OldFriends4Sale said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I noticed by the 90s what Prince was saying / directing did not pull me in anymore. It was just some cool music at times. I've said for a long time, after the 80s Prince did not direct or translate what was happening in society anymore. the 90s especially had a lot of social change and cultural restructuring happening. And he seemed really removed from it. By 1988/89-1990 Prince seemed to have taken on this 'my music is religion' idea. And I think that kind of thought pattern put his vision of out scope. That little back in forth between him and Susan Rogers in the 2000s is a good example.

.

Michael's saving grace was that he didn't change much. He style/look was sorta the same from Thriller to Bad to Dangerous etc he just added more stuff. The glove the jackets the shiny sox etc he continued using those imagery throught his career. So it was almost like what Prince did from 1980-1988. But just over longer periods of time. Also MJ wasn't 'over exposed'. But MJ also had the Motown legacy. He was working in the industry since he was a kid.

.

Madonna did a very good job of translating what was happening in the world throught most of her career. She probably LIVE more than MJ and Prince, who seemed to sequester themselves into their own hubble. Her 90s period was like a 2nd heightening of her superstardom from Justify My Love - Erotica - Evita - Ray of Light. And then in the 2000s her Confessions on the Dancefloor period was HUGE too. She again was in night clubs promoting her album and music, places like the Roxy, dancing 'with' the club goers all night etc And she was HUGE on promotion in a way Prince seriously lacked. I think being a woman also helped her in a way women are more easily open to hearing and feeling things in ways men have to fight to express.
.
Prince seemed to fight against himself for a long time.

purplerabbithole said:

thank your for the perspective. Image, appearance and lack of good promotion did effect his career much more than the quality of his work. He was hit and miss and at times a trend chaser, but compared to whom. Many artists are like tht and still remain relevant. MJ, despite his image, had a strong and steady fanbase that was rather forgiving and his music remained easily available. After his death, he was one of the best selling dead artists ever. Prince career choices (strange distribution of his music (limited releases of better songs etc) , becoming an indepdendent artist, inconsistency, slave on his face, OTT clothes even as he got older, later aversion to youtube...(all of these things are factors in his career trajectory.) I sometimes wonder if Prince's image as MJ's competition hurt him as well. People not knowledable enough about Prince just assuming that he was a second rate MJ.

Good point about Madonna. I am not a big Madonna fan but Ray of LIght was a damn fine album. the only one other than maybe "Like A Prayer" that I think was a truely great album. Ray of LIght is one of the only albums of Madonna's that I owned I believe.

I don't want to turn this discussion into a discussion on Michael Jackson, but c'mon, he looks like a completely different person in, say, the "Thriller" and "Remember The Time" videos. I get your point about him recycling the same ideas and performing the old hits on his tours the same way, but he certainly took big risks with his looks in general.

novabrkr said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I noticed by the 90s what Prince was saying / directing did not pull me in anymore. It was just some cool music at times. I've said for a long time, after the 80s Prince did not direct or translate what was happening in society anymore. the 90s especially had a lot of social change and cultural restructuring happening. And he seemed really removed from it. By 1988/89-1990 Prince seemed to have taken on this 'my music is religion' idea. And I think that kind of thought pattern put his vision of out scope. That little back in forth between him and Susan Rogers in the 2000s is a good example.

.

Michael's saving grace was that he didn't change much. He style/look was sorta the same from Thriller to Bad to Dangerous etc he just added more stuff. The glove the jackets the shiny sox etc he continued using those imagery throught his career. So it was almost like what Prince did from 1980-1988. But just over longer periods of time. Also MJ wasn't 'over exposed'. But MJ also had the Motown legacy. He was working in the industry since he was a kid.

.

Madonna did a very good job of translating what was happening in the world throught most of her career. She probably LIVE more than MJ and Prince, who seemed to sequester themselves into their own hubble. Her 90s period was like a 2nd heightening of her superstardom from Justify My Love - Erotica - Evita - Ray of Light. And then in the 2000s her Confessions on the Dancefloor period was HUGE too. She again was in night clubs promoting her album and music, places like the Roxy, dancing 'with' the club goers all night etc And she was HUGE on promotion in a way Prince seriously lacked. I think being a woman also helped her in a way women are more easily open to hearing and feeling things in ways men have to fight to express.
.
Prince seemed to fight against himself for a long time.

I don't want to turn this discussion into a discussion on Michael Jackson, but c'mon, he looks like a completely different person in, say, the "Thriller" and "Remember The Time" videos. I get your point about him recycling the same ideas and performing the old hits on his tours the same way, but he certainly took big risks with his looks in general.

No, I'm not talking about his physical person.

He went from looking like African American MJ to Multiracial MJ to Euro Elizabeth Taylor Diana Ross MJ

but the look ie the style of dress etc even a lot of his band members and their style remin of the Victory tour look.

rogifan said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

If U look at his career up to 1996 the Gold Experience... Prince always promote the new music fully along with other hits and such. After WB starting with Emancipation(the album he was born to make) he rarely promoted the new music. 3 discs of music from his 1997 album and he probably only did 5 songs at the most in the concerts. And after that it seemed he just relaxed on the 'hits'
.
By 1999/2000 he was doing the Paisley Park Celebrations and believe as a result we started hearing more covers following in his shows(I could be wrong on that) ONA/Rainbow Children was the one album he really promoted live. This is the album that showed Prince was really inspired. But after that again, not much promotion of the current album songs.

That’s why I preferred shows like North Sea Jazz or Montreux. Even with 3EG we got more than just the early 80s hits (though I was never really a fan of the sampler set). After the WB split I honestly don’t think Prince gave 2 you know whats about album sales. I’m sure he was happy if something sold well and yes I think he cared about things being counted accurately and fairly but I don’t think album sales was a big deal for him. Look at the Super Bowl. A lot of artists use that event for promotion. I believe Bruce Springsteen has a deal with Walmart around the time he did the Super Bowl. Prince didn’t use that event to promote anything other than good music/musicianship.

yep

I've always enjoyed the off night shows from way back.

I didn't care too much for the Paisley Park Celebrations, but they seemed fun.

and Purple Rain had to be played that day, that was like a 'whole world watching U' event, you have to 'slay' your anthem song on that show

CAL3 said:

purplerabbithole said:

I forgot about Come. Talk about an underrated album. Maybe truely ahead of its time. I have been listening to some of it today. I kind of love most of it. I don't think any of his albums were filler. I think he pegged them that way so he wouldn't have to account for any negative reaction to the album and he could approach them in a faster looser way. It probably gave him a freedom to express anger or a darker side of his persona (and WB was just a general kind of target.) That being said, a real company behind those projects might have gotten them more attention and encouraged Prince to tighten up the albums a bit more. I think there are good things about both albums (its subjective obviously. Chaos adn Disorder might feel like filler to those who dislike the album more than to those who do not.)

.

Underrated? It was a deliberately patchy, subpar, slipshod, grabbag of material.

.

Ahead of its time? In what way? Certainly not musically in any quantifiable way. It was a harbinger of things to come because it turned out not to be the last patchy, subpar, slipshod grabbag of material he would release.

.

Prince was his own worst enemy once the conflict with WB began. Seriously, he dumped 'Come' on them like it was a pile of trash - and didn't do much to promote it. He did himself no favors in those years.

.

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with liking "Come" as an album, I like some of the songs on there too.

I totally agree.When Come was released in the summer of '94,I was disappointed.It's not a terrible album,just a mediocre one.

All I have to say is the guy really needed someone to answer to in those later years. Maybe staying on WB would've helped. Keeping Susan Rogers on board would've definitely helped too. It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that Prince doing things entirely on his own just wasn't for his own good. Wendy & Lisa were crucial for him reaching the peak he did, and he never found that kind of chemistry again. It showed.

OldFriends4Sale said:

annalizer said:

laurarichardson said: I agree, but also, by 86' music had drastically changed and this is when he started the fallout with WB. I think he was really hurt when the public didn't respond to ATWINAD after the success of PR and used WB as the scapegoat. So, whether or not he would've been better off with WB is a toss up. I would say the one thing he'll always be respected for is that he was a "true" all around artist and not just a performer.

I believe what Prince was doing and the level of maturity in the music and videos could have helped Prince traverse the changing scenes. I mean the music really jumped levels and time lanes by 1984 but the music coming out of the Parade Flesh Dream Factory period/sessions was serious 'grown folk' music.

.

The problem with both ATWIAD & Parade was not the quality of music, but the lack of proper promotion. Proper promotion for ATWIAD in that even thought it was seriously Purple Rains fraternal twin, it was a very new direction of sound. It needed good promotion. The Raspberry Beret video winning the award it did, showed it had the potential. Purple Rain being very strong songs also had the Purple Rain movie. If there were no videos connected, the movie was enough. But the PR album also had a full on tour, with many other shows/performances. Around the World in a Day just need an album focused Europe America Canada (not tour but series of 'small club like' shows) I could see Prince & the Revolution @ a Music Hall / Carnegie or such doing Condition of the Heart. Showcasing the look they are known for. Prince sitting at a grand piano, full band with Susannah Jill BrownMark or St Paul on vocals. Suzi Katyama Novi Novog David Coleman on added strings, Jonathan Melvoin Sheila E/Juan Escovedo on added percussions. and then Old Friends 4 Sale

.

The Masquerade Ball Birthday show 6.7.1985 should have been bigger more publicized, and with more songs from the ATWIAD Romance 1600 the Family albums promoting all 3

.

I could see shows that consisted of a set list like
.
1. America

2. Ronnie Talk 2 Russia

3. Paisley Park

4. She's Always In My Hair

5. Temptation

6. God the Love theme

7. the Dance Electric

.

or

.

1. Uptown

2. Erotic City

3. Paisley Park

4. Around the World in a Day

5. Baby I'm a Star

6. Pop Life

7. maybe preview Strange Relationships

.

or do a show that consists of the Family Sheila E followed by Prince & the Revolution doing about 3song from the new album along with 1 or 2 from previous

.

Show the new videos by each prior to the show Screams of Passion, Sister Fate, Raspberry Beret

.

more photoshoots from 1985

the Nice 1985 show televised etc

.

the album(s) just needed the right promotion to help people grasp the music

.

Parade the music was perfect. The problem was the movie. Prince wasn't an actor to hold the movie. It needed band performances (Who did not expect to see performance scenes). And I'm not talking about in similar fashion to Purple Rain. Prince as a struggling artist among France bourgeois, with his band of musicians... the fringe groups. @ Mary Sharons birthday party Day & Night. Jill Jones w/the Revolution performing Mia Bocca, while Christopher worked the floor, then takes the stage for New Position. the Family during the Day party doing High Fashion.

Christopher taking Mary to the other side of town to a club where Sheila E and band are doing A Love Bizarre, the Girls & Boys video actually being a part of the movie, the Revolution in the background doing Alexis de Paris etc

.

Parade could have been on a similar level of Purple Rain. It was very mature timeless music that has stood the tests of time. People like DeAngelo and Jill Scott just to name a few who were students of the Parade music.

I have listened to Parade twice during the past week and what strikes me about Parade is how timeless and distinct it sounds. It doesn't sound like 1986. Madonna's True Blue sounds very mid-80s. Janet Jackson's Control sounds very mid-80s. Def Leppard's Hysteria sounds very mid-80s. MJ's Bad sounds very mid-80s. Those are all great albums, but they are also very mid-80s. If I didn't know that Parade was from 1986, I wouldn't know when the hell that album was released!

.

"Venus de Milo" and "Do U Lie" could have come from 1940. "Life Can Be So Nice," "Christopher Tracy's Parade," and "New Position" sound very 80s. "Sometimes It Snows in April" could have come from the 70s, 90s, or 2000s, but doesn't sound 80s at all. "I Wonder U" has a very hip-hop and Middle Eastern vibe to it and could have come from the 90s or even the early 2000s. "Kiss" is like WDC due to the lack of a baseline and sounds so different from other hit songs of the same time period. The only clue dating "Kiss" is Prince mentioning Dynasty. "Anotherlover" and "Mountains" are timeless sounding...they sound like Prince & Revolution to me, because that's what they are.

.

"Kiss" is one of Prince's signature songs, but other than that, Parade didn't have any major top 40 radio hits. I don't know why "Mountains" wasn't a bigger hit...it's such a great song, totally G rated and unoffensive, and Prince looks great in the video. I was born in 86, so I don't know what the promotion was like for Parade, but it definitely sounded different than anything else from 1986.

[Edited 7/19/17 17:17pm]

kingricefan said:

You might be jumping the gun, so to speak. I have very little faith in WB. Nobody at WB now ever dealt with Prince while he was under their CONtract, meaning it's a whole new generation of worker bees running things at WB. I'd rather see the Estate take full control of Prince's music and release it all thru NPG records and make it available for download and sell actual cd's along with that. WB is not going to honor his legacy as the Estate would be able to. So far we've only had from WB another 'greatest hits' package and the PR deluxe re-mastered. Yes, 'they'gave us some Vault gems but it sure could have been a whole lot more.

Yes thats true now but the question is asking about continuing with WB's at the time of the split in the 90s.

I think the answer is yes because it took years for Prince to escape the focus on eccentricity rather than just being about the music. By then it was too big a monumental task by which time Prince in businesss terms had become a nostalgia act more than an artist releasing new music. obviously Prince capitalised on this.

there was no continuity

A better question would be would Prince's career been more respected if he only released an album every 4 years.

He didn't "answer" to Wendy and LIsa (more like the other way around). Also, how does a musican 'answer' to his sound engineer?

NOt diminishing the chemistry he had with those ladies, but who knows if the magic would have lasted indefinitely even if they all continued working with Prince.

svenjolly said:

All I have to say is the guy really needed someone to answer to in those later years. Maybe staying on WB would've helped. Keeping Susan Rogers on board would've definitely helped too. It's becoming increasingly apparent to me that Prince doing things entirely on his own just wasn't for his own good. Wendy & Lisa were crucial for him reaching the peak he did, and he never found that kind of chemistry again. It showed.

another extenuating factor. I agree. Too much music means each album isn't treated like an event. It also means he might not have been as good at editing himself.

muleFunk said:

A better question would be would Prince's career been more respected if he only released an album every 4 years.

What I never could understand (and still can't) about the time he signed that $100 million Warner Bros. resigning deal back in 1992 was why he didn't take less upfront but be granted some sort of control over his master tapes. Then again, I imagine he tried then to make that happen, but those were the days when cds were still selling, so I doubt WB would have budged about giving Prince the rights to his master tapes back.

It's always easier to theorize and speculate after that fact, of course. It's just wild to me that the deal was for that much money with no return clause for his master tapes. Take $50 million upfront and get a backend deal in place to secure the rights to your master recordings.

All in all, Warner Bros. certainly facilitated and fostered his growth throughout his catalog he recorded and released through them. Days when labels still invested time and several albums into the viability of an artist, before dropping them like a hot sack of s*** after their first single doesn't go anywhere.

I'll always be grateful and have great memories going to get a new Prince album every year on the day of release. Had a sweet run from 'Around The World In A Day' in '85 to '"The Symbol Album"' in '92. Having a blast enjoying the predictability of Prince's unpredictability from album to album. He always reminded me of David Bowie in that respect: anything goes because they decided that's what their parameters were to work with.

I think the answer is yes because it took years for Prince to escape the focus on eccentricity rather than just being about the music. By then it was too big a monumental task by which time Prince in businesss terms had become a nostalgia act more than an artist releasing new music. obviously Prince capitalised on this.

Good point about escaping the eccentric image. Imagine if Prince had gone to war against WB by changing his name to a more conservative name like Roger Nelson and wore flannel and blue jeans. I wonder if that (along with a bit more musical self-editing) might have helped people to take him more seriously in 1994/95..

jcurley said:

kingricefan said:

You might be jumping the gun, so to speak. I have very little faith in WB. Nobody at WB now ever dealt with Prince while he was under their CONtract, meaning it's a whole new generation of worker bees running things at WB. I'd rather see the Estate take full control of Prince's music and release it all thru NPG records and make it available for download and sell actual cd's along with that. WB is not going to honor his legacy as the Estate would be able to. So far we've only had from WB another 'greatest hits' package and the PR deluxe re-mastered. Yes, 'they'gave us some Vault gems but it sure could have been a whole lot more.

Yes thats true now but the question is asking about continuing with WB's at the time of the split in the 90s.

I think the answer is yes because it took years for Prince to escape the focus on eccentricity rather than just being about the music. By then it was too big a monumental task by which time Prince in businesss terms had become a nostalgia act more than an artist releasing new music. obviously Prince capitalised on this.

there was no continuity

purplerabbithole said:

another extenuating factor. I agree. Too much music means each album isn't treated like an event. It also means he might not have been as good at editing himself.

muleFunk said:

A better question would be would Prince's career been more respected if he only released an album every 4 years.

Perhaps.. I still appreciate that he was even able to get one new album out a year. Most labels would not be down for that. Warner Bros. compromised as much as they could considering.

I agree with what someone said about the people he had around him at the time, such as Susan Rogers, the Revolution, Cavallo, Fargnoli and Magnoli... As much of a genius as Prince was (/is, as music = immortality), he had a circle of people around him to ground him as much as was possible, as well as people who inspired him to create some of his all-time best work.

He was still a young guy at the time he disbanded the Reviolution, stopped working with people like Susan Rogers.. I applaud his sense of guts to take risks, but I was sad to see them all gradually go away.. It was a weird time. Not long after, hip-hop and gangsta rap became that next big wave not unlike what the whole 'Purple Rain' phenomenon was to '84 and '85.

Speaking of gangsta rap, it trips me out: the main riff to "Wonderful Ass". For something originally recorded in '83 or '84 it sounds like a riff Dr. Dre would have whipped for NWA or on his own album 'The Chronic'.

This is way too much revisionist history for my blood.

Im surprised the breakup with WB wasnt sooner. Prince was Prince. He was always going to change and evolve as a musician.....his own way. Dude was destined to change bands, change sounds, be selfish (which is a good thing) and just flat out change his mind on the fly regarding albums, singles, religion, etc...

In 1996 Spin Magaizine had a listing of the best albums of 1996 and the author listed Chaos and Disorder and said (paraphrasing) that if an unknown had released this album it would be lauded but because it was Prince it was dismissed. That was Prince post WBR. Prince was competing against himself and most so called fans dismissed the music not that the music was subpar but because it wasn't the Prince with the Revolution or SOTT or Lovesexy.

Then around 93ish good solid music started fading out for the one hit wonder machine of Hip Hop and Rap which was taylor made for the post downsizing era of the recording industry. The bean counters took over all record companies and started kicking out the Music Biz people. By the end Napster and other filesharing sites destroyed the entire industry.

Well, I think Lovesexy is some of his best work. W and L weren't there to ground him for that album. I don't know what I feel about all the focus being on the Revolution, Susan etc as the sole reason he didn't get mainstream respect. I think its a factor but it is also highly subjective (kined of like saying "I like that music better so therefore everyone else should".) Considering things like rap becoming huge, I am not sure his anything-goes style of funk/rock/r&b/pop he had been laying down (with jazz, new wave, and psychedelic influences) would have continued to be as relevent even with all those talented folks around him. It might have been a bit more consistently critically acclaimed but I am not sure young folks would have listened to it especially if Prince's look/image and other choices didn't jell with the youth culture or the public at large. It was treacherous ground, the early 90's. For example, let's say Prince had kept all those people you mentioned and still went to war against WB, would they have encouraged or discouraged it? Could he had insisted that W and L step aside on some tracks so that P could feature a rapper in his band (in order to be relevent with rap fans etc.). W and L might have argued against it but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have still done whatever he wanted. It also doesn't mean that new jack swing wouldn't have found its way into his sound (with or without Susan, or Wendy or whomever.) So many factors to consider beyond just this small group of talented folks who supported his work at that time. Being inspired and even musically supported by talented people doesn't mean Prince still didn't run the show. He chose those folks, he chose what ultimately they were allowed to contribute, etc. He chose to move on (in most of the cases it was his choice.). No one ever considers that Prince could have kept the same folks on board only to listen to them less and less. That is what pop stars do.

spookyelectric23 said:

purplerabbithole said:

another extenuating factor. I agree. Too much music means each album isn't treated like an event. It also means he might not have been as good at editing himself.

Perhaps.. I still appreciate that he was even able to get one new album out a year. Most labels would not be down for that. Warner Bros. compromised as much as they could considering.

I agree with what someone said about the people he had around him at the time, such as Susan Rogers, the Revolution, Cavallo, Fargnoli and Magnoli... As much of a genius as Prince was (/is, as music = immortality), he had a circle of people around him to ground him as much as was possible, as well as people who inspired him to create some of his all-time best work.

He was still a young guy at the time he disbanded the Reviolution, stopped working with people like Susan Rogers.. I applaud his sense of guts to take risks, but I was sad to see them all gradually go away.. It was a weird time. Not long after, hip-hop and gangsta rap became that next big wave not unlike what the whole 'Purple Rain' phenomenon was to '84 and '85.

Speaking of gangsta rap, it trips me out: the main riff to "Wonderful Ass". For something originally recorded in '83 or '84 it sounds like a riff Dr. Dre would have whipped for NWA or on his own album 'The Chronic'.

[Edited 7/20/17 7:19am]

[Edited 7/20/17 7:22am]

[Edited 7/20/17 7:41am]

It seems you are right.

DarkKnight1 said:

This is way too much revisionist history for my blood.

Im surprised the breakup with WB wasnt sooner. Prince was Prince. He was always going to change and evolve as a musician.....his own way. Dude was destined to change bands, change sounds, be selfish (which is a good thing) and just flat out change his mind on the fly regarding albums, singles, religion, etc...

Good point.

I remember some more recent interview in which the interviewer heard I think AOA or something, and he said it would probably sell better under unknown name. And Prince agreed.

muleFunk said:

In 1996 Spin Magaizine had a listing of the best albums of 1996 and the author listed Chaos and Disorder and said (paraphrasing) that if an unknown had released this album it would be lauded but because it was Prince it was dismissed. That was Prince post WBR. Prince was competing against himself and most so called fans dismissed the music not that the music was subpar but because it wasn't the Prince with the Revolution or SOTT or Lovesexy.

Then around 93ish good solid music started fading out for the one hit wonder machine of Hip Hop and Rap which was taylor made for the post downsizing era of the recording industry. The bean counters took over all record companies and started kicking out the Music Biz people. By the end Napster and other filesharing sites destroyed the entire industry.

Fury said:

He got a media bump when went the indie route/- good bad or indifferent, TAFKAP had people talking about him again. He just couldn't sustain the magic of TMBGITW

Couldn't?
I think he was beyond sustaining stuff. He just embodied whatever persona he felt like. He gained his freedom a long time ago, and he could have built upon the same Purple Rain recipes for years.
Here's a guy who never repeated When Doves Cry or Kiss, not because he couldn't do it, but because it was pointless to him. And still sold records beyond my understanding of the world as it is. But hey, there are shades of purple.

I'm very thankful Prince lived his life to the fullest, Black Muse / Revelation is a diptych that would never have come to my ears otherwise. Such inner peace, such generosity.
At some point he just wished for peace of mind, and I think the made peace with himself in the last years. The cameos, the appearances.

And my Skipper is one that leaves this world thinking pills and records are both equally medecine, so there. Christopher goes to his dealer AND the Wrecka Stow. I sure wish records would have suffice.

Another thing that is not being mentioned here is Prince was too black for Rock stations and too white for R&B stations . He couldn't be pigeonholed into one genre and as a result a ton of his music is unknown by many people in both genres.

muleFunk said:

Another thing that is not being mentioned here is Prince was too black for Rock stations and too white for R&B stations . He couldn't be pigeonholed into one genre and as a result a ton of his music is unknown by many people in both genres.

Another wonderful point.

there are so many different circumstances/factors. His musical choices, his image, his eclectic tastes, his business choices (independent label, limited distribution), being too prolific so he's hard to even keep up with him, the ageism in the music industry, race issues ( musical tastes sometimes rarely cross over racial lines..what happens when the artist ignores those color lines, where does he belong?).

Going along with what you said, I have read a few black posters state that Prince doesn't have music that one can dance to. I think that is an incorrect statement...just as incorrect as white audiences not giving him rock cred because he happened to be black and also do pop, r&b and funk.

Pop artists who cross over need really good promotion. This is why they made the cross-overs. His promotion sucked and still does. I was just in walmart yesterday. I couldn't find Purple Rain Deluxe but I found copies of the remastering of the Beatles Sergeant Peppers and in two different spots in the store and I also heard the song "fixing a hole" [a deep cut from that album] on the speakers. Even that kind of basic promotion is lacking in P's work.

[Edited 7/20/17 7:53am]

purplerabbithole said:

muleFunk said:

Another thing that is not being mentioned here is Prince was too black for Rock stations and too white for R&B stations . He couldn't be pigeonholed into one genre and as a result a ton of his music is unknown by many people in both genres.

Another wonderful point.

there are so many different circumstances/factors. His musical choices, his image, his eclectic tastes, his business choices (independent label, limited distribution), being too prolific so he's hard to even keep up with him, the ageism in the music industry, race issues ( musical tastes sometimes rarely cross over racial lines..what happens when the artist ignores those color lines, where does he belong?).

Going along with what you said, I have read a few black posters state that Prince doesn't have music that one can dance to. I think that is an incorrect statement...just as incorrect as white audiences not giving him rock cred because he happened to be black and also do pop, r&b and funk.

Pop artists who cross over need really good promotion. This is why they made the cross-overs. His promotion sucked and still does. I was just in walmart yesterday. I couldn't find Purple Rain Deluxe but I found copies of the remastering of the Beatles Sergeant Peppers and in two different spots in the store and I also heard the song "fixing a hole" [a deep cut from that album] on the speakers. Even that kind of basic promotion is lacking in P's work.

[Edited 7/20/17 7:53am]

This was a shocker to me as well.

I pre ordered mine and headed out to Walmart to see if they had PR Deluxe and they had one copy.

This is why the demise of the record store sucks.

206Michelle said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I believe what Prince was doing and the level of maturity in the music and videos could have helped Prince traverse the changing scenes. I mean the music really jumped levels and time lanes by 1984 but the music coming out of the Parade Flesh Dream Factory period/sessions was serious 'grown folk' music.

.

The problem with both ATWIAD & Parade was not the quality of music, but the lack of proper promotion. Proper promotion for ATWIAD in that even thought it was seriously Purple Rains fraternal twin, it was a very new direction of sound. It needed good promotion. The Raspberry Beret video winning the award it did, showed it had the potential. Purple Rain being very strong songs also had the Purple Rain movie. If there were no videos connected, the movie was enough. But the PR album also had a full on tour, with many other shows/performances. Around the World in a Day just need an album focused Europe America Canada (not tour but series of 'small club like' shows) I could see Prince & the Revolution @ a Music Hall / Carnegie or such doing Condition of the Heart. Showcasing the look they are known for. Prince sitting at a grand piano, full band with Susannah Jill BrownMark or St Paul on vocals. Suzi Katyama Novi Novog David Coleman on added strings, Jonathan Melvoin Sheila E/Juan Escovedo on added percussions. and then Old Friends 4 Sale

.

The Masquerade Ball Birthday show 6.7.1985 should have been bigger more publicized, and with more songs from the ATWIAD Romance 1600 the Family albums promoting all 3

.

I could see shows that consisted of a set list like
.
1. America

2. Ronnie Talk 2 Russia

3. Paisley Park

4. She's Always In My Hair

5. Temptation

6. God the Love theme

7. the Dance Electric

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or

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1. Uptown

2. Erotic City

3. Paisley Park

4. Around the World in a Day

5. Baby I'm a Star

6. Pop Life

7. maybe preview Strange Relationships

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or do a show that consists of the Family Sheila E followed by Prince & the Revolution doing about 3song from the new album along with 1 or 2 from previous

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Show the new videos by each prior to the show Screams of Passion, Sister Fate, Raspberry Beret

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more photoshoots from 1985

the Nice 1985 show televised etc

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the album(s) just needed the right promotion to help people grasp the music

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Parade the music was perfect. The problem was the movie. Prince wasn't an actor to hold the movie. It needed band performances (Who did not expect to see performance scenes). And I'm not talking about in similar fashion to Purple Rain. Prince as a struggling artist among France bourgeois, with his band of musicians... the fringe groups. @ Mary Sharons birthday party Day & Night. Jill Jones w/the Revolution performing Mia Bocca, while Christopher worked the floor, then takes the stage for New Position. the Family during the Day party doing High Fashion.

Christopher taking Mary to the other side of town to a club where Sheila E and band are doing A Love Bizarre, the Girls & Boys video actually being a part of the movie, the Revolution in the background doing Alexis de Paris etc

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Parade could have been on a similar level of Purple Rain. It was very mature timeless music that has stood the tests of time. People like DeAngelo and Jill Scott just to name a few who were students of the Parade music.

I have listened to Parade twice during the past week and what strikes me about Parade is how timeless and distinct it sounds. It doesn't sound like 1986. Madonna's True Blue sounds very mid-80s. Janet Jackson's Control sounds very mid-80s. Def Leppard's Hysteria sounds very mid-80s. MJ's Bad sounds very mid-80s. Those are all great albums, but they are also very mid-80s. If I didn't know that Parade was from 1986, I wouldn't know when the hell that album was released!

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"Venus de Milo" and "Do U Lie" could have come from 1940. "Life Can Be So Nice," "Christopher Tracy's Parade," and "New Position" sound very 80s. "Sometimes It Snows in April" could have come from the 70s, 90s, or 2000s, but doesn't sound 80s at all. "I Wonder U" has a very hip-hop and Middle Eastern vibe to it and could have come from the 90s or even the early 2000s. "Kiss" is like WDC due to the lack of a baseline and sounds so different from other hit songs of the same time period. The only clue dating "Kiss" is Prince mentioning Dynasty. "Anotherlover" and "Mountains" are timeless sounding...they sound like Prince & Revolution to me, because that's what they are.

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"Kiss" is one of Prince's signature songs, but other than that, Parade didn't have any major top 40 radio hits. I don't know why "Mountains" wasn't a bigger hit...it's such a great song, totally G rated and unoffensive, and Prince looks great in the video. I was born in 86, so I don't know what the promotion was like for Parade, but it definitely sounded different than anything else from 1986.

[Edited 7/19/17 17:17pm]

omg Parade is the album to help you ask the now.
'dated' isn't always bad. I love songs that transport me to a different time, yet isn't cheesy. I love most movies from the 70s and 80s and early 90s for those reasons.

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I agree, you could play Parade and not tell exactly when that album was made.

I Wonder U is q.uick breeze of desire. Very steamy. I didn't like the 2nd part of the arrangement on the Parade tour to try to turn it into a jam. Instead of extending the steaminess.
Mountains is just a very hopeful bright song. If you never knew the words to the song the music and how they sing it speaks volumes.

muleFunk said:

In 1996 Spin Magaizine had a listing of the best albums of 1996 and the author listed Chaos and Disorder and said (paraphrasing) that if an unknown had released this album it would be lauded but because it was Prince it was dismissed. That was Prince post WBR. Prince was competing against himself and most so called fans dismissed the music not that the music was subpar but because it wasn't the Prince with the Revolution or SOTT or Lovesexy.

Then around 93ish good solid music started fading out for the one hit wonder machine of Hip Hop and Rap which was taylor made for the post downsizing era of the recording industry. The bean counters took over all record companies and started kicking out the Music Biz people. By the end Napster and other filesharing sites destroyed the entire industry.

Sadly that might be because by the time the 1978-988 period wrecked out senses. Chaos & Disorder could easily be seen as 'easy 4 Prince' And I have to say I've gotten that vibe from a lot of Prince's music afterwards.
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Rainbow Children is still the one album after the 80s that WOWs me. But it also sounds like Prince decided to listen to his catalogue from 1978-1988 before recording it in 2000.

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AoA made me cry a little. I didn't really feel Prince there.

muleFunk said:

A better question would be would Prince's career been more respected if he only released an album every 4 years.

Maybe 3. But I agree. Now I cannot touch the whirlwind of purple wonderfulness of the 80s period. But there are places where I wish he took a little more time in the prep. Like for Under the Cherry Moon. or the Purple Rain touring. Or in stepping back in looking at the best way 4 success for the protege bands.

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But after that, after the WB break. It would have been more prudent for him to take a little time. I enjoyed that he finally did before releasing AoA, but it was almost a little too late.

DarkKnight1 said:

This is way too much revisionist history for my blood.

Im surprised the breakup with WB wasnt sooner. Prince was Prince. He was always going to change and evolve as a musician.....his own way. Dude was destined to change bands, change sounds, be selfish (which is a good thing) and just flat out change his mind on the fly regarding albums, singles, religion, etc...

I think it is a part of the process now. Next year we might not being doing much of it. It makes me anxious when I take part in it. Always has, but it is.

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I think, certain events brought up the Prince of the Slave, the Prince of the Artist, the Prince that began going after his fans, etc

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Like George Clinton said (who wasn't buying the Slave thing) WB gave Prince access and freedom he never seen anyone else black or white with.

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Prince as a musician artist, I understand his need to not want to be limited or told you cannot release a 3 disc set in 1987. But I don't think Prince was able to look at things from the 'fan/consumer' perspective anymore. I mean he released a 3 disc set in 1997 10yrs later and it was just bloated. To the point even he never performed much from it. Yes some fans will say, they like being able to have all of that music. But I prefere quality over quanity in my life. Always have been that way.

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Prince's 'religious' conversations of the 88-90 period had a big affect on how his career turned the various corners too. Some not so good.

I think that whole $100 million CONtract deal was WB way of putting Prince in his place. Sure, they signed Madonna to a $60 million deal in which she got her very own record label (Maverick) and the first artist she signed was Alanis Morrisette and we all know how many gazillion copies of her first album sold, right? That's because WB promoted the crap out of Jagged Little Pill. Prince signed his mega deal (to outshine Madge's) and his first release was the Love Symbol album, which WB did little to promote because it was in the contract that he had to sell X amount copies of the Love Symbol album or the contract was null and void. I thought that it was in the contract that Prince would regain control of his masters at the end of the deal, but maybe I'm dis-remembering? I thought that was the whole point of this new contract- that Prince would get ownership of his masters? WB would never have really given him the $100 million, it would have been traded for the masters.

spookyelectric23 said:

What I never could understand (and still can't) about the time he signed that $100 million Warner Bros. resigning deal back in 1992 was why he didn't take less upfront but be granted some sort of control over his master tapes. Then again, I imagine he tried then to make that happen, but those were the days when cds were still selling, so I doubt WB would have budged about giving Prince the rights to his master tapes back.

It's always easier to theorize and speculate after that fact, of course. It's just wild to me that the deal was for that much money with no return clause for his master tapes. Take $50 million upfront and get a backend deal in place to secure the rights to your master recordings.

All in all, Warner Bros. certainly facilitated and fostered his growth throughout his catalog he recorded and released through them. Days when labels still invested time and several albums into the viability of an artist, before dropping them like a hot sack of s*** after their first single doesn't go anywhere.

I'll always be grateful and have great memories going to get a new Prince album every year on the day of release. Had a sweet run from 'Around The World In A Day' in '85 to '"The Symbol Album"' in '92. Having a blast enjoying the predictability of Prince's unpredictability from album to album. He always reminded me of David Bowie in that respect: anything goes because they decided that's what their parameters were to work with.

Some responses are pretty rude for no reason at all.

That said, no, who cares about respect. In what aspect? A Pop aspect? To be compared to that other guy? (A guy who produced such little music and did the same things over and over) And other artists in a superficial way?

Prince leaving WB was one of the best things he ever did. For himself and it set an example for every artist after in terms of their rights. I loved his 90's period of unapologetic in your face sexuality just before he got fed up with them and after. The whole slave era with the words on his face and a hard edge sound was just pure unhinged badassery and creativity. Even before when he started leaving the traditional commerical pop sound in the early 90s for some REAL aspects of music in his work, it's great. The Love Symbol era is the greatest thing ever.

This is whats helped Prince to appeal to a broad audience, not just mainstream. I didn't get into Prince because of entirely because pop. Pop and popularity is not a measure of a man, it was because of the creativity.

And it's his less strictly pop albums that actually turned me into a Prince fan. Planet Earth, Gold, Love Symbol, New Power Soul, Chaos, and so on.

There are albums he produced long after the period of being fed up with them that would not exist if he just stuck to the same commercial things. It creates a diverse catelog.

Plus just I think his 90's image is the greatest thing ever. Yeah, this image and sound may not appeal to your grandmother, 4 year old daughter, or boss, but who cares?

muleFunk said: