OperatingThetan said:

It may be better if some sort of comprehensive prince.org survey is sent to Mr Howe and the Estate. This thread is pretty self-defeating.

Clearly. The survey should be a write in survey because the ones that are multiple choice leave out a bunch of stuff and are usually biased towards the 80's. The survey should be simple and ask for top 5 wish list for unreleased, live and video material from the vault. There seems to be a consensus about what needs to be released based on the people that did respond. There also appears to be a bunch of people who don't think that fan input matters and who trust the process.

The only thing I would say to Mr. Howe is....

I vote with my wallet. Make these releases count, and I will gladly spend my cash on these.

I took the VIP tour of Paisley Park the day it opened to the public. When we went into the studio one of the guides told us Prince was working on a jazz album when he passed. Was the guide referring to Black is the New Black? Is that jazz or at least jazzy? I realize those guides mostly had no idea what they were talking about, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was off-base on this matter.

lurker316 said:

I took the VIP tour of Paisley Park the day it opened to the public. When we went into the studio one of the guides told us Prince was working on a jazz album when he passed. Was the guide referring to Black is the New Black? Is that jazz or at least jazzy? I realize those guides mostly had no idea what they were talking about, so I wouldn't be surprised if she was off-base on this matter.

It is generally known that Black is the New Black was the jazzy album that he was working on shortly before he passed. What was not known was that a tape of his last recording session days before he died was on the tape reel in Studio A and was not identified and removed until a few weeks before Celebration 2019. That informatin came from his last studio engineer during the VIP tour at the Celebration. He said that the tape was removed from Studio A a few weeks before and it was a jam session. I assume that it was intended for Black is the New Black, but maybe not. He said Adrian was there.

AvocadosMax said:

injuredpinky said:

The only thing I would say to Mr. Howe is....

I vote with my wallet. Make these releases count, and I will gladly spend my cash on these.

With all due respect, unless you tell Mr. Howe what your definition of "counting" is, your statement doesn't help him at all.

I wanna end this letter with three words: We tired y'all.

.

Tired of being tired.

StrangeButTrue said:

klick2me said:

I don't have the time to listen to everything Prince has recorded. Life is too short. There are too many things to do. Even if we're talking about music only, there are other artists I'm listening to or want to listen to.

.

I don't want to listen to everything Prince has recorded. Listening to all the different versions of "We Can Fuck/Funk" is fun, once, maybe even multiple times. Same for stuff recorded in poor sound quality. We have an example on Originals (WYLTLM). Even in the 2010s, Prince was still recording songs in poor sound quality from time to time (Andy Allo's demo of Guitar, That Girl Thang, etc.). I love WYLTLM and I'm glad to have it, but I'm sure the vault is full of badly recorded rehearsals or demos that I wouldn't really enjoy listening to.

.

It's still crucial that everything Prince has recorded is digitized, preserved, and documented, though. Not only for us, but for future generations.

.

What we're talking about here is what should or should not be released, and this is another question entirely. If I were in charge of Prince's archive, I wouldn't decide myself what to release, I wouldn't listen to Prince fans on a forum, I would assemble a team of experts and let them decide. This shouldn't be a democratic process.

.

Me? Between official releases and bootlegs, I'm perfectly fine with what I have already. I don't need another Prince release. But if they release 1-2 albums or sets a year, I want them to be pertinent and intelligent releases.

.

Given the quality of what's still in the vault, I would be fine with 5-10 CD box sets (I enjoyed those Miles Davis box sets from Sony in the 90s/00s a lot, even with their flaws). At least one a year. Possibly two or three. I'm happy with any period. Studio recordings, concerts, rehearsals. Anything. Be consistent. Be intelligent.

.

If the Estate wants to release everything online or release a 300-CD box set, I'm fine with it, too, but I'll need somebody to tell me what's interesting or not.

[Edited 6/15/19 11:22am]

olb99 said:

I don't have the time to listen to everything Prince has recorded. Life is too short. There are too many things to do. Even if we're talking about music only, there are other artists I'm listening to or want to listen to.

.

I don't want to listen to everything Prince has recorded. Listening to all the different versions of "We Can Fuck/Funk" is fun, once, maybe even multiple times. Same for stuff recorded in poor sound quality. We have an example on Originals (WYLTLM). Even in the 2010s, Prince was still recording songs in poor sound quality from time to time (Andy Allo's demo of Guitar, That Girl Thang, etc.). I love WYLTLM and I'm glad to have it, but I'm sure the vault is full of badly recorded rehearsals or demos that I wouldn't really enjoy listening to.

.

It's still crucial that everything Prince has recorded is digitized, preserved, and documented, though. Not only for us, but for future generations.

.

What we're talking about here is what should or should not be released, and this is another question entirely. If I were in charge of Prince's archive, I wouldn't decide myself what to release, I wouldn't listen to Prince fans on a forum, I would assemble a team of experts and let them decide. This shouldn't be a democratic process.

.

Me? Between official releases and bootlegs, I'm perfectly fine with what I have already. I don't need another Prince release. But if they release 1-2 albums or sets a year, I want them to be pertinent and intelligent releases.

.

Given the quality of what's still in the vault, I would be fine with 5-10 CD box sets (I enjoyed those Miles Davis box sets from Sony in the 90s/00s a lot, even with their flaws). At least one a year. Possibly two or three. I'm happy with any period. Studio recordings, concerts, rehearsals. Anything. Be consistent. Be intelligent.

.

If you want to release everything online or release a 300-CD box set, I'm fine with it, too, but I'll need somebody to tell me what's interesting or not.

I pretty much agree with everything you say

databank said:

donnyenglish said:

donnyenglish said:

databank said:

I pretty much agree with everything you say

After 3 years, most of us have not been impressed with much of the work-product of the official “experts.” The only point of this thread is that there are some bona fide Prince experts on this site. I think the Estate and Mr. Howe would be well served by listening to those people.

.

By experts, I essentially meant people such as Duane Tudahl, Per Nilsen, Susan Rogers, etc. But ideally I wouldn't want a single person deciding for me that "Adonis & Bathsheba" is silly and shouldn't be released. (Even if it is...) So I'm against a "pure democracy" (e.g. polling the fans for what to release next), but I would be against a "dictatorial process" as well. Get three Prince experts around a table for a couple of days and ask them to come up with a long-term plan of what to release. This would be imperfect, but it would still be a lot better than what's currently happening.

.

And, yes, there are people on Prince.org that are very knowledgeable, either because they've read books/articles written by experts or because they've been in touch with people who worked for Prince. Are they knowledgeable enough to come up with a serious long-term plan for the Estate? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

.

Example: it was announced three days ago that Rhino/Warner will finally release a Miles Davis album recorded in 1985 ("Rubberband"). Who wrote the liner notes? George Cole, who wrote an entire book about Miles' music in the 80s/90s. That's how it should be done: record labels paying experts to collaborate with them. (Coincidentally, all the tracks on "Rubberband" have been reworked/remixed/altered in some ways in 2018-19, so from an archival/historical standpoint it will be even worse than "Originals"... )

hearing about this last reel of recorded material being removed from a quiet studio is just making me sad again.

rdhull said:

Dear Mr Howe, Whut, Wheare, wye... please dont listen to these dingleberries

but listen to THIS dingleberry???

jfenster said:

rdhull said:

Dear Mr Howe, Whut, Wheare, wye... please dont listen to these dingleberries

but listen to THIS dingleberry???

don't listen to anybody.."There..you like that better?" (c) Wendy

RodeoSchro said:

injuredpinky said:

The only thing I would say to Mr. Howe is....

I vote with my wallet. Make these releases count, and I will gladly spend my cash on these.

With all due respect, unless you tell Mr. Howe what your definition of "counting" is, your statement doesn't help him at all.

Honesty, I want it all. I'm one of those who prefer physical product. I would love to see EACH and EVERY album get a Super Deluxe edition with all the outtakes, demos, alternate versions, false starts, videos, booklets, etc. from those sessions. Or, at least maybe they can bundle up the vault into logical groups of albums (eras).

.

To give an example, a few years ago I purchased Pink Floyd's The Early Years 65-72 box set. Mega bucks with tons of stuff on there, audio, video, flyer reproductions, etc. Not all of it is good, but all of it is wonderful. I am thrilled and grateful to have it and to have heard it. It's a documentation of human achievement in the musical arts. Where they started from and where they got to, and all the detours along the way. And, if they ever release box sets for their other eras, I'll buy those immediately. It's a treasure of one of my all-time favorite groups.

.

Imagine such a documentation for Prince's works. Sure, every artist loves to put their best foot forward, and only release the gems. But, for fans like me, and I know for many of you out there as well, hearing the growth and development of music is not to judge it, but to witness and admire what humans are capable of achieveing. Hearing those unreleased tracks, or imperfect versions, is an endearing exercise that highlights the creativity and (I believe) brings the listener closer to the artist than any greatest-hits collection ever could.

.

That's what I would hope for from Mr. Howe.

[Edited 6/16/19 21:07pm]

injuredpinky said:

RodeoSchro said:

With all due respect, unless you tell Mr. Howe what your definition of "counting" is, your statement doesn't help him at all.

Honesty, I want it all. I'm one of those who prefer physical product. I would love to see EACH and EVERY album get a Super Deluxe edition with all the outtakes, demos, alternate versions, false starts, videos, booklets, etc. from those sessions. Or, at least maybe they can bundle up the vault into logical groups of albums (eras).

.

To give an example, a few years ago I purchased Pink Floyd's The Early Years 65-72 box set. Mega bucks with tons of stuff on there, audio, video, flyer reproductions, etc. Not all of it is good, but all of it is wonderful. I am thrilled and grateful to have it and to have heard it. It's a documentation of human achievement in the musical arts. Where they started from and where they got to, and all the detours along the way. And, if they ever release box sets for their other eras, I'll buy those immediately. It's a treasure of one of my all-time favorite groups.

.

Imagine such a documentation for Prince's works. Sure, every artist loves to put their best foot forward, and only release the gems. But, for fans like me, and I know for many of you out there as well, hearing the growth and development of music is not to judge it, but to witness and admire what humans are capable of achieveing. Hearing those unreleased tracks, or imperfect versions, is an endearing exercise that highlights the creativity and (I believe) brings the listener closer to the artist than any greatest-hits collection ever could.

.

That's what I would hope for from Mr. Howe.

donnyenglish said:

Given our desire to give Mr. Howe and the Estate input, let’s try to send a very focused message on what we want.

.

"We", who?

fabriziovenerandi said:

donnyenglish said:

Given our desire to give Mr. Howe and the Estate input, let’s try to send a very focused message on what we want.

.

"We", who?

The people on here that agree with providing some sort of imput into the whole distribution of the vault...you think Prince wouldn't want that? after all his music was the for the fans - and with no will in place on whats to be done with it, why wouldnt his fans have a say?

Dimitri10 said:

fabriziovenerandi said:

.

"We", who?

The people on here that agree with providing some sort of imput into the whole distribution of the vault...you think Prince wouldn't want that? after all his music was the for the fans - and with no will in place on whats to be done with it, why wouldnt his fans have a say?

.

Because it's hard to have a "big picture" view of everything that the vault contains and to have an intelligent and coherent long-term plan of what to release. I've been a fan since the late 80s and have been collecting bootlegs since then. I've heard pretty much every studio outtake that's circulating. Hundreds of rehearsals and live shows. I consider myself a hardcore fan. Still, I'd rather leave that task (i.e. deciding what to release) to people that have a really deep knowledge of Prince's music. This is serious work.

.

Could I come up with opinions and ideas of what to release? Sure. It would be fun. I could come up with a top 10 of things I'd like to see released in a couple of minutes. But focusing on what the Prince fans want now, by polling them, is short-sighted. This is not how you decide how to release hundreds of hours of unreleased material over the course of 10-20 years.

[Edited 6/17/19 2:41am]

olb99 said:

Dimitri10 said:

The people on here that agree with providing some sort of imput into the whole distribution of the vault...you think Prince wouldn't want that? after all his music was the for the fans - and with no will in place on whats to be done with it, why wouldnt his fans have a say?

.

Because it's hard to have a "big picture" view of everything that the vault contains and to have an intelligent and coherent long-term plan of what to release. I've been a fan since the late 80s and have been collecting bootlegs since then. I've heard pretty much every studio outtake that's circulating. Hundreds of rehearsals and live shows. I consider myself a hardcore fan. Still, I'd rather leave that task (i.e. deciding what to release) to people that have a really deep knowledge of Prince's music. This is serious work.

.

Could I come up with opinions and ideas of what to release? Sure. It would be fun. I could come up with a top 10 of things I'd like to see released in a couple of minutes. But focusing on what the Prince fans want now, by polling them, is short-sighted. This is not how you decide how to release hundreds of hours of unreleased material over the course of 10-20 years.

[Edited 6/17/19 2:41am]

One of the biggest obstacles is indeed our ignorance. When I see (Album X) Deluxe outtakes tracklists here I'm always like, "hey, we don't even know what else is in there, which other versions, etc.". Anyone that would be tasked with such a job would first have to know exactly what's been inventoried, listen to the material, etc.

databank said:

olb99 said:

.

Because it's hard to have a "big picture" view of everything that the vault contains and to have an intelligent and coherent long-term plan of what to release. I've been a fan since the late 80s and have been collecting bootlegs since then. I've heard pretty much every studio outtake that's circulating. Hundreds of rehearsals and live shows. I consider myself a hardcore fan. Still, I'd rather leave that task (i.e. deciding what to release) to people that have a really deep knowledge of Prince's music. This is serious work.

.

Could I come up with opinions and ideas of what to release? Sure. It would be fun. I could come up with a top 10 of things I'd like to see released in a couple of minutes. But focusing on what the Prince fans want now, by polling them, is short-sighted. This is not how you decide how to release hundreds of hours of unreleased material over the course of 10-20 years.

[Edited 6/17/19 2:41am]

One of the biggest obstacles is indeed our ignorance. When I see (Album X) Deluxe outtakes tracklists here I'm always like, "hey, we don't even know what else is in there, which other versions, etc.". Anyone that would be tasked with such a job would first have to know exactly what's been inventoried, listen to the material, etc.

.
YES, that's exactly what I've been saying before. We simply don't know about the MAJORITY of the vault's contents. Neither of us does, and I'm afraid not even Michael Howe does yet as I don't think they've already finished transferring and cataloging the bulk of it. Comprehensive box sets can't (shouldn't) be compiled before knowing all the different songs and versions in existence – and before carefully researching all documentation, notes or references left behind.
.

Kares said:

databank said:

One of the biggest obstacles is indeed our ignorance. When I see (Album X) Deluxe outtakes tracklists here I'm always like, "hey, we don't even know what else is in there, which other versions, etc.". Anyone that would be tasked with such a job would first have to know exactly what's been inventoried, listen to the material, etc.

.
YES, that's exactly what I've been saying before. We simply don't know about the MAJORITY of the vault's contents. Neither of us does, and I'm afraid not even Michael Howe does yet as I don't think they've already finished transferring and cataloging the bulk of it. Comprehensive box sets can't (shouldn't) be compiled before knowing all the different songs and versions in existence – and before carefully researching all documentation, notes or references left behind.
.

In a way I fear commercialization is the worst enemy of P's catalogue being properly handled. This is not new per se: Prince himself was often, IMHO, a prisoner of his success, when I think a lower profile would have allowed him to explore more daring musical territories, typically more NEWS and less Musicology, more The War and less Rave.

.

Today I fear there's simply too much money at stake, lots of tax, Paisley Park Studios, the Prince store, real estate to manage and all sorts of related expenses. The Estate, at least in its current form, must and has to aim at the most profitable releases, i.e. cut the expenses, work with a major label to maximize promotion and distribution, and make sure the product will be mainstream enough. P&AM83 in a way was a little daring, i.e. not necessarily a release for everyone, a more intimate, somewhat more experimental album, but it was also not a risky project because even if it was not for the average Bruno Mars fan, it was sure to be appreciated by critics and older, more mature audiences. Yet, restauration was apparently kept to the minimum to cut expenses

.

I like what Bill Laswell is currently doing: trying to put his hands on as many masters from his back catalogue he can get from the dozens of labels he's worked with in his 40 years long career, and putting the stuff straight on Bandcamp alongside some unreleased projects. No more label interference, let alone majors, just straight to the fans from a independent artists-friendly digital platform.

.

Hopefully at some point we can get something like this: a couple of high profile releases a year on majors for the mainstream audiences, with accessible, easy to sell releases; the occasional huge, super expensive and comprehensive deluxe boxset for those older fans who still fancy physical products; and a straight-to-the fans online store/streaming service handled by the Estate themselves or thru Bandcamp, that allows the Estate to release stuff aimed only at the most hardcore fans for little expense (for example soundchecks and rehearsals, alternate early demos, low profile live shows, etc.), that may even benefit from little restoration to reduce costs but will at least allow the most obstinate fans to get a larger portion of what's in the vault without cannibalizing the mainstream audience and deluxe projects.

.

Now as said before by olb99, I personally have more than enough Prince music to satisfy me until I die, and so many other artists I want to listen to. I would love to have access to everything, but I can live without it. The only thing that bothers me is if the material is posthumously altered, because that's not what I believe is the right thing to do, I think it demeans P's legacy even if the final product is pleasant to hear. Beyond that, well... I don't have high hopes anyway, so we'll see... Now that I have the Flesh sessions, the only thing I really hope I can hear before I die is Madrid 2 Chicago.

injuredpinky said:

RodeoSchro said:

With all due respect, unless you tell Mr. Howe what your definition of "counting" is, your statement doesn't help him at all.

Honesty, I want it all. I'm one of those who prefer physical product. I would love to see EACH and EVERY album get a Super Deluxe edition with all the outtakes, demos, alternate versions, false starts, videos, booklets, etc. from those sessions. Or, at least maybe they can bundle up the vault into logical groups of albums (eras).

.

To give an example, a few years ago I purchased Pink Floyd's The Early Years 65-72 box set. Mega bucks with tons of stuff on there, audio, video, flyer reproductions, etc. Not all of it is good, but all of it is wonderful. I am thrilled and grateful to have it and to have heard it. It's a documentation of human achievement in the musical arts. Where they started from and where they got to, and all the detours along the way. And, if they ever release box sets for their other eras, I'll buy those immediately. It's a treasure of one of my all-time favorite groups.

.

Imagine such a documentation for Prince's works. Sure, every artist loves to put their best foot forward, and only release the gems. But, for fans like me, and I know for many of you out there as well, hearing the growth and development of music is not to judge it, but to witness and admire what humans are capable of achieveing. Hearing those unreleased tracks, or imperfect versions, is an endearing exercise that highlights the creativity and (I believe) brings the listener closer to the artist than any greatest-hits collection ever could.

.

That's what I would hope for from Mr. Howe.

[Edited 6/16/19 21:07pm]

Nice answer, thanks!

I'd like everything too, and I would also prefer it in physical format.

Your part about Pink Floyd for some reason reminded me of the Prince Opus. As I recall, they made just a few and sold even less. I wonder if that has scared the Estate away from mass releases?

RodeoSchro said:

injuredpinky said:

Honesty, I want it all. I'm one of those who prefer physical product. I would love to see EACH and EVERY album get a Super Deluxe edition with all the outtakes, demos, alternate versions, false starts, videos, booklets, etc. from those sessions. Or, at least maybe they can bundle up the vault into logical groups of albums (eras).

.

To give an example, a few years ago I purchased Pink Floyd's The Early Years 65-72 box set. Mega bucks with tons of stuff on there, audio, video, flyer reproductions, etc. Not all of it is good, but all of it is wonderful. I am thrilled and grateful to have it and to have heard it. It's a documentation of human achievement in the musical arts. Where they started from and where they got to, and all the detours along the way. And, if they ever release box sets for their other eras, I'll buy those immediately. It's a treasure of one of my all-time favorite groups.

.

Imagine such a documentation for Prince's works. Sure, every artist loves to put their best foot forward, and only release the gems. But, for fans like me, and I know for many of you out there as well, hearing the growth and development of music is not to judge it, but to witness and admire what humans are capable of achieveing. Hearing those unreleased tracks, or imperfect versions, is an endearing exercise that highlights the creativity and (I believe) brings the listener closer to the artist than any greatest-hits collection ever could.

.

That's what I would hope for from Mr. Howe.

[Edited 6/16/19 21:07pm]

Nice answer, thanks!

I'd like everything too, and I would also prefer it in physical format.

Your part about Pink Floyd for some reason reminded me of the Prince Opus. As I recall, they made just a few and sold even less. I wonder if that has scared the Estate away from mass releases?

Thank you. I truly hope Mr Howe is able to offer options for every type of Prince fan, including completists/archivists like me.

.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Prince Opus item. I view that set as a different beast altogether. While a 200 page picture book detailing a concert from 2007, is nice, charging $2,000 dollars for it is just....self-destructive and misguided.

.

If interested, skim over the Pink Floyd Box Set details:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Early_Years_1965%E2%80%931972

.

In my mind, this is what an era-based box set should be...especially for artists with catalogs as vast as Prince and Pink Floyd.