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Reply #300 posted 11/09/14 10:09am

geetee71

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I guess I'll have to wait for this to show up in the more usual places before I get to hear these tracks but the detailed dissection and analysis here is fascinating to read.
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Reply #301 posted 11/09/14 10:26am

riocoolnes

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LOL HOW DO I BUY THIS OR GET THIS LOLOLOLOLOOL!!!!!

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Reply #302 posted 11/09/14 10:49am

smokeverbs

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imprimis said:

You have to understand that this is just the latter part of the cassette that has been circulating since approximately 1988, that begins with the isolated orchestration, and then transitions to run-through of the "extended" Purple Rain with the previous orchestration section superimposed. The earliness of this "leak" would suggest rather strongly the authenticity of the entire recording.


...


Back then, there was not yet a well-developed trading community such as there was only a few years later (or today, for that matter), nor ready access to [digital] audio editing tools to provide the means or the audience for contriving such a thing. We just get here the latter part of that cassette now in full (this particular and exact "extended" take of Purple Rain), and from a recording earlier in generation [or not deliberately downgraded in quality by later traders/bootleggers].


...


And that still doesn't explain the overdubbed elements independent of these things, which, for my purposes at least, is proof enough.


...


This is a very rough and early mix-down, presumably done in "real-time" at the console quickly (which I suspect was done the very day of the Coleman/Mac/Novog orchestral overdub recording sessions), and nothing to regard as a potential near-"candidate" for album release (with respect to your mentioning certain parts have discernable audience noise/certain parts not).


...


That isn't to say that Eye Records are not dirty on many other things (clearly they are), and calling this a proper "demo", with little elaboration or incomplete explanation, may be something of a prevarication (or at least likely to mislead, on their part) here.


...


I was actually going to mention the string coda earlier. I believe (and have more or less always believed) at least some of the "audience noise" in the final PR album version of this song is from or has been "enhanced" with a stock sound library. In an interview with David Rivkin, I believe he mentioned that the actual First Avenue audience that evening did not generate the full emotional response they were expecting, and that they had to rely on playback captured from a football game audience (no joke) [I am assuming here that he is referring to the later production work on the track]. And clearly the levels on some instruments throughout this recording have been left too high (or too low)-- which goes to show that it's a very rough mix-down without much care intended or applied.


...



smokeverbs said:


Listening to it all, again. and Again. Alright, I do hear the added elements (backing vox and some extra guitar here and there). Perhaps I just don't trust Eye Records? This is a really cool version, regardless. I'm inclined to agree with you now. You have to admit though, the other fakes on this set (Lady Cab Driver, Friend Mother Sister Wife, etc) make it easy to suspect other things.



Edit: No Audience noise on the string coda, nor any Piano. Again, very odd. I'm flip flopping, but I'm still not convinced.




[Edited 11/9/14 10:42am]



I wasn't aware of the tape you speak of, that's interesting.
.
Regarding the possibly of augumented audience sounds, I remember that interview too... However, the audience on the coda of the album Version MATCHES the original live tape. I'm still willing to believe that this is, like you said, just a quick rough mix from '84, but, Eye Records is what it is. Not even Per Nilson ever mentioned this. I don't know. I concede that maybe this is a non-issue, but for the sake of documentation, I'd like to know.
Keep your headphones on.
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Reply #303 posted 11/09/14 10:54am

imprimis

I would have to endorse your view.

...

While I believe most of the basic tracks on this version originate in the Summer 1985 recording session of "Empty Room", it appears they have been mixed in a 1993-94/TGE-era way (not an entirely perfect comparison by any means, but consider, for instance, how 1986's "Crucial" is mixed in its circulating bootleg formats, and how it ended up on 1997/8's "Crystal Ball" with its pseudo-QSound mixing [vaguely like Madonna's True Blue/Like a Prayer/Immaculate albums], to demonstrate how mixing and editing can contribute to a quite drastic change to the subjective "feel" of a track).

...

There is the issue of *possible* overdubs (in particular, to my ears at least, the synth lead line has that inscrutable, slightly corny early/mid-90s workstation trying-too-hard-to-sound-vintage-analog quality [compare a similar mid-90s-era "retro" lead line from "In This Bed I Scream"]).

...

The entire production is very much akin in its grittiness and "morose" tone to Summer 1985's "A Question of U" (which might itself have received small overdubs, although circa 1987).

...

The guitar effects rack (very much like his 1985-stretch live PR tour performances/"The Dance Electric"/"Temptation"), the 'mid-1984 through 1986-era' signature hand chimes, etc., all speak, I strongly argue, to the origins of at least a large portion of the underlying tracks utilized in this particular recording.

...

I wouldn't consider these possibilities any more intrusive "fussbudgetry" and tinkering, though, than 1985/86's "Splash" received in its proposed-1998 "Roadhouse Garden"/NPGMC release.

...

These careful [possible] changes might make it a better track than an unadulterated 1985 recording would have it (if indeed it has had any work done on it at all, other than perhaps the issue of mixing/editing).

...

Not directly related to this discussion, there have been rumors that 1985's 'Empty Room' received Claire Fischer overdubs in late 1985 or 1986, although, it would seem, if this version is (or is a early/mid-90s 'touch-up' of) the 1985 take, they of course go unused here. It would be interesting to hear a version incorporating any work Fischer might have composed for it, as this is just the type of dark, weird and moody material his work very enjoyably complements.

...

...

aalloca said:

the empy room track is throwing me for a curve ball. as I the track sound like prime 93 and 94 era to me, to see 85 I am not convinced.

[Edited 11/9/14 11:45am]

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Reply #304 posted 11/09/14 10:59am

imprimis

Still, though, we have never been granted, outside of this tape (and the earlier bootlegs on which a small portion of it appeared) and/or this "new" leak, a stereo recording of any portion of the 1983 First Avenue benefit performance (except those aspects used in the final album, of course!), even if you believe this "extended take" has been constructed artificially from multiple [elite-trader bootlegged] sources. Previously unheard studio work on this track (by the masses, at least) is clearly in there, regardless of the theories of its full and true origins.

. . .

smokeverbs said:

imprimis said:

You have to understand that this is just the latter part of the cassette that has been circulating since approximately 1988, that begins with the isolated orchestration, and then transitions to run-through of the "extended" Purple Rain with the previous orchestration section superimposed. The earliness of this "leak" would suggest rather strongly the authenticity of the entire recording.

...

Back then, there was not yet a well-developed trading community such as there was only a few years later (or today, for that matter), nor ready access to [digital] audio editing tools to provide the means or the audience for contriving such a thing. We just get here the latter part of that cassette now in full (this particular and exact "extended" take of Purple Rain), and from a recording earlier in generation [or not deliberately downgraded in quality by later traders/bootleggers].

...

And that still doesn't explain the overdubbed elements independent of these things, which, for my purposes at least, is proof enough.

...

This is a very rough and early mix-down, presumably done in "real-time" at the console quickly (which I suspect was done the very day of the Coleman/Mac/Novog orchestral overdub recording sessions), and nothing to regard as a potential near-"candidate" for album release (with respect to your mentioning certain parts have discernable audience noise/certain parts not).

...

That isn't to say that Eye Records are not dirty on many other things (clearly they are), and calling this a proper "demo", with little elaboration or incomplete explanation, may be something of a prevarication (or at least likely to mislead, on their part) here.

...

I was actually going to mention the string coda earlier. I believe (and have more or less always believed) at least some of the "audience noise" in the final PR album version of this song is from or has been "enhanced" with a stock sound library. In an interview with David Rivkin, I believe he mentioned that the actual First Avenue audience that evening did not generate the full emotional response they were expecting, and that they had to rely on playback captured from a football game audience (no joke) [I am assuming here that he is referring to the later production work on the track]. And clearly the levels on some instruments throughout this recording have been left too high (or too low)-- which goes to show that it's a very rough mix-down without much care intended or applied.

...

[Edited 11/9/14 10:42am]

I wasn't aware of the tape you speak of, that's interesting. . Regarding the possibly of augumented audience sounds, I remember that interview too... However, the audience on the coda of the album Version MATCHES the original live tape. I'm still willing to believe that this is, like you said, just a quick rough mix from '84, but, Eye Records is what it is. Not even Per Nilson ever mentioned this. I don't know. I concede that maybe this is a non-issue, but for the sake of documentation, I'd like to know.

[Edited 11/9/14 11:28am]

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Reply #305 posted 11/09/14 12:15pm

smokeverbs

avatar

Indeed. I'll drop this for now.
.
Have to say though I agree 100% with your assessment of Empty Room.
.
Also, "Qsound-like version of Crucial on Crystal Ball".... NO DOUBT. I literally laughed out loud when I read that. You're spot-on, sir.
[Edited 11/9/14 12:19pm]
Keep your headphones on.
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Reply #306 posted 11/09/14 12:25pm

Freek99999

Did the unreleased Flesh album also leak? I seem to have downloaded just that!

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Reply #307 posted 11/09/14 12:31pm

aalloca

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Imprimis are you a recording engineer by trade? Your insight is very skilled. enjoying your replies.

great stuff.

Music is the best...
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Reply #308 posted 11/09/14 12:37pm

dbpdexter

Freek99999 said:

Did the unreleased Flesh album also leak? I seem to have downloaded just that!

You might have downloaded "The Flash" album not Flesh. If you did actually download it that would be great. cool

AKA PDEXTER
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Reply #309 posted 11/09/14 12:38pm

smokeverbs

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Freek99999 said:

Did the unreleased Flesh album also leak? I seem to have downloaded just that!




WHAT??? ALL FOUR SONGS?
Keep your headphones on.
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Reply #310 posted 11/09/14 12:41pm

smokeverbs

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I can't speak for imprimis, but I have been an engineer for 20+ years, so we speak the same language. Cheers, everyone.
Keep your headphones on.
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Reply #311 posted 11/09/14 12:44pm

KingSausage

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If The Flesh album leaked in full, I think I would leak in my pants.

"Drop that stereo before I blow your Goddamn nuts off, asshole!"
-Eugene Tackleberry
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Reply #312 posted 11/09/14 12:56pm

FragileUnderto
w

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smokeverbs said:

Ok, I don't have "Work It", so I can't comment on how these tracks compare to those copies.

Disc 1

1. Don't Let Him Fool Ya

Sounds very good compared to the previous leak. Treble a bit much. Verdict = KEEP. I THINK THIS IS FROM '81 and not '82 however. Your thoughts?


2. Moonbeam Levels

Highs not as exagerated as last week's leak, but I think last week's leak is better. This one sounds like there's a blanket over the speaker. However, still a definite improvement over "Perfect Unreleased Prince" where it has too much noise reduction. Verdict = KEEP, but I have a question for discussion: This, and last week's leak, both run slower than the previous versions we've had. It sounds fine, and MAY be the proper running speed, but see Purple Rain Below.


3. Lady Cab Driver (instrumental)

FAKE. OBVIOUS FAKE. Not even a nice try, Eye. Verdict = YO MAMA!


4. Possessed

This sounds like shit. An overtweeked copy of what we've already had. My best copy is from "1999 Homemade Edition" from The Unheard Music blog. Verdict = DUMP.


5. Traffic Jam

Very similar to last week's leak, but that leak was only in 128k/s. Verdict = KEEP.


6. Purple Rain (demo)

I have my doubts about the authenticity of this one, but I would like to be proven wrong. My thoughts: Well, it sounds better than "Purple Rush" or "The Avenue", but this sound stitched together. The orchestra is too loud. The whole thing runs too slow. Was it last year when the "orchestral overdubs only" version of Purple Rain leaked? This sounds like someone laid that track over the original live version. You can still hear the Audience, especially in the first half, sorry Fragile. The string coda is Out Of Synch with the rest of the track. Now, this is all nicely done for the most part, but my verdict is Homemade Mix, but Keep, because the sound quality is better than what we've had before. I'd love to hear some other folk's thoughts on this one.


hmmm I might have to listen to this close with earphones, Good catch!


7. 100 MPH

What's happening in the very beginning of the intro? Eye's poorly done attempt to "fix" the dropout in the fourth note? My copy from "The Work" gets pretty bad sounding around :47, which continues into the first verse. This one sounds like a lower gen copy of what we've had before. Verdict = KEEP, but I'll be restoring the first few seconds of the intro from "the Work" to this one. Seriously, listen to the first few seconds of this version, it's Terribly done.


8. Around The World In a Day #2 KEEP. KEEP KEEP KEEP. A MAJOR UPGRADE.


9. Toy Box See #8.


10. Teacher Teacher

Minor Improvement over The Work. Highs are a bit exagerated. Verdict = KEEP.


11. Neon Telephone.

Different mix than what we've had before. I'd love to know which came first, but I'm inclined to label this #2 as it has more overdubs than the previous one. Verdict = KEEP.


12. Empty Room

So are we still calling this one #2? I've always, always thought this had '90s overdubs on it. I've always loved it regardless, and consider this version, whether it's from '85 or '95 to be the best version of Empty Room. That said, What happened to the word "hair" in verse two? I don't find this to be much of an upgrade, despite including Prince's count-off in the intro. It's very similar to what we've already had. Verdict = YOUR CALL.


13. Splash

This has the same over-exaggerated highs that appear in last week's Moonbeam Levels leak, and I find it difficult to listen to. That said, this is missing Clare Fisher's Orchestral overdubs, and thus should now be labelled #1, and the previous one is #2. Verdict = KEEP, But requires some further EQing to reduce the highs.


14. Eternity

This is definately not the same mix as what we've had before. It's also a higher quality sounding version. I don't have "work it", so I don't know if that's an upgrade from "The work", but on The Work it's smothered in noise reduction. So are we calling this one #2 now? Verdict = KEEP.


15. A Couple Of Miles This sounds pretty much identical to the previous leak.



Great review thumbs up!

Cant believe my purple psychedelic pimp slap pimp2

And I descend from grace, In arms of undertow
I will take my place, In the great below
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Reply #313 posted 11/09/14 1:21pm

FragileUnderto
w

avatar

Cant believe my purple psychedelic pimp slap pimp2

And I descend from grace, In arms of undertow
I will take my place, In the great below
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Reply #314 posted 11/09/14 1:26pm

smokeverbs

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FragileUndertow said:



smokeverbs said:



6. Purple Rain (demo)


I have my doubts about the authenticity of this one, but I would like to be proven wrong. My thoughts: Well, it sounds better than "Purple Rush" or "The Avenue", but this sound stitched together. The orchestra is too loud. The whole thing runs too slow. Was it last year when the "orchestral overdubs only" version of Purple Rain leaked? This sounds like someone laid that track over the original live version. You can still hear the Audience, especially in the first half, sorry Fragile. The string coda is Out Of Synch with the rest of the track. Now, this is all nicely done for the most part, but my verdict is Homemade Mix, but Keep, because the sound quality is better than what we've had before. I'd love to hear some other folk's thoughts on this one.



hmmm I might have to listen to this close with earphones, Good catch!




Great review thumbs up!


.
Imprimis has basically disproven my theory about this Purple Rain. I'm not 100% convinced, but it's difficult to argue his logic.
Keep your headphones on.
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Reply #315 posted 11/09/14 1:31pm

FragileUnderto
w

avatar

smokeverbs said:

FragileUndertow said:

Great review thumbs up!

Imprimis has basically disproven my theory about this Purple Rain. I'm not 100% convinced, but it's difficult to argue his logic.



Yeah i was reading over all this discussions. You both made some really good points. Im on the fence with this too hmmm

Cant believe my purple psychedelic pimp slap pimp2

And I descend from grace, In arms of undertow
I will take my place, In the great below
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Reply #316 posted 11/09/14 1:34pm

aalloca

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smokeverbs said:

I can't speak for imprimis, but I have been an engineer for 20+ years, so we speak the same language. Cheers, everyone.

Cool . Yes the dialogue between you two was really interesting.

Music is the best...
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Reply #317 posted 11/09/14 1:45pm

JudasSmile

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smokeverbs said:

Freek99999 said:

Did the unreleased Flesh album also leak? I seem to have downloaded just that!

WHAT??? ALL FOUR SONGS?

I would love to hear the unexpurgated version of Junk Music.

U been bamboozled, hoodwinked, took.
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Reply #318 posted 11/09/14 1:50pm

FragileUnderto
w

avatar

dbpdexter said:

Freek99999 said:

Did the unreleased Flesh album also leak? I seem to have downloaded just that!

You might have downloaded "The Flash" album not Flesh. If you did actually download it that would be great. cool



im going to guess The Flash lol
If it was The Flesh it might be a bigger news then BFTP 2.0 lol

Only one can hope

Cant believe my purple psychedelic pimp slap pimp2

And I descend from grace, In arms of undertow
I will take my place, In the great below
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Reply #319 posted 11/09/14 1:54pm

smokeverbs

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I always liked that MC Flash album.
Keep your headphones on.
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Reply #320 posted 11/09/14 7:42pm

EddieC

nonamesleft said:

I found it today, sort of: downloadable one track at a time and they're 64kbps, sad so hardly worth the effort unless desperate. How long before I get desperate....

Yeah, I found the same thing... but I was already desperate. so I'll take what I can get when I can. I'll keep looking, obviously--but the idea of not having them at all made me go ahead and get what I could now.

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Reply #321 posted 11/09/14 9:48pm

imprimis

Certain song titles, along with a certain impishly androgynous alter-ego's name, on a popular venue can be to your benefit.

EddieC said:

nonamesleft said:

I found it today, sort of: downloadable one track at a time and they're 64kbps, sad so hardly worth the effort unless desperate. How long before I get desperate....

Yeah, I found the same thing... but I was already desperate. so I'll take what I can get when I can. I'll keep looking, obviously--but the idea of not having them at all made me go ahead and get what I could now.

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Reply #322 posted 11/09/14 11:23pm

Revolution81

avatar

Freek99999 said:

Did the unreleased Flesh album also leak? I seem to have downloaded just that!

Depends what you mean by "leak". I'd be surprised if you managed to download it.
What's the use in half a story, half a dream
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Reply #323 posted 11/10/14 12:22am

Freek99999

I was surprised too smile But it sounds like the real deal. Three instrumental songs, Junk music being the longest. We already had A couple of miles so the lp is now complete!

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Reply #324 posted 11/10/14 2:16am

TheEnglishGent

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Found the tracks for Blast but all in 64k mp3 format sad. Why did anyone even bother uploading those?!

RIP sad
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Reply #325 posted 11/10/14 2:32am

yeahronimo

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Freek99999 said:

I was surprised too smile But it sounds like the real deal. Three instrumental songs, Junk music being the longest. We already had A couple of miles so the lp is now complete!

OMG, it IS the real deal. I thought this would never get out.

[Edited 11/10/14 9:04am]

[Edited 11/10/14 9:05am]

This is not music, this is a trip
No, it's not a drug, it's something more hip
Don't need no reefer, don't need cocaine
Purple music does the same to my brain
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Reply #326 posted 11/10/14 4:12am

sulls

avatar

Freek99999 said:

I was surprised too smile But it sounds like the real deal. Three instrumental songs, Junk music being the longest. We already had A couple of miles so the lp is now complete!

SERIOUSLY????

"I like to watch."
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Reply #327 posted 11/10/14 5:01am

EddieC

Freek99999 said:

I was surprised too smile But it sounds like the real deal. Three instrumental songs, Junk music being the longest. We already had A couple of miles so the lp is now complete!

Wait a second--can this be true? If so--obviously I have to hear this.

.

Oh--and I'm still listening to the new music, by the way. I haven't forgotten it--but I'm still excited by the old.

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Reply #328 posted 11/10/14 5:59am

OperatingTheta
n

Still can't find any of it but appreciating your descriptions and analysis greatly.

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Reply #329 posted 11/10/14 6:05am

djThunderfunk

avatar

Freek99999 said:

Did the unreleased Flesh album also leak? I seem to have downloaded just that!


eek

ALL authoritarians are fascists, ALL fascists are evil.
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