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Reply #90 posted 04/06/21 8:00pm

LoveGalore

Prince occupied the space in his music unlike most other artists to ever even exist. Of course I'm biased, I wouldn't be here on the org if I wasn't. But the color and space and "feel" as others have mentioned were extremely moving for me. So do I overrate him as a musician? No way. He saved my life with some of that decidedly nontechnical musicianship. He wasn't the best lyricist either but I still vibe with it more than any other lyricist by sheer volume if not singular intensity.

I don't buy that "we" overrated anyone. I think your mileage may vary. And, objectively speaking, the amount of reverence he receives from a broad spectrum suggest that there is something to his particular brand of expression.
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Reply #91 posted 04/06/21 8:23pm

soladeo1

Prince was very good across a lot of things musically but his sense of rhythm and vocal arrangements were truly god-like.
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Reply #92 posted 04/07/21 5:46am

margi

thebanishedone said:

I was one of the most annoying orgers making countless threads about how great Prince is on guitar.I thought those who don't share my view just don't get it.but things change and as i started paying more attention to some more proficient musicians i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician is way too overrated.i see people saying :imagine Prince and Herbie Hancock playing together or i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar.Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good.Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever.Prince is a good rhythm guitar player but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow.his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed.I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards. [Edited 4/3/21 17:23pm]

He doesn't need your kind of love, so go away and you need not return.

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Reply #93 posted 04/07/21 6:19am

thebanishedone

margi said:




thebanishedone said:


I was one of the most annoying orgers making countless threads about how great Prince is on guitar.I thought those who don't share my view just don't get it.but things change and as i started paying more attention to some more proficient musicians i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician is way too overrated.i see people saying :imagine Prince and Herbie Hancock playing together or i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar.Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good.Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever.Prince is a good rhythm guitar player but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow.his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed.I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards. [Edited 4/3/21 17:23pm]

He doesn't need your kind of love, so go away and you need not return.


I've been on org for 20 years.u go away. Newbie smile
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Reply #94 posted 04/07/21 12:52pm

bergowitz

avatar

What is it to be a good musician? Being technically proficient? Knowing every chord, scale or mode? Being able to play at speed? Know every song, technique or play in each and every style?

Judged against that then Prince was not probably not that great; judged by that standard there are probably thousands of musicians who are ‘better’ than Prince.

There is another way to consider it - could Prince convey through his musical ability, his musicianship, what he wanted to express? I would say ‘yes’ and he did it probably better than anyone else who has ever lived.

I am a guitar player and could be called ‘proficient’ - but I’ve never felt that I am consistently expressing myself - it is more an approximation of that through the filter of all the licks, techniques and phrases that I have picked up over the years. If I was told to solo on something like Let's Go Crazy I would just whip out the same old tired guitar tricks really really fast. Prince’s version is only a few notes, something so simple, but it is perfect for communicating the feeling he wants to give to the listener - not many can do that.

RIP


i wish i had a river so long, i would teach my feet to fly away
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Reply #95 posted 04/07/21 12:56pm

thebanishedone

bergowitz said:

What is it to be a good musician? Being technically proficient? Knowing every chord, scale or mode? Being able to play at speed? Know every song, technique or play in each and every style?

Judged against that then Prince was not probably not that great; judged by that standard there are probably thousands of musicians who are ‘better’ than Prince.

There is another way to consider it - could Prince convey through his musical ability, his musicianship, what he wanted to express? I would say ‘yes’ and he did it probably better than anyone else who has ever lived.

I am a guitar player and could be called ‘proficient’ - but I’ve never felt that I am consistently expressing myself - it is more an approximation of that through the filter of all the licks, techniques and phrases that I have picked up over the years. If I was told to solo on something like Let's Go Crazy I would just whip out the same old tired guitar tricks really really fast. Prince’s version is only a few notes, something so simple, but it is perfect for communicating the feeling he wants to give to the listener - not many can do that.

RIP


love your replay smile i agree

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Reply #96 posted 04/07/21 2:21pm

jdcxc

bergowitz said:

What is it to be a good musician? Being technically proficient? Knowing every chord, scale or mode? Being able to play at speed? Know every song, technique or play in each and every style?

Judged against that then Prince was not probably not that great; judged by that standard there are probably thousands of musicians who are ‘better’ than Prince.

There is another way to consider it - could Prince convey through his musical ability, his musicianship, what he wanted to express? I would say ‘yes’ and he did it probably better than anyone else who has ever lived.

I am a guitar player and could be called ‘proficient’ - but I’ve never felt that I am consistently expressing myself - it is more an approximation of that through the filter of all the licks, techniques and phrases that I have picked up over the years. If I was told to solo on something like Let's Go Crazy I would just whip out the same old tired guitar tricks really really fast. Prince’s version is only a few notes, something so simple, but it is perfect for communicating the feeling he wants to give to the listener - not many can do that.

RIP


Good Points...I was recently listening to Youtube's great guitar mimic Jason Read. As he was teaching Prince's Just My Imagination he stated, "I cant play this exactly like Prince because he was a GENIUS with GREAT FEEL." I also remember an interview with Miles Davis' son who said that when he was learning drums his father told him just listen to Prince's drums.

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Reply #97 posted 04/07/21 2:31pm

bonatoc

avatar

thebanishedone said:

I was one of the most annoying orgers making countless threads about how great Prince is on guitar.I thought those who don't share my view just don't get it.but things change and as i started paying more attention to some more proficient musicians i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician is way too overrated.i see people saying :imagine Prince and Herbie Hancock playing together or i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar.Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good.Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever.Prince is a good rhythm guitar player but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow.his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed.I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards. [Edited 4/3/21 17:23pm]


Okay, so let's slice the pudding,
since we're supposed to strain our eyes
at your absence of return carriages.

But since I put them everywhere,
what can I say, when you have a mania...


I was one of the most annoying orgers
making countless threads about
how great Prince is on guitar.

Those were the days.
OK, so you were annoying.
You kinda still is.



I thought those who don't share my view
just don't get it.

Ahhh, yes. Adolescence can hurt that way.
Anyway, what were your views on "how great Prince is on guitar"?



but things change...
Easy with the truisms, Trudy...



but things change and as i started paying more attention
to some more proficient musicians
i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician
is way too overrated.
This is your constitutional right.



i see people saying :imagine Prince and
Herbie Hancock playing together

Yuck.



i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar"
I agree, preposterous!
It's "days", plural!



Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music
but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good
OK, here's your wrong angle:"outside of pop".
Prince never pretended to do anything other than Popular Music.

His Jazz was a popular music translation form.
His Montreux concerts ain't about some wankers quartets with ten minutes solos each.

I appreciate Jazz, but it's for proper clubs with the right musicians, fuck Jazz festivals, boring shit.
Prince's aftershow or the whole Musicology Tour never pretended to be jazz,
but Jazz-tainted. Like "Parade", except this time it was Big Band arrangements.
Madhouse is not an "attempt", this is Skipper making collages, and they're phenomenal.

Prince's heavy metal was his vision of it,
his Blues was his popular music translation of it, etc.

Only his Gospel stayed pretty pure (lots of synth and heavy guitars here and there,
the Bob Dylan, or was it Lennon, sound treatment, but the basics weren't translated).
Right from the start, actually, you could tell Gospel was his natural thing.

Now concerning your "was far from good",
you could have gone with "not good" now don't you.

But you're here to pick up a fight, right?
Funny how you say "was" instead of "is".

Shall I continue?



Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx
And you should know, your typing competes in the same category.



compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever
Who? A pair of confidential bands,
with a miniscule confidential hit here and there,
that fill decent venues and can somewhat play live
(when they're not high as fuck),
dating 50 years ago?

Is that you Granpa?
It's way past your bedtime!



Prince is a good rhythm guitar player
Granpa... Not again... We've been through this.
Prince is the best rhythm guitar player in Pop, Period.
All session musicians across genres and the world
can kiss his Wonderful Ass, m’kay?



but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow
OK, Granpa. It's not funny anymore.
Come on, it's late, let's go to bed.



his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed
What did the doctor say?
Remember what you promised the doctor?



I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards.
You promised the doctor you wouldn't listen to those bad records anymore.
They get you all worked up. They're no good for you.
Come on now, it's time for your herbal tea.




[Edited 4/7/21 15:02pm]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #98 posted 04/07/21 3:45pm

thebanishedone

bonatoc said:

thebanishedone said:

I was one of the most annoying orgers making countless threads about how great Prince is on guitar.I thought those who don't share my view just don't get it.but things change and as i started paying more attention to some more proficient musicians i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician is way too overrated.i see people saying :imagine Prince and Herbie Hancock playing together or i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar.Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good.Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever.Prince is a good rhythm guitar player but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow.his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed.I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards. [Edited 4/3/21 17:23pm]


Okay, so let's slice the pudding,
since we're supposed to strain our eyes
at your absence of return carriages.

But since I put them everywhere,
what can I say, when you have a mania...


I was one of the most annoying orgers
making countless threads about
how great Prince is on guitar.

Those were the days.
OK, so you were annoying.
You kinda still is.



I thought those who don't share my view
just don't get it.

Ahhh, yes. Adolescence can hurt that way.
Anyway, what were your views on "how great Prince is on guitar"?



but things change...
Easy with the truisms, Trudy...



but things change and as i started paying more attention
to some more proficient musicians
i came to a realisation that Prince as a musician
is way too overrated.
This is your constitutional right.



i see people saying :imagine Prince and
Herbie Hancock playing together

Yuck.



i see a topic here "the day Prince changed the world of electric guitar"
I agree, preposterous!
It's "days", plural!



Prince did push the envelope in the realm of pop music
but every attempt he did outside of pop wss far from good
OK, here's your wrong angle:"outside of pop".
Prince never pretended to do anything other than Popular Music.

His Jazz was a popular music translation form.
His Montreux concerts ain't about some wankers quartets with ten minutes solos each.

I appreciate Jazz, but it's for proper clubs with the right musicians, fuck Jazz festivals, boring shit.
Prince's aftershow or the whole Musicology Tour never pretended to be jazz,
but Jazz-tainted. Like "Parade", except this time it was Big Band arrangements.
Madhouse is not an "attempt", this is Skipper making collages, and they're phenomenal.

Prince's heavy metal was his vision of it,
his Blues was his popular music translation of it, etc.

Only his Gospel stayed pretty pure (lots of synth and heavy guitars here and there,
the Bob Dylan, or was it Lennon, sound treatment, but the basics weren't translated).
Right from the start, actually, you could tell Gospel was his natural thing.

Now concerning your "was far from good",
you could have gone with "not good" now don't you.

But you're here to pick up a fight, right?
Funny how you say "was" instead of "is".

Shall I continue?



Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx
And you should know, your typing competes in the same category.



compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever
Who? A pair of confidential bands,
with a miniscule confidential hit here and there,
that fill decent venues and can somewhat play live
(when they're not high as fuck),
dating 50 years ago?

Is that you Granpa?
It's way past your bedtime!



Prince is a good rhythm guitar player
Granpa... Not again... We've been through this.
Prince is the best rhythm guitar player in Pop, Period.
All session musicians across genres and the world
can kiss his Wonderful Ass, m’kay?



but as a soloist his playing is average or even bellow
OK, Granpa. It's not funny anymore.
Come on, it's late, let's go to bed.



his piano playing is overhyped and in reality i"ve seen him playing live piano parts that wete under rehearsed
What did the doctor say?
Remember what you promised the doctor?



I love Prince and his music but it's hard for me to pretend that he is amazing on guitar bass piano and drums when he is just average even to pop music standards.
You promised the doctor you wouldn't listen to those bad records anymore.
They get you all worked up. They're no good for you.
Come on now, it's time for your herbal tea.




[Edited 4/7/21 15:02pm]

First what is funny is u calling me grandpa and i'm maybe younger than you are. Second thig is i've seen your comments in the past on various subjects and it always seemed mendering and non sensical so why would this be your first time to write anything with any sense.And the funiest thing is you are trying to showcase how smart you are by insulting me just because i basicly said Hey i love Prince he is one of my favourite guitar players but he ain't the best. I never said Prince sucks i said people overrate him alot ALOT .i've just seen a comment that Prince been to places in music nobody ever been b4 him. Anyway i wasted 2 much of my time dedicating to a prankster like u.And you should check some other people comments here,you know some of the orgers are actually able to discuss. p.s. I've seen on facebook how you look so i totally understand your biterness.i'm sorry bro smile

[Edited 4/7/21 15:52pm]

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Reply #99 posted 04/07/21 4:05pm

thebanishedone

For those who have problem figuring what i wanted to say with this topic let me simplify.

Prince was one of th best in pop music but "he didn't go where nobody went in music.I made it because there are people who think that Prince was a guy who could sit with a jazz band or maybe conduct classical orchestra,you know being able to do anything in music.

but that was not the case.Prince was great in his idiom and that was Prince being Prince,he expended musical soundscapes in terms of sound but he didn't wow the world with his virtuosity.And nobody said he needed to be a virtuoso cause virtuoso don't mean being a good composer for example .

So Prince was great inside his own limitations and we all have limitations,even Prince.those of you who think that Prince's musical abilities are limitless i can only say that is a very unrealistic way of thinking.And some of the fellow orgers who insulted me including the weird french guy are just being delusional,you know the type "hey Prince can't do no wrong smirk smirk,(sound of tears) with a replay and he played 36 instruments on his first album and he is amazing horn player but he choose not to play it .lol biggrin

[Edited 4/7/21 16:06pm]

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Reply #100 posted 04/07/21 4:32pm

bonatoc

avatar

thebanishedone said:

For those who have problem figuring what i wanted to say with this topic let me simplify.

Prince was one of th best in pop music but "he didn't go where nobody went in music.I made it because there are people who think that Prince was a guy who could sit with a jazz band or maybe conduct classical orchestra,you know being able to do anything in music.


but that was not the case.Prince was great in his idiom and that was Prince being Prince,he expended musical soundscapes in terms of sound but he didn't wow the world with his virtuosity.

And nobody said he needed to be a virtuoso cause virtuoso don't mean being a good composer for example .

So Prince was great inside his own limitations and we all have limitations,even Prince.

those of you who think that Prince's musical abilities are limitless i can only say that is a very unrealistic way of thinking.

And some of the fellow orgers who insulted me including the weird french guy are just being delusional,you know the type "hey Prince can't do no wrong smirk smirk,(sound of tears) with a replay and he played 36 instruments on his first album and he is amazing horn player but he choose not to play it .lol biggrin

[Edited 4/7/21 16:06pm]


Yet you bring to the table the Mahavishnu Orchestra, I mean, come on.
Can't stand a joke without going through my closet,
bet yo ass I'm older than you, what are you, fourteen?

So, back to your 70's had-their-time band name-dropping fallacy...


According to the general definition of "virtuosity", Thank God
Prince got past his virtuosity and went for soul instead.

You get Steve Vai, Malmsteem, boring scale and FX verbosity,
they're not about rock'n'roll and its excesses, and it's part of it.
Prince, alas for the dodecaphonic aficionados, is also a rock star.


His art is based on the popular song.
You get verses and choruses, even in his instrumentals.
There are intros, most of the time a real ending
(by the end of his career, there are no more shuns),
a solo, background vocals, an ad lib.

Prince is not Stockhausen, thank God.
Nor Hancock, thank Cock.


Musical genres have limitations by definition.
There's a crossover point you can't get past,
where it ceases to be Funk, it ceases to be Punk.
The ear needs its clichés, its memories.

It's fair to say Prince went everywhere and nowhere.
Some would have loved hearing him having more meaningful collaborations.
But his head was as big as Miles.

I don't know why you pay attention to people who think Prince is God, or Gold, Dude.
That's a theory, and if it's not yours, step aside and make a way for those who want to go.
They got visions from him, they have this hallucinatory way of experiencing him,
and they you come à la Party Poo lecturing about "Forever — Episode VI - The Return".
They won't get your references, won't bother listen to them.

I choose to look at Prince's "Everywhere",
the whole library. It's a massive amount
of audio notebooks, Some stuff could
boggle your mind, but I'll be assuming
you're the kind who goes deep into Skipper's stuff
and knows his subject quite well.
Otherwise you would be making statements
of an ignorant person. And you don't want that.


If you're a musicologist,
that doesn't make you a songwriter.

Oh, and about bitterness, Pal?
U musta confused with Ur avatar.
U R disillusioned, aren't U?



Damn, here we go again:
Not The 27 instruments promotional trick rant again, Granpa
(that ain't no insult to me, you paranoid stalker).


PS: I didn't know there were people who listened to people pretending Prince was a horn player,
but why don't you go lecture them instead?
Maybe you minsunderstood them? Because Prince was actually
one of the best horn parts writer ever, and will be for quite some time.
Just because they are played by synths doesn't mean they're not horn parts.

But they must have meant the other thing.
Prince on the saxophone.
Why don't you go stalk them instead.





[Edited 4/7/21 16:59pm]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #101 posted 04/07/21 4:59pm

thebanishedone

bonatoc said:

thebanishedone said:

For those who have problem figuring what i wanted to say with this topic let me simplify.

Prince was one of th best in pop music but "he didn't go where nobody went in music.I made it because there are people who think that Prince was a guy who could sit with a jazz band or maybe conduct classical orchestra,you know being able to do anything in music.


but that was not the case.Prince was great in his idiom and that was Prince being Prince,he expended musical soundscapes in terms of sound but he didn't wow the world with his virtuosity.

And nobody said he needed to be a virtuoso cause virtuoso don't mean being a good composer for example .

So Prince was great inside his own limitations and we all have limitations,even Prince.

those of you who think that Prince's musical abilities are limitless i can only say that is a very unrealistic way of thinking.

And some of the fellow orgers who insulted me including the weird french guy are just being delusional,you know the type "hey Prince can't do no wrong smirk smirk,(sound of tears) with a replay and he played 36 instruments on his first album and he is amazing horn player but he choose not to play it .lol biggrin

[Edited 4/7/21 16:06pm]


Yet you bring to the table the Mahavishnu Orchestra, I mean, come on.
Can't stand a joke without going through my closet,
bet yo ass I'm older than you, what are you, fourteen?

So, back to your 70's had-their-time band name-dropping fallacy...


According to the general definition of "virtuosity", Thank God
Prince got past his virtuosity and went for soul instead.

You get Steve Vai, Malmsteem, but they usually and for the most part
forget about rock'n'roll and its excesses, and it's part of it.
Prince, alas for the dodecaphonic aficionados, is also a rock star.


His art is based on the popular song.
You get verses and choruses, even in his instrumentals.
There are intros, most of the time a real ending
(by the end of his career, there are no more shuns),
a solo, background vocals, an ad lib.

Prince is not Stockhausen, thank God.
Nor Hancock, thank Cock.


Musical genres have limitations by definition.
There's a crossover point you can't get past,
where it ceases to be Funk, it ceases to be Punk.
The ear needs its clichés, its memories.

It's fair to say Prince went everywhere and nowhere.
Some would have loved hearing him having more meaningful collaborations.
But his head was as big as Miles.

I don't know why you pay attention to people who think Prince is God, or Gold, Dude.
That's a theory, and if it's not yours, step aside and make a way for those who want to go.
They got visions from him, they have this hallucinatory way of experiencing him,
and they you come à la Party Poo lecturing about "Forever — Episode VI - The Return".
They won't get your references, won't bother listen to them.

I choose to look at Prince's "Everywhere",
the whole library. It's a massive amount
of audio notebooks, Some stuff could
boggle your mind, but I'll be assuming
you're the kind who goes deep into Skipper's stuff
and knows his subject quite well.
Otherwise you would be making statements
of an ignorant person. And you don't want that.


If you're a musicologist,
that doesn't make you a songwriter.

Oh, and about bitterness, Pal?
U musta confused with Ur avatar.
U R disillusioned, aren't U?



Damn, here we go again:
Not The 27 instruments promotional trick rant again, Granpa
(and that's no insult to me, you paranoid stalker)!


PS: I didn't know there were people who listened to people pretending Prince was a horn player,
but why don't you go lecture them instead?
Maybe you minsunderstood them? Because Prince was actually
one of the best horn parts writer ever, and will be for quite some time.
Just because they are played by synths doesn't mean they're not horn parts.

But they must have meant the other thing.
Prince on the saxophone.
Why don't you go stalk them instead.





[Edited 4/7/21 16:55pm]

i pay attention because those crazy people are everywhere and they are ready to kill for Prince lol.synth horns are horns,but i'm not talking about that. there are people who go as far as claiming that Prince is great sax player but he choose not to record his horn parts and when you mention to them that those 30 instruments on the first album are just 4 but with cvariations ,they can't proccess smile What you have against Herbie? Headhunters are some of the funkiest music out there

[Edited 4/7/21 17:04pm]

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Reply #102 posted 04/07/21 5:00pm

bonatoc

avatar

Nothing against Herbie, please.
Or any talented musician, amateur or pro.

I admire your holy mission to right the wrong,
but I'm not sure there's a pandemic of people
pretending Prince could play the bassoon ou la vielle à roue.



[Edited 4/7/21 17:15pm]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #103 posted 04/07/21 5:12pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

The thing is, opinions are like sandwiches. Everybody wants one, and they come in all different flavors.

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Reply #104 posted 04/07/21 5:47pm

bonatoc

avatar

fortuneandserendipity said:

The thing is, opinions are like sandwiches. Everybody wants one, and they come in all different flavors.


Please, not this truism again.

For starters, not everyone wants or needs opinions.
Prince certainly didn't went for them, and that makes a big difference.

There are different flavors, yes, but then there's consensus.
Humans convene that one particular shit
is much worth archiving or deserves to be kept in current culture,
than an other. That's what consensus is about:
the regrouping of enough informed ("educated" sounds segregational, but alas, it is what it is)
opinions agreeing on the value of a work.

But what makes a global consensus (MJ, that poor black sheep)
different from another (Prince)?

Culture. Taste.
Craft.

You can have a Subway™ every day,
and base your taste on it, you'll never know you're eating subpar.
Great chefs make sandwiches as well.

The more sandwiches you eat here and there,
the more you can discern the crap you thought was sublime
in the beginning from the real deal. It's the only way.

Hey, you might even be served the real deal
early on in life. Good Charms do exist.
But you can't know if you've been served the real deal
until you know what shit tastes like.

In "discussion" or "sharing of opinions",
no one gets in with their résumé attached.
No one knows how many you shit ate before truly knowing it.
Or if you're still stucked with same old thinking it's gold.

I don't know why thehamishedone is closing himself
the more records he listens to, but it makes no sense to me.
I listen to a lot of musicians too, but there's no point in competition,
the moment a musician tries to sound like Prince, it sounds like an imitation.

You can't even claim "inspiration" about Prince.
Even Prince-inspired songs scream "Prince",
and Jam & Lewis’ fortune is mostly based on it.

Jam & Lewis became what Prince would have been if he had
thought about business first, and just milked
the 1999/PR Minneapolis sound to death, with enough
à la page production updates to keep it interesting.

Many successful sandwiches are great imitations of an original recipe.
A lot of sandwiches are bland, or plain suck.
They can't be all craft.


Man, the more I listen to Skipper,
the more I love him.

C'm'on, thetarnishedone,
get a hold on yourself.
Hold on to the brilliance.


Some Chefs get fed up with sandwiches,
they move to other cuisines and are able retain their personality.
They're called artists in their ability to cover their domain of expression.


[Edited 4/7/21 18:22pm]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #105 posted 04/07/21 6:33pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

If I had to say did we overrate Prince the musician I'd say no more like we overwrote Prince the musician or did we overeat?
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Reply #106 posted 04/07/21 6:37pm

thebanishedone

bonatoc said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

The thing is, opinions are like sandwiches. Everybody wants one, and they come in all different flavors.


Please, not this truism again.

For starters, not everyone wants or needs opinions.
Prince certainly didn't went for them, and that makes a big difference.

There are different flavors, yes, but then there's consensus.
Humans convene that one particular shit
is much worth archiving or deserves to be kept in current culture,
than an other. That's what consensus is about:
the regrouping of enough informed ("educated" sounds segregational, but alas, it is what it is)
opinions agreeing on the value of a work.

But what makes a global consensus (MJ, that poor black sheep)
different from another (Prince)?

Culture. Taste.
Craft.

You can have a Subway™ every day,
and base your taste on it, you'll never know you're eating subpar.
Great chefs make sandwiches as well.

The more sandwiches you eat here and there,
the more you can discern the crap you thought was sublime
in the beginning from the real deal. It's the only way.

Hey, you might even be served the real deal
early on in life. Good Charms do exist.
But you can't know if you've been served the real deal
until you know what shit tastes like.

In "discussion" or "sharing of opinions",
no one gets in with their résumé attached.
No one knows how many you shit ate before truly knowing it.
Or if you're still stucked with same old thinking it's gold.

I don't know why thehamishedone is closing himself
the more records he listens to, but it makes no sense to me.
I listen to a lot of musicians too, but there's no point in competition,
the moment a musician tries to sound like Prince, it sounds like an imitation.

You can't even claim "inspiration" about Prince.
Even Prince-inspired songs scream "Prince",
and Jam & Lewis’ fortune is mostly based on it.

Jam & Lewis became what Prince would have been if he had
thought about business first, and just milked
the 1999/PR Minneapolis sound to death, with enough
à la page production updates to keep it interesting.

Many successful sandwiches are great imitations of an original recipe.
A lot of sandwiches are bland, or plain suck.
They can't be all craft.


Man, the more I listen to Skipper,
the more I love him.

C'm'on, thetarnishedone,
get a hold on yourself.
Hold on to the brilliance.


Some Chefs get fed up with sandwiches,
they move to other cuisines and are able retain their personality.
They're called artists in their ability to cover their domain of expression.


[Edited 4/7/21 18:22pm]

whatever u smoke,i want some smile

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #107 posted 04/07/21 6:57pm

Margot

Just a reminder...Prince can be over-idealized by some which makes conversation that is not worshipful risky.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #108 posted 04/07/21 7:18pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

bonatoc said:



thebanishedone said:


For those who have problem figuring what i wanted to say with this topic let me simplify.


Prince was one of th best in pop music but "he didn't go where nobody went in music.I made it because there are people who think that Prince was a guy who could sit with a jazz band or maybe conduct classical orchestra,you know being able to do anything in music.



but that was not the case.Prince was great in his idiom and that was Prince being Prince,he expended musical soundscapes in terms of sound but he didn't wow the world with his virtuosity.

And nobody said he needed to be a virtuoso cause virtuoso don't mean being a good composer for example .


So Prince was great inside his own limitations and we all have limitations,even Prince.

those of you who think that Prince's musical abilities are limitless i can only say that is a very unrealistic way of thinking.

And some of the fellow orgers who insulted me including the weird french guy are just being delusional,you know the type "hey Prince can't do no wrong smirk smirk,(sound of tears) with a replay and he played 36 instruments on his first album and he is amazing horn player but he choose not to play it .lol biggrin


[Edited 4/7/21 16:06pm]




Yet you bring to the table the Mahavishnu Orchestra, I mean, come on.
Can't stand a joke without going through my closet,
bet yo ass I'm older than you, what are you, fourteen?

So, back to your 70's had-their-time band name-dropping fallacy...


According to the general definition of "virtuosity", Thank God
Prince got past his virtuosity and went for soul instead.

You get Steve Vai, Malmsteem, boring scale and FX verbosity,
they're not about rock'n'roll and its excesses, and it's part of it.
Prince, alas for the dodecaphonic aficionados, is also a rock star.


His art is based on the popular song.
You get verses and choruses, even in his instrumentals.
There are intros, most of the time a real ending
(by the end of his career, there are no more shuns),
a solo, background vocals, an ad lib.

Prince is not Stockhausen, thank God.
Nor Hancock, thank Cock.


Musical genres have limitations by definition.
There's a crossover point you can't get past,
where it ceases to be Funk, it ceases to be Punk.
The ear needs its clichés, its memories.

It's fair to say Prince went everywhere and nowhere.
Some would have loved hearing him having more meaningful collaborations.
But his head was as big as Miles.

I don't know why you pay attention to people who think Prince is God, or Gold, Dude.
That's a theory, and if it's not yours, step aside and make a way for those who want to go.
They got visions from him, they have this hallucinatory way of experiencing him,
and they you come à la Party Poo lecturing about "Forever — Episode VI - The Return".
They won't get your references, won't bother listen to them.

I choose to look at Prince's "Everywhere",
the whole library. It's a massive amount
of audio notebooks, Some stuff could
boggle your mind, but I'll be assuming
you're the kind who goes deep into Skipper's stuff
and knows his subject quite well.
Otherwise you would be making statements
of an ignorant person. And you don't want that.


If you're a musicologist,
that doesn't make you a songwriter.

Oh, and about bitterness, Pal?
U musta confused with Ur avatar.
U R disillusioned, aren't U?



Damn, here we go again:
Not The 27 instruments promotional trick rant again, Granpa
(that ain't no insult to me, you paranoid stalker).


PS: I didn't know there were people who listened to people pretending Prince was a horn player,
but why don't you go lecture them instead?
Maybe you minsunderstood them? Because Prince was actually
one of the best horn parts writer ever, and will be for quite some time.
Just because they are played by synths doesn't mean they're not horn parts.

But they must have meant the other thing.
Prince on the saxophone.
Why don't you go stalk them instead.







quote: "[Edited 4/7/21 16:59pm]"
"
LOL

My response to every response in this thread is "quote"
especially Margo's lol
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #109 posted 04/07/21 7:20pm

thebanishedone

Margot said:

Just a reminder...Prince can be over-idealized by some which makes conversation that is not worshipful risky.


A great point.examples u already had a few.people who will insult just because u say hey Prince is very good on guitar but he is not the best.there r others
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Reply #110 posted 04/07/21 8:09pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

thebanishedone said:

Margot said:

Just a reminder...Prince can be over-idealized by some which makes conversation that is not worshipful risky.


A great point.examples u already had a few.people who will insult just because u say hey Prince is very good on guitar but he is not the best.there r others


if you're not going to supply the guitars be quiet. supply me with one and I'll show you somebody good on guitar. shoot i might have to go grab a ukulele for $10 just to start.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #111 posted 04/07/21 8:28pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

bonatoc said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

The thing is, opinions are like sandwiches. Everybody wants one, and they come in all different flavors.


Please, not this truism again.

For starters, not everyone wants or needs opinions.
Prince certainly didn't went for them, and that makes a big difference.

There are different flavors, yes, but then there's consensus.
Humans convene that one particular shit
is much worth archiving or deserves to be kept in current culture,
than an other. That's what consensus is about:
the regrouping of enough informed ("educated" sounds segregational, but alas, it is what it is)
opinions agreeing on the value of a work.

But what makes a global consensus (MJ, that poor black sheep)
different from another (Prince)?

Culture. Taste.
Craft.

You can have a Subway™ every day,

and base your taste on it, you'll never know you're eating subpar.
Great chefs make sandwiches as well.

The more sandwiches you eat here and there,
the more you can discern the crap you thought was sublime
in the beginning from the real deal. It's the only way.

Hey, you might even be served the real deal
early on in life. Good Charms do exist.
But you can't know if you've been served the real deal
until you know what shit tastes like.

In "discussion" or "sharing of opinions",
no one gets in with their résumé attached.
No one knows how many you shit ate before truly knowing it.
Or if you're still stucked with same old thinking it's gold.

I don't know why thehamishedone is closing himself
the more records he listens to, but it makes no sense to me.
I listen to a lot of musicians too, but there's no point in competition,
the moment a musician tries to sound like Prince, it sounds like an imitation.

You can't even claim "inspiration" about Prince.
Even Prince-inspired songs scream "Prince",
and Jam & Lewis’ fortune is mostly based on it.

Jam & Lewis became what Prince would have been if he had
thought about business first, and just milked
the 1999/PR Minneapolis sound to death, with enough
à la page production updates to keep it interesting.

Many successful sandwiches are great imitations of an original recipe.
A lot of sandwiches are bland, or plain suck.
They can't be all craft.


Man, the more I listen to Skipper,
the more I love him.

C'm'on, thetarnishedone,
get a hold on yourself.
Hold on to the brilliance.


Some Chefs get fed up with sandwiches,
they move to other cuisines and are able retain their personality.
They're called artists in their ability to cover their domain of expression.


[Edited 4/7/21 18:22pm]


You can indeed. I was in Subway earlier and after the lady had prepared the sandwich she asked me "Would u like any sauce with that?"


Naturally I obliged, "Yes I would like the sauce of all the entertainment please", while trying to be funny, but without further hesitation she proceeded to add southwest sauce, mustard, sweet onion flavour, tomato ketchup, egg mayonnaise, brown sauce and a couple of others i can’t remember so basically everything got put in and after that i couldn’t taste the filling :/

So the moral of the story is... STOP treating subway as a source of entertainment instead of a restaurant. Nah, just kidding. But hey sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich. It carries no more value or meaning than that.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #112 posted 04/07/21 10:17pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

fortuneandserendipity said:



bonatoc said:




fortuneandserendipity said:


The thing is, opinions are like sandwiches. Everybody wants one, and they come in all different flavors.




Please, not this truism again.

For starters, not everyone wants or needs opinions.
Prince certainly didn't went for them, and that makes a big difference.

There are different flavors, yes, but then there's consensus.
Humans convene that one particular shit
is much worth archiving or deserves to be kept in current culture,
than an other. That's what consensus is about:
the regrouping of enough informed ("educated" sounds segregational, but alas, it is what it is)
opinions agreeing on the value of a work.

But what makes a global consensus (MJ, that poor black sheep)
different from another (Prince)?

Culture. Taste.
Craft.

You can have a Subway™ every day,

and base your taste on it, you'll never know you're eating subpar.
Great chefs make sandwiches as well.

The more sandwiches you eat here and there,
the more you can discern the crap you thought was sublime
in the beginning from the real deal. It's the only way.

Hey, you might even be served the real deal
early on in life. Good Charms do exist.
But you can't know if you've been served the real deal
until you know what shit tastes like.

In "discussion" or "sharing of opinions",
no one gets in with their résumé attached.
No one knows how many you shit ate before truly knowing it.
Or if you're still stucked with same old thinking it's gold.

I don't know why thehamishedone is closing himself
the more records he listens to, but it makes no sense to me.
I listen to a lot of musicians too, but there's no point in competition,
the moment a musician tries to sound like Prince, it sounds like an imitation.

You can't even claim "inspiration" about Prince.
Even Prince-inspired songs scream "Prince",
and Jam & Lewis’ fortune is mostly based on it.

Jam & Lewis became what Prince would have been if he had
thought about business first, and just milked
the 1999/PR Minneapolis sound to death, with enough
à la page production updates to keep it interesting.

Many successful sandwiches are great imitations of an original recipe.
A lot of sandwiches are bland, or plain suck.
They can't be all craft.


Man, the more I listen to Skipper,
the more I love him.

C'm'on, thetarnishedone,
get a hold on yourself.
Hold on to the brilliance.



Some Chefs get fed up with sandwiches,
they move to other cuisines and are able retain their personality.
They're called artists in their ability to cover their domain of expression.






[Edited 4/7/21 18:22pm]




You can indeed. I was in Subway earlier and after the lady had prepared the sandwich she asked me "Would u like any sauce with that?"



Naturally I obliged, "Yes I would like the sauce of all the entertainment please", while trying to be funny, but without further hesitation she proceeded to add southwest sauce, mustard, sweet onion flavour, tomato ketchup, egg mayonnaise, brown sauce and a couple of others i can’t remember so basically everything got put in and after that i couldn’t taste the filling :/

So the moral of the story is... STOP treating subway as a source of entertainment instead of a restaurant. Nah, just kidding. But hey sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich. It carries no more value or meaning than that.




Y'all better start demanding Jimmy John's where you are and quit being all behold the green and gold of the Subway but actually the Cosmo's from Zero's is
another good recommendation followed by anything from Cal'z (of course).

Delicious!
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Reply #113 posted 04/07/21 10:19pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

fortuneandserendipity said:



bonatoc said:




fortuneandserendipity said:


The thing is, opinions are like sandwiches. Everybody wants one, and they come in all different flavors.




Please, not this truism again.

For starters, not everyone wants or needs opinions.
Prince certainly didn't went for them, and that makes a big difference.

There are different flavors, yes, but then there's consensus.
Humans convene that one particular shit
is much worth archiving or deserves to be kept in current culture,
than an other. That's what consensus is about:
the regrouping of enough informed ("educated" sounds segregational, but alas, it is what it is)
opinions agreeing on the value of a work.

But what makes a global consensus (MJ, that poor black sheep)
different from another (Prince)?

Culture. Taste.
Craft.

You can have a Subway™ every day,

and base your taste on it, you'll never know you're eating subpar.
Great chefs make sandwiches as well.

The more sandwiches you eat here and there,
the more you can discern the crap you thought was sublime
in the beginning from the real deal. It's the only way.

Hey, you might even be served the real deal
early on in life. Good Charms do exist.
But you can't know if you've been served the real deal
until you know what shit tastes like.

In "discussion" or "sharing of opinions",
no one gets in with their résumé attached.
No one knows how many you shit ate before truly knowing it.
Or if you're still stucked with same old thinking it's gold.

I don't know why thehamishedone is closing himself
the more records he listens to, but it makes no sense to me.
I listen to a lot of musicians too, but there's no point in competition,
the moment a musician tries to sound like Prince, it sounds like an imitation.

You can't even claim "inspiration" about Prince.
Even Prince-inspired songs scream "Prince",
and Jam & Lewis’ fortune is mostly based on it.

Jam & Lewis became what Prince would have been if he had
thought about business first, and just milked
the 1999/PR Minneapolis sound to death, with enough
à la page production updates to keep it interesting.

Many successful sandwiches are great imitations of an original recipe.
A lot of sandwiches are bland, or plain suck.
They can't be all craft.


Man, the more I listen to Skipper,
the more I love him.

C'm'on, thetarnishedone,
get a hold on yourself.
Hold on to the brilliance.



Some Chefs get fed up with sandwiches,
they move to other cuisines and are able retain their personality.
They're called artists in their ability to cover their domain of expression.






[Edited 4/7/21 18:22pm]




You can indeed. I was in Subway earlier and after the lady had prepared the sandwich she asked me "Would u like any sauce with that?"



Naturally I obliged, "Yes I would like the sauce of all the entertainment please", while trying to be funny, but without further hesitation she proceeded to add southwest sauce, mustard, sweet onion flavour, tomato ketchup, egg mayonnaise, brown sauce and a couple of others i can’t remember so basically everything got put in and after that i couldn’t taste the filling :/

So the moral of the story is... STOP treating subway as a source of entertainment instead of a restaurant. Nah, just kidding. But hey sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich. It carries no more value or meaning than that.




And I apologise for just now realizing what you wrote and that's hilarious and why would you do that to your sandwich have you got extra sandwich money like that?
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Reply #114 posted 04/07/21 10:22pm

heartpeaceshea
rt

There must be a fat boys reunion coming up soon.
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Reply #115 posted 04/07/21 11:22pm

masaba

thebanishedone said:

Margot said:

Just a reminder...Prince can be over-idealized by some which makes conversation that is not worshipful risky.


A great point.examples u already had a few.people who will insult just because u say hey Prince is very good on guitar but he is not the best.there r others

Lol bud your claim was that Prince was an average to below average pop guitarist. Baseless, nonsensical claim that is more or less an insult to somebody we all here obviously like very much.
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Reply #116 posted 04/07/21 11:48pm

thebanishedone

masaba said:

thebanishedone said:


A great point.examples u already had a few.people who will insult just because u say hey Prince is very good on guitar but he is not the best.there r others

Lol bud your claim was that Prince was an average to below average pop guitarist. Baseless, nonsensical claim that is more or less an insult to somebody we all here obviously like very much.
no.my claim is he was very good.if he had more time he would be better
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Reply #117 posted 04/07/21 11:53pm

ForceofNature

thebanishedone said:

Prince's jazz projects are like kindergarden jazx compared to Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return To Forever.

But the thing is, was Prince trying to be Return to Forever or was he trying to do groovy jazzy funk that incorporates some jazzy influences? Prince, for what he wanted to do artistically, had the skills and profieciency to do exactly that. Knowing how to use your abilities for the sounds you want, is to me what being a musician is all about. Not comparing one's self unfavorably to Return to Forever because your songs are in 4/4 and don't feature avante guarde chord progressions

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Reply #118 posted 04/08/21 1:32am

Vannormal

avatar

Margot said:

Just a reminder...Prince can be over-idealized by some which makes conversation that is not worshipful risky.

-

E X A C T L Y

-

Being a (Prince) fan either makes one get stuck or move on.

Then you realizse you'll never get there - knowing it all, understanding it all.

And once you'll get there, you're not a fan anymore.

Indifference in your comments will come over you, which is the best thing that can happen

to any fan, imho.

wink

-

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves.
And wiser people so full of doubts"
(Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #119 posted 04/08/21 3:17am

thebanishedone

masaba said:

thebanishedone said:
A great point.examples u already had a few.people who will insult just because u say hey Prince is very good on guitar but he is not the best.there r others
Lol bud your claim was that Prince was an average to below average pop guitarist. Baseless, nonsensical claim that is more or less an insult to somebody we all here obviously like very much.

u don't know me,ok.Prince is my favourite guitar players since i was a kid.ok? i learned to play a lot of stuff Prince played.if i think he sucks i would never do thAT ok.

Again my point is some of us(Prince fans) have a very unrealistic picture about what Prince could do and where he could go in the world of music.

In order to go somewhere where you haven't been before you need to invest a lot of work.

One day you decide you gonna play more jazzier funk than usual and you just hop on it.

regarding The Return To Forever most of their stuff was actually in 3/4 and after the first 2 albums that were latin jazz ,with the addition of guitar player i think they become a rock band that played with the intellect of jazz musicians.

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