RJOrion said:

Prince not letting Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis have creative freedom and then firing them is/was EASILY the worst business and music decision Prince ever made...all those hits Jimmy&Terry produced throughtout the 80s, 90s and even 2000s...janet jackson, new edition, sos band, sounds of blackness, human league, ralph tresvant, michael jackson, etc etc etc....all those iconic songs by those artists listed could have possibly belonged to P or his proteges...unimaginable what great music they could have produced together

I agree. And just to back up on why it was such a bad move, is because that move destroyed the Time. It was almost like he subconsiously was trying to railroad or lessen the success of the Purple Rain era. He had to know the success of the Time was also the tightness of the relationships.

I think how much bigger the Purple Rain era would have been with the Time and Vanity 6 on it. Why not pay Vanity that extra money... Why risk it. The music suffered.

PeteSilas said:

littlemissG said:

Do you think if Prince had a do over he would have built Paisley Park? Or a smaller version of it? It became an expense rather than a money maker that pretty much forced him into constant touring and releasing albums not stop because bills had to be paid. It is also quite a surprise to me that Graceland had to do major repairs to the heating and cooling systems before they opened it to the public. Then there is the still unused egg building. Was it over ambitious from the start? [Edited 6/22/18 7:42am]

it was a good idea, just overblown in my opinion. Studio fees were ridiculous and he was a guy who really didn't need all the folks that studios had to screw with his music. He should have done it his way, and he did it all the time too so it would have been expensive any way you cut it. I've heard his first album put him nearly a million in debt, i've heard lower figures too, but the point stands, it was expensive in those days and there were all these time constraints on recording too because it was priced by the hour. As a musician myself, i'd have to say I would do what he did, only on a much smaller scale and with fewer people. You do need solitude to do that kind of work, people are the biggest issue for me, i never get the privacy to do my work, not without chatter, people wanting to talk, people talking around me. so i'd do it on a much more limited basis myself. Then, I think the downsides to PP were it was his own world, with his own rules and that is never good for anyone. We all need limits and reminders of our own basic humanity, so as that one lady said in the police interview, he needed to stay out of PP at least in his last days. Too easy to isolate, to feel a false sense of comfort, with no one to point out any truth to him. It killed him.

Exactly...too much isolation. You hit it right on the head, Pete.

In terms of Prince's identity and branding Paisely Park studios were perfect - an ideal destination for such a genius. On a sonic level though I always felt the records he made at Sunset Sound , on those "souped-up boards" (as Prince described them), were better sounding. They felt a touch more "organic". While I adore the songwriting on Lovesexy it did sound like the first shift into a new, crunchier sounding Prince phase.

Sydney said:

In terms of Prince's identity and branding Paisely Park studios were perfect - an ideal destination for such a genius. On a sonic level though I always felt the records he made at Sunset Sound , on those "souped-up boards" (as Prince described them), were better sounding. They felt a touch more "organic". While I adore the songwriting on Lovesexy it did sound like the first shift into a new, crunchier sounding Prince phase.

Perfectly summed up. Both on a sonic and creative level, his records before Paisley were superior. There's something about limitations that pushes an artist to new heights. I'd much rather hear Prince recording in a home studio than on a horrible automated SSL desk.

I think The Egg might've been a bit much, but the idea of Paisley Park (studios, soundstage, wardrobe, offices) makes perfect sense if you're creating music and imagery 24/7.

I'll agree with a previous post, music made at Sunset Sound, etc. seemed a bit more organic/raw/grungy. I don't know if that's necessarily the soundboard/studio setup, or Prince changing over the years. Probably a bit of both.

20/20 Hindsight: do not build The Egg. Spend more money and care on The Vault and organizing it. Don't close the doors to outside musicians (Duran Duran, REM, etc.).

I may be a bad fan for not knowing this, but what the hell is The Egg?

MattyJam said:

Sydney said:

In terms of Prince's identity and branding Paisely Park studios were perfect - an ideal destination for such a genius. On a sonic level though I always felt the records he made at Sunset Sound , on those "souped-up boards" (as Prince described them), were better sounding. They felt a touch more "organic". While I adore the songwriting on Lovesexy it did sound like the first shift into a new, crunchier sounding Prince phase.

I said similar.

.

The Lovesexy phase was 'interesting'. Of course I enjoy the era, and what could have been listening to Rave Un2 the Joy Fantastic/Batman outtakes, even what Graffiti Bridge was to be prior to the Lovesexy band/Madonna split. But as soon as it started it was over.

SoulAlive said:

kewlschool said:

Prince fired Jam and Lewis early 80's. Late 80's Jam and Lewis where their own bosses. No way, would they work for Prince, other then a project to project approach. Prince would have made them promote Carmen Electra and other artists of that level, then blame them for the lack of sales!

Jam and Lewis liked being a part of the Prince camp.The problem was,they also wanted to produce other artists and bands,which Prince was against.I'm sure there could have been a compromise.Can you imagine all the potential hit songs that they could have given to Paisley Park artists? For example,imagine The Family getting their hands on "Human" (a major hit that J&L produced for the Human League)....or imagine Jill Jones getting a surefire hit single like "I Didn't Mean To Turn You On" (a major hit that J&L gave to Cherrelle) Let's be honest...the reason why most of the PP artists failed is because their albums simply lacked hits.

You know Prince worked in the idea of you work for me and me alone. And if you weren't available when he wanted your talents-he moved on to some one else.

rogifan said:

Yes. One thing he tweeted in late 15/early 16 was residency at Paisley Park. I believe Funkenberry also said he was planning a residency there for the summer. How awesome that would have been.

In theory and hindsight this sounds like it would have been too good to be true, but he was already kind of doing this with Paisley Park After Dark announcements. He was playing there and/or showing up when he felt like it. His fans were getting older and did not have the stamina or patience to wait in lines on a whim for a show at 2 AM. The last couple times I went in 2015 after strong innuendo that he would play after Paisley Park After Dark announcements, there were maybe 50 people at pp. It was sad to me after many years where that same innuendo would lead to hundreds of people waiting in lines down the block to get into pp.

[Edited 6/26/18 21:12pm]

Isn't it funny how Paisley Park had absolutely no paisley in it.

goosepumble said:

dreamer5 said:

goosepumble said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I agree. And just to back up on why it was such a bad move, is because that move destroyed the Time. It was almost like he subconsiously was trying to railroad or lessen the success of the Purple Rain era. He had to know the success of the Time was also the tightness of the relationships.

I think how much bigger the Purple Rain era would have been with the Time and Vanity 6 on it. Why not pay Vanity that extra money... Why risk it. The music suffered.

I agree with all of this.

SoulAlive said:

rdhull said:

LOL no he wasn't. His mystique includes the lack of being a savy business man after PR . MJ snuck in and purchased that Beatles etc catalogue. In the mid 80's. For 25 mil. The licensing alone was worth billions. Oh, and he gave Little Richard his masters etc..fo free. By 88, Prince tours were losing money (Lovesexy). I love prince probably more than anyone here but lets be in reality here.

lol,yeah it's kinda silly to say that Prince was a smart business man.There were at least two times in his career when he was having cash flow problems.The first was in 1988 during the 'Lovesexy' era (some of the US shows didn't sell out).The second time was in 1994.

The Lovesexy tour ended up being a little above even.
Please get your info straight before posting...

SoulAlive said:

kewlschool said:

Prince fired Jam and Lewis early 80's. Late 80's Jam and Lewis where their own bosses. No way, would they work for Prince, other then a project to project approach. Prince would have made them promote Carmen Electra and other artists of that level, then blame them for the lack of sales!

Jam and Lewis liked being a part of the Prince camp.The problem was,they also wanted to produce other artists and bands,which Prince was against.I'm sure there could have been a compromise.Can you imagine all the potential hit songs that they could have given to Paisley Park artists? For example,imagine The Family getting their hands on "Human" (a major hit that J&L produced for the Human League)....or imagine Jill Jones getting a surefire hit single like "I Didn't Mean To Turn You On" (a major hit that J&L gave to Cherrelle) Let's be honest...the reason why most of the PP artists failed is because their albums simply lacked hits.

Nice fantasy...
But imagine the thermonuclear-grade drama that would have ensued the signing of Janet to PP Records.

In a way, the real successful Prince's vanity project is... Janet Jackson's Control.
It screams 1999 production from almost every song. Jam and Lewis introduced
a commercial side to Prince's underground manics. But they did it with such commitment,
that they became, in a way, "Prince the Producer" better than Prince ever was, aside from his own records.

As much as I love him, here's a sad truth: the guy was too much in love with his navel
to properly produce anyone other than him. Databank is right, all side acts were Prince's visions,
and served first and foremost building his legend, musical qualities aside.

A talent scout he wasn't. Andy is cute as hell, Janelle too, but we're far from
the Stax/Volt or Motown female stars. Maybe the Garageband era doesn't allow
for such raw talents to emerge anymore. Still, there were more interesting acts to focus on,
especially if your name is Prince and you carry a mammoth legacy in pop music.

Again, Control as a Paisley Park Records album... It would have changed everything.
Of course, the timelines don't match.

[Edited 6/29/18 15:45pm]

bonatoc said:

SoulAlive said:

lol,yeah it's kinda silly to say that Prince was a smart business man.There were at least two times in his career when he was having cash flow problems.The first was in 1988 during the 'Lovesexy' era (some of the US shows didn't sell out).The second time was in 1994.

The Lovesexy tour ended up being a little above even.
Please get your info straight before posting...

Oh really? He wasnt having cashflow problems with the Lovesexy tour? A little above even seems like it.

rdhull said:

bonatoc said:

The Lovesexy tour ended up being a little above even.
Please get your info straight before posting...

Oh really? He wasnt having cashflow problems with the Lovesexy tour? A little above even seems like it.

Agree. But bankruptcy it was not. The tour may have been expensive,
but royalties kept on coming, steadily. Keep in mind that, even if the sales were not up to the big
blockbusters of the time, Prince made at least three times the money of any other stars,
no Patrick Leonard or Quincy Jones to share royalties with.

He certainly wasn't a poor businessman. He just believed he could reshape the industry, the public,
the way music is consumed. The real error was to try it with male or female photocopies of himself.
That's the trouble with his work pace. He thought going to the club from time to time
was enough to get the pulse, but being a producer requires much more than that.

Prince's work is very insular, and pretty hermetic.
It has rules, vocabularies and gimmicks very specific, and in the end
only nutcases like us had the patience of studying the whole picture.
The public only had glimpses with his singles, so imagine how little they cared about the latest PP production.

It was a good idea, poorly executed. Who's gonna come recording in the Midwest middle of nowhere?
Apologies to the Minnie residents, but L.A. or New York it isn't. These cities carry a heavy dose of danger
and excitement (at least they used to, in the 20th century) and the artists absorb it.
No much thrill to get, surrounded by corn fields. Madonna and R.E.M. played ball the first year,
but the enthusiasm quickly faded. Thank God for the Muppet Show.
Kermit and Peggy helped pay the bills for a while.

Then again, any business with a moody control freak as CEO
is a recipe for disaster in the long term. Talent scout is a full-time job.
You have to eat up hundreds of lousy concerts, listening to hours of crappy demos
before you find the next big thing. PP never got the human resources department it called for.

[Edited 6/29/18 16:22pm]

bonatoc said: