if "Something in the Water" would have been heard only from Birthday Live til this day, I wonder

what people would feel about it if the studio version was released just last week.
i guess they would hate it

siim said:

siim said:

Interesting discussion. Madhouseman and Imprimis, you seem to have reached very different conclusions about the genesis of the released track. What do you base your assumptions on? It seems that perhaps Madhouseman's ideas are based on documents and witness accounts, while imprimis's conclusions are based on analysis of production technique and the equipment used. Is that correct?

Agreed. I can only go by what the multiple documents at I've gotten about these and the personal interviews. I can't say definitively that the tracks weren't adjusted later on using different equipment, but from everything that I've gathered, these are the tracks from 1984, and sound nearly identical to the versions that were completed in 1984.

I like hearing other viewpoints and it is always enlightening to know other opinions. Calmly comparing notes and theories is one of the best things about researching these types of projects.

Imprimis knows his stuff and brings a lot to this discussion. Our conclusions may be different but I respect what insight he brings to the table.

madhouseman said:

Interesting discussion. Madhouseman and Imprimis, you seem to have reached very different conclusions about the genesis of the released track. What do you base your assumptions on? It seems that perhaps Madhouseman's ideas are based on documents and witness accounts, while imprimis's conclusions are based on analysis of production technique and the equipment used. Is that correct?

Agreed. I can only go by what the multiple documents at I've gotten about these and the personal interviews. I can't say definitively that the tracks weren't adjusted later on using different equipment, but from everything that I've gathered, these are the tracks from 1984, and sound nearly identical to the versions that were completed in 1984.

I like hearing other viewpoints and it is always enlightening to know other opinions. Calmly comparing notes and theories is one of the best things about researching these types of projects.

Imprimis knows his stuff and brings a lot to this discussion. Our conclusions may be different but I respect what insight he brings to the table.

We need more discussions of the music like this. Not enough of it these days...

imprimis said:

paulludvig said:

Interesting discussion. Madhouseman and Imprimis, you seem to have reached very different conclusions about the genesis of the released track. What do you base your assumptions on? It seems that perhaps Madhouseman's ideas are based on documents and witness accounts, while imprimis's conclusions are based on analysis of production technique and the equipment used. Is that correct?

.
With the additional information madhouseman has provided, which has never previously been widely available, it seems the orchestration on 'Our Destiny' is Lisa Coleman and mostly hired session players, rather than Clare Fischer. However, 'Roadhouse Garden' features production methods that would not have been part of a 1984 Prince's toolkit. This is presumably the version as it was last worked on in 1986 (and perhaps best reflected in the leak that occurred last year); there are suspicions that the W&L vocals may have been added much later (1997-99, or even recently), or were 'reintegrated' due to being from a different source and take (a copy of a multitrack in W&L's own possession) from the version of RHG decided to include on this set (or a digital or tape of the parts of tracks they were e-mailing/snailmailing to complete these songs, from sometime in the late 1990s to mid 2000's).

.

[Edited 5/15/17 9:39am]

What parts are the Fairlight?

madhouseman said:

SomeSoldier said:

madhouseman said:

Agreed. I can only go by what the multiple documents at I've gotten about these and the personal interviews. I can't say definitively that the tracks weren't adjusted later on using different equipment, but from everything that I've gathered, these are the tracks from 1984, and sound nearly identical to the versions that were completed in 1984.

I like hearing other viewpoints and it is always enlightening to know other opinions. Calmly comparing notes and theories is one of the best things about researching these types of projects.

Imprimis knows his stuff and brings a lot to this discussion. Our conclusions may be different but I respect what insight he brings to the table.

I hope that the liner notes in the cd will clarify all this. To my knowledge there has been no information about the packaging of this set, and that worries me a bit. The only thing I've seen is that, according to some website where you can preorder it, it's a digi pack - hopefully better than 4ever though...

That sucks, I hate digipacks. A 4 disc set really needs a proper plastic jewel box.

djThunderfunk said:

SomeSoldier said:

madhouseman said: I hope that the liner notes in the cd will clarify all this. To my knowledge there has been no information about the packaging of this set, and that worries me a bit. The only thing I've seen is that, according to some website where you can preorder it, it's a digi pack - hopefully better than 4ever though...

That sucks, I hate digipacks. A 4 disc set really needs a proper plastic jewel box.

Me, too. It's like having vinyl in a cardboard album cover without the paper sleeve.

paulludvig said:

siim said:

if "Something in the Water" would have been heard only from Birthday Live til this day, I wonder

what people would feel about it if the studio version was released just last week.
i guess they would hate it

I think the studio version of RG is better than the live version. Same with EI. With Our Destiny it's the opposite. The live version is the best.

Spot on. It's amazing how Prince performs his falsetto "à la Lisa".
The live take bears one of the very best P's vocal performances.
Sung in a key that allows him to show off his flawless transitions from falsetto to chest (a difficult trick for any singer), there is something liberated about it.
Ladies and gentleman, a musician in full, total mastery of his art.
Before 1983, Prince was impressive. Afterwards, he became astounding.
WDC was released just a few weeks before, but by then, he could already feel it: the stars were about to align.

I want to believe the keyboard sequence is being played live (even if it could be one of the early MIDI sequencers, it's very probable that it's Dr. Fink arpeggiating). The detuned short "solo" is pure brilliance. The Revolution members were in charge of committing Prince's visions to stage. They did so with an undisputed passion and no trickery. The NPG is undeniably the better band, but there's a drive with the Revolution, maybe because they're all in their twenties, there's a fire in all of them.
Let alone how Prince felt about them: would Purple Rain exist without the Revolution? Heck no. Just because Prince could re-record everything by himself doesn't mean he did. He loved "being in a band". You can feel it in the electric energy, the generous exuberance of the Revolution performances.

Sometimes I wished more songs were made as a collaborative effort (the "In A Large Room With No Light" days), because that much auto-sufficient genius is not only unnerving, it eclipses the tour-de-force that being a Prince band musician is. The Revolution could, if really needed, be relegated as session musicians (but this "insult" suits the NPG better). But that would require to ignore that by 1985, after four months of touring the Tour Of The Year, they had become an incredible, cohesive band (Miami soundboard 1985, Cobo Hall 1986, just to mention the most obvious).

And of course, in 1984, life was enjoyed for what it was (maybe because of the resurgence of the nuclear threat). Computer chips were not the central ingredient of our lives yet.
Phone, when it was still deforming the voice (the Transmississippi rap), was the only remote connector ("How Come U Don't Call Me Anymore", "Neon Telephone", and many others), and it was used in a proper way. There was a time in the day to make a phone call. It wasn't a compulsive or needy act.

Pop music was exciting, because it was still hand-made, for the most part.
Synth were just synths, not the central, unavoidable hub of a recording studio. Electronic hardware was reliable but not entirely, and errors could produce new sounds: "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker" (the power block incident), and if "If I Was Your Girlfriend": had it been recorded in digital, the distorted vocal take would be lost for ever, unusable.

This is what these studio versions do for me. They bring back the magic of Prince gradually becoming invincible, a reward for so much determined work, to levels no one could suspect at the time. In a world where you could not fake it, or you wouldn't last for long.
I still don't understand how so much drive is possible, for so many years, without losing the fire.
Faith? Talent? Most of the time, and for most people, they only last for a season.

For us Prince fam.n.s, it's holiday season forever, and for years to come.
So let's try not to act too much like spoiled children.
From now on, what awaits us is only sketches from the sketchbook.
Let's enjoy them, because they're essential to the big picture.
And please don't turn them into Holy Grails, it can only lead to disappointment.

[Edited 5/15/17 18:43pm]

I'm still puzzled by the way both songs are segued into one another.

databank said:

I'm still puzzled by the way both songs are segued into one another.

.

Their collective fates as a suite bifurcated a long time ago.

.

But they've been crudely reunified here by the 4ever/PR Deluxe '17 team, as the fans have come to know them as such from the live and rehearsal bootlegs. Two tracks at different stages of development, with unlike sensibilities.

.

It seems 'Roadhouse Garden' came much closer to becoming a completed track for release in a theoretical post-1986 Revolution universe, and that interest in and work on 'Our Destiny' were abandoned much earlier.

.

[Edited 5/16/17 7:55am]

imprimis said:

databank said:

I'm still puzzled by the way both songs are segued into one another.

.

Their collective fates as a suite bifurcated a long time ago.

.

But they've been crudely reunified here by the 4ever/PR Deluxe '17 team, as the fans have come to know them as such from the live and rehearsal bootlegs. Two tracks at different stages of development, with unlike sensibilities.

.

It seems 'Roadhouse Garden' came much closer to becoming a completed track for release in a theoretical post-1986 Revolution universe, and that interest in and work on 'Our Destiny' were abandoned much earlier.

.

[Edited 5/16/17 7:55am]

Yet I find it hard to believe that WB would go for such an amateurish job, particularly since...

1/ They would get caught

2/ If there's one thing, and a single one, everyone in the community agrees on, it's that P's vault material must be released as such

3/ The result is awful anyway, so it doesn't bring any added value to the project

.

Hence me wondering: could it be that Prince or W&L had hastily assembled the tracks at some point, just to see how it'd sound, and that this is the version that somehow ended in WB's hands (instead of the 2 tracks separated)?

.

@Madhouseman I'd really like to have your thoughts on that one.

has anyone asked W&L if the Roadhouse Garden album was ever worked on back in the 90's???

luvsexy4all said:

has anyone asked W&L if the Roadhouse Garden album was ever worked on back in the 90's???

I've read different things, one being that P wouldn't pay for housing in Mpls so they declined to work for free, and another that they agreed on working on the project and he never followed-up with it, IDK which is true (if any) but one constant is that it seems no member of the revolution ever got anywhere near working on that project. Whether Prince did or not on his own is unknown AFAIK.

databank said:

I'm still puzzled by the way both songs are segued into one another.

One of the reasons why I prefer the live versions of both. That bass riffing really helps segue them nicely. Otherise these two can sound like two really disparate tracks.

I recorded it at the Tuesday night Revolution show in Cinci and posted here:

https://youtu.be/GMUU5tw5WH4

rdhull said:

Everybody seems to dislike Temptation. It has his sexy dirty guitar groove, solo, and some of his most uninhibited singing.

I bet ihe had ever did it live guitar god-wise, folks would lose their mind..wait a minute now

...it's good to know that I'm not the only one who recognizes the brilliance of Temptation. SUCH a dirty groove. My 10-year-old mind imploded when I first heard it, and it hasn't lost a bit of its impact.

sulls said:

I recorded it at the Tuesday night Revolution show in Cinci and posted here:

https://youtu.be/GMUU5tw5WH4

I'm only an hour and a half away from cinci but just couldn't make it. Glad to see you got to go, hope it was great!

theblueangel said:

Cosmic Day is a fucking masterpiece. Tone deaf suckas.

I love all of the psycadelica-pop-funk that is the Around The World album, just excellent it's one of his album masterpieces imho..

And, this includes the song Temptation... 10/10 to the album.....

remember the 12 inch mixes and the excellent b-sides as well..


Around The World In A Day.... wonderful....

rdhull said:

Everybody seems to dislike Temptation. It has his sexy dirty guitar groove, solo, and some of his most uninhibited singing.

I bet ihe had ever did it live guitar god-wise, folks would lose their mind..wait a minute now

I've always liked Temptation, too.

Genesia said:

rdhull said:

Everybody seems to dislike Temptation. It has his sexy dirty guitar groove, solo, and some of his most uninhibited singing.

I bet ihe had ever did it live guitar god-wise, folks would lose their mind..wait a minute now

I've always liked Temptation, too.

Temptation is nastay, in all the right ways... Love it!

djThunderfunk said:

sulls said:

I recorded it at the Tuesday night Revolution show in Cinci and posted here:

https://youtu.be/GMUU5tw5WH4

I'm only an hour and a half away from cinci but just couldn't make it. Glad to see you got to go, hope it was great!

I was a GREAT show! I had never seen the core '84 group and I was in AWE. Mark played that MF-ing bass!

djThunderfunk said:

djThunderfunk said:

Genesia said:

I've always liked Temptation, too.

Temptation is nastay, in all the right ways... Love it!

Yes!!!

sulls said:

I recorded it at the Tuesday night Revolution show in Cinci and posted here:

https://youtu.be/GMUU5tw5WH4

Thanks for posting that! Fun to see this!

madhouseman said: