cloveringold85 said:

morningsong said:

If you wanna stir the pot. My question is why were those pills still around after the Moline incident, especially if Kirk was able to get him a legit prescription of a similar med?

.

Stir the pot? I'm only trying to have a conversation about something that is of importance, if anyone cares to discuss.

.

I find it odd that all those pills were laying around PP after the Moline emergency....very odd, and I have no idea why Prince would do that. Kirk knows exactly what was going on with Prince, because he had Rx for Percocet written in his name and was giving them to Prince. This is why Kirk hired a lawyer, because he's not going to answer questions.

Fentanyl was not the cause of what happened on the plane.

That's why people need to pay close attention to the narrative of what happened.

Fentanyl did not show up on the medical reports before the autopsy and the autopsy showed that there was no long term use prior to the fatal dose.

When you realize this you will start to get real upset.

muleFunk said:

Fentanyl was not the cause of what happened on the plane.

That's why people need to pay close attention to the narrative of what happened.

Fentanyl did not show up on the medical reports before the autopsy and the autopsy showed that there was no long term use prior to the fatal dose.

When you realize this you will start to get real upset.

You need to back this up Mule.

disch said:

-

One note too: The specific Percocets that were found (labeled A-349) were a mid-strength version (5mg; Percocet go up to 10mg). Some have wondered here why P would have taken black-market opioids when he possessed some legit ones. Maybe one theory: Those legit Percocets weren't strong enough for his needs.

[Edited 4/5/18 20:13pm]

My question was why was he obtaining illegal meds when he could have easily gotten the legit meds via Kirk or someone else. He could have gotten the Vicodin via his own name.

When you take into consideration that the Moline incident was a seperate thing from 4/21/2016

muleFunk said:

disch said:

-

One note too: The specific Percocets that were found (labeled A-349) were a mid-strength version (5mg; Percocet go up to 10mg). Some have wondered here why P would have taken black-market opioids when he possessed some legit ones. Maybe one theory: Those legit Percocets weren't strong enough for his needs.

[Edited 4/5/18 20:13pm]

My question was why was he obtaining illegal meds when he could have easily gotten the legit meds via Kirk or someone else. He could have gotten the Vicodin via his own name.

When you take into consideration that the Moline incident was a seperate thing from 4/21/2016

Everyone is assuming that he could have gotten these legally, but doctors have been withholding prescriptions for opioids for a lot of people (not just recently, either), especially if they believe there is concern of dependence or addiction. A lot of elderly and disabled clients that I work with have had their prescriptions cut off and they are referred to a pain management clinics. Pain management clinics will utilize PT (physical therapy), non-narcotics, and other forms of treatment for chronic pain. Or they will dispense a very minimum amount of opiods at the lowest possible dosage. If he had been using opioids for several years, it is possible that his prescribing doctor stopped giving him the medication, or was giving him medication that he felt just didn't help with the pain.

[Edited 4/5/18 21:05pm]

muleFunk said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Stir the pot? I'm only trying to have a conversation about something that is of importance, if anyone cares to discuss.

.

I find it odd that all those pills were laying around PP after the Moline emergency....very odd, and I have no idea why Prince would do that. Kirk knows exactly what was going on with Prince, because he had Rx for Percocet written in his name and was giving them to Prince. This is why Kirk hired a lawyer, because he's not going to answer questions.

Fentanyl was not the cause of what happened on the plane.

That's why people need to pay close attention to the narrative of what happened.

Fentanyl did not show up on the medical reports before the autopsy and the autopsy showed that there was no long term use prior to the fatal dose.

When you realize this you will start to get real upset.

will you share the 'autopsy' with us? we've all been waiting so patiently for our turn to read it. Please?

Some good points there. Fentanyl is fast acting, it sounds like, and fast to leave. I think the plane incident was probably fentanyl (maybe unknowingly) and they just didn't run the right tests to find it. Maybe that is why Dr Shulbarg was running tests..he figured P's OD was on something stronger than others thought. Is it possible P took quite a few of what he thought was milder pills (in an attempt to end it) because he had some kind of bleak epiphany after the 18th or 19th (he stopped tweeting around then and maybe stopped even making plans) and took quite a few pills (which became overkill due to them having fentanyl. Is it possible P thought he was dying since 2014 due to the way his body seemed to be overreacting to what he thought was much milder pain pills but he needed the pain pills so just thought maybe his fate was sealed. Maybe he couldnot understand why his hydrocodone was having devastating results and chucked it up to his body just breaking down. Maybe they had gotten more careful with the drugs and P dug out of an older stash in a time of desperation, thus the mess of pills in his house.

Hell, maybe Kirk was enabling the usage of what he thought were milder pills only for P to be deceiving him because P knew they were stronger. Maybe these massive conspiracy theories are just a way to explain away a series of errors, naivete, and ignorance on folks parts in P's little circle.

Think about it. P's money is still in probate, his vault ain't making a ton of money. If you are going to kill someone you may want to manipulate them or drug them to sign a flipping will making it easier to attain his money. Hell, if they had waited about 10 or 15 years, P's money might have gone to them just as easily. I just can't imagine any of these people being evil enough to kill Prince..maybe I am just naive myself but it seems far-fetched. Otherwise, why are the Rolling stones still walking around alive...why didn't someone taint their drugs years ago and collect.

benni said:

muleFunk said:

My question was why was he obtaining illegal meds when he could have easily gotten the legit meds via Kirk or someone else. He could have gotten the Vicodin via his own name.

When you take into consideration that the Moline incident was a seperate thing from 4/21/2016

Everyone is assuming that he could have gotten these legally, but doctors have been withholding prescriptions for opioids for a lot of people (not just recently, either), especially if they believe there is concern of dependence or addiction. A lot of elderly and disabled clients that I work with have had their prescriptions cut off and they are referred to a pain management clinics. Pain management clinics will utilize PT (physical therapy), non-narcotics, and other forms of treatment for chronic pain. Or they will dispense a very minimum amount of opiods at the lowest possible dosage. If he had been using opioids for several years, it is possible that his prescribing doctor stopped giving him the medication, or was giving him medication that he felt just didn't help with the pain.

[Edited 4/5/18 21:05pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 21:22pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 21:30pm]

Mulefunk, you're made many claims about things being in the autopsy etc. We've all seen the public autopsy summary and it makes no mention one way or the other of Prince's history with fentanyl (or any drug). Are you claiming you've seen that info in the full autopsy? if so, how did you access that document?

-

As for "fentanyl not showing up in the medical reports before the autopsy," which of his medical reports have you accessed and how? Or did you get that info from this AP article that states: "Tests on Prince prior to his death did not show fentanyl in his system, which means he wasn’t a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose sometime in the 24 hours before he died, the official said.

The official did not elaborate on those tests." That's not exactly the same thing.

-

muleFunk said:

cloveringold85 said:

.

Stir the pot? I'm only trying to have a conversation about something that is of importance, if anyone cares to discuss.

.

I find it odd that all those pills were laying around PP after the Moline emergency....very odd, and I have no idea why Prince would do that. Kirk knows exactly what was going on with Prince, because he had Rx for Percocet written in his name and was giving them to Prince. This is why Kirk hired a lawyer, because he's not going to answer questions.

Fentanyl was not the cause of what happened on the plane.

That's why people need to pay close attention to the narrative of what happened.

Fentanyl did not show up on the medical reports before the autopsy and the autopsy showed that there was no long term use prior to the fatal dose.

When you realize this you will start to get real upset.

disch said:

Mulefunk, you're made many claims about things being in the autopsy etc. We've all seen the public autopsy summary and it makes no mention one way or the other of Prince's history with fentanyl (or any drug). Are you claiming you've seen that info in the full autopsy? if so, how did you access that document?

-

As for "fentanyl not showing up in the medical reports before the autopsy," which of his medical reports have you accessed and how? Or did you get that info from this AP article that states: "Tests on Prince prior to his death did not show fentanyl in his system, which means he wasn’t a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose sometime in the 24 hours before he died, the official said.

The official did not elaborate on those tests." That's not exactly the same thing.

-

muleFunk said:

Fentanyl was not the cause of what happened on the plane.

That's why people need to pay close attention to the narrative of what happened.

Fentanyl did not show up on the medical reports before the autopsy and the autopsy showed that there was no long term use prior to the fatal dose.

When you realize this you will start to get real upset.

Exactly. And as we pointed out in the previous thread, Fentanyl has a very short half-life and the only way they could have determined whether he was a long time user or not would have been a hair sample. It could have left his system before any blood or saliva tests were done.

[Edited 4/5/18 21:24pm]

Right -- and there's no reason he would have had a hair test prior to his death.

-

The line from that AP story that says "he wasn’t a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose sometime in the 24 hours before he died" makes no sense. Obviously he took the fatal dose "sometime in the 24 hour before he died." He likely took it minutes before he died. That sentence makes me feel there was some sloppy reporting/writing going on here, and makes it hard to understand exactly what the "official" said.

benni said:

disch said:

Mulefunk, you're made many claims about things being in the autopsy etc. We've all seen the public autopsy summary and it makes no mention one way or the other of Prince's history with fentanyl (or any drug). Are you claiming you've seen that info in the full autopsy? if so, how did you access that document?

-

As for "fentanyl not showing up in the medical reports before the autopsy," which of his medical reports have you accessed and how? Or did you get that info from this AP article that states: "Tests on Prince prior to his death did not show fentanyl in his system, which means he wasn’t a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose sometime in the 24 hours before he died, the official said.

The official did not elaborate on those tests." That's not exactly the same thing.

-

Exactly. And as we pointed out in the previous thread, Fentanyl has a very short half-life and the only way they could have determined whether he was a long time user or not would have been a hair sample. It could have left his system before any blood or saliva tests were done.

[Edited 4/5/18 21:24pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 21:32pm]

Maybe the hospital didn't believe him when he said he only took a few pills and assumed that he took a crap load of vicodin because of Kirk's assumption...and they only ran tests for those pills and not the much stronger fentanyl. Thus. the reason the family are considering lawsuits. they sent P home thinking he was overdosing on two vicodin which was probably confusing as hell. After he was coldturkeyed from the narcan and his body was a wreck. Imagine the helpless and hopeless feelings he would have had as he was trying to hide his addiction and figure out why his dependence had gotten such over the top results.

benni said:

disch said:

Mulefunk, you're made many claims about things being in the autopsy etc. We've all seen the public autopsy summary and it makes no mention one way or the other of Prince's history with fentanyl (or any drug). Are you claiming you've seen that info in the full autopsy? if so, how did you access that document?

-

As for "fentanyl not showing up in the medical reports before the autopsy," which of his medical reports have you accessed and how? Or did you get that info from this AP article that states: "Tests on Prince prior to his death did not show fentanyl in his system, which means he wasn’t a long-time abuser of that drug, but likely took the fatal dose sometime in the 24 hours before he died, the official said.

The official did not elaborate on those tests." That's not exactly the same thing.

-

Exactly. And as we pointed out in the previous thread, Fentanyl has a very short half-life and the only way they could have determined whether he was a long time user or not would have been a hair sample. It could have left his system before any blood or saliva tests were done.

[Edited 4/5/18 21:24pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 21:41pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 21:44pm]

I don't know that they ran test to a ID the specific opioid in Moline. I think he'd have to consent to a test like that, and per the warrant he "refused treatment at the hospital," which make me think he would not have been down with tests of that nature.

purplerabbithole said:

Maybe the hospital didn't believe him when he said he only took a few pills and assumed that he took a crap load of vicodin because of Kirk's assumption...and they only ran tests for those pills and not the much stronger fentanyl. Thus. the reason the family are considering lawsuits. they sent P home thinking he was overdosing on two vicodin which was probably was confusing as hell. Then he was coldturkeyed from the narcan and his body was a wreck. This could have been massively confusing, painful and helpless feeling.

benni said:

Exactly. And as we pointed out in the previous thread, Fentanyl has a very short half-life and the only way they could have determined whether he was a long time user or not would have been a hair sample. It could have left his system before any blood or saliva tests were done.

[Edited 4/5/18 21:24pm]

Could he have gotten the tests there (thus Dr. Shulbarg's later visit) but didn't want to stick around in the hospital (due to privacy issues) to get the results and then the results came too late to do him any good. Another reason lawsuits might be forthcoming. Maybe they took their time sending them to his doctor..

disch said:

I don't know that they ran test to a ID the specific opioid in Moline. I think he'd have to consent to a test like that, and per the warrant he "refused treatment at the hospital," which make me think he would not have been down with tests of that nature.

purplerabbithole said:

Maybe the hospital didn't believe him when he said he only took a few pills and assumed that he took a crap load of vicodin because of Kirk's assumption...and they only ran tests for those pills and not the much stronger fentanyl. Thus. the reason the family are considering lawsuits. they sent P home thinking he was overdosing on two vicodin which was probably was confusing as hell. Then he was coldturkeyed from the narcan and his body was a wreck. This could have been massively confusing, painful and helpless feeling.

[Edited 4/5/18 21:48pm]

Interesting info, benni. To me this makes it seem very unlikely Percocet triggered his plane emergency, because that incident was an opioid OD and "it’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone [opioid] found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already." Nothing in the description of that night sounds like he was having major "acetaminphen issues" (abdominal pain and vomiting).

-

His OD was severe and sudden, so he really would have had to take a whole lot of Percocet pills all at once for that reaction, and that would have triggered those other problems first, apparantly.

benni said:

disch said:

Interesting. Realistically, I think Prince probably took few to none of those Percocets. The reason: I doubt his plane OD was on Percocet, because it would take an awful lot of 5mg Percocets to trigger a severe OD. And the rest of the week, it seems that he was in withdrawal (i.e., no or extremely minimal opioids) until ODed fatally on fentanyl (i.e., not legit percocets).

Huh. Just found this too:

Percocet Overdose – How Much Is Too Much?

The reason people abuse Percocet is for the narcotic oxycodone that helps manage pain. But Percocet only contains 2.5-10 mg of oxycodone and between 325 – 650 mg of acetaminophen, the active ingredient of Tylenol. Both can cause serious toxicity in the body. Percocet abuse will always pose the risk of death and overdose. This is why Percocet should only be taken in the doses recommended by your doctor. Snorting, injecting, chewing, or crushing Percocet increases your risk of overdose.

Acetaminophen overdose – More than 1000 mg of acetaminophen at one time won’t kill you, but will cause chronic liver damage if taken habitually. But at doses higher than 4000 mg per day, the acetaminophen in Percocet poisons you, causing severe effects such as vomiting and abdominal pain. More than 7000 mg of acetaminophen can kill you.

Oxycodone overdose – It’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already. It takes about 40 mg of oxycodone to overdose if you haven’t taken the medication before. At the lowest strength of Percocet, you’d need over 16 pills for the oxycodone to be dangerous, but you’d be well over the daily limit for acetaminophen poisoning and would need immediate medical attention.

Percocet Overdose Complications

The most dangerous complication of Percocet overdose is liver damage. It may take up to 12 hours for symptoms of Percocet overdose to occur, which is one reason Percocet abuse is so dangerous. You can experience Percocet OD symptoms as minor as stomach pain or as serious as a coma. But Percocet overdose needs to be treated immediately, to avoid potential liver failure and subsequent death. And by the time you notice symptoms, permanent damage may have already been done to your liver.


__________________________________________________________________________________


There is no way the plane incident occurred 12 hours following the concert. Wasn't it reported that he had taken the percocets after he finished the concert? In order for him to have OD'd on the percocets, he would have to have taken much earlier in the day. Wouldn't he?

[Edited 4/5/18 22:14pm]

But wasnt prince complaining of stomach problems and vomiting for months. That night he seemed alright though until the overdose. Its all so confusing.

disch said:

Interesting info, benni. To me this makes it seem very unlikely Percocet triggered his plane emergency, because that incident was an opioid OD and "it’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone [opioid] found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already." Nothing in the description of that night sounds like he was having major "acetaminphen issues" (abdominal pain and vomiting).

-

His OD was severe and sudden, so he really would have had to take a whole lot of Percocet pills all at once for that reaction, and that would have triggered those other problems first, apparantly.

benni said:

Huh. Just found this too:

Percocet Overdose – How Much Is Too Much?

The reason people abuse Percocet is for the narcotic oxycodone that helps manage pain. But Percocet only contains 2.5-10 mg of oxycodone and between 325 – 650 mg of acetaminophen, the active ingredient of Tylenol. Both can cause serious toxicity in the body. Percocet abuse will always pose the risk of death and overdose. This is why Percocet should only be taken in the doses recommended by your doctor. Snorting, injecting, chewing, or crushing Percocet increases your risk of overdose.

Acetaminophen overdose – More than 1000 mg of acetaminophen at one time won’t kill you, but will cause chronic liver damage if taken habitually. But at doses higher than 4000 mg per day, the acetaminophen in Percocet poisons you, causing severe effects such as vomiting and abdominal pain. More than 7000 mg of acetaminophen can kill you.

Oxycodone overdose – It’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already. It takes about 40 mg of oxycodone to overdose if you haven’t taken the medication before. At the lowest strength of Percocet, you’d need over 16 pills for the oxycodone to be dangerous, but you’d be well over the daily limit for acetaminophen poisoning and would need immediate medical attention.

Percocet Overdose Complications

The most dangerous complication of Percocet overdose is liver damage. It may take up to 12 hours for symptoms of Percocet overdose to occur, which is one reason Percocet abuse is so dangerous. You can experience Percocet OD symptoms as minor as stomach pain or as serious as a coma. But Percocet overdose needs to be treated immediately, to avoid potential liver failure and subsequent death. And by the time you notice symptoms, permanent damage may have already been done to your liver.


__________________________________________________________________________________


There is no way the plane incident occurred 12 hours following the concert. Wasn't it reported that he had taken the percocets after he finished the concert? In order for him to have OD'd on the percocets, he would have to have taken much earlier in the day. Wouldn't he?

[Edited 4/5/18 22:14pm]

I mean that a major Percocet OD -- enough for the opioid to cause him to pass out etc -- would also cause acute acetomenphin poisoning, it sounds like (vomiting etc.).

-

Whatever was going on with him in previous month seems different; the warrants make many mentions his "history of going through withdrawals" which can cause all kind of similar problems (flu-like symptoms, digestive issues etc).

purplerabbithole said:

But wasnt prince complaining of stomach problems and vomiting for months. That night he seemed alright though until the overdose. Its all so confusing.

disch said:

Interesting info, benni. To me this makes it seem very unlikely Percocet triggered his plane emergency, because that incident was an opioid OD and "it’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone [opioid] found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already." Nothing in the description of that night sounds like he was having major "acetaminphen issues" (abdominal pain and vomiting).

-

His OD was severe and sudden, so he really would have had to take a whole lot of Percocet pills all at once for that reaction, and that would have triggered those other problems first, apparantly.

[Edited 4/5/18 22:14pm]

purplerabbithole said:

But wasnt prince complaining of stomach problems and vomiting for months. That night he seemed alright though until the overdose. Its all so confusing.

disch said:

Interesting info, benni. To me this makes it seem very unlikely Percocet triggered his plane emergency, because that incident was an opioid OD and "it’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone [opioid] found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already." Nothing in the description of that night sounds like he was having major "acetaminphen issues" (abdominal pain and vomiting).

-

His OD was severe and sudden, so he really would have had to take a whole lot of Percocet pills all at once for that reaction, and that would have triggered those other problems first, apparantly.

[Edited 4/5/18 22:14pm]

According to the chef, Prince was having a lot of stomach issues leading up that fateful night. That would be indicative of someone that was using a lot of acetaminophen (Tylenol). If he was taking 7.5/500 of the Percocets, then 8 of those per day would reach the 4000 mg dosage of aspirin. If he felt he could handle 2 of those pills at a time, then he could have taken them every 6 hours and received that dosage of aspirin to cause his stomach issues. However, that would have been 15 mgs of oxycodone at a time and that is a high dosage, especially for someone Prince's size. He wouldn't have overdosed on the oxycodone if he was spreading them out like that through the day. But it would have been a high enough dosage, for anyone not used to taking them, that it could cause some stomach upset as well. I've taken the 7.5/500 before but always took one pill. Even with the one pill, it would cause me to feel as though I was overheating, and give me an upset stomach. The side effects, unfortunately at that time, was worth the relief from the pain I was in, but just barely. Usually, I would have to lie down and sleep it off, but at least it helped my pain enough to let me sleep! I hate taking that high of a dosage, though, and won't do it unless it is absolutely my last resort with dealing with the pain. I currently don't have health insurance, but do have chronic pain. I take Tylenol arthritis to deal with my pain because I can't afford to see a doctor. I have to watch the amount of Tylenol that I take closely. Since my pain can get severe enough at times, that I'm afraid of taking too much of it to deal with the pain.

disch said:

Interesting info, benni. To me this makes it seem very unlikely Percocet triggered his plane emergency, because that incident was an opioid OD and "it’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone [opioid] found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already." Nothing in the description of that night sounds like he was having major "acetaminphen issues" (abdominal pain and vomiting).

-

His OD was severe and sudden, so he really would have had to take a whole lot of Percocet pills all at once for that reaction, and that would have triggered those other problems first, apparantly.

benni said:

Huh. Just found this too:

Percocet Overdose – How Much Is Too Much?

The reason people abuse Percocet is for the narcotic oxycodone that helps manage pain. But Percocet only contains 2.5-10 mg of oxycodone and between 325 – 650 mg of acetaminophen, the active ingredient of Tylenol. Both can cause serious toxicity in the body. Percocet abuse will always pose the risk of death and overdose. This is why Percocet should only be taken in the doses recommended by your doctor. Snorting, injecting, chewing, or crushing Percocet increases your risk of overdose.

Acetaminophen overdose – More than 1000 mg of acetaminophen at one time won’t kill you, but will cause chronic liver damage if taken habitually. But at doses higher than 4000 mg per day, the acetaminophen in Percocet poisons you, causing severe effects such as vomiting and abdominal pain. More than 7000 mg of acetaminophen can kill you.

Oxycodone overdose – It’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already. It takes about 40 mg of oxycodone to overdose if you haven’t taken the medication before. At the lowest strength of Percocet, you’d need over 16 pills for the oxycodone to be dangerous, but you’d be well over the daily limit for acetaminophen poisoning and would need immediate medical attention.

Percocet Overdose Complications

The most dangerous complication of Percocet overdose is liver damage. It may take up to 12 hours for symptoms of Percocet overdose to occur, which is one reason Percocet abuse is so dangerous. You can experience Percocet OD symptoms as minor as stomach pain or as serious as a coma. But Percocet overdose needs to be treated immediately, to avoid potential liver failure and subsequent death. And by the time you notice symptoms, permanent damage may have already been done to your liver.


__________________________________________________________________________________


There is no way the plane incident occurred 12 hours following the concert. Wasn't it reported that he had taken the percocets after he finished the concert? In order for him to have OD'd on the percocets, he would have to have taken much earlier in the day. Wouldn't he?

[Edited 4/5/18 22:14pm]

I don't think it was Percocet OD the night of the plane incident either. According to item I had posted, it can take up to 12 hours before symptoms of a Percocet overdose appears. And there was no indication during the concert that he was on anything. Now, towards the end of the 10PM concert that night, he wasn't looking real well. I had moved closer to the stage and thought he looked grey, and did feel concerned, but I also put it down to the possible lighting. For him to have OD'd on the plane only a couple of hours later, then we should have seen some indication during the concert that he was on something, a lot of something. And it's just not there.

[Edited 4/5/18 22:50pm]

this makes sense. Perhaps, Prince's usage was mostly percocets but the acetaminophen was wrecking his liver and he knew it. He may not have known that the pills he was purchasing against doctor's wishes were stronger than he thought and OD'd on them that night on the plane. Like I said, maybe all they tested for was percocet or vicodin and didn't bother with other tests. The test results that he was waiting for might have been from the hospital but not the right tests to discover the tainted pills. Prince's liver might have been shot andmaybe he knew it and tried to OD on what he thought was Percocet but ended up overkilling himself with pills tainted with fentanyl. Although the cops don't think it was suicide maybe it is still considered homicide(by way of drug dealers who throw fentanyl in wrongly labeled pills) because Prince may have had a change of heart and attempted to rectify what he did when he entered the elevator. In other words, an intentional percocet OD could have been treatable, a fentanyl OD of that volume was most definitely not. I bring up suicide becuase I am not at the murder conspiracy stage and am trying to account for the massive amount found in his body.

benni said:

disch said:

Interesting info, benni. To me this makes it seem very unlikely Percocet triggered his plane emergency, because that incident was an opioid OD and "it’s also possible to overdose on the oxycodone [opioid] found in Percocet, but this requires taking enough Percocet that you’d be having issues with the acetaminophen already." Nothing in the description of that night sounds like he was having major "acetaminphen issues" (abdominal pain and vomiting).

-

His OD was severe and sudden, so he really would have had to take a whole lot of Percocet pills all at once for that reaction, and that would have triggered those other problems first, apparantly.

[Edited 4/5/18 22:14pm]

I don't think it was Percocet OD the night of the plane incident either. According to item I had posted, it can take up to 12 hours before symptoms of a Percocet overdose appears. And there was no indication during the concert that he was on anything. Now, towards the end of the 10PM concert that night, he wasn't looking real well. I had moved closer to the stage and thought he looked grey, and did feel concerned, but I also put it down to the possible lighting. For him to have OD'd on the plane only a couple of hours later, then we should have seen some indication during the concert that he was on something, a lot of something. And it's just not there.

[Edited 4/5/18 22:50pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 23:09pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 23:12pm]

purplerabbithole said:

this makes sense. Perhaps, Prince's usage was mostly percocets but the acetaminophen was wrecking his liver and he knew it. He may not have known that the pills he was purchasing against doctor's wishes were stronger than he thought and OD'd on them that night. Like I said, maybe all they tested for was percocet or vicodin and didn't bother with other tests. The test results that he was waiting for might have been from the hospital but not the right tests to discover the tainted pills. Prince's liver might have been shot andmaybe he knew it and tried to OD on what he thought was Percocet but ended up overkilling himself with pills tainted with fentanyl. Although the cops don't think it was suicide maybe it is still considered (homicide by way of drug dealers who throw fentanyl in wrongly labeled pills) because Prince may have had a change of heart and attempted to rectify what he did when he entered the elevator. In other words, a percocet OD could have been treatable, a fentanyl OD was most definitely not. I bring up suicide becuase I am not at the murder conspiracy stage and am trying to account for the massive amount found in his body.

benni said:

I don't think it was Percocet OD the night of the plane incident either. According to item I had posted, it can take up to 12 hours before symptoms of a Percocet overdose appears. And there was no indication during the concert that he was on anything. Now, towards the end of the 10PM concert that night, he wasn't looking real well. I had moved closer to the stage and thought he looked grey, and did feel concerned, but I also put it down to the possible lighting. For him to have OD'd on the plane only a couple of hours later, then we should have seen some indication during the concert that he was on something, a lot of something. And it's just not there.

[Edited 4/5/18 22:50pm]

[Edited 4/5/18 23:09pm]

I can't go with the idea of suicide. Everything that we know about Prince, regardless of how he was feeling, goes against the idea of suicide. Suicide is considered to be self-murder, and is against God's law, Prince just wouldn't have done it, no matter what was going with him.

As for murder, I'm of the opinion that those that mailed him the pills, gave him the pills, are responsible. I believe it would be more of a case of manslaughter than murder. I don't think that anyone had it in their head to kill Prince. However, involuntary manslaughter by supplying him the pills that contained the fentanyl I can see. Now, if it's shown they knew the pills had fentanyl in them, then by all means, it could be murder.

Regarding the amount of fentanyl in his system, if he was buying the pills online through the black market, there is no regulation on how they cut those pills. One pill could have been enough to put an extremely large dose of fentanyl into his system, depending upon how they cut them. If he had thought they were okay, he could have taken two pills and it would have been even worse. Without those regulations to guarantee that what you are buying on the black market is safe, then you run the risk of getting pills that have huge amounts of fentanyl in them, or pills with barely any fentanyl in them, or none at all. You run the risk of some pills having exceedingly high acetaminophen or oxycodone, but none of them will be consistent in their ingredients.

I dunno. It doesnt matter how much I try and make sense of it all, I am always led back to the conclusion that it is just a sad story of someone losing control and making irrational decisions. We are all trying to understand why this and that happened the way it did. And the more we grasp at strawers, the more we concoct elaborate stories to explain the non-connected dots.

For whatever reasons, Prince embarked on a self medicating journey that led to addiction. I have no doubt he didn't want it this way and like any addict he probably felt like he had it under control. And also like millions of people in the same boat, what started as a medical neccesity eventually turned into an uncontrollable monster.

We cant make head nor tale of some of the circumstances leading up to his death. We are trying to fit round pegs into square holes to try and create a narrative that makes sense. But the truth is, trying to decipher the why's and how's of an addict's actions is pointless. Why reach for the same pills that nearly killed you a week prior? Why switch off the security cameras? Why send out cryptic emails about your possible demise to loved ones? Why buy drugs from illicit sources knowing the dangers? Why put your clothes on backwards? Why refuse any medical help? Why keep everything from your friends and family?

At the end of the day there are no straight answers to any of those questions. Addiction is not rational.

Personally I think Prince was trying to get to grips with it. I think he tried withdrawing on his own several times. I think that the pills he was taking were fucking up his liver and stomach. He knew all this yet still OD'd twice in a week. Nothing untoward to look at here. The nonsensical decisions, the fucked up timelines and the weird actions of others all stems from addiction losing control and the addicted losing the fight.

For me, knowing that Prince pushed himself to the very end for the sake of his art is the silver lining to this dark cloud. Prince knew the dangers he was facing taking the pills he did. He knew where it might end up. Yet he did it to keep going. To get one last album or one last tour when he really should have his feet up retired and recouperating. The pain he was in, the damage he caused to his body over trhe years necessitated that he slow down and take a long rest. But that wasn't Prince. So he pushed and pushed and took whatever was required to keep pushing... Better to burn out than fade away.

.

Everything we know about Prince? That is like picking up a brand new Russian Doll and only taking off the two outer layers and then presuming to know exactly what the innermost layer would look like. We also never thought the man would overdose on drugs either. I don't know about Prince being so anti-suicide due to religion. his religion also would have been against taking his son off the machines. sex outside of wedlock, and even birth control in the first place. I think he could justify suicide to himself because his religious (although conservative) is actually rather forgiving. It believes in a second resurrection in wich every sinner (no matter when or presumably how they died as long as they didn't openly denounce and go to war with God) gets to come back to the earth and live forever after redeeming themselves. ALso he might justify it on a personal level by saying that his body's ability to be an instrument of God was no longer (it was broken down) and therefore he had no reason to stick around. Also, he was dealing with a drug addiction in a serious bout of withdrawal. Suicide is not inconceivable to those who are going through massive pain and addiction. They will do anything to escape their pain even rationalizing an action that seems to go against their beliefs.

benni said:

purplerabbithole said:

this makes sense. Perhaps, Prince's usage was mostly percocets but the acetaminophen was wrecking his liver and he knew it. He may not have known that the pills he was purchasing against doctor's wishes were stronger than he thought and OD'd on them that night. Like I said, maybe all they tested for was percocet or vicodin and didn't bother with other tests. The test results that he was waiting for might have been from the hospital but not the right tests to discover the tainted pills. Prince's liver might have been shot andmaybe he knew it and tried to OD on what he thought was Percocet but ended up overkilling himself with pills tainted with fentanyl. Although the cops don't think it was suicide maybe it is still considered (homicide by way of drug dealers who throw fentanyl in wrongly labeled pills) because Prince may have had a change of heart and attempted to rectify what he did when he entered the elevator. In other words, a percocet OD could have been treatable, a fentanyl OD was most definitely not. I bring up suicide becuase I am not at the murder conspiracy stage and am trying to account for the massive amount found in his body.

[Edited 4/5/18 23:09pm]

I can't go with the idea of suicide. Everything that we know about Prince, regardless of how he was feeling, goes against the idea of suicide. Suicide is considered to be self-murder, and is against God's law, Prince just wouldn't have done it, no matter what was going with him.

As for murder, I'm of the opinion that those that mailed him the pills, gave him the pills, are responsible. I believe it would be more of a case of manslaughter than murder. I don't think that anyone had it in their head to kill Prince. However, involuntary manslaughter by supplying him the pills that contained the fentanyl I can see. Now, if it's shown they knew the pills had fentanyl in them, then by all means, it could be murder.

Regarding the amount of fentanyl in his system, if he was buying the pills online through the black market, there is no regulation on how they cut those pills. One pill could have been enough to put an extremely large dose of fentanyl into his system, depending upon how they cut them. If he had thought they were okay, he could have taken two pills and it would have been even worse. Without those regulations to guarantee that what you are buying on the black market is safe, then you run the risk of getting pills that have huge amounts of fentanyl in them, or pills with barely any fentanyl in them, or none at all. You run the risk of some pills having exceedingly high acetaminophen or oxycodone, but none of them will be consistent in their ingredients.

[Edited 4/6/18 3:29am]

[Edited 4/6/18 3:32am]

There are answers somewhere (maybe not all of them but a lot more than we are getting).

rogifan said:

purplerabbithole said:

purplerabbithole said:

Everything we know about Prince? That is like picking up a brand new Russian Doll and only taking off the two outer layers and then presuming to know exactly what the innermost layer would look like. We also never thought the man would overdose on drugs either. I don't know about Prince being so anti-suicide due to religion. his religion also would have been against taking his son off the machines. sex outside of wedlock, and even birth control in the first place. I think he could justify suicide to himself because his religious (although conservative) is actually rather forgiving. It believes in a second resurrection in wich every sinner (no matter when or presumably how they died as long as they didn't openly denounce and go to war with God) gets to come back to the earth and live forever after redeeming themselves. ALso he might justify it on a personal level by saying that his body's ability to be an instrument of God was no longer (it was broken down) and therefore he had no reason to stick around. Also, he was dealing with a drug addiction in a serious bout of withdrawal. Suicide is not inconceivable to those who are going through massive pain and addiction. They will do anything to escape their pain even rationalizing an action that seems to go against their beliefs.

benni said:

I can't go with the idea of suicide. Everything that we know about Prince, regardless of how he was feeling, goes against the idea of suicide. Suicide is considered to be self-murder, and is against God's law, Prince just wouldn't have done it, no matter what was going with him.

As for murder, I'm of the opinion that those that mailed him the pills, gave him the pills, are responsible. I believe it would be more of a case of manslaughter than murder. I don't think that anyone had it in their head to kill Prince. However, involuntary manslaughter by supplying him the pills that contained the fentanyl I can see. Now, if it's shown they knew the pills had fentanyl in them, then by all means, it could be murder.

Regarding the amount of fentanyl in his system, if he was buying the pills online through the black market, there is no regulation on how they cut those pills. One pill could have been enough to put an extremely large dose of fentanyl into his system, depending upon how they cut them. If he had thought they were okay, he could have taken two pills and it would have been even worse. Without those regulations to guarantee that what you are buying on the black market is safe, then you run the risk of getting pills that have huge amounts of fentanyl in them, or pills with barely any fentanyl in them, or none at all. You run the risk of some pills having exceedingly high acetaminophen or oxycodone, but none of them will be consistent in their ingredients.

[Edited 4/6/18 3:29am]

[Edited 4/6/18 3:32am]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Prince wasn't a JW through most of those things. At one point, prior to becoming a JW, or studying as a JW, a lot of his religion was Eastern philosophy intermingled with Christianity. As deeply as he felt about God, I just do not and will never believe, that he could murder himself.

Rebeljuice said:

I dunno. It doesnt matter how much I try and make sense of it all, I am always led back to the conclusion that it is just a sad story of someone losing control and making irrational decisions. We are all trying to understand why this and that happened the way it did. And the more we grasp at strawers, the more we concoct elaborate stories to explain the non-connected dots.

For whatever reasons, Prince embarked on a self medicating journey that led to addiction. I have no doubt he didn't want it this way and like any addict he probably felt like he had it under control. And also like millions of people in the same boat, what started as a medical neccesity eventually turned into an uncontrollable monster.

We cant make head nor tale of some of the circumstances leading up to his death. We are trying to fit round pegs into square holes to try and create a narrative that makes sense. But the truth is, trying to decipher the why's and how's of an addict's actions is pointless. Why reach for the same pills that nearly killed you a week prior? Why switch off the security cameras? Why send out cryptic emails about your possible demise to loved ones? Why buy drugs from illicit sources knowing the dangers? Why put your clothes on backwards? Why refuse any medical help? Why keep everything from your friends and family?

At the end of the day there are no straight answers to any of those questions. Addiction is not rational.

Personally I think Prince was trying to get to grips with it. I think he tried withdrawing on his own several times. I think that the pills he was taking were fucking up his liver and stomach. He knew all this yet still OD'd twice in a week. Nothing untoward to look at here. The nonsensical decisions, the fucked up timelines and the weird actions of others all stems from addiction losing control and the addicted losing the fight.

For me, knowing that Prince pushed himself to the very end for the sake of his art is the silver lining to this dark cloud. Prince knew the dangers he was facing taking the pills he did. He knew where it might end up. Yet he did it to keep going. To get one last album or one last tour when he really should have his feet up retired and recouperating. The pain he was in, the damage he caused to his body over trhe years necessitated that he slow down and take a long rest. But that wasn't Prince. So he pushed and pushed and took whatever was required to keep pushing... Better to burn out than fade away.

.

Occam's Razor.

I agree that the idea that every.single.thing about his death will ever make perfect and total sense to all of us is wishful thinking. Even in the best of circumstances, much in life is a mystery and we can't completely understand the thoughts and reasons of other people (hell sometimes I don't even understand my own!) -- especially when we ultimately "know" those people only though a carefully crafted puplic persona.

-

Some of Prince's behaviors were probably fairly typical of someone struggling with dependence/addiction; others were unique to his very unusual station in life, which made his choices perhaps different than what people like us might be inclined to make.

-

I dunno. It doesnt matter how much I try and make sense of it all, I am always led back to the conclusion that it is just a sad story of someone losing control and making irrational decisions. We are all trying to understand why this and that happened the way it did. And the more we grasp at strawers, the more we concoct elaborate stories to explain the non-connected dots.

.

[Edited 4/6/18 8:31am]

purplerabbithole said:

Everything we know about Prince? That is like picking up a brand new Russian Doll and only taking off the two outer layers and then presuming to know exactly what the innermost layer would look like. We also never thought the man would overdose on drugs either. I don't know about Prince being so anti-suicide due to religion. his religion also would have been against taking his son off the machines. sex outside of wedlock, and even birth control in the first place. I think he could justify suicide to himself because his religious (although conservative) is actually rather forgiving. It believes in a second resurrection in wich every sinner (no matter when or presumably how they died as long as they didn't openly denounce and go to war with God) gets to come back to the earth and live forever after redeeming themselves. ALso he might justify it on a personal level by saying that his body's ability to be an instrument of God was no longer (it was broken down) and therefore he had no reason to stick around. Also, he was dealing with a drug addiction in a serious bout of withdrawal. Suicide is not inconceivable to those who are going through massive pain and addiction. They will do anything to escape their pain even rationalizing an action that seems to go against their beliefs.

Thank you for saying this and I agree completely. I find it frustrating when people make assumptions about what another person 'definitely would do' or 'definitely wouldn't do'. It seems presumptious and unfair to say what another person would or wouldn't do or what is going through their mind at any given time because the truth is, no one EVER REALLY KNOWS what's going on in another's mind. Everyone's reactions and actions are different in response to prolonged pain/suffering or to situations that cannot, or even just seemingly cannot, be changed, and these responses or actions might even be in direct contradiction to the person's apparent personal beliefs. And we're talking about Prince - a person who was a living contradiction and who, all his life, made choices and decisions that were often baffling to anybody looking in from the outside, especially in regards to his religious beliefs and his personal relationship with God. I agree with you, purplerabbithole, about how Prince may have rationalized a choice of suicide in regards to God; he believed in a loving, forgiving God and if he (Prince) reached that horrible point where all he wanted was escape from the pain and suffering and being unable to make his body do what he needed and wanted it to do, then...well, it's my opinion that discounting the possibility of suicide by saying "it's just something he wouldn't do" is rather flimsy. No disrespect intended towards anyone else's personal thoughts and opinions, but I just feel it's not right to ever claim to know what another person would or wouldn't do, especially when it's someone as complex and enigmatic as Prince, and even more so when you throw in prolonged physical pain and probably other factors none of us as fans are privvy to. Thanks for reading.