Aerogram said:

databank said:

That where the lie is.

I've read pretty much everything there's to read about Prince and I've never read ANYone who's known him saying that he is horrible. This is a lie and you know it.

Lots of ex collaborators said he has issues, or expressed dissatisfaction at the way he had treated them or others on certain occasions. A few have even been pretty vocal (Morris, Jellybean and Jill mostly) about him being an asshole regarding certain matters. Nevertheless the vast majority of them also said that he was someone they respected and/or loved despite their former disagreements. My point is that most of P's former collaborators are decent human beings who are not going to condemn someone they know in every aspect of them, simply tell their truth about when they think said person fucked up and when they didn't.

That's, you know, the difference between normal human beings and hateful maniacs like certain people here (all the more maniacs that Prince never did a thing to them). Jeez! Do you also categorize people u know IRL as either "good" or "horrible"? How many people u know in your life have the privilege of being classified as absolute monsters the way you classify Prince?

Prince is just a man, who'd been very kind to some and very cold to others, sometimes one after the other with the same people. If that makes it horrible then I'm horrible, too. Most of the people I know are horrible,too.

I don't know that I'm a fanatic because I don't consider Prince being above any other person. I'm just a human being who likes to have reasonable opinions on other people, all the more if they're people I've never met. I think people like some here who are so quick to condemn other people with such determination, and to try hard and convince others that their preys are monsters, are people with serious issues. That's pretty horrible to me. I've met such people in real life: I make sure to keep a great distance between me and them.

I'm not defending Prince when I say all that, I'm expressing how shocked I am at the fanatic bigotry that consists of condemning other human beings so violently, unless maybe they're dictators or war criminals.

Oh stop pretending Prince isn't a pathetic evil sociopath who cares only about money even though he keeps recording all these songs in that expensive studio of his acting like he has another preoccupation such as music and then not promoting his new stuff much even though he's accused of pandering to the unwashed masses to make a dollar, here we know Prince is the Devil for sure.

But....He made Adore, so I don't care if he's the Devil. I forgive him. Ha!

Wolfie87 said:

Aerogram said:

Oh stop pretending Prince isn't a pathetic evil sociopath who cares only about money even though he keeps recording all these songs in that expensive studio of his acting like he has another preoccupation such as music and then not promoting his new stuff much even though he's accused of pandering to the unwashed masses to make a dollar, here we know Prince is the Devil for sure.

But....He made Adore, so I don't care if he's the Devil. I forgive him. Ha!

't was all but a pact with Lucifer to trick us.

Prince is evil and unbalanced and I'll denounce his evil doing till my last breath while others would rather support such causes as fighting global warming and ending world hunger.

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

The fact is that Prince wasn't putting much effort into conserving them when he had the opportunity. The fatc is that it was Susan Rogers who even started the vault while Prince was leaving stuff all over the place -- remember that the Razormaid remix of "Housequake" getting out was the result of Prince not paying his bill. Etc etc etc.

.

On the other hand there's the obvious "pulling shit from the vault"-era of CB/NPGMC. So perhaps there was some effort at that time to keep pristine copies, although it would equally be that they simply continued the practice described by Eric Leeds where recordings would be taken from the vault and used and not even put back properly but just left out and about.

.

I find it hard to believe that someone like Prince drastically changed his habits, especially considering that he ramped up his "not living in the past"-rhetoric in the post-WBR years. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that invaluable recordings have been lost and that bootleggers own the single remaining copy of a particular version of a track.

.

The recent reissues of Tabu Records were partly sourced from vinyl. Studio tapes from the Beatles have ended up in the hands of fans/bootleggers. The only video document of Michael Jackson's Bad Tour is a VHS tape. Etc etc etc.

Not sure what u r talking about but Razormaid remix of Housequake was realized by a Razormaid team DJ, and AFAIK originally ordered for a maxi-single, but once Prince declined to use it, it was officially released on a Razormaid compilation in 1987, titled Razormaid Chapter M-16 (http://www.discogs.com/Various-Razormaid-Chapter-M-16/release/1431019), and the mix is officially titled Housequake ("It's Not My Fault Mix"), most likely a reference by the remixer to the fact that the mix was refused by Prince for his own maxi (including it would have brought considerable publicity to the Razormaid remixing service), though that last bit about the title is pure speculation.

It's a common misconception that it's unreleased but that Razormaid Compilation was by all means an official release, only pretty confidential and available only through Razormaid's subscribing service.

[Edited 12/29/15 6:04am]

.

I've posted about this in the past, perhaps you'll believe Razormaid's own post:

.

One of the problems that we have been having lately is 50 year old artists (I won't mention names) who's careers are over, flat broke and lot's of time on their hands, seeing our web site. Desperately seeking a "loop hole" in our contract, they go out and hire a lawyer in an effort to get additional royalties for something we had permission on 12 years ago. I don't want to elaborate to much, but let me suffice to say that I do not enjoy looking up contracts from 12 years ago, (where it states they have waived all future royalty payments in exchange of me receiving full payment for my services), just to prove our innocence!

.

The full story, as told by T:

.

Prince contacted the guy at Razormaid after hearing a New Order remix
he had done (Unoficial Razormaid Mix) and contracted him to do a
"Video Mix" of Housequake... The guy said NO but Prince ave him
$15,000 and dropped the multi off so the guy kinda HAD to do it
(although he wanted NOTHING to do with Prince in any way).
.
He sent word that it was done and never heard from Prince again.
.
In Razormaids clause it states something like "If the tapes aren't
piocked up afgter 30 days Razormaid owns them and can do what they
want with it." Hence the Compilation discs with Housequake on them.

Wow, thanks for this. I listened to the Razormaid remix of Housequake the other day for the first time. I was really struck by how it showed the potential fidelity of Sign O' the Times!

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

.

The full story, as told by T:

.

Prince contacted the guy at Razormaid after hearing a New Order remix
he had done (Unoficial Razormaid Mix) and contracted him to do a
"Video Mix" of Housequake... The guy said NO but Prince ave him
$15,000 and dropped the multi off so the guy kinda HAD to do it
(although he wanted NOTHING to do with Prince in any way).
.
He sent word that it was done and never heard from Prince again.
.
In Razormaids clause it states something like "If the tapes aren't
piocked up afgter 30 days Razormaid owns them and can do what they
want with it." Hence the Compilation discs with Housequake on them.

dodger said:

databank said:

That where the lie is.

I've read pretty much everything there's to read about Prince and I've never read ANYone who's known him saying that he is horrible. This is a lie and you know it.

Lots of ex collaborators said he has issues, or expressed dissatisfaction at the way he had treated them or others on certain occasions. A few have even been pretty vocal (Morris, Jellybean and Jill mostly) about him being an asshole regarding certain matters. Nevertheless the vast majority of them also said that he was someone they respected and/or loved despite their former disagreements. My point is that most of P's former collaborators are decent human beings who are not going to condemn someone they know in every aspect of them, simply tell their truth about when they think said person fucked up and when they didn't.

That's, you know, the difference between normal human beings and hateful maniacs like certain people here (all the more maniacs that Prince never did a thing to them). Jeez! Do you also categorize people u know IRL as either "good" or "horrible"? How many people u know in your life have the privilege of being classified as absolute monsters the way you classify Prince?

Prince is just a man, who'd been very kind to some and very cold to others, sometimes one after the other with the same people. If that makes it horrible then I'm horrible, too. Most of the people I know are horrible,too.

I don't know that I'm a fanatic because I don't consider Prince being above any other person. I'm just a human being who likes to have reasonable opinions on other people, all the more if they're people I've never met. I think people like some here who are so quick to condemn other people with such determination, and to try hard and convince others that their preys are monsters, are people with serious issues. That's pretty horrible to me. I've met such people in real life: I make sure to keep a great distance between me and them.

I'm not defending Prince when I say all that, I'm expressing how shocked I am at the fanatic bigotry that consists of condemning other human beings so violently, unless maybe they're dictators or war criminals.

Totally agree. I've never understood why some people have nothing good to say about him but still follow his career closely and spend time on this site. . Of course we mightn't agree with everything he says or like every album/era but if I felt so strongly against him, like certain people do on here, I wouldn't bother with him and his music. It's a no brainier but maybe that's just me

Most of these people live vicariously through Prince. You gotta have no life to constantly bitch about Prince's music and career, especially if you haven't liked anything he's done in decades. If you care enough to post on message boarda or tweet to him, that says more about that person than Prince. P is not perfect but who is.

bashraka said:

dodger said:

databank said: Totally agree. I've never understood why some people have nothing good to say about him but still follow his career closely and spend time on this site. . Of course we mightn't agree with everything he says or like every album/era but if I felt so strongly against him, like certain people do on here, I wouldn't bother with him and his music. It's a no brainier but maybe that's just me

Most of these people live vicariously through Prince. You gotta have no life to constantly bitch about Prince's music and career, especially if you haven't liked anything he's done in decades. If you care enough to post on message boarda or tweet to him, that says more about that person than Prince. P is not perfect but who is.

[Bait snip - luv4u]

I agree with a lot of the stuff I'm reading ("Prince is an asshole", "then why are you here?"), but please realize that it's possible to be a fan of the art without being a fan of the person. Think Roman Polanski, Woody Allen and Stanley Kubrick...shit...even people like Gene Simmons, Ted Nugent and Phil Spector...Mike Vick and OJ Simpson...Ayn Rand and Ernest Hemmingway. Michael Jackson for crying out loud.

It's possible to enjoy a person's art and want to learn more about the creator only to be disappointed with a lot of thier persepctives and eccentricities. I follow Prince because I enjoy his music and find him incredibly interesting. I enjoy a lot of Woody Allen's and Polanski's films but we all know what those guys are on about. I used to like watching Mike Tyson box and Bill Cosby do stand up but, well, it's hard to discuss either of them without the word "rape" coming up.

What's so contradictory about that and why is it an "all or nothing" proposition? Bart VanHamelen and KKoolMusiq cancel each other out - The FOX News and Daily KOS of the org - but for the rest of us...

I don't see why we things have to be one way or the other. Love it or leave it. What's difficult about acknowledging that Prince is a great musician and a very talented artist but by all accounts is a bit of an egotist, a narccisisst, and a flake?

Can't I, as a fan, agree that both are true; and write about it without being invited to stop posting on the board? What else are we supposed to talk about beyond what we're given?

Can I appreciate Hunter S. Thompson's writing and still write about how he was a dangerous drug addict, a terrible parent and a raging alcholic and gun nut who ultimately committed suicide or am I not permitted to post on Hunter Thompson message boards and opine about how deeply flawed and depressed he was unless I just post about how much I enjoyed Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas?

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

funksterr said:

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

I don't think Prince was taking it to THAT extreme....lol

He said what any hardcore Prince fan already knows....It was basically him and Morris on those Time records...Prince wrote the music. Prince played the majority of the instruments. And Morris played drums on some of the tracks and sang lead....It was basically P/Morris....

That's what Prince was getting at: the fact that the Time on record wasn't really a real group....It was Prince and his (back then) best friend (Morris)...

In fact, that was the deal Prince made with Morris for helping him during his own rise.....P promised him that after he got his deal with WB he would get him his own deal......Then the perfect storm happened...Alexander O'Neal got kicked out of Flyte Tyme and the rest is history....

The real news with that Morris quote in Ebony was that P seems to be cool with Morris again......That's something I didn't think would ever happen again....

[Edited 12/30/15 13:52pm]

murph said:

funksterr said:

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

I don't think Prince was taking it to THAT extreme....lol

He said what any hardcore Prince fan already knows....It was basically him and Morris on those Time records...Prince wrote the music. Prince played the majority of the instruments. And Morris played drums on some of the tracks and sang lead....It was basically P/Morris....

That's what Prince was getting at: the fact that the Time on record wasn't really a real group....It was Prince and his (back then) best friend (Morris)...

In fact, that was the deal Prince made with Morris for helping him during his own rise.....P promised him that after he got his deal with WB he would get him his own deal......Then the perfect storm happened...Alexander O'Neal got kicked out of Flyte Tyme and the rest is history....

The real news with that Morris quote in Ebony was that P seems to be cool with Morris again......That's something I didn't think would ever happen again....

[Edited 12/30/15 13:52pm]

Funksterr knows he made no such sweeping admission, otherwise he would have mentionned it plenty of times by now.

[Edited 12/30/15 14:46pm]

[Edited 12/31/15 3:07am]

murph said:

funksterr said:

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

I don't think Prince was taking it to THAT extreme....lol

He said what any hardcore Prince fan already knows....It was basically him and Morris on those Time records...Prince wrote the music. Prince played the majority of the instruments. And Morris played drums on some of the tracks and sang lead....It was basically P/Morris....

That's what Prince was getting at: the fact that the Time on record wasn't really a real group....It was Prince and his (back then) best friend (Morris)...

In fact, that was the deal Prince made with Morris for helping him during his own rise.....P promised him that after he got his deal with WB he would get him his own deal......Then the perfect storm happened...Alexander O'Neal got kicked out of Flyte Tyme and the rest is history....

The real news with that Morris quote in Ebony was that P seems to be cool with Morris again......That's something I didn't think would ever happen again....

[Edited 12/30/15 13:52pm]

It's not extreme. Prince said what I said, only... I don't think he realized he said it. If The Time is definitely not anyone but he and Morris because that was all the music was 'with the keys on top', then Morris is half the band and co-writer of the music. Hopefully Prince has agreed to share ownership of the name and music, with Morris.

And we all know Jesse is at least another important factor, but at least Prince gave Morris some credit.

funksterr said:

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

Wow, stunning how differently people can react to the same comments. See, for me, this was the most explicit and clear declaration that I've ever seen Prince make that the Time as a whole was his... with a little help from Morris on drums (notice--drums, not lyrics, not melody, not chords, not anything that's usually the basis for a songwriting claim). You can't get more clear than he was in expressing the idea that there is no Time without Prince. While I've always been annoyed by "and the Time" that's going around with Morris, clearly in Prince's view it isn't in any way the Time, and wouldn't be even with Jimmy and Terry and Jesse on board since the Time equals "me and Morris." And it isn't at all weird that Prince owns the music. He wrote it, and he copyrighted it, with his publishing company.

Geez, it wouldn't be weird even if he didn't write it... it might be morally questionable, but certainly not weird. Even if Jesse actually wrote every note on those albums (which, of course, he didn't), it would barely be remarkable that Prince got all the money, or owned the music, or owned the name (I don't know what the deal is with the name--but it's far from unheard of for one member--even a non-original member--of a band to own a name or for some completely different entity to own it... and it actually makes perfect sense for Prince to have a very strong claim on the masters, if it came down to it. Morris wasn't responsible for Warner releasing those albums, nor was the Time. Prince got the deal for them as part of his contract. Warner released those albums for him, from him, with every understanding that they were him. The band members were his employees, not an actual musical entity (and while Prince has asserted that Morris made decisions like firing Jimmy and Terry, clearly no one in the band has any confusion about who their real boss was). How tough is that to really understand? They were the bleeding Archies!!!! Okay, that's a bit strong, but the bubblegum model of production is a good one. There was a public band for appearances, but the the music was created by separate producers and songwriters and studio musicans (in this particular case, all roles being combined into one person). Yes, the Time were talented musicians, and a great live band. Some of them went on to produce successful work on their own ( the most successful members had almost nothing to do with the Time's recordings, however). I'd love to see them and Prince really work together in a more equal partnership, and I liked Condensate--but the Time is Prince with Morris (and Morris is far the lesser portion).

This interview didn't reveal anything new about that. The Original7 mostly admitted it years ago (with Jesse making some claims to a few bits and pieces) and Prince has made a few references to his writing other tracks "with Morris in mind" and of course playing a few songs in concert (Cool has never actually worked from him, by the way), and he makes his claim to all of the Time's work explicit here. But nothing really substantial was new in this interview. In fact, other than the apparent "quoted" nature of what was said, I'm not sure much if anything was new at all.

funksterr said:

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

[Bait snip - luv4u]

mrnelsonlovesmoney said:

funksterr said:

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

[Bait snip - luv4u]

He didn't "rip offf" Morris. Read EddieC's post, it was a deal where he wrote and performed most of the music then marketed them as if they did that with "Jamie Starr", then got everyone in a movie and the exposure opportunity of a lifetime. Sheila was also marketed as if she did a great deal more on her albums.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

EBONY: But you could set the record straight.

Prince: There’s too much! They get down to, “See, what he was thinking at that specific time was… His mindset at the time…” They psychoanalyze you.
There was one engineer who said that their sole purpose in life was to get the stuff out of the vault, and get it copied so it wasn’t lost to the world. I’m trying to figure out if that’s illegal. Should I fear for my safety that you might need some medical attention? You want to come up in my vault and you feel like that belongs to you and that’s your purpose? You better find something to do. That’s scary.

Wow. This doesn't read to me like someone actually afraid of someone else "doing something" to his belongings. It reads more like paranoia that someone else would find out the man behind the purple velvet drapes has been full of shit, all this time. I'm more convinced with each passing day that there really is NO VAULT! If there ever was one, I think he's destroyed it already out of pure spite. SMDH!

[Edited 12/27/15 8:12am]

.

to me it reads like a guy who is afraid of his crazy asshole fans

Aerogram said:

Wolfie87 said:

But....He made Adore, so I don't care if he's the Devil. I forgive him. Ha!

't was all but a pact with Lucifer to trick us.

Prince is evil and unbalanced and I'll denounce his evil doing till my last breath while others would rather support such causes as fighting global warming and ending world hunger.

.

i think i might have heard that the original title was "Breakfast of Kitten Pancakes With Baby Puppy Sauce Can Wait"

EddieC said:

funksterr said:

I like that Prince finally acknowledged and admitted that Morris Day is co-creator of The Time and all of it's music. He claimed an issue with the other bandmembers taking credit for what they did (again $$$, would you rather go 50/50 on it or split that shit eight ways), but he admitted Morris Day's role. I guess the interviewer didn't get a follow-up question in, but it's weird that Prince owns all the bands' music and the name and Morris doesn't appear to get half at least or any say in when to use the name or not to. Maybe things are changing.

Wow, stunning how differently people can react to the same comments. See, for me, this was the most explicit and clear declaration that I've ever seen Prince make that the Time as a whole was his... with a little help from Morris on drums (notice--drums, not lyrics, not melody, not chords, not anything that's usually the basis for a songwriting claim). You can't get more clear than he was in expressing the idea that there is no Time without Prince. While I've always been annoyed by "and the Time" that's going around with Morris, clearly in Prince's view it isn't in any way the Time, and wouldn't be even with Jimmy and Terry and Jesse on board since the Time equals "me and Morris." And it isn't at all weird that Prince owns the music. He wrote it, and he copyrighted it, with his publishing company.

Geez, it wouldn't be weird even if he didn't write it... it might be morally questionable, but certainly not weird. Even if Jesse actually wrote every note on those albums (which, of course, he didn't), it would barely be remarkable that Prince got all the money, or owned the music, or owned the name (I don't know what the deal is with the name--but it's far from unheard of for one member--even a non-original member--of a band to own a name or for some completely different entity to own it... and it actually makes perfect sense for Prince to have a very strong claim on the masters, if it came down to it. Morris wasn't responsible for Warner releasing those albums, nor was the Time. Prince got the deal for them as part of his contract. Warner released those albums for him, from him, with every understanding that they were him. The band members were his employees, not an actual musical entity (and while Prince has asserted that Morris made decisions like firing Jimmy and Terry, clearly no one in the band has any confusion about who their real boss was). How tough is that to really understand? They were the bleeding Archies!!!! Okay, that's a bit strong, but the bubblegum model of production is a good one. There was a public band for appearances, but the the music was created by separate producers and songwriters and studio musicans (in this particular case, all roles being combined into one person). Yes, the Time were talented musicians, and a great live band. Some of them went on to produce successful work on their own ( the most successful members had almost nothing to do with the Time's recordings, however). I'd love to see them and Prince really work together in a more equal partnership, and I liked Condensate--but the Time is Prince with Morris (and Morris is far the lesser portion).

This interview didn't reveal anything new about that. The Original7 mostly admitted it years ago (with Jesse making some claims to a few bits and pieces) and Prince has made a few references to his writing other tracks "with Morris in mind" and of course playing a few songs in concert (Cool has never actually worked from him, by the way), and he makes his claim to all of the Time's work explicit here. But nothing really substantial was new in this interview. In fact, other than the apparent "quoted" nature of what was said, I'm not sure much if anything was new at all.

Prince may have written and performed a lot of the material, and it may have all been released under Prince's WB deal, but that does not mean the band has no reasonable claim to the sound recordings (masters). Their situation with Prince, imo, is just typical recording industry irregularities and shananigans.

The master's reclaimation process is extremely complicated and really another discussion all together.
So as not to derail the thread (which is why I didn't bring it up earlier, Aero), many points are covered in this article, so I'll leave it at that:
http://www.thembj.org/2011/10/artists-and-their-masters-conflict-looming-in-2013/

I don't know that anyone in The Time or any other band Prince produced intends to challenge him for their masters. I just know Prince, clearly didn't consider himself a bandmember back in the day, but a writer and producer instead, and I think his thinking has evolved to claiming membership in the group only as it supports his control over a valuable financial commodity.

But then he opened his big mouth to Ebony magazine and admitted he sees it as Morris's band, too. I think he's manipulating Morris to secure his own control of the band: 'This our band! Right Morris?'. I just hope Morris comes away from the situation this time (pun intended!) with some actual rights to the name and masters, since as Prince said it began with he and Prince.

Morris might have some claim to the masters--I certainly don't know. But it seems highly unlikely any other member of the Time would. And I still don't see anything really new as far as Prince "opening his big mouth" and giving Morris some dangerous support in a rights fight. He's mentioned before that songs were done with him and Morris "on drums." As to the idea that Prince is claiming to be "a member of the band"--nope. He's denying there was one. There was no "Time"--there's just Prince doing some songs with Morris. But I now cede the floor to anyone else who thinks there were other worthwhile topics in this interview, because I'm done with this one.

funksterr said:

EddieC said:

Wow, stunning how differently people can react to the same comments. See, for me, this was the most explicit and clear declaration that I've ever seen Prince make that the Time as a whole was his... with a little help from Morris on drums (notice--drums, not lyrics, not melody, not chords, not anything that's usually the basis for a songwriting claim). You can't get more clear than he was in expressing the idea that there is no Time without Prince. While I've always been annoyed by "and the Time" that's going around with Morris, clearly in Prince's view it isn't in any way the Time, and wouldn't be even with Jimmy and Terry and Jesse on board since the Time equals "me and Morris." And it isn't at all weird that Prince owns the music. He wrote it, and he copyrighted it, with his publishing company.

Geez, it wouldn't be weird even if he didn't write it... it might be morally questionable, but certainly not weird. Even if Jesse actually wrote every note on those albums (which, of course, he didn't), it would barely be remarkable that Prince got all the money, or owned the music, or owned the name (I don't know what the deal is with the name--but it's far from unheard of for one member--even a non-original member--of a band to own a name or for some completely different entity to own it... and it actually makes perfect sense for Prince to have a very strong claim on the masters, if it came down to it. Morris wasn't responsible for Warner releasing those albums, nor was the Time. Prince got the deal for them as part of his contract. Warner released those albums for him, from him, with every understanding that they were him. The band members were his employees, not an actual musical entity (and while Prince has asserted that Morris made decisions like firing Jimmy and Terry, clearly no one in the band has any confusion about who their real boss was). How tough is that to really understand? They were the bleeding Archies!!!! Okay, that's a bit strong, but the bubblegum model of production is a good one. There was a public band for appearances, but the the music was created by separate producers and songwriters and studio musicans (in this particular case, all roles being combined into one person). Yes, the Time were talented musicians, and a great live band. Some of them went on to produce successful work on their own ( the most successful members had almost nothing to do with the Time's recordings, however). I'd love to see them and Prince really work together in a more equal partnership, and I liked Condensate--but the Time is Prince with Morris (and Morris is far the lesser portion).

This interview didn't reveal anything new about that. The Original7 mostly admitted it years ago (with Jesse making some claims to a few bits and pieces) and Prince has made a few references to his writing other tracks "with Morris in mind" and of course playing a few songs in concert (Cool has never actually worked from him, by the way), and he makes his claim to all of the Time's work explicit here. But nothing really substantial was new in this interview. In fact, other than the apparent "quoted" nature of what was said, I'm not sure much if anything was new at all.

Prince may have written and performed a lot of the material, and it may have all been released under Prince's WB deal, but that does not mean the band has no reasonable claim to the sound recordings (masters). Their situation with Prince, imo, is just typical recording industry irregularities and shananigans.

The master's reclaimation process is extremely complicated and really another discussion all together.
So as not to derail the thread (which is why I didn't bring it up earlier, Aero), many points are covered in this article, so I'll leave it at that:
http://www.thembj.org/2011/10/artists-and-their-masters-conflict-looming-in-2013/

I don't know that anyone in The Time or any other band Prince produced intends to challenge him for their masters. I just know Prince, clearly didn't consider himself a bandmember back in the day, but a writer and producer instead, and I think his thinking has evolved to claiming membership in the group only as it supports his control over a valuable financial commodity.

But then he opened his big mouth to Ebony magazine and admitted he sees it as Morris's band, too. I think he's manipulating Morris to secure his own control of the band: 'This our band! Right Morris?'. I just hope Morris comes away from the situation this time (pun intended!) with some actual rights to the name and masters, since as Prince said it began with he and Prince.

Prince has said The Time was Morris' group as far back as 1990 in the interview with Rolling Stone magazine. What Prince said was not a big revelation.

funksterr said:

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

.

The full story, as told by T:

.

Prince contacted the guy at Razormaid after hearing a New Order remix
he had done (Unoficial Razormaid Mix) and contracted him to do a
"Video Mix" of Housequake... The guy said NO but Prince ave him
$15,000 and dropped the multi off so the guy kinda HAD to do it
(although he wanted NOTHING to do with Prince in any way).
.
He sent word that it was done and never heard from Prince again.
.
In Razormaids clause it states something like "If the tapes aren't
piocked up afgter 30 days Razormaid owns them and can do what they
want with it." Hence the Compilation discs with Housequake on them.

Thanks for posting this, that kind of corroborate what I thought though, only with more details.

I doubt however that the Razormaid comment about "50 years old artists and 12 years old contracts" had anything to do with Prince: 12 years after those events was 1999 and Prince was 41 at the time. I think u're reading too much into it. Also it may be my English but it's unclear to me whether Prince paid the 15,000 upfront and never claimed the remix or if he was supposed to pay afterwards and didn't.

funksterr said:

EddieC said:

Wow, stunning how differently people can react to the same comments. See, for me, this was the most explicit and clear declaration that I've ever seen Prince make that the Time as a whole was his... with a little help from Morris on drums (notice--drums, not lyrics, not melody, not chords, not anything that's usually the basis for a songwriting claim). You can't get more clear than he was in expressing the idea that there is no Time without Prince. While I've always been annoyed by "and the Time" that's going around with Morris, clearly in Prince's view it isn't in any way the Time, and wouldn't be even with Jimmy and Terry and Jesse on board since the Time equals "me and Morris." And it isn't at all weird that Prince owns the music. He wrote it, and he copyrighted it, with his publishing company.

Geez, it wouldn't be weird even if he didn't write it... it might be morally questionable, but certainly not weird. Even if Jesse actually wrote every note on those albums (which, of course, he didn't), it would barely be remarkable that Prince got all the money, or owned the music, or owned the name (I don't know what the deal is with the name--but it's far from unheard of for one member--even a non-original member--of a band to own a name or for some completely different entity to own it... and it actually makes perfect sense for Prince to have a very strong claim on the masters, if it came down to it. Morris wasn't responsible for Warner releasing those albums, nor was the Time. Prince got the deal for them as part of his contract. Warner released those albums for him, from him, with every understanding that they were him. The band members were his employees, not an actual musical entity (and while Prince has asserted that Morris made decisions like firing Jimmy and Terry, clearly no one in the band has any confusion about who their real boss was). How tough is that to really understand? They were the bleeding Archies!!!! Okay, that's a bit strong, but the bubblegum model of production is a good one. There was a public band for appearances, but the the music was created by separate producers and songwriters and studio musicans (in this particular case, all roles being combined into one person). Yes, the Time were talented musicians, and a great live band. Some of them went on to produce successful work on their own ( the most successful members had almost nothing to do with the Time's recordings, however). I'd love to see them and Prince really work together in a more equal partnership, and I liked Condensate--but the Time is Prince with Morris (and Morris is far the lesser portion).

This interview didn't reveal anything new about that. The Original7 mostly admitted it years ago (with Jesse making some claims to a few bits and pieces) and Prince has made a few references to his writing other tracks "with Morris in mind" and of course playing a few songs in concert (Cool has never actually worked from him, by the way), and he makes his claim to all of the Time's work explicit here. But nothing really substantial was new in this interview. In fact, other than the apparent "quoted" nature of what was said, I'm not sure much if anything was new at all.

Prince may have written and performed a lot of the material, and it may have all been released under Prince's WB deal, but that does not mean the band has no reasonable claim to the sound recordings (masters). Their situation with Prince, imo, is just typical recording industry irregularities and shananigans.

The master's reclaimation process is extremely complicated and really another discussion all together.
So as not to derail the thread (which is why I didn't bring it up earlier, Aero), many points are covered in this article, so I'll leave it at that:
http://www.thembj.org/2011/10/artists-and-their-masters-conflict-looming-in-2013/

I don't know that anyone in The Time or any other band Prince produced intends to challenge him for their masters. I just know Prince, clearly didn't consider himself a bandmember back in the day, but a writer and producer instead, and I think his thinking has evolved to claiming membership in the group only as it supports his control over a valuable financial commodity.

But then he opened his big mouth to Ebony magazine and admitted he sees it as Morris's band, too. I think he's manipulating Morris to secure his own control of the band: 'This our band! Right Morris?'. I just hope Morris comes away from the situation this time (pun intended!) with some actual rights to the name and masters, since as Prince said it began with he and Prince.

While I agree with the complexity of the masters ownership (I've always raised this issue here), I agree with everyone in disagreeing in what you read into Prince's words. He didn't say what u say he said. He didn't even imply that Morris was co-author of the songs and there's not even a hint at the notion of him admitting Morris could claim the band, the masters or any additional royalties. I think u read here what u'd like to hear, but it's not what was said.

databank said:

jdcxc said:

The only question I have is who played the remarkably complex and legendary drum part in 777-9311...Prince or Morris or both?

Is it either? I don't know, but while I know ?uestlove definitely wasn't in the studio, here's what he had to say in his "33 Reasons Why Prince Is Hip-Hop" article on WaxPoetics (http://waxpoetics.com/features/articles/prince-is-hip-hop-by-questlove/):

16. “Now there’s this thing called the drum machine, you don’t need good rhythm to sound real mean.”

Prince’s greatest gift to hip-hop (and most post–civil rights R&B) was his peerless and boundless ability to program and mix drum machines. He used his guitar effects to get new sounds out of them. He often substituted sounds for others (high-pitched tambourine was hi-hat, snare rim shot were congas, lowered cowbells were tom-toms). Not to mention, the actual programming was done so precise you too thought it was done by a human (not even gonna speak on spending three months in 1982 tryna master “777-9311” to find out it was a machine).

I think I've seen other references (possibly from Jellybean in discussing the difficulty of reproducing it live) saying that the part on the record was programmed, not played.

EddieC said:

jdcxc said:

The only question I have is who played the remarkably complex and legendary drum part in 777-9311...Prince or Morris or both?

Is it either? I don't know, but while I know ?uestlove definitely wasn't in the studio, here's what he had to say in his "33 Reasons Why Prince Is Hip-Hop" article on WaxPoetics (http://waxpoetics.com/features/articles/prince-is-hip-hop-by-questlove/):

16. “Now there’s this thing called the drum machine, you don’t need good rhythm to sound real mean.”

Prince’s greatest gift to hip-hop (and most post–civil rights R&B) was his peerless and boundless ability to program and mix drum machines. He used his guitar effects to get new sounds out of them. He often substituted sounds for others (high-pitched tambourine was hi-hat, snare rim shot were congas, lowered cowbells were tom-toms). Not to mention, the actual programming was done so precise you too thought it was done by a human (not even gonna speak on spending three months in 1982 tryna master “777-9311” to find out it was a machine).

I think I've seen other references (possibly from Jellybean in discussing the difficulty of reproducing it live) saying that the part on the record was programmed, not played.

Thanks for all the details you include, I also always had this idea it was programmed.

EddieC said:

EddieC said:

Morris might have some claim to the masters--I certainly don't know. But it seems highly unlikely any other member of the Time would. And I still don't see anything really new as far as Prince "opening his big mouth" and giving Morris some dangerous support in a rights fight. He's mentioned before that songs were done with him and Morris "on drums." As to the idea that Prince is claiming to be "a member of the band"--nope. He's denying there was one. There was no "Time"--there's just Prince doing some songs with Morris. But I now cede the floor to anyone else who thinks there were other worthwhile topics in this interview, because I'm done with this one.

This^^^^^^

The Time essentially existed as a live act...But on record though? the Time was a concept group from the mind of Prince. Most of the people that I've sopken to over the years in the Prince camp have said this. I think where some some fans get tripped up on is the instrumental contributions that have become known over the years...Like Lisa contributing background vocals and some keyboards on tracks like "The Stick"....

Also Jesse indeed helped out with the writing of "Jungle Love"...But beyond that it's Prince writing, producing and playing The majority of the instruments with Morris playing drums here and there and on lead vocals...

Morris though played a very important role in the spirit of the Time...And I think that's what Prince was getting at in that Ebony interview...Basically: THE TIME ON RECORD IS MYSELF AND MORRIS....

I don't think it gets any deeper than that....

jdcxc said:

databank said:

While I agree with the complexity of the masters ownership (I've always raised this issue here), I agree with everyone in disagreeing in what you read into Prince's words. He didn't say what u say he said. He didn't even imply that Morris was co-author of the songs and there's not even a hint at the notion of him admitting Morris could claim the band, the masters or any additional royalties. I think u read here what u'd like to hear, but it's not what was said.

Exactly. Every fan and music scholar knows this. The only question I have is who played the remarkably complex and legendary drum part in 777-9311...Prince or Morris or both?

IIRC about a decade ago (more probably even, ONA era), John Blackwell explained that he had to learn it on drums and that Prince clearly had told him it was all drum machine in the original.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

herb4 said:

We know from the sheer amount of unofficial material that HAS leaked that "The Vault" certainly exists. Just the stuff we know about that's never been officially released could constitute "a vault", let alone what must be the hundreds of songs that never leaked at all.

Okay. I still just have this nagging suspicion that in the midst of one of his royal temper tantrums one day, he's either torched it, trashed it or signed it away. In other words, the vault no LONGER exists.

a nagging suspicion in tha anals of your mind?