Neversin said:

fabriziovenerandi said:

.

From a history point of view "it is well know" is only a... point of view. The only reliable sources for those information are Prince and the tapes in the vault, and you have not any of this. You (and we) have only bootlegs coming from unverified sources and sources whose reliability must be compared with the materials kept in the vault. So Howe is a more realiable source than you.

This is laughable... Howe wasn't even around when the recording logs were mulled over in the 1990's... You have no clue... And I don't do bootlegs from "unverified sources"...

Neversin.

I would add that one argument that often came since the beginning of this debate is "how do we know what we know, i.e. we can't know anything for sure, and those who claim they know things just made it up based on vague clues or because they have an agenda". This is an argument I also hear often when people question scientific knowledge or historical events, and there is a wild belief today that the things we collectively "know" were just arbitrarily decided by researchers or people with an agenda when, in fact, the history of ideas and the protocol of most research, whether in science, history or other fields, is documented for all to see.

.

There are, in fact, many things that we know, and we do know how we know them. Knowledge is always subject to questioning in light of new, solid, evidence when such new evidence surfaces, but unless such a thing happen, solid knowledge can be considered solid.

.

In Prince's case, Duane's book is a prime example of a sourced research, where you can actually see how Duane found each and every bit of information he's found, and where he's very clear about whether something is can be considered certain or whether he only has partial, uncertain or incomplete information.

.

I won't comment on Michael Howe's interview now, as I said earlier I don't feel comfortable calling people liars and there is no need for me to comment until I can find additional information. If and when I (or others) do, maybe we can assess the truth of Mr. Howe's claims with more certainty.

Neversin said:

fabriziovenerandi said:

An answer to Prince.org's critics?

Bullshit, it is well known Prince created the version people know from the bootlegs, let Jill hear it and then briefly considered that version for himself for potential release...
After she heared it he started working on it for her, so that means her recorded vocals was them already working on it for her, so the "complete" version is her released version, Prince's complete version is the version he let her hear after recording it...

Neversin.

Exactly.

What annoys me the most is that these are not P's original background vocals that have that amnazing high F#harmony during the chorus that is totally missing from this version.

For some reason, Jill's backup vocals are lacking the energy and take the soul away from what he originally did. Her backup vocals are mixed way louder than his and it sounds like it was just one of the takes before she added her final lead vocals (before the entire track was reworked and pverproduced for her release).

Neversin said:

fabriziovenerandi said:

.

From a history point of view "it is well know" is only a... point of view. The only reliable sources for those information are Prince and the tapes in the vault, and you have not any of this. You (and we) have only bootlegs coming from unverified sources and sources whose reliability must be compared with the materials kept in the vault. So Howe is a more realiable source than you.

This is laughable... Howe wasn't even around when the recording logs were mulled over in the 1990's... You have no clue... And I don't do bootlegs from "unverified sources"...

Neversin.

@Fabriziovenerandi ....just to let u know that Neversin is well known by serious fans as to be a reliable and trusful source....he is not a bootlegger but a collector (and more than this ) who was in the 90's very close from Prince's Vault....he is too very informative ...sorry to be fully disagree with u & i'm not the only one here to think in such way !!

databank said:

Neversin said:

This is laughable... Howe wasn't even around when the recording logs were mulled over in the 1990's... You have no clue... And I don't do bootlegs from "unverified sources"...

Neversin.

In Prince's case, Duane's book is a prime example of a sourced research, where you can actually see how Duane found each and every bit of information he's found, and where he's very clear about whether something is can be considered certain or whether he only has partial, uncertain or incomplete information.

.

I won't comment on Michael Howe's interview now, as I said earlier I don't feel comfortable calling people liars and there is no need for me to comment until I can find additional information. If and when I (or others) do, maybe we can assess the truth of Mr. Howe's claims with more certainty.

.

I would not like to have been misunderstood (translating is not easy). It is true what the databank said, every construction of knowledge is such until it is contradicted by new scientifically verifiable knowledge. And I don't want to question what Neversin put together. My point is that

.

a) the "scientifically verifiable knowledge" in this case are the tapes, the vault. All the rest are reconstructions, however precious, that have been made by deducing information from different sources whose reliability is obviously attributable to every single person. But at the moment only one person has access to the "scientifically verifiable knowledge", or Howe.

.

So, or Howe is lying, or some of these sources and knowledge cataloged for years, are wrong.

.

b) I know that this is not a popular opinion and I have already written about it in the past with databank, I am glad that Estate is letting out albums with the spirit of keeping alive the pleasure of listening to Prince, and they are not producing songs archives for collectors or archivists of Prince recordings.

.

I believe that who produces a Prince record today has the responsibility and the right, for example, to decide when and where to put a fade out to finish a song that in its entirety would kill the album. They are arbitrary choices that will still displease someone. If Howe really had used Prince's voice and Jill Jones's vocals, mixing two different works in progress, to get a song closer to the idea of ​​the finished song, I think he would have done well. It is no more wrong, I mean, to publish a truncated, unfinished song, sketched that Prince, however, had decided not to release.

.

f.

[Edited 6/15/19 23:08pm]

TrcikyChristopher said:

Neversin said:

Bullshit, it is well known Prince created the version people know from the bootlegs, let Jill hear it and then briefly considered that version for himself for potential release...
After she heared it he started working on it for her, so that means her recorded vocals was them already working on it for her, so the "complete" version is her released version, Prince's complete version is the version he let her hear after recording it...

Neversin.

Exactly.

What annoys me the most is that these are not P's original background vocals that have that amnazing high F#harmony during the chorus that is totally missing from this version.

For some reason, Jill's backup vocals are lacking the energy and take the soul away from what he originally did. Her backup vocals are mixed way louder than his and it sounds like it was just one of the takes before she added her final lead vocals (before the entire track was reworked and pverproduced for her release).

Is it possible that Prince's original backing vocals were erased when Jill added hers? I'm trying to rationalize why they went with a mixture of Jill and Prince vocal takes if Prince's original backing tracks still existed. If they considered it an artistic choice then they were way wrong.

cb70 said:

TrcikyChristopher said:

Exactly.

What annoys me the most is that these are not P's original background vocals that have that amnazing high F#harmony during the chorus that is totally missing from this version.

For some reason, Jill's backup vocals are lacking the energy and take the soul away from what he originally did. Her backup vocals are mixed way louder than his and it sounds like it was just one of the takes before she added her final lead vocals (before the entire track was reworked and pverproduced for her release).

Is it possible that Prince's original backing vocals were erased when Jill added hers? I'm trying to rationalize why they went with a mixture of Jill and Prince vocal takes if Prince's original backing tracks still existed. If they considered it an artistic choice then they were way wrong.

God only knows--but my guess is that, for whatever reason, they thought that Prince would use someone else's vocals rather than his own, if he had them recorded. Now, that's complete nonsense, and he routinely used layers of his own vocals rather than having someone else do the backing, even when there were competent singers readily available. And in the final version, he uses Jill behind Jill, which might be seen as support for the idea that he'd want to have the same voice for lead and backing in a Prince version as well. However, as unlikely as it seems to me that he would have ever used Jill's instead of his own to back himself up in this case, someone who wanted to argue for Jill's background could point to his use of her on some of his own released tracks. I really can see people making this choice, if both his and hers were available on the multitracks. It's the wrong choice, in my opinion, but it's not complete insane.

AvocadosMax said:

I think we’re all just gonna have to get use to inconsistency in sound quality going forward with future releases. Different time periods and damage to some of the master tapes here and there making some tracks sound worse than others is obviously evident. And we all heard about him sometimes recording on broken consoles (i.e “Ballad of Dorothy Parker”) so that’s another aspect too; Prince being in a hurry to get the song out, that he neglects the recording process. I’m sure for every new release, there’ll be at least one ‘Wouldn’t You Love To Love Me’ Or maybe two or three Who wants to bet that the master tapes to ‘Purple Rain’ are severely damaged and that’s why they resorted to that shit digital eq of a remaster they served us two years ago?

I agree with you on the sound quality of upcoming releases. It's going to be a mixed bag.

I don't agree with you on Purple Rain though. In that case, I think that was Prince himself just doing a shitty "remaster" by turning up all the volume levels, in order to placate WB in 2014 when he signed with them again.

I don't think Wouldn't You Love To Love Me should've made it onto an album the way it sounds. Something like Moonbeam Levels though (even sourced from bootleg or cassette) sounded fine -- or should I say "acceptable" -- to me.

Se7en said:

AvocadosMax said:

Se7en said:

I agree with you on the sound quality of upcoming releases. It's going to be a mixed bag.

I don't agree with you on Purple Rain though. In that case, I think that was Prince himself just doing a shitty "remaster" by turning up all the volume levels, in order to placate WB in 2014 when he signed with them again.

I don't think Wouldn't You Love To Love Me should've made it onto an album the way it sounds. Something like Moonbeam Levels though (even sourced from bootleg or cassette) sounded fine -- or should I say "acceptable" -- to me.

Yeah you could be right on Purple Rain. Oh and I learned a new word today, thank you lol I just hope In A Large Room With No Light ‘86 is in great shape so we can hear it in al its glory someday. They should just get started on the Dream Factory project asap.

An ambitious boxset with all known configurations of DF, Camille and CB could be a wonderful exploration of "the road to SOTT", arguably Prince's most critically acclaimed album of all times, but I can already hear many people on the Org complaining that they're not gonna get ripped off by purchasing 6 duplicates of some songs on various configs on CD. I fear in this day and age, digital is the only reasonable way to release such a project, because then anyone would be free to pick and choose what they want to purchase.

.

This being said, a more commercially viable DF project could simply include all the so far unreleased songs from all known DF configurations on a single album. Oddly enough that'd mean excluding the title track which is already on CB, but we'd still get:

.

It's A Wonderful Day

Big Tall Wall

And That Says What?

Teacher Teacher

In A Large Room With No Light

A Place In Heaven

Witness 4 The Prosecution

All My Dreams

+ Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A and Wendy's Interlude.

.

For good measure, other candidates could be the popular among fans Can't Stop This Felling I Got / Data Bank / We Can Funk / Girl O' My Dreams sessions that were supposedly intended for a DF musical anyway, as well as Power Fantastic complete with intro (being an "orphan song" as it is, and in edited form, on the B-Sides compilations) and even why not P's vocal version of Train while we're at it.

.

Well assembled in terms of tracklist, such a project would be respectful of the spirit of the original DF project, and a nice, tight album that both critics and hardcore fans would be extremely excited with

[Edited 6/16/19 7:09am]

databank said:

AvocadosMax said:

Se7en said: Yeah you could be right on Purple Rain. Oh and I learned a new word today, thank you lol I just hope In A Large Room With No Light ‘86 is in great shape so we can hear it in al its glory someday. They should just get started on the Dream Factory project asap.

An ambitious boxset with all known configurations of DF, Camille and CB could be a wonderful exploration of "the road to SOTT", arguably Prince's most critically acclaimed album of all times, but I can already hear many people on the Org complaining that they're not gonna get ripped off by purchasing 6 duplicates of some songs on various configs on CD. I fear in this day and age, digital is the only reasonable way to release such a project, because then anyone would be free to pick and choose what they want to purchase.

.

This being said, a more commercially viable DF project could simply include all the so far unreleased songs from all known DF configurations on a single album. Oddly enough that'd mean excluding the title track which is already on CB, but we'd still get:

.

It's A Wonderful Day

Big Tall Wall

And That Says What?

Teacher Teacher

In A Large Room With No Light

A Place In Heaven

Witness 4 The Prosecution

All My Dreams

+ Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A and Wendy's Interlude.

.

For good measure, other candidates could be the popular among fans Can't Stop This Felling I Got / Data Bank / We Can Funk / Girl O' My Dreams sessions that were supposedly intended for a DF musical anyway, as well as Power Fantastic complete with intro (being an "orphan song" as it is, and in edited form, on the B-Sides compilations) and even why not P's vocal version of Train while we're at it.

.

Well assembled in terms of tracklist, such a project would be respectful of the spirit of the original DF project, and a nice, tight album that both critics and hardcore fans would be extremely excited with

[Edited 6/16/19 7:09am]

.
I'd much rather get "ripped off" by getting 6 copies of some songs (not all of them would be identical copies), than by being charged £50 for a single album if I want some liner notes to it too.
.
I'd be happy to pay for huge box sets, and there are many examples of huge box sets doing well on the market (Dylan, for example) so they could be profitable IF DONE WELL.
.
But as I always stress: Prince's legacy deserves a great concept and vision, a detailed, professionally researched, long-term plan that goes way beyond the question of what should be released and how.
.

Jesus!!!

dear michaelangelo is beautiful!!!!!!!

BLESS sHEILA e BUT .pRINCE'S VERSION is amazing. lobve it.

and i love this release.

REST IN PURPLE BROTHER PRINCE!!

Kares said:

databank said:

An ambitious boxset with all known configurations of DF, Camille and CB could be a wonderful exploration of "the road to SOTT", arguably Prince's most critically acclaimed album of all times, but I can already hear many people on the Org complaining that they're not gonna get ripped off by purchasing 6 duplicates of some songs on various configs on CD. I fear in this day and age, digital is the only reasonable way to release such a project, because then anyone would be free to pick and choose what they want to purchase.

.

This being said, a more commercially viable DF project could simply include all the so far unreleased songs from all known DF configurations on a single album. Oddly enough that'd mean excluding the title track which is already on CB, but we'd still get:

.

It's A Wonderful Day

Big Tall Wall

And That Says What?

Teacher Teacher

In A Large Room With No Light

A Place In Heaven

Witness 4 The Prosecution

All My Dreams

+ Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A and Wendy's Interlude.

.

For good measure, other candidates could be the popular among fans Can't Stop This Felling I Got / Data Bank / We Can Funk / Girl O' My Dreams sessions that were supposedly intended for a DF musical anyway, as well as Power Fantastic complete with intro (being an "orphan song" as it is, and in edited form, on the B-Sides compilations) and even why not P's vocal version of Train while we're at it.

.

Well assembled in terms of tracklist, such a project would be respectful of the spirit of the original DF project, and a nice, tight album that both critics and hardcore fans would be extremely excited with

[Edited 6/16/19 7:09am]

.
I'd much rather get "ripped off" by getting 6 copies of some songs (not all of them would be identical copies), than by being charged £50 for a single album if I want some liner notes to it too.
.
I'd be happy to pay for huge box sets, and there are many examples of huge box sets doing well on the market (Dylan, for example) so they could be profitable IF DONE WELL.
.
But as I always stress: Prince's legacy deserves a great concept and vision, a detailed, professionally researched, long-term plan that goes way beyond the question of what should be released and how.
.

Don't tell me. But many people here are holding on to their bucks. See how they blamed Prince 4 not filling the CB CD's to their technical 80 minutes, totally ignoring the fact that P was trying to turn CB into an album, a statement, and that music isn't paid by the minute. See the fuss that was made over Duane rereleasing his book. It was a mere 25 or 30 bucks to spend for the reissue, and I gladly did it, but there was some namecalling. To Duane of all people. On the Org. Nuff said

databank said:

AvocadosMax said:

Se7en said: Yeah you could be right on Purple Rain. Oh and I learned a new word today, thank you lol I just hope In A Large Room With No Light ‘86 is in great shape so we can hear it in al its glory someday. They should just get started on the Dream Factory project asap.

An ambitious boxset with all known configurations of DF, Camille and CB could be a wonderful exploration of "the road to SOTT", arguably Prince's most critically acclaimed album of all times, but I can already hear many people on the Org complaining that they're not gonna get ripped off by purchasing 6 duplicates of some songs on various configs on CD. I fear in this day and age, digital is the only reasonable way to release such a project, because then anyone would be free to pick and choose what they want to purchase.

.

This being said, a more commercially viable DF project could simply include all the so far unreleased songs from all known DF configurations on a single album. Oddly enough that'd mean excluding the title track which is already on CB, but we'd still get:

.

It's A Wonderful Day

Big Tall Wall

And That Says What?

Teacher Teacher

In A Large Room With No Light

A Place In Heaven

Witness 4 The Prosecution

All My Dreams

+ Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A and Wendy's Interlude.

.

For good measure, other candidates could be the popular among fans Can't Stop This Felling I Got / Data Bank / We Can Funk / Girl O' My Dreams sessions that were supposedly intended for a DF musical anyway, as well as Power Fantastic complete with intro (being an "orphan song" as it is, and in edited form, on the B-Sides compilations) and even why not P's vocal version of Train while we're at it.

.

Well assembled in terms of tracklist, such a project would be respectful of the spirit of the original DF project, and a nice, tight album that both critics and hardcore fans would be extremely excited with

[Edited 6/16/19 7:09am]

Recently I made a Dream Factory playlist condensing my personal favorite non-SOTT tracks into one album:

1.) Visions / Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A

2.) Dream Factory

3.) Train

4.) In A Large Room With No Light

5.) Wendy (Interlude)

6.) Crystal Ball

7.) Power Fantastic

8.) Sexual Suicide

9.) A Place In Heaven

10.) Witness 4 The Prosecution

11.) Movie Star

12.) Last Heart

13.) All My Dreams

If they're going to release Dream Factory, I hope they do it right, but this is a cool hypothetical one-disc companion to SOTT.

[Edited 6/16/19 11:47am]

[Edited 6/16/19 11:47am]

databank said:

Kares said:

.
I'd much rather get "ripped off" by getting 6 copies of some songs (not all of them would be identical copies), than by being charged £50 for a single album if I want some liner notes to it too.
.
I'd be happy to pay for huge box sets, and there are many examples of huge box sets doing well on the market (Dylan, for example) so they could be profitable IF DONE WELL.
.
But as I always stress: Prince's legacy deserves a great concept and vision, a detailed, professionally researched, long-term plan that goes way beyond the question of what should be released and how.
.

Don't tell me. But many people here are holding on to their bucks. See how they blamed Prince 4 not filling the CB CD's to their technical 80 minutes, totally ignoring the fact that P was trying to turn CB into an album, a statement, and that music isn't paid by the minute. See the fuss that was made over Duane rereleasing his book. It was a mere 25 or 30 bucks to spend for the reissue, and I gladly did it, but there was some namecalling. To Duane of all people. On the Org. Nuff said

.
I know. And Duane's book wasn't even that much, tbh, I think I bought the hardback for about £21 and the paperback for about £15. And I bought the second one happily too as it's a monumental work that shows genuine respect and love for Prince's legacy. And I was happy to do transcribing work for him too, for free and I can hardly wait for the next volumes. If I was his publisher I'd hire 2-3 full-time assistants for him so he could finish more volumes sooner.
.

[Edited 6/17/19 2:53am]

-

You know...

bisdes all...

more than 260 million galaxies out there.

And just imagine,

we got the one with Prince.

Yea-ass !

-

Vannormal said:

-

You know...

bisdes all...

more than 260 million galaxies out there.

And just imagine,

we got the one with Prince.

Yea-ass !

-

.
I beg your pardon, but it's actually at least one hundred billion galaxies just in the observable part of the Universe, and approx. 20 sextillion (20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets. Even if only a tiny fraction of those have life, we got the one with Prince.

So the regular cd seems to have no real booklet or liner notes, just a single fold out page:

[Edited 6/17/19 6:40am]

From the picture above, it appears that the booklet doesn't include precise information about the recording dates (month only) and doesn't include any information about the mixing process.

The inner cardboard is the pic of the protege album covers, and the inner sleeve is a flimsy half assed song info of the tracklist. That's basically it.

olb99 said:

From the picture above, it appears that the booklet doesn't include precise information about the recording dates (month only) and doesn't include any information about the mixing process.

feeluupp said:

The inner cardboard is the pic of the protege album covers, and the inner sleeve is a flimsy half assed song info of the tracklist. That's basically it.

olb99 said:

From the picture above, it appears that the booklet doesn't include precise information about the recording dates (month only) and doesn't include any information about the mixing process.

.

That's... disappointing. Although expected.

Cheap pacakging for higher profits... Multiple vinyl releases, extra target release... Milk the fans for as much profit basically.

olb99 said:

feeluupp said:

The inner cardboard is the pic of the protege album covers, and the inner sleeve is a flimsy half assed song info of the tracklist. That's basically it.

.

That's... disappointing. Although expected.

No credit for Paul and Clare on NC2U. Interesting

databank said:

No credit for Paul and Clare on NC2U. Interesting

feeluupp said:

So the regular cd seems to have no real booklet or liner notes, just a single fold out page:

[Edited 6/17/19 6:40am]

.
This is a joke.
I'll refuse to buy the so-called "deluxe" edition for £50 just to get liner notes with the same music content.
.
Time to take action. I've had enough.

.

[Edited 6/17/19 8:13am]

Kares said:

feeluupp said:

So the regular cd seems to have no real booklet or liner notes, just a single fold out page:

[Edited 6/17/19 6:40am]

.
This is a joke.
I'll refuse to by the so-called "deluxe" edition for £50 just to get liner notes with the same music content.
.
Time to take action. I've had enough.

TBH it's likely such liner notes will be shared by purchasers here or on Discogs, as was the case with PR Deluxe and many other releases without any label sueing Discogs for copyright infringement AFAIK, so as long as the internet allows one to access them without paying and it's up to everyone to find them, I think it's fair game.

I have a better (cheaper) idea for Michael: Rerelease all abums in mildly remastered format but without any fades (if these were present).

Those non-faded versions will be the true album originals.

olb99 said:

From the picture above, it appears that the booklet doesn't include precise information about the recording dates (month only) and doesn't include any information about the mixing process.

.

Exactly.

It shows that `they` did not think that that info was of any interest to us.

Perhaps on a need to know basis?

I.o.w.: there's a lot of change needed there.

.

I almost forgot:

.

Why no jewelcase?

Is it that expen$ive versus the cardboard?

.

.

.

[Edited 6/17/19 7:32am]