I have 24 tracks so we might as well fill them up.

noobman said:

These are little things that annoy me.

One thing that annoys me a bit if using a lot of keyboards on hard rock tracks. Like Endorphin Machine. He doubles the guitar riff with keyboards, which feels unnecessary to me. Prince likes to double guitar and keyboard a lot. I like it sometimes but not always. It gives a synthesized feel.

Chaos and Disorder was an album I felt could have been more stripped down as a rock and roll album. He used keyboard and horns in spots where I thought it was a bit too much.

Another thing is use of vocals by background vocalists. Like Jam of the Year.... that "how howwww... howwww howwwahowwww... annoys the heck out of me. If it wasn't there I'd love the song. "Into the light" is another song with those extra vocals.

No, no, no, no, no NO.

Rosie Gaines's backing vocals on Into The Light are the best part of the song - I get chills just thinking about it.

[Edited 3/7/18 0:08am]

dump, dum dumdumdum CLAP = 1000 tracks


actually maybe being able to that should considered a strength

MattyJam said:

noobman said:

These are little things that annoy me.

One thing that annoys me a bit if using a lot of keyboards on hard rock tracks. Like Endorphin Machine. He doubles the guitar riff with keyboards, which feels unnecessary to me. Prince likes to double guitar and keyboard a lot. I like it sometimes but not always. It gives a synthesized feel.

Chaos and Disorder was an album I felt could have been more stripped down as a rock and roll album. He used keyboard and horns in spots where I thought it was a bit too much.

Another thing is use of vocals by background vocalists. Like Jam of the Year.... that "how howwww... howwww howwwahowwww... annoys the heck out of me. If it wasn't there I'd love the song. "Into the light" is another song with those extra vocals.

No, no, no, no, no NO.

Rosie Gaines's backing vocals on Into The Light are the best part of the song - I get chills just thinking about it.

[Edited 3/7/18 0:08am]

Indeed.

MattyJam said:

noobman said:

These are little things that annoy me.

One thing that annoys me a bit if using a lot of keyboards on hard rock tracks. Like Endorphin Machine. He doubles the guitar riff with keyboards, which feels unnecessary to me. Prince likes to double guitar and keyboard a lot. I like it sometimes but not always. It gives a synthesized feel.

Chaos and Disorder was an album I felt could have been more stripped down as a rock and roll album. He used keyboard and horns in spots where I thought it was a bit too much.

Another thing is use of vocals by background vocalists. Like Jam of the Year.... that "how howwww... howwww howwwahowwww... annoys the heck out of me. If it wasn't there I'd love the song. "Into the light" is another song with those extra vocals.

No, no, no, no, no NO.

Rosie Gaines's backing vocals on Into The Light are the best part of the song - I get chills just thinking about it.

[Edited 3/7/18 0:08am]

Ah ok. Different strokes for different folks. I could do without it.

soladeo1 said:

RJOrion said:

his only production weakness was wasting his valuable time, efforts, and resources producing exotic girlfriends and side-chicks who had minimal (if any) talent...on another related noted, if truth be told, Mayte was a lousy dancer, as well

Hahahaha! This! There would be Prince, knee-deep in writing and recording mountains of brilliant FUNK and POP and BALLADRY, only to pull away from the recording counsul to assist a barely musical L.H.P.O.A (Latest Hot Peice Of Ass) to "sing" or warble" a bunch of tunes that, if left on Prince's plate, would be additional classics...but that sadly left on the latest "Vagina 10" album are total snoozefest duds...

TrivialPursuit said:

RJOrion said:

his only production weakness was wasting his valuable time, efforts, and resources producing exotic girlfriends and side-chicks who had minimal (if any) talent...on another related noted, if truth be told, Mayte was a lousy dancer, as well

i could see what you mena with the electras etc.,, but mayte was a pro wasn't she? not that i ever paid a lot of attention.

soladeo1 said:

RJOrion said:

his only production weakness was wasting his valuable time, efforts, and resources producing exotic girlfriends and side-chicks who had minimal (if any) talent...on another related noted, if truth be told, Mayte was a lousy dancer, as well

Hahahaha! This! There would be Prince, knee-deep in writing and recording mountains of brilliant FUNK and POP and BALLADRY, only to pull away from the recording counsul to assist a barely musical L.H.P.O.A (Latest Hot Peice Of Ass) to "sing" or warble" a bunch of tunes that, if left on Prince's plate, would be additional classics...but that sadly left on the latest "Vagina 10" album are total snoozefest duds...

i still don't know how he had time to juggle all those women, one woman is enough to screw me up and make me non-productive.

RJOrion said:

his only production weakness was wasting his valuable time, efforts, and resources producing exotic girlfriends and side-chicks who had minimal (if any) talent...on another related noted, if truth be told, Mayte was a lousy dancer, as well

was it to get the pussy...as a payback for getting pussy...or trying to help newbies...???

luvsexy4all said:

RJOrion said:

his only production weakness was wasting his valuable time, efforts, and resources producing exotic girlfriends and side-chicks who had minimal (if any) talent...on another related noted, if truth be told, Mayte was a lousy dancer, as well

was it to get the pussy...as a payback for getting pussy...or trying to help newbies...???

had to be a combo of things, it wasn't always talent was it? Just the way men are, one of the darker aspects of most of my heroes. Women are a weakness for them. Or rather, I come to think of it as wanton ego is the weakness because usually they just use women to feed their voracious egos.

PeteSilas said:

RJOrion said:

PeteSilas said:

i could see what you mena with the electras etc.,, but mayte was a pro wasn't she? not that i ever paid a lot of attention.

the last part of your statement answered your own question...after all, who couldnt have paid attention to the amazing Cat Glover?...Mayte left no stylistic impressions onstage because she looked amateurish, unfunky, and unnecessary, from a performance perspective...

i guess, i'm not dance expert and never really thought too much of anyone dancing outside of Prince. he wasn't great either but he was good and fun to watch.

I personally disagree with anything having too many layers or being overproduced except for a few tracks on C&D that I think would have been stronger without horns or keys. I fell in love with P's music in the first place because it was overcrowded. Now I can understand that other people feel otherwise, but I guess we love P's music for different fundamental reasons.

.

Obviously, a producer is someone who provides expertise and a second opinion. Prince had expertise but as an artist it is extremely difficult to second-opinion yourself. It's possible on some records he could have benefitted from such a thing but given that I'm happy with most albums as they are I don't have that feeling too much. Of course, if the purpose had been to remain in the charts at all cost then yes, a producer would have been much helpful, but artistically speaking I think Prince was doing fine overall. The only case where I think he really would have needed someone else's opinion and expertise is Kamasutra, because while containing a lot of good ideas, it sounded like a cartoonish caricature of contemporary music (contemporary in the sense of contemporary orchestral music in the tradition of Western classical music).

.

Now, when it came to producing other people that was an entirely different matter. Prince wasn't much of a producer: he'd just either shape you into whatever he wanted you to be if you were a side project (which made for great music but unhappy artists), or give you songs that he'd already recorded and leave you to do whatever you wanted with them (as he did with all those artists he gave songs to until 1993). Anything he'd give to other acts was just another Prince tune, but he couldn't adjust to an artist's needs or personality. Hell, even though he didn't even write the tracks, GCS 2000 sounds more like a Prince record than a Larry Graham record!! Things began to change (quite unexpectedly) with Superconductor. While certain tracks are still very typical Prince tracks, some others sound, well, generic. He moved forward with that with Back In Time: it hardly sounds like a Prince record at all, it's again pretty generic nu-soul and, with proper marketing, that album could probably have been popular with fans of Amy Whinehouse or Nicole Willis. I'm not specifically fond of that record, maybe precisely because it doesn't sound so much like Prince, but I have to admit that for the first time in his life, he really did the job and put his skills at the service of another artist's vision, style and talents. I find it all the more tragic that he passed so soon because it seems he was eager to go on producing younger artists and it would have been quite interesting to see where that would have led

Not necessarily a flaw but he liked to turn everything up LOUD. But if you've got a lot going on track number-wise it can easily become boomy or clusterfucked. Listen to Kanye West's dark twisted fantasy album as an example of overproduction imo.

Eric Leeds said about Lovesexy "I thought it was going to be a great album, but when i heard the final mixes i was disappointed. I thought he had just completely overproduced the music. I think an artist like Prince should be constitutionally limited to 24 tracks at the most. When an artist tends to get a little unsure of himself, that is when he starts piling up the tracks."

I don't personally agree but then i've not heard Lovesexy... Naked. Albums i find slightly overproduced are Musicology, 3121, and The Gold Experience even though I love it.

noobman said:

These are little things that annoy me.

One thing that annoys me a bit if using a lot of keyboards on hard rock tracks. Like Endorphin Machine. He doubles the guitar riff with keyboards, which feels unnecessary to me. Prince likes to double guitar and keyboard a lot. I like it sometimes but not always. It gives a synthesized feel.

Chaos and Disorder was an album I felt could have been more stripped down as a rock and roll album. He used keyboard and horns in spots where I thought it was a bit too much.

Another thing is use of vocals by background vocalists. Like Jam of the Year.... that "how howwww... howwww howwwahowwww... annoys the heck out of me. If it wasn't there I'd love the song. "Into the light" is another song with those extra vocals.

100% with ya on the keyboard - it ruined Fury, Shhhh, When U Love Somebody, Gold, and more.

.

Another thing he overused, especially during the Gold-era was the "I don't know how to finish this song, how about a brief solo from everyone!"

.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Not necessarily a flaw but he liked to turn everything up LOUD. But if you've got a lot going on track number-wise it can easily become boomy or clusterfucked. Listen to Kanye West's dark twisted fantasy album as an example of overproduction imo.

Eric Leeds said about Lovesexy "I thought it was going to be a great album, but when i heard the final mixes i was disappointed. I thought he had just completely overproduced the music. I think an artist like Prince should be constitutionally limited to 24 tracks at the most. When an artist tends to get a little unsure of himself, that is when he starts piling up the tracks."

I don't personally agree but then i've not heard Lovesexy... Naked. Albums i find slightly overproduced are Musicology, 3121, and The Gold Experience even though I love it.

IDK, I respect Eric and I'm divided on that matter because on one hand I think Lovesexy is incredible because it's such a mess, but on the other hand I prefer the barebone version of The Line. I don't think it's necessarily better than the overdubbed version because that one is also quite awesome, but they both deliver a very different message, which is quite incredible because both have the same lyrics and basic tracks, and I'm more receptive to the original's message. This being said, I don't think the whole of Lovesexy would have worked if it'd been like the original Line. I wasn't there but I don't think it's all over the place because Prince was insecure, I think it's all over the place because Prince was all over the place in his mind.

after not listening to lovesexy for awhile and then listening to it, it was just like not listening to parade and then listening to it. it was really great it was very dense though and i guess a lot of the horns etc.., were pointless.

Examples of "Endorphinmachine" were given. And while I absolutely have an eternal hard-on for that song, I can also recognize oodles of keyboard layers and the brash tone to it. Live, it's wonderful. On record, it's really good, but it feels a bit like standing in a parking lot of semi-tractor trailers and they all suddenly turn their lights on and blow their horns simultaneously. I'm all for a shock n' awe in music, but at some point, one gets over/de-sensitized to thing like that aurally. The balance of sparse elegance vs thick-like-lava gluttony disappears. In "Endorphinmachine"'s defense, I think it was Jim Walsh who said the scream in "Endorph" and the guitar solo in "Gold" are both Prince searching - hard - for something new in his life (not just his music). It's a man on a mission who gives no fucks.

There's something very "Aerosmith" about this song and yeah, I get the lady boner for this one too. The analogy is (to me) a very precise description. But yet, I think the song needs something more

[Edited 3/9/18 14:09pm]

[Edited 3/10/18 7:15am]

also, personally, i think people are picky, they are picky with food and they are picky with music so most of the stuff people complain about even if i could see they are flaws, they don't take away from the music MOST of the time. As I've said, some of the greatest music of the rock and roll era was recorded on primitive equipement and the stuff holds up fine today it takes alot to destroy a good song and a good vibe on a good song.

Mintchip said:

I don't love Prince's use of sound effects to flesh out songs.

Sometimes it was witty, like the 'thank you' on "Take Me With You", (i guess that could be a lyric).

More often it was weird, like the elephants and god knows what on "Lady Cab Driver", or the laser beams on "the breakdown".

And worst of all, when the sound was a literal illustration of the lyric that preceded it, as on "Chaos and Disorder" or "Dion".

The dolphin in "Animal Kingdom". The cereal eating in "Joint 2 Joint". The SWAT team on "Bob George". The cartoon noises on "Peach". Never exactly your favorite part of the song, you know?

[Edited 3/5/18 16:06pm]

[Edited 3/5/18 16:24pm]

I see your point but you gotta go with it.
I mean it's his vision. I wouldn't remove a single seagull or church bell from LCD.
Paisley Park Remix's Zoo must give you the skin rash...

The cereal and lollipop ("What's My Name") lead vocal takes,
are you kidding me? There are among the best stuff he did.
I can see some can get on your nerve.
The subway arriving at the end of "Last December" is icky.

"Bob George"? Are you kidding me?
There's not a second of "Bob George" that needs clean(s)ing.

I need the wind in "God (vocal)".
I need every single noise in "All The Critics Love U In New York".
Heck, I'll even have the gong that closes Controversy's side A.

Naaa, it's a take it or leave it.
"Chaos And Disorder" is cartoonish because it's a way
for Prince to get away with some deep truth all crypted.
I want the humour. Let me have the klaxons of "Walk Don't Walk".
Crickets chirping, water rushing, horny dolphins...

[Edited 3/9/18 14:40pm]

LadyLayla said:

Examples of "Endorphinmachine" were given. And while I absolutely have an eternal hard-on for that song, I can also recognize oodles of keyboard layers and the brash tone to it. Live, it's wonderful. On record, it's really good, but it feels a bit like standing in a parking lot of semi-tractor trailers and they all suddenly turn their lights on and blow their horns simultaneously. I'm all for a shock n' awe in music, but at some point, one gets over/de-sensitized to thing like that aurally. The balance of sparse elegance vs thick-like-lava gluttony disappears. In "Endorphinmachine"'s defense, I think it was Jim Walsh who said the scream in "Endorph" and the guitar solo in "Gold" are both Prince searching - hard - for something new in his life (not just his music). It's a man on a mission who gives no fucks.

There's something very "Aerosmith" about this song and yeah, I get the lady boner for this one too. The analogy is (to me) a very precise description. But yet, I think the song needs something mor

[Edited 3/9/18 14:09pm]

The connoisseurs will know that the first rough take of Endorphinmachine is the one.
It's genuine spit. The gold-coated version, well, it's take-it-or-leave-it.

Like the mix of "Dolphin", which is pretty odd, kinda off-balance.
Yet in the ad lib, the mix proves phenomenal.

Prince's weaknesses production-wise...
God he had none.
I personally forgive him for the gold-plated soul stuff,
he went from something as dry as "When U Were Mine"
to the last minute of "Adore", from "Something In The Water"
to "Groovy Potential", to "Kiss" from one cello-overdubbed stadium anthem echoing for the ages?


Are we talking about the guy that came up with the sound of "The Glamorous Life"?
"Sign O’ The Times"? "She's Always In My Hair"? "For You"?

I begin to suspect some listen to Prince
mostly on crappy desktop speakers.
Adjust your EQ, people. Something don't compute.

The guy proved he was one of the best rock arrangers/producers around, on his 3rd album. Third album.
Don't start me on the sound and production of the first two Time albums.
"Parade"? Skipper went after Clare, not the other way around.
Get A Grip. LadyLayla is right on point.

[Edited 3/9/18 15:03pm]

In defence of "The Gold Experience", it requires a very high end audio system.
That makes it a bourgeois album, it's boombastic.
You need the headroom, basically you need the Westlake Audio speakers of PP's Studio A.

It's so already ready for FM, that you may have to turn off the loudness button,
readjust your EQ, feel comfortable. But yeah, the album is all shiny and loud.

Still, when you get to comfort and mood, "Gold" is one, maybe the best over-produced pop anthem there is.
The chords layers and textures going in the background, the double guitar/synth note...
No one achieved such a gigantic sound (for better or worse).

To me, "The Exodus Has Begun" is still the best 64-tracks-all-filled thing there is.
Again, in perfect listening conditions, no extra reverb,
if headphones, good ones, and above all a good source.

I actually like the "overproduced" stuff for the most part and really dig the "layering" that Prince was always adding. I hear new stuff every time, especially with the headphones and most of it works fine. 1999 is a great example.

Songs like Judas SMile, What's My Name and Love 2 the 9's are so dense that i find them challenging somehow. My ownly complaint with him production wise was that often stuff became "tinny" or "too slick" and not as organic as they might have been. Rave and Emancipation come to mind. Also "Fury" which was totally nuetered on 3121 for some reason. That song was blistering on SNL.

databank said:

I personally disagree with anything having too many layers or being overproduced except for a few tracks on C&D that I think would have been stronger without horns or keys. I fell in love with P's music in the first place because it was overcrowded. Now I can understand that other people feel otherwise, but I guess we love P's music for different fundamental reasons.

Same. I posted before I read your post but, yeah. To my mind, 1999 is the best example of this and it was the album that hooked me in. A lot of the songs are structurally simple, especially the funk tracks, but when you smoke a bowl and get some hedphones going you can hear so many other things going on.

I always used to listen to a new album TWO WAYS: Once in the car on the way home and then later at night with a hit or two and full volume on the headphones. Those little extras used to blow me away and always came it at the right spot somehow. Often they were subtle; like seasoning.

Women

herb4 said:

databank said:

I personally disagree with anything having too many layers or being overproduced except for a few tracks on C&D that I think would have been stronger without horns or keys. I fell in love with P's music in the first place because it was overcrowded. Now I can understand that other people feel otherwise, but I guess we love P's music for different fundamental reasons.

Same. I posted before I read your post but, yeah. To my mind, 1999 is the best example of this and it was the album that hooked me in. A lot of the songs are structurally simple, especially the funk tracks, but when you smoke a bowl and get some hedphones going you can hear so many other things going on.

I always used to listen to a new album TWO WAYS: Once in the car on the way home and then later at night with a hit or two and full volume on the headphones. Those little extras used to blow me away and always came it at the right spot somehow. Often they were subtle; like seasoning.

blackguitarist pointed that out, he was right, i never really noticed all that stuff, i did notice how simple a riff 1999 was, very simple, as was the melody. At that time though there was still space and emptiness in the music it gave the impression to me that the artist was alone and isolated and creating an alternate universe, the same feeling I got when I listened to Elvis' sun sessions.

Nasalhair said:

Overproduction, definitely. Too many layers of keyboards, particularly on his material from the 90s onwards, often smothering the guitars so everything sounded like a wall of synthetic goo. Compare how a song like "Fury" sounded when played live to how it was on album. I always wished he'd had someone to hold him back, reducing the number of tracks and overdubs, and leaving more rough edges and real sounds in his studio albums. Sadly it didn't happen though.

.

I agree. In the mid to later part of the 90s, Prince seemed to have lost focus. I did not care for the "Prince Rap" era at all. It did not suit him. He was all over the place.