T'hat Jesus, he was a great crowd pleaser but, when it came to conjuring tricks, I'd give him a 4 out of 10 at best. Compared to some of the latest street healers .... he had a lot to learn".

In fact, only last week I was chatting with a couple of scientist friends and we were pretty much agreed that, as much as Einstein was a lovely guy who had an idea or two, when it came to truly DEEP thinking, he only merited a C- on a good day.

Astasheiks said:

masaba said:

I listen to a lot of music and understand Prince's limits instrumentally, and I disagree completely. The more you listen to music, the more you realize the most difficult thing to teach is writing and playing in a way that moves people. You can learn all the techniques in the world, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to make people laugh or smile or cry with your instrument. Prince was blessed with an incredible gift to be able to do that. A great analogy is in literature. Look at a book like Things Fall Apart, or the Ernest Hemingway's work. The language is simple and straight forward. But it's no less elegant and impactful than much more complicated works. You could learn every technique in the book and work on your craft for your whole life, but the chances of you being able to move people in the same way as the aforementioned simple prose is slim to none. Prince played his guitar exactly how he wanted to play it and it accomplished exactly what he wanted it to accomplish. And for that I believe he was a fantastic guitar player. He could play the shit out of that thing. But depends on what your looking for at the end of the day. Comparing Prince to John McLaughlin in an attempt to diminish Prince is a little ridiculous in my mind. There's no point to those comparisons. And also it's disrespectful to call him an average to below average pop guitarist. Not only is that meaningless nonsense, it's disrespectful to the legacy of P. Fuck outta here with that.

Thank You!

So it's ok Prince to compare to Hendrix but not to Mclauglin.

Cause the comparation came from comparing jazz fusion projects by Prince with those of people who are from the fusion field.i don't try to diminish anything regarding Prince.as a matter of fact in real life discussions i was always defending Prince from all kind on nonsense comments.Prince didn't have time in a day like other musicians who only practise 1 instrument have.If Prince wanted he could have been a beast if he choose only 1 instrument to practice at least 3,4 hours a day. practicing for 1 hour will only keep u in shape but you wont improve

thebanishedone said:

Astasheiks said:

Thank You!

So it's ok Prince to compare to Hendrix but not to Mclauglin.

Cause the comparation came from comparing jazz fusion projects by Prince with those of people who are from the fusion field.i don't try to diminish anything regarding Prince.as a matter of fact in real life discussions i was always defending Prince from all kind on nonsense comments.Prince didn't have time in a day like other musicians who only practise 1 instrument have.If Prince wanted he could have been a beast if he choose only 1 instrument to practice at least 3,4 hours a day. practicing for 1 hour will only keep u in shape but you wont improve

Prince was a beast - he was the best in the business. Could you send a You Tube link of a jazz musician playing Fantasie Impromptu? Well then... they need to get practising! I have asked repeatedly on this thread what jazz folks enjoy and are listening to... still waiting. 'On the Corner' is one of the most iconic jazz albums, and when it came out it was declared a piece of 'sht'... not, 'the sht'. If someone is an effective communicator in a business setting, they are not writing like Dostoevsky. I know a few professional, schooled jazz musicians too... who could never in a million years perform like Prince. But you go ahead and keep defending poor Prince...

bonatoc said:

GustavoRibas said:

.

Well, I have some friends who play jazz and are professional musicians, and they say that Giant Steps is a song that even the people who play jazz in a daily basis fear. A guy only dares to improvise over it in public if he practices this song every day for some weeks. Stevie Wonder probably loved this song and enjoyed practicing over it.

.

There are recordings of Prince soloing over ´Footprints´, but he plays basically blues pentatonic licks. It´s cool, but wouldn´t impress jazz musicians.

.

Having said that, I think Prince could play all those instruments very well, but his ´school´ is more rooted on rock/funk. He learned some jazz (we can feel in some of his arrangements, like She Spoke 2 me) but he didnt improvise in a fluent way on jazz.

Prince loves hooks too much.
He needs that pulse going on.
This is a party.

His funk can be jazz-tainted,
but Chick Corea he ain't, Baby.

Still, masaba is right, he could have been a jazz musician.
If he had put his mind on one single instrument,
or on arrangements alone, no doubt he would have been a giant.

But with all these visuals and the songwriting and the producing and the composing
and the rehearsals and the lighting supervision and the photoshoot and the arena and the small club in the wee hours, well.

Hard sell pop music without hooks. I mean 'Solo' is a beautiful song... but a hard sell if one is trying to get onto mainstream popular radio. And Chick Corea ain't Prince... and I suspect nobody on this thread even has one of his albums in their collection. Prince was not a jazz musician... and never claimed to be.

langebleu said:

Have they moved April Fool's day this year?

Then again, I'm sure that, several years after the crucifixion, there was also the occasional Palestinian saying - 'T'hat Jesus, he was a great crowd pleaser but, when it came to conjuring tricks, I'd give him a 4 out of 10 at best. Compared to some of the latest street healers .... he had a lot to learn".

In fact, only last week I was chatting with a couple of scientist friends and we were pretty much agreed that, as much as Einstein was a lovely guy who had an idea or two, when it came to truly DEEP thinking, he only merited a C- on a good day.

Yes, the religious leaders of Jesus' time called him the devil... after all, he healed people and simplified religion.

.

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”

[Edited 4/13/21 17:21pm]

MoodyBlumes said:

And Chick Corea ain't Prince... and I suspect nobody on this thread even has one of his albums in their collection.

.

Wrong.

olb99 said:

MoodyBlumes said:

And Chick Corea ain't Prince... and I suspect nobody on this thread even has one of his albums in their collection.

.

Wrong.

well u suspect wrong.i have all Return To Forever and some of Chic Corea Electric Band

Depends on who you mean when you say "we". People on the org FAR overrate Prince as a musician, but even that depends on how you define musician. If you mean musician as in studio musician, then he is pretty overrated.

Name me an instrument Prince plays and I'll name you 100 people who can play it better strictly as far as athletics goes. Prince was an amazing musician and more than competent on the instruments he played, but he was no Steve Vai on guitar, no Jaco or Jamerson on bass, no Chick Corea on piano, and no Dave Garibaldi (one of his big heroes), on drums.

Prince's strengths were in his ideas. Also in his ability to suggest a lot with very simple ideas. He could create an interesting part that would be easy to play and VERY clever, but a "better" musician would try to come up with something to impress his friends. This approach rarely serves the song. Prince always served the song.

Prince was about the complete picture. Live he could show off, but he was very economical in the studio because he was trying to get the song out and be fast.

I had a lot of friends in jazz school who thought there was nothing special about Prince no matter how many albums I played them because his singing is the only impressive thing about his records from a musician standpoint. When I played live video/audio or convinced them to see him live THEN they understood and became lifelong fans. Musicians listen to music differently than non-musicians and they can place a lot of value on things that normal folks don't even hear. Prince was interested in reaching the masses. That's a thing he would not have been able to do had he wandered into fusion or prog rock. He wanted asses dancing and dollars rolling in. Having said that, he would ALWAYS sneak something in a track to show the musicians he knew what was up, but sometimes even a musician would have to listen pretty hard to find it.

Was Prince the best musician? No. Not even close. Would I rather listen to Prince play something simple than listen to the greats show off? Yes. Every time.

steakfinger said:

steakfinger said:

Name me an instrument Prince plays and I'll name you 100 people who can play it better strictly as far as athletics goes. Prince was an amazing musician and more than competent on the instruments he played, but he was no Steve Vai on guitar, no Jaco or Jamerson on bass, no Chick Corea on piano, and no Dave Garibaldi (one of his big heroes), on drums.

Yes, but all of those musicians who are better than him on one instrument are only great at that one particular instrument. They dedicated their lives to mastering one thing, and subsequently are never better than average on other instruments.

In contrast, Prince may not have been the absolutely best at any one instrument, but he was great at many instruments. That, in and of itself, is amazing. To be able to pick up any instrument (save horns) and be not merely merely good, but great at it, is special.

That's why he can rightfully be called an amazing instrumentalist -- because he's talents were so impressively broad.

lurker316 said:

steakfinger said:

Name me an instrument Prince plays and I'll name you 100 people who can play it better strictly as far as athletics goes. Prince was an amazing musician and more than competent on the instruments he played, but he was no Steve Vai on guitar, no Jaco or Jamerson on bass, no Chick Corea on piano, and no Dave Garibaldi (one of his big heroes), on drums.

Yes, but all of those musicians who are better than him on one instrument are only great at that one particular instrument. They dedicated their lives to mastering one thing, and subsequently are never better than average on other instruments.

In contrast, Prince may not have been the absolutely best at any one instrument, but he was great at many instruments. That, in and of itself, is amazing. To be able to pick up any instrument (save horns) and be not merely merely good, but great at it, is special.

That's why he can rightfully be called an amazing instrumentalist -- because he's talents were so impressively broad.

Kinda agree, kinda don't. P was one of the best on guitar. But if we use versatility as the yardstick to measure greatness, he was THE best on guitar. Also, ffs how many times does it have to be stated, technical prowess on the guitar does NOT equal greatness. I've heard plenty Steve Vai, Malmsteen, Van Halen and their stuff is all uneven. A brilliant guitar solo means it has to be that, first note to last. That means having the right feel for what right notes to play.

Deuces!

olb99 said:

MoodyBlumes said:

And Chick Corea ain't Prince... and I suspect nobody on this thread even has one of his albums in their collection.

.

Wrong.

steakfinger said:

Depends on who you mean when you say "we". People on the org FAR overrate Prince as a musician, but even that depends on how you define musician. If you mean musician as in studio musician, then he is pretty overrated.

Name me an instrument Prince plays and I'll name you 100 people who can play it better strictly as far as athletics goes. Prince was an amazing musician and more than competent on the instruments he played, but he was no Steve Vai on guitar, no Jaco or Jamerson on bass, no Chick Corea on piano, and no Dave Garibaldi (one of his big heroes), on drums.

Prince's strengths were in his ideas. Also in his ability to suggest a lot with very simple ideas. He could create an interesting part that would be easy to play and VERY clever, but a "better" musician would try to come up with something to impress his friends. This approach rarely serves the song. Prince always served the song.

Prince was about the complete picture. Live he could show off, but he was very economical in the studio because he was trying to get the song out and be fast.

I had a lot of friends in jazz school who thought there was nothing special about Prince no matter how many albums I played them because his singing is the only impressive thing about his records from a musician standpoint. When I played live video/audio or convinced them to see him live THEN they understood and became lifelong fans. Musicians listen to music differently than non-musicians and they can place a lot of value on things that normal folks don't even hear. Prince was interested in reaching the masses. That's a thing he would not have been able to do had he wandered into fusion or prog rock. He wanted asses dancing and dollars rolling in. Having said that, he would ALWAYS sneak something in a track to show the musicians he knew what was up, but sometimes even a musician would have to listen pretty hard to find it.

Was Prince the best musician? No. Not even close. Would I rather listen to Prince play something simple than listen to the greats show off? Yes. Every time.

satisfies my interest and view on the subject. Well said!

fortuneandserendipity said:

lurker316 said:

Yes, but all of those musicians who are better than him on one instrument are only great at that one particular instrument. They dedicated their lives to mastering one thing, and subsequently are never better than average on other instruments.

In contrast, Prince may not have been the absolutely best at any one instrument, but he was great at many instruments. That, in and of itself, is amazing. To be able to pick up any instrument (save horns) and be not merely merely good, but great at it, is special.

That's why he can rightfully be called an amazing instrumentalist -- because he's talents were so impressively broad.

Kinda agree, kinda don't. P was one of the best on guitar. But if we use versatility as the yardstick to measure greatness, he was THE best on guitar. Also, ffs how many times does it have to be stated, technical prowess on the guitar does NOT equal greatness. I've heard plenty Steve Vai, Malmsteen, Van Halen and their stuff is all uneven. A brilliant guitar solo means it has to be that, first note to last. That means having the right feel for what right notes to play.

you do know you have guitar players with much better technique and much more soul than Steve Vai and Van Halen. for example : https://www.youtube.com/w...0XNBq-vPXo

thebanishedone said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Kinda agree, kinda don't. P was one of the best on guitar. But if we use versatility as the yardstick to measure greatness, he was THE best on guitar. Also, ffs how many times does it have to be stated, technical prowess on the guitar does NOT equal greatness. I've heard plenty Steve Vai, Malmsteen, Van Halen and their stuff is all uneven. A brilliant guitar solo means it has to be that, first note to last. That means having the right feel for what right notes to play.

you do know you have guitar players with much better technique and much more soul than Steve Vai and Van Halen. for example : https://www.youtube.com/w...0XNBq-vPXo

I agree with you. But Bill Connors is a bit before my time. Shawn Lane, at least when he was more melodic and Guthrie Govan are my faves. And Buckethead knows how to rock.

[Edited 4/14/21 17:20pm]

thebanishedone said:

olb99 said:

.

Wrong.

well u suspect wrong.i have all Return To Forever and some of Chic Corea Electric Band

Downloaded them this morning did you... well good on you. Now you can head to the jazz forums and start threads about how overrated Chick is because he can't play Rachmaninoff for beans. But don't forget to mention that you've loved Chick from childhood and he is your fav.

olb99 said:

MoodyBlumes said:

And Chick Corea ain't Prince... and I suspect nobody on this thread even has one of his albums in their collection.

.

Wrong.

Nope

steakfinger said:

Depends on who you mean when you say "we". People on the org FAR overrate Prince as a musician, but even that depends on how you define musician. If you mean musician as in studio musician, then he is pretty overrated.

Name me an instrument Prince plays and I'll name you 100 people who can play it better strictly as far as athletics goes. Prince was an amazing musician and more than competent on the instruments he played, but he was no Steve Vai on guitar, no Jaco or Jamerson on bass, no Chick Corea on piano, and no Dave Garibaldi (one of his big heroes), on drums.

Prince's strengths were in his ideas. Also in his ability to suggest a lot with very simple ideas. He could create an interesting part that would be easy to play and VERY clever, but a "better" musician would try to come up with something to impress his friends. This approach rarely serves the song. Prince always served the song.

Prince was about the complete picture. Live he could show off, but he was very economical in the studio because he was trying to get the song out and be fast.

I had a lot of friends in jazz school who thought there was nothing special about Prince no matter how many albums I played them because his singing is the only impressive thing about his records from a musician standpoint. When I played live video/audio or convinced them to see him live THEN they understood and became lifelong fans. Musicians listen to music differently than non-musicians and they can place a lot of value on things that normal folks don't even hear. Prince was interested in reaching the masses. That's a thing he would not have been able to do had he wandered into fusion or prog rock. He wanted asses dancing and dollars rolling in. Having said that, he would ALWAYS sneak something in a track to show the musicians he knew what was up, but sometimes even a musician would have to listen pretty hard to find it.

Was Prince the best musician? No. Not even close. Would I rather listen to Prince play something simple than listen to the greats show off? Yes. Every time.

How do your buddies feel about opera?

Here is Miles' son Erin speaking on Purple Rain (Miles had Erin learn 1999, the album): Clip | Miles Davis Loved ... - YouTube

.

There are many who don't find anything special about much of jazz - not everyone is Miles Davis or Duke Ellington.

.

Prince came to Owen Husney playing 20 minute songs, and Owen told him to write nursery rhymes. Seems to have worked out in the end, your taste is simple music for the masses. Which greats do you find to be showing off?

MoodyBlumes said:

thebanishedone said:

well u suspect wrong.i have all Return To Forever and some of Chic Corea Electric Band

Downloaded them this morning did you... well good on you. Now you can head to the jazz forums and start threads about how overrated Chick is because he can't play Rachmaninoff for beans. But don't forget to mention that you've loved Chick from childhood and he is your fav.

this morning? man i don't know if you ever listened to that band but the band is amazing and i love them since my childhood and believe it or not a lot of people love Return To Forever.

Who told you Chic can't play Rachmaninoff?

Who the funk you think u are 2 tell me what to do?Just because you are depressed about your sad life and your sad looks it don't mean you should b a jerk.but it's up to you.all i can say is i see you have nothing to debate,nothing to offer except your petty provocation.so this is my last ever response to you on Prince .org. Vaya Con Dios

[Edited 4/15/21 2:22am]

MoodyBlumes said:

steakfinger said:

Depends on who you mean when you say "we". People on the org FAR overrate Prince as a musician, but even that depends on how you define musician. If you mean musician as in studio musician, then he is pretty overrated.

Name me an instrument Prince plays and I'll name you 100 people who can play it better strictly as far as athletics goes. Prince was an amazing musician and more than competent on the instruments he played, but he was no Steve Vai on guitar, no Jaco or Jamerson on bass, no Chick Corea on piano, and no Dave Garibaldi (one of his big heroes), on drums.

Prince's strengths were in his ideas. Also in his ability to suggest a lot with very simple ideas. He could create an interesting part that would be easy to play and VERY clever, but a "better" musician would try to come up with something to impress his friends. This approach rarely serves the song. Prince always served the song.

Prince was about the complete picture. Live he could show off, but he was very economical in the studio because he was trying to get the song out and be fast.

I had a lot of friends in jazz school who thought there was nothing special about Prince no matter how many albums I played them because his singing is the only impressive thing about his records from a musician standpoint. When I played live video/audio or convinced them to see him live THEN they understood and became lifelong fans. Musicians listen to music differently than non-musicians and they can place a lot of value on things that normal folks don't even hear. Prince was interested in reaching the masses. That's a thing he would not have been able to do had he wandered into fusion or prog rock. He wanted asses dancing and dollars rolling in. Having said that, he would ALWAYS sneak something in a track to show the musicians he knew what was up, but sometimes even a musician would have to listen pretty hard to find it.

Was Prince the best musician? No. Not even close. Would I rather listen to Prince play something simple than listen to the greats show off? Yes. Every time.

How do your buddies feel about opera?

Here is Miles' son Erin speaking on Purple Rain (Miles had Erin learn 1999, the album): Clip | Miles Davis Loved ... - YouTube

.

There are many who don't find anything special about much of jazz - not everyone is Miles Davis or Duke Ellington.

.

Prince came to Owen Husney playing 20 minute songs, and Owen told him to write nursery rhymes. Seems to have worked out in the end, your taste is simple music for the masses. Which greats do you find to be showing off?

u c Steak my friend,i warned you some of the crazy fanatics will go hard on you. thwere are people who only listen to Prince

thebanishedone said:

MoodyBlumes said:

Downloaded them this morning did you... well good on you. Now you can head to the jazz forums and start threads about how overrated Chick is because he can't play Rachmaninoff for beans. But don't forget to mention that you've loved Chick from childhood and he is your fav.

this morning? man i don't know if you ever listened to that band but the band is amazing and i love them since my childhood and believe it or not a lot of people love Return To Forever.

Who told you Chic can't play Rachmaninoff?

Who the funk you think u are 2 tell me what to do?Just because you are depressed about your sad life and your sad looks it don't mean you should b a jerk.but it's up to you.all i can say is i see you have nothing to debate,nothing to offer except your petty provocation.so this is my last ever response to you on Prince .org. Vaya Con Dios

[Edited 4/15/21 2:22am]

You have loved Return to Forever since childhood, but don't post on any jazz forum -- here on this forum day and night, and Prince facebooks -- spearheading threads about Prince being overrated and below average. Who the funk do you think you are? Jerk, sad life, petty provocation... indeed.

[Edited 4/15/21 4:18am]