dupe

[Edited 6/7/19 2:33am]

TheEnglishGent said:

To the subject of the 'real' demo versions. Are you saying that you have these, or that you know these to exist within collectors circles? Or is it assumption based on speaking to others? Or you just know for sure that they exist somewhere in the vault?

He'll probably bite my head of again but I don't care. [Snip - luv4u]

**
- Sex Shooter on Originals seems to be Prince's version of the Apollonia 6 version but Neversin's sample is Prince's vocal version of the Vanity 6 version.

- Jungle Love on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Manic Monday on Originals is a different mix as Neversin's sample but essentially the same version but I'm not sure about the backing vocals.

- Noon Rendezvous on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Make-Up on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- 100 MPH on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- You're My Love on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Holly Rock on Originals sounds like a different mix than Neversin's sample.

- Baby You're a Trip on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- The Glamorous Life on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Gigolos Get Lonely Too on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Love... Thy Will Be Done on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Dear Michaelangelo on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Wouldn't You Love To Love Me on Originals is a different version from Neversin's sample.

- Nothing Compares 2 U on Originals is a different mix from Neversin's sample.

Sound quality is slightly better on Originals (not much) and volume boosted, but I don't know if Neversin watered his samples down.
All in all only Sex Shooter, Manic Monday, Holly Rock, Wouldn't You Love to Love Me and Nothing Compares 2 U seem different from his samples.
It boggles my mind that Neversin has these tracks.
**

[Edited 6/7/19 2:41am]

Dunno what this `tidal` thing is and I swear by physical media whenever possible.

So all I have is this `mixtape` link that someone sent me until I can take delivery of the CD.

Still sounds kinda OK, so far.

Well the so called elete traders wont like it cuss they aint got the best /every version of the songs anymore! In this day and age i dont know why you wouldnt share what you have got other than to make money. But anyhow, back to this release. Love how it showcases princes voice more than anything. And the different beats etc. The music of make up is funky as hell, just wish it was longer. Same as sex shooter and jungle love. Its a fun release, which i think is the whole point of the release by the team. I hope it does well. Maybe pick up some awards at the grammys for vocals. Love his voice in the kenny rodgers song. so different. The sound quality is a bit up and down when you listen on headphones. It shows princes skills pretty good. Its not perfect, ofcourse its not, but i hope this is the start of other volumes.

JorisE73 said:

It boggles my mind that Neversin has these tracks.
**

Indeed it does. It also begs the question, does he have the other 'demo' versions alluded to in his previous post. It certianly reinforces my sentiment that he's in a fairly unique position. I'm not going to turn this into a moan about elite collectors not releasing what they have, but it is definitely frustrating for them to complain about what wasn't released when they can listen to it anyway and have no intention of letting it out for the general public to hear. But that said, I still want to hear their thoughts and opinions. My feelings are mixed .

TheEnglishGent said:

It certianly reinforces my sentiment that he's in a fairly unique position.

.

Whahahaha!

- Hardcore fans wanting these goods too

- Estate lawyers and worse that want to avoid leaks coute que coute.

- Contract killers sent out by some in the Estate to accomplish the same in a more practical manner

All of these might be after the uniquely positioned person.

TheEnglishGent said:

JorisE73 said:

It boggles my mind that Neversin has these tracks.
**

Indeed it does. It also begs the question, does he have the other 'demo' versions alluded to in his previous post. It certianly reinforces my sentiment that he's in a fairly unique position. I'm not going to turn this into a moan about elite collectors not releasing what they have, but it is definitely frustrating for them to complain about what wasn't released when they can listen to it anyway and have no intention of letting it out for the general public to hear. But that said, I still want to hear their thoughts and opinions. My feelings are mixed .

Part of my post above is snipped for some reason, but the comparison was made by someone who was at the listenig party 2 weeks ago and mailed me his comparison with the 1 minute samples he got from him a month ago, I just pasted it in the post above from his email.
He also confirmed Neversin has the full tracks taht he made samples of.

databank said:

Neversin said:

It would have been nice if they could have actually put Prince's "Original" solo demos on there instead of some of these "Frankenstein" versions ("Manic Monday" (Brenda and Jill background vox), "Holly Rock" (suffers the most of it, too much to list), "Baby, You're A Trip" (Jill's background vox), "Dear Michaelangelo" (Eddie M. instead of original synth lines from the demo), "Nothing Compares 2 U" (already discussed...)

A shitty release that still gives bootleggers a chance to profit off of the real demo versions when some potential backstabber tries to sell these to them... Sad that this is what we have to look forward to for the rest of our "Prince fan" days...
The less said about this crap the sooner it'll fade away...

Neversin.

OK, this is what I feared. Somehow I naively hoped that they'd put the real NC2U on this album, and that no other track would be posthumously tinkered with... OK, now we know who we're dealing with I guess. The only possible half-excuse I could find for them was if they come clear and state in the liner notes that they've messed with some of the songs to make them more consumer-friendly, but I doubt this will be the case (let me know guys when you get the CD).

.

Haven't listened to it yet and not sure which versions are authentic or not but the case pleaded here by Neversin, who has proven year after year to be a reliable person when it comes to such things, is convincing to me, and anyway the mere presence of the certified fake NC2U is enough for us to assume any of the other tracks may have been messed with. Once trust is broken once...

.

The utter drama in all this, beyond the Estate butchering Prince's work for commercial purposes, is that, as with NC2U last year, the record will get nothing but rave reviews by the music press since no journalist suspects that some songs are fake. Hell, even those French fans didn't make any mention of it in their early reviews some days ago, so if even hardcore Prince fans can be fooled, the average journalist won't see anything.

.

If I get around finding the time to do it, I may drop a mail to each and every site and journalist who reviewed the thing to tell them what occured in hope of some reaction. If anyone here has the time to do it, I encourage you to do the same. A few reviewers might be pissed and publish/post something about it. Princevault also needs to mention it, I will contact them ASAP. I would really like to hear Duane on this, too, he's an authority of sorts onb those studio sessions, now, and his opinion could weight in.

.

I also strongly discourage anyone from purchasing or streaming this product. The more critical acclaim and the more money the Estate gets from this, the more fake mixes we'll see in the future. Just download the album illegally, it'll soon be easy to find. But the CD or LP second hand in some months if you really need to have it in physical format. Just don't encourage them to do it again.

.

To be honest, I'm really, really sad about this A vault full of gems and instead of releasing them as such, a bunch of sorcerer's apprentices feel they need to "upgrade" the recordings. Prince's legacy deserved better than this.

I've heard this before. What exactly was done to NC2U?

RicoN said:

Neversin said:

It would have been nice if they could have actually put Prince's "Original" solo demos on there instead of some of these "Frankenstein" versions ("Manic Monday" (Brenda and Jill background vox), "Holly Rock" (suffers the most of it, too much to list), "Baby, You're A Trip" (Jill's background vox), "Dear Michaelangelo" (Eddie M. instead of original synth lines from the demo), "Nothing Compares 2 U" (already discussed...)

A shitty release that still gives bootleggers a chance to profit off of the real demo versions when some potential backstabber tries to sell these to them... Sad that this is what we have to look forward to for the rest of our "Prince fan" days...
The less said about this crap the sooner it'll fade away...

Neversin.

Prince's demos will have BVs on them, they aer an intergral part of the song. What you're describing is an unfinished version and incomplete version, which may be of some interest but won't be a fair representattion of the song Prince was laying down.

Quit your moaning, you're worse than our lass.

Honestly I can't believe that, nor understand why fans are arguing about this. We should all stand together against the Estate messing with Prince tapes as a matter of principle, even if the result may be pleasant to hear. I'm baffled by the fact that some fans here don't care, or approve. And even if one isn't personally annoyed by it, they could at least understand why other fans are, it's no rocket science.

.

What Neversin said is that some of those mixes are fake. We know it is the case at least with NC2U so I don't see why it wouldn't with several other tracks. True, there's no harm in releasing Prince's last mix before the song was overdubbed and finished for release instread of an earlier, barebone mix, but the keyword here is Prince's last mix. Not Michael Howe's 2019 remix that uses Prince's last vocal mix and arbitrarily adds later overdubs from the released mix to "finish" or "polish" it. And they're not even doing a good job at it: the way the vocals and strings are mixed in NC2U 2018 do not even attempt to imitate the way they were mixed in the Family version. But regardless, good job or bad job, there shouldn't be any job at all. There is no need for it.

.

So seriously, everyone, we're together in this, why argue? We all love Prince's music, we all want it out, and when Prince passed the consensus among us (there were threads about it) was that Prince's unreleased material was to be released as such, not remixed by Justin Timberlake or Michael Howe for that matter. Let us not allow the Estate divide and conquer the community by arguing among ouselves while the Estate is trashing the vault, let's argue with the Estate and complain as consumers who feel cheated by a company not even saying what they do (because if at least they'd admit it, you'd know what you purchase, but I don't recall a single official statement admitting that NC2U was fake), not for the purpose of trashing them but in order to eventually get them to give us the product we want, i.e. Prince's music as he left it, and to have them be open and honest about any modification to the original tapes.

.

Peace

databank said:

We should all stand together against the Estate messing with Prince tapes as a matter of principle, even if the result may be pleasant to hear.

.

I agree here.

We should make this point VERY clear to 'the Estate' or whoever messed with them tapes.

I see this mix risk expand in the future when it comes to studio stuff we mostly do not know.

If we can assume that there's mix instructions with the tape(s), then how can we make sure these are followed as closely as reasonable?

thisisreece said:

databank said:

OK, this is what I feared. Somehow I naively hoped that they'd put the real NC2U on this album, and that no other track would be posthumously tinkered with... OK, now we know who we're dealing with I guess. The only possible half-excuse I could find for them was if they come clear and state in the liner notes that they've messed with some of the songs to make them more consumer-friendly, but I doubt this will be the case (let me know guys when you get the CD).

.

Haven't listened to it yet and not sure which versions are authentic or not but the case pleaded here by Neversin, who has proven year after year to be a reliable person when it comes to such things, is convincing to me, and anyway the mere presence of the certified fake NC2U is enough for us to assume any of the other tracks may have been messed with. Once trust is broken once...

.

The utter drama in all this, beyond the Estate butchering Prince's work for commercial purposes, is that, as with NC2U last year, the record will get nothing but rave reviews by the music press since no journalist suspects that some songs are fake. Hell, even those French fans didn't make any mention of it in their early reviews some days ago, so if even hardcore Prince fans can be fooled, the average journalist won't see anything.

.

If I get around finding the time to do it, I may drop a mail to each and every site and journalist who reviewed the thing to tell them what occured in hope of some reaction. If anyone here has the time to do it, I encourage you to do the same. A few reviewers might be pissed and publish/post something about it. Princevault also needs to mention it, I will contact them ASAP. I would really like to hear Duane on this, too, he's an authority of sorts onb those studio sessions, now, and his opinion could weight in.

.

I also strongly discourage anyone from purchasing or streaming this product. The more critical acclaim and the more money the Estate gets from this, the more fake mixes we'll see in the future. Just download the album illegally, it'll soon be easy to find. But the CD or LP second hand in some months if you really need to have it in physical format. Just don't encourage them to do it again.

.

To be honest, I'm really, really sad about this A vault full of gems and instead of releasing them as such, a bunch of sorcerer's apprentices feel they need to "upgrade" the recordings. Prince's legacy deserved better than this.

I've heard this before. What exactly was done to NC2U?

This should be a sticky because it seems many in the community still don't know and it's a pity. I'm not gonna go back in details about how we found out about this, I explained it thoroughly in a thread some weeks ago (maybe someone remembers where and can post a link?), but we have a strong case here and our conclusions were that NC2U 2018 is a composite of Prince's original recording (from a cassette not a multi-tracks) AND the background vocals and strings from the multi-tracks of the Family version (those background vocals and strings were recorded after Prince was done with the song and for the Family version only). If Neversin is to be believed (and he usually is), it appears other songs on Originals suffer from the same problem.

Please spread the word because too many fans are still unaware of the fact that they're listening to a "Frankenstein" version, as Neversin calls it, and not a single review by the music press took note of it.

So, IMHO -based on the mixtape-, this 'Originals' release is not the original recordings but more of a `remix` type of CD with some Prince lead vocals on songs we did not yet have on (official) CD's by Prince.

Neversin said:

It would have been nice if they could have actually put Prince's "Original" solo demos on there instead of some of these "Frankenstein" versions ("Manic Monday" (Brenda and Jill background vox), "Holly Rock" (suffers the most of it, too much to list), "Baby, You're A Trip" (Jill's background vox), "Dear Michaelangelo" (Eddie M. instead of original synth lines from the demo), "Nothing Compares 2 U" (already discussed...)

A shitty release that still gives bootleggers a chance to profit off of the real demo versions when some potential backstabber tries to sell these to them... Sad that this is what we have to look forward to for the rest of our "Prince fan" days...
The less said about this crap the sooner it'll fade away...

Neversin.

bollocks! It's disappointung to a handful of so called elite collectors/theives. The VAST majority will see this as new & exciting - even old folk like me who have literally hundreds of bootlegs.

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Make-up is the jam so far! Weirdly so is You're my love!!

databank said:

This should be a sticky because it seems many in the community still don't know and it's a pity. I'm not gonna go back in details about how we found out about this, I explained it thoroughly in a thread some weeks ago (maybe someone remembers where and can post a link?), but we have a strong case here and our conclusions were that NC2U 2018 is a composite of Prince's original recording (from a cassette not a multi-tracks) AND the background vocals and strings from the multi-tracks of the Family version (those background vocals and strings were recorded after Prince was done with the song and for the Family version only). If Neversin is to be believed (and he usually is), it appears other songs on Originals suffer from the same problem.

Please spread the word because too many fans are still unaware of the fact that they're listening to a "Frankenstein" version, as Neversin calls it, and not a single review by the music press took note of it.

It's a tricky one, because until there's absolute proof, at this point we have only guesswork and hearsay. I know the NC2U situation is well documented but this new release has only just appeared. Just because Neversin or anyone has an earlier or different version, that doesn't automatically make these versions 'Frankenstein' mixes. These may well be legitimate mixes from a different generation in the process.

I do agree that the trust has already been broken but that doesn't make it irredeemably so. We should make our voices heard, I 100% agree with that, but we don't want to come at it like a pitchfork wielding mob who don't have all the facts.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Neversin said:

It would have been nice if they could have actually put Prince's "Original" solo demos on there instead of some of these "Frankenstein" versions ("Manic Monday" (Brenda and Jill background vox), "Holly Rock" (suffers the most of it, too much to list), "Baby, You're A Trip" (Jill's background vox), "Dear Michaelangelo" (Eddie M. instead of original synth lines from the demo), "Nothing Compares 2 U" (already discussed...)

A shitty release that still gives bootleggers a chance to profit off of the real demo versions when some potential backstabber tries to sell these to them... Sad that this is what we have to look forward to for the rest of our "Prince fan" days...
The less said about this crap the sooner it'll fade away...

Neversin.

bollocks! It's disappointung to a handful of so called elite collectors/theives. The VAST majority will see this as new & exciting - even old folk like me who have literally hundreds of bootlegs.

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Yup - totally agree.

TheEnglishGent said:

JorisE73 said:

It boggles my mind that Neversin has these tracks.
**

Indeed it does. It also begs the question, does he have the other 'demo' versions alluded to in his previous post. It certianly reinforces my sentiment that he's in a fairly unique position. I'm not going to turn this into a moan about elite collectors not releasing what they have, but it is definitely frustrating for them to complain about what wasn't released when they can listen to it anyway and have no intention of letting it out for the general public to hear. But that said, I still want to hear their thoughts and opinions. My feelings are mixed .

I'm in the same boat. I appreciate the perspective from fans like Neversin and Militant who have access to a lot more material than most hardcores. They clearly care deeply about the history of Prince's recordings and the authenticity of different versions, and they provide the rest of us with a great service by sharing what they are able to with us.

That said, one thing I don't understand is the confidence with which some (not all, but many) of these fans with lots of uncirculating versions dismiss released versions that differ from theirs. It seems likely to me that Prince would have lots of versions of songs that they may not have, yet some of them treat these versions with a disdain that seems only possible with 100% confidence in their lack of authenticity. Perhaps I'm being naive, but how they can know that these other version of frauds seems implausible to me unless they (a) worked with Prince themselves during the era in which these songs were recorded and/or (b) have had long-term extended physical access to the vault. How else could such claims of fraudulency be communicated with such fervent surety?

Also, it would be nice to see some positive commentary from some of these fans with regard to these releases. It seems that every new release is welcomed with an avalanche of scorn.

databank said:

RicoN said:

Prince's demos will have BVs on them, they aer an intergral part of the song. What you're describing is an unfinished version and incomplete version, which may be of some interest but won't be a fair representattion of the song Prince was laying down.

Quit your moaning, you're worse than our lass.

Honestly I can't believe that, nor understand why fans are arguing about this. We should all stand together against the Estate messing with Prince tapes as a matter of principle, even if the result may be pleasant to hear. I'm baffled by the fact that some fans here don't care, or approve. And even if one isn't personally annoyed by it, they could at least understand why other fans are, it's no rocket science.

.

What Neversin said is that some of those mixes are fake. We know it is the case at least with NC2U so I don't see why it wouldn't with several other tracks. True, there's no harm in releasing Prince's last mix before the song was overdubbed and finished for release instread of an earlier, barebone mix, but the keyword here is Prince's last mix. Not Michael Howe's 2019 remix that uses Prince's last vocal mix and arbitrarily adds later overdubs from the released mix to "finish" or "polish" it. And they're not even doing a good job at it: the way the vocals and strings are mixed in NC2U 2018 do not even attempt to imitate the way they were mixed in the Family version. But regardless, good job or bad job, there shouldn't be any job at all. There is no need for it.

.

So seriously, everyone, we're together in this, why argue? We all love Prince's music, we all want it out, and when Prince passed the consensus among us (there were threads about it) was that Prince's unreleased material was to be released as such, not remixed by Justin Timberlake or Michael Howe for that matter. Let us not allow the Estate divide and conquer the community by arguing among ouselves while the Estate is trashing the vault, let's argue with the Estate and complain as consumers who feel cheated by a company not even saying what they do (because if at least they'd admit it, you'd know what you purchase, but I don't recall a single official statement admitting that NC2U was fake), not for the purpose of trashing them but in order to eventually get them to give us the product we want, i.e. Prince's music as he left it, and to have them be open and honest about any modification to the original tapes.

.

Peace

See, that's the thing. I don't understand how anyone can KNOW that releases like "Nothing Compares 2 U" are fake. It just seems like speculation to me.

TheEnglishGent said:

OperatingThetan said:

TheEnglishGent said:

Indeed it does. It also begs the question, does he have the other 'demo' versions alluded to in his previous post. It certianly reinforces my sentiment that he's in a fairly unique position. I'm not going to turn this into a moan about elite collectors not releasing what they have, but it is definitely frustrating for them to complain about what wasn't released when they can listen to it anyway and have no intention of letting it out for the general public to hear. But that said, I still want to hear their thoughts and opinions. My feelings are mixed .

My feelings are much less mixed - share or shut up and let us enjoy what we have. Also, do these 'elite' collectors truly have verifiable information on the provenance of every track they posdess? We all know Prince went through countless versions, mixes and incarnations of certain songs. I would want more verification before making an accusation that some of these songs are hybrid tracks. * [Edited 6/7/19 3:26am]

Yep, completely agree with this, I made the same point in a later post. Just because what they have is different, doesn't make this relase wrong.

TheEnglishGent said:

databank said:

This should be a sticky because it seems many in the community still don't know and it's a pity. I'm not gonna go back in details about how we found out about this, I explained it thoroughly in a thread some weeks ago (maybe someone remembers where and can post a link?), but we have a strong case here and our conclusions were that NC2U 2018 is a composite of Prince's original recording (from a cassette not a multi-tracks) AND the background vocals and strings from the multi-tracks of the Family version (those background vocals and strings were recorded after Prince was done with the song and for the Family version only). If Neversin is to be believed (and he usually is), it appears other songs on Originals suffer from the same problem.

Please spread the word because too many fans are still unaware of the fact that they're listening to a "Frankenstein" version, as Neversin calls it, and not a single review by the music press took note of it.

It's a tricky one, because until there's absolute proof, at this point we have only guesswork and hearsay. I know the NC2U situation is well documented but this new release has only just appeared. Just because Neversin or anyone has an earlier or different version, that doesn't automatically make these versions 'Frankenstein' mixes. These may well be legitimate mixes from a different generation in the process.

I do agree that the trust has already been broken but that doesn't make it irredeemably so. We should make our voices heard, I 100% agree with that, but we don't want to come at it like a pitchfork wielding mob who don't have all the facts.

I certainly plan to investigate Neversin's claims about the other tracks when I have them, but when you look at all the facts the NC2U case is too solid to be considered "hearsay" and "guesswork" IMHO, and there has been issues with PR deluxe as well. There is no question of a Pitchfork mob, what I'm talking about, as said above, is unhappy customers complaining about a product that does not appear to be genuine or fulfill our wishes. I'm not asking for Michael Howe's head, calling people names or anything like that, I'm just saying that we, as the core audience, are legitimate to ask for clarification about all this, and no interference on the tracks in the future. If Mr. Howe or any other Estate representative would come on the Org for a Q&A (which they obviously won't), we could have a civil discussion about it. I've always called for respect when it came to former Prince associates interacting with us here, and I certainly call for respect when it comes to the people in charge of the Estate. What I ask is dialogue and openness about what they do. If they come and say that NC2U is a real mix, and can provide sufficient evidence, including for example David Z or any engineer or collaborator from that time, confirming it, then I would not go as far as to call them liars, but precisely because I do not believe they are liars, I'm pretty sure they won't do this because it that mix is near certain to be posthumous.

.

Also, I wish people would stop giving Neversin shit. Obviously some people hate his guts because he has tapes and won't leak them, and this is silly. Neversin is far from the only one on the Org to have such uncirculating tapes, for one thing, and it's each and every "elite" trader's prerogative to share what they have or not.

.

I certainly will not get into any flame war with any fan about any of this, though, like I said we are all in this together and we all want Prince's music as he left it.

Moonbeam said:

databank said:

Honestly I can't believe that, nor understand why fans are arguing about this. We should all stand together against the Estate messing with Prince tapes as a matter of principle, even if the result may be pleasant to hear. I'm baffled by the fact that some fans here don't care, or approve. And even if one isn't personally annoyed by it, they could at least understand why other fans are, it's no rocket science.

.

What Neversin said is that some of those mixes are fake. We know it is the case at least with NC2U so I don't see why it wouldn't with several other tracks. True, there's no harm in releasing Prince's last mix before the song was overdubbed and finished for release instread of an earlier, barebone mix, but the keyword here is Prince's last mix. Not Michael Howe's 2019 remix that uses Prince's last vocal mix and arbitrarily adds later overdubs from the released mix to "finish" or "polish" it. And they're not even doing a good job at it: the way the vocals and strings are mixed in NC2U 2018 do not even attempt to imitate the way they were mixed in the Family version. But regardless, good job or bad job, there shouldn't be any job at all. There is no need for it.

.

So seriously, everyone, we're together in this, why argue? We all love Prince's music, we all want it out, and when Prince passed the consensus among us (there were threads about it) was that Prince's unreleased material was to be released as such, not remixed by Justin Timberlake or Michael Howe for that matter. Let us not allow the Estate divide and conquer the community by arguing among ouselves while the Estate is trashing the vault, let's argue with the Estate and complain as consumers who feel cheated by a company not even saying what they do (because if at least they'd admit it, you'd know what you purchase, but I don't recall a single official statement admitting that NC2U was fake), not for the purpose of trashing them but in order to eventually get them to give us the product we want, i.e. Prince's music as he left it, and to have them be open and honest about any modification to the original tapes.

.

Peace

See, that's the thing. I don't understand how anyone can KNOW that releases like "Nothing Compares 2 U" are fake. It just seems like speculation to me.

OK, I finally found the explanations I gave about this. It was actually earlier in this very thread

.

"Of course, I am always the first one to ask for evidence and sources so here's what I know:

.

- Two people who have connections with WB/the Estate have told me the same story, and they don't know each other. The first told it to me on a tacit confidential basis, the second one didn't care and that's when I began speaking about it openly. I of course have no absolute proof that these people have the connections they claim to have or that they're telling the truth, but I have every reason, from our private conversations to their public posts to what other people in the community have told me about them, to believe they're genuine. The first person told me that it was a mix from both P's and the Family's versions, while the second, who apparently has a closer source, later told me that P's version was from cassette and The Family's version from multitracks.

.

- Interestingly, Kares who is a sound engineer (again, I have no definitive proof of that but no reason to doubt it from our numerous conversations) claims he can definitely recognize a cassette "sound" on the 2018 version. I say "interestingly" because I had not told him that my second source had told me that before he came up with this theory here on the org.

.

- The Nilsen/Tudahl research have revealed that the recording sessions happened in that order Prince/Eric -> Paul/Susannah -> Clare Fischer. The Family background background vocals were recorded at the same time as Paul's lead vocals, and by the time Clare Fischer's strings were added, Prince's lead vocals were long gone. While not impossible, it seems very unlikely that super busy Prince would have bothered having an engineer retroactively adding the Family vocals and strings to his own version in 1985, talking about a song that had zero historical significance back then (before Sinead) and that he apparently never even considered releasing in this version after it became an international hit (when Miles Davis asked for a version of it, Prince told Eric to rerecord one from scratch instead of offering the original multi-tracks to Davis, and when Prince finally released it, it was a live cut).

.

- The mix is very, extremely different from both the original Family demo (streamed by Paul on his website in 2002 and widely bootlegged ever since) and every Prince song featuring strings from 85-86. In those early Clare Fischer collabs, Prince would mix the strings waaaaay much louder. On NC2U 2018, you can barely hear them by comparison. Overall and strings aside, the mix is quite different from Paul's 2002 version while the only musical difference between both tracks is the lead vocals. And of course the bootleg we have lacks both orchestra and Family vocals.

.

- And IIRC it was Alan Leeds who claimed a decade ago or so that P's original vocals had been erased from the multitracks, leading to the belief that no copy had survived until a cassette-sourced bootleg appeared 2 years ago or so. This story seems to corroborate everything we have above.

.

You may say this is all circumstantial evidence and testimonies by witnesses who may not be who they claim they are, and at the end of the day I'd have to agree with you. But I believe we have a solid case here, particularly if you add it to the apparent lack of care that WB and the Estate have displayed with other releases (I'm not gonna get into that here but so far there isn't a single posthumous release with WB that's been handled properly).

.

So this is my case. You may not be convinced and I'll respect that in lack of definitive proof, but I believe the case to be quite solid."

.

[Edited 6/7/19 3:39am]

databank said:

TheEnglishGent said:

It's a tricky one, because until there's absolute proof, at this point we have only guesswork and hearsay. I know the NC2U situation is well documented but this new release has only just appeared. Just because Neversin or anyone has an earlier or different version, that doesn't automatically make these versions 'Frankenstein' mixes. These may well be legitimate mixes from a different generation in the process.

I do agree that the trust has already been broken but that doesn't make it irredeemably so. We should make our voices heard, I 100% agree with that, but we don't want to come at it like a pitchfork wielding mob who don't have all the facts.

I certainly plan to investigate Neversin's claims about the other tracks when I have them, but when you look at all the facts the NC2U case is too solid to be considered "hearsay" and "guesswork" IMHO, and there has been issues with PR deluxe as well. There is no question of a Pitchfork mob, what I'm talking about, as said above, is unhappy customers complaining about a product that does not appear to be genuine or fulfill our wishes. I'm not asking for Michael Howe's head, calling people names or anything like that, I'm just saying that we, as the core audience, are legitimate to ask for clarification about all this, and no interference on the tracks in the future. If Mr. Howe or any other Estate representative would come on the Org for a Q&A (which they obviously won't), we could have a civil discussion about it. I've always called for respect when it came to former Prince associates interacting with us here, and I certainly call for respect when it comes to the people in charge of the Estate. What I ask is dialogue and openness about what they do. If they come and say that NC2U is a real mix, and can provide sufficient evidence, including for example David Z or any engineer or collaborator from that time, confirming it, then I would not go as far as to call them liars, but precisely because I do not believe they are liars, I'm pretty sure they won't do this because it that mix is near certain to be posthumous.

.

Also, I wish people would stop giving Neversin shit. Obviously some people hate his guts because he has tapes and won't leak them, and this is silly. Neversin is far from the only one on the Org to have such uncirculating tapes, for one thing, and it's each and every "elite" trader's prerogative to share what they have or not.

.

I certainly will not get into any flame war with any fan about any of this, though, like I said we are all in this together and we all want Prince's music as he left it.

I guess my (admittedly limited) understanding of it is this:

Michael Howe and Troy Carver and others have access to the vault. They clearly are listening to and cataloguing things. There's no reason to question this. The elite collectors clearly have access to recordings that most fans don't. I also think there's no reason to question this. However, the physical access that Howe and others have to the vault gives them an edge in any claim about the authenticity of a recording for me. If these releases are being presented as genuine, it's going to take more than the presence of a multitude of different versions among elite collectors to convince me of a "gotcha!" claim.

I mean no disrespect to Neversin or anyone else, and as I have said, I appreciate the information they do provide to fans. I know I'll never hear most of the wide array of recordings they have and I am ok with that, so it's nice to learn tidbits from people who do have them and who clearly do care deeply about Prince's historical legacy.

I just wish the vitriol and the mudslinging would be kept to a minimum. This place has grown negative enough as it is since Prince died, and I don't want to have to avoid this place again in order to enjoy a release as satisfying as Originals.

databank said:

TheEnglishGent said:

It's a tricky one, because until there's absolute proof, at this point we have only guesswork and hearsay. I know the NC2U situation is well documented but this new release has only just appeared. Just because Neversin or anyone has an earlier or different version, that doesn't automatically make these versions 'Frankenstein' mixes. These may well be legitimate mixes from a different generation in the process.

I do agree that the trust has already been broken but that doesn't make it irredeemably so. We should make our voices heard, I 100% agree with that, but we don't want to come at it like a pitchfork wielding mob who don't have all the facts.

I certainly plan to investigate Neversin's claims about the other tracks when I have them, but when you look at all the facts the NC2U case is too solid to be considered "hearsay" and "guesswork" IMHO, and there has been issues with PR deluxe as well. There is no question of a Pitchfork mob, what I'm talking about, as said above, is unhappy customers complaining about a product that does not appear to be genuine or fulfill our wishes. I'm not asking for Michael Howe's head, calling people names or anything like that, I'm just saying that we, as the core audience, are legitimate to ask for clarification about all this, and no interference on the tracks in the future. If Mr. Howe or any other Estate representative would come on the Org for a Q&A (which they obviously won't), we could have a civil discussion about it. I've always called for respect when it came to former Prince associates interacting with us here, and I certainly call for respect when it comes to the people in charge of the Estate. What I ask is dialogue and openness about what they do. If they come and say that NC2U is a real mix, and can provide sufficient evidence, including for example David Z or any engineer or collaborator from that time, confirming it, then I would not go as far as to call them liars, but precisely because I do not believe they are liars, I'm pretty sure they won't do this because it that mix is near certain to be posthumous.

.

Also, I wish people would stop giving Neversin shit. Obviously some people hate his guts because he has tapes and won't leak them, and this is silly. Neversin is far from the only one on the Org to have such uncirculating tapes, for one thing, and it's each and every "elite" trader's prerogative to share what they have or not.

.

I certainly will not get into any flame war with any fan about any of this, though, like I said we are all in this together and we all want Prince's music as he left it.

Thanks for the clarity, looks like we're mostly on the same page.

BartVanHemelen said:

dustoff said:

Or maybe it was included because it's one of the most well-known Prince-penned songs performed by another artist?

.

One of the recent Michael Howe interviews suggests Jay-Z wanted this track.

Even so, the inclusion of "Jungle Love" strikes me as an utterly uncontroversial choice for this comp.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

databank said:

Moonbeam said:

See, that's the thing. I don't understand how anyone can KNOW that releases like "Nothing Compares 2 U" are fake. It just seems like speculation to me.

OK, I finally found the explanations I gave about this. It was actually earlier in this very thread

.

"Of course, I am always the first one to ask for evidence and sources so here's what I know:

.

- Two people who have connections with WB/the Estate have told me the same story, and they don't know each other. The first told it to me on a tacit confidential basis, the second one didn't care and that's when I began speaking about it openly. I of course have no absolute proof that these people have the connections they claim to have or that they're telling the truth, but I have every reason, from our private conversations to their public posts to what other people in the community have told me about them, to believe they're genuine. The first person told me that it was a mix from both P's and the Family's versions, while the second, who apparently has a closer source, later told me that P's version was from cassette and The Family's version from multitracks.

.

- Interestingly, Kares who is a sound engineer (again, I have no definitive proof of that but no reason to doubt it from our numerous conversations) claims he can definitely recognize a cassette "sound" on the 2018 version. I say "interestingly" because I had not told him that my second source had told me that before he came up with this theory here on the org.

.

- The Nilsen/Tudahl research have revealed that the recording sessions happened in that order Prince/Eric -> Paul/Susannah -> Clare Fischer. The Family background background vocals were recorded at the same time as Paul's lead vocals, and by the time Clare Fischer's strings were added, Prince's lead vocals were long gone. While not impossible, it seems very unlikely that super busy Prince would have bothered having an engineer retroactively adding the Family vocals and strings to his own version in 1985, talking about a song that had zero historical significance back then (before Sinead) and that he apparently never even considered releasing in this version after it became an international hit (when Miles Davis asked for a version of it, Prince told Eric to rerecord one from scratch instead of offering the original multi-tracks to Davis, and when Prince finally released it, it was a live cut).

.

- The mix is very, extremely different from both the original Family demo (streamed by Paul on his website in 2002 and widely bootlegged ever since) and every Prince song featuring strings from 85-86. In those early Clare Fischer collabs, Prince would mix the strings waaaaay much louder. On NC2U 2018, you can barely hear them by comparison. Overall and strings aside, the mix is quite different from Paul's 2002 version while the only musical difference between both tracks is the lead vocals. And of course the bootleg we have lacks both orchestra and Family vocals.

.

- And IIRC it was Alan Leeds who claimed a decade ago or so that P's original vocals had been erased from the multitracks, leading to the belief that no copy had survived until a cassette-sourced bootleg appeared 2 years ago or so. This story seems to corroborate everything we have above.

.

You may say this is all circumstantial evidence and testimonies by witnesses who may not be who they claim they are, and at the end of the day I'd have to agree with you. But I believe we have a solid case here, particularly if you add it to the apparent lack of care that WB and the Estate have displayed with other releases (I'm not gonna get into that here but so far there isn't a single posthumous release with WB that's been handled properly).

.

So this is my case. You may not be convinced and I'll respect that in lack of definitive proof, but I believe the case to be quite solid."

.

[Edited 6/7/19 3:39am]

Thanks for sharing this! I'm glad you acknowledge it's not definitive proof. How do we know the Family backing vocals were recorded at the same time as Paul's original? It's certainly plausible, but it also seems plausible that Prince could have had them record backing vocals over his lead vocal as he clearly intended the track to go to them.

databank said:

RicoN said:

Prince's demos will have BVs on them, they aer an intergral part of the song. What you're describing is an unfinished version and incomplete version, which may be of some interest but won't be a fair representattion of the song Prince was laying down.

Quit your moaning, you're worse than our lass.

Honestly I can't believe that, nor understand why fans are arguing about this. We should all stand together against the Estate messing with Prince tapes as a matter of principle, even if the result may be pleasant to hear. I'm baffled by the fact that some fans here don't care, or approve. And even if one isn't personally annoyed by it, they could at least understand why other fans are, it's no rocket science.

.

What Neversin said is that some of those mixes are fake. We know it is the case at least with NC2U so I don't see why it wouldn't with several other tracks. True, there's no harm in releasing Prince's last mix before the song was overdubbed and finished for release instread of an earlier, barebone mix, but the keyword here is Prince's last mix. Not Michael Howe's 2019 remix that uses Prince's last vocal mix and arbitrarily adds later overdubs from the released mix to "finish" or "polish" it. And they're not even doing a good job at it: the way the vocals and strings are mixed in NC2U 2018 do not even attempt to imitate the way they were mixed in the Family version. But regardless, good job or bad job, there shouldn't be any job at all. There is no need for it.

.

So seriously, everyone, we're together in this, why argue? We all love Prince's music, we all want it out, and when Prince passed the consensus among us (there were threads about it) was that Prince's unreleased material was to be released as such, not remixed by Justin Timberlake or Michael Howe for that matter. Let us not allow the Estate divide and conquer the community by arguing among ouselves while the Estate is trashing the vault, let's argue with the Estate and complain as consumers who feel cheated by a company not even saying what they do (because if at least they'd admit it, you'd know what you purchase, but I don't recall a single official statement admitting that NC2U was fake), not for the purpose of trashing them but in order to eventually get them to give us the product we want, i.e. Prince's music as he left it, and to have them be open and honest about any modification to the original tapes.

.

Peace

.
I am not arguing. I'm simply enjoying the music for now and yes, I am very happy to have these tracks.
.
Being happy and being able to enjoy it (to the point of 2 of them literally tearing me up) does NOT mean that I don't see the problems. There are many things I would've done differently and I agree with most issues raised by Neversin and you. It is obvious that at least some tracks (Manic Monday, Holly Rock definitely, but probably others too) are new or altered mixes and edits bother me a lot too, even if it's just something like the missing drum intro of Make-Up.
.

However, after all the crap for the past 3 years, my expectations weren't exactly running wild. I think it was a safe bet we were in for disappointments. But right now I'm just happy that at least for the first time in 3 years, we got 14 tracks straight from the vault.

.
We can go on and on about how a small team of us could do a far better job at curating the vault and producing releases and yes, I do believe we would and I also do believe Prince's legacy would deserve a far more respectful and knowledgable approach than what we're witnessing. But right now I'm listening to the music and for that, I'm happy.

.