mask said:

On the other hand, how cool it would be to receive a cease and desist letter from Prince? I'd probably hang it on the wall.

mask said:

[Not nice to falsely accuse someone when you have no proof snip - luv4u]

... ...

That's more frightening than any letter.

NouveauDance said:

22yo caramel piece of ass.

Bit old for him, no?

skywalker said:

Zannaloaf said:

One more thought on this. Troy was clearly not making a profit. No one paid him for all teh time he put in, and if you look at his prices I would be surprised if it covered his costs. Fully printed tees are one offs - as in no wy could you aford to buy dozen and mark them up unless you were loaded. The calendars were reasonable as well.
Like I said earlier, I'm sure this could easily be won in a court case, but you'd need money to do it.

Even people like George Lucas - who is clearly out to make a buck - let's fans do Star Wars films and use likenesses under certain cionditions. If Prince wanted to stop just the merch, he could have said so. Instead he squashed all of it.

It's a shame this is what we have to talk about instead of some awesome music. I was just thinking back to hearing of a new Prince album and being excited ahead of time instead of wait and see. Perhaps more time making (good) stuff instead of hopping all over people wanting to enjoy his muisc and image would be a better use of time.

1. Profit doesn't matter. They were for advertised for sale. That's copyright law.

Copyright of what?

Of his own image?

There are more differences between the doll(s) and the person that accuses than there are resemblances.

Did the accuser create his own image? He should know better.

2. George Lucas is relaxed on a lot of this stuff, but he is essentially letting fans infringe on his trademark. It is within in his rights to not allow it...if he wants.

The George Lucas thing is slightly different as that is about his work, something he created instead of his personal image.

It's not like it's a rule/copyright law that Prince invented. Nor is he the only one that enforces it.

What about the creative input of the doll-maker? Where does the border lie between copyright infringement and at least a derived work? Or a whole new work?

See that this 'copyright law' strangles creativity? Stifles innovation?

Mr doesnt-pay-his-bills-on-time aka doesnt-keep-his-perfume-contract-up goes after a no-profit dollmaker.

That is what it is.

Now if mr dollmaker would leave the dolls the same but paint them purple and write in black lettering some words on them explaning the lack of payment for mr P's taxes, the lack of decent contract management, etc. Then what?

Still infringement? On the truth?

NouveauDance said:

Troy's a guy right?

I'm just imagining what the reaction would've been if the maker of the dolls was a 22yo caramel piece of ass. Probably would've been the subject of his next aborted TV movie or a 3CD set.

reply of the year !!

paulludvig said:

skywalker said:

He should make Wendy and Lisa dolls and sell them. Complete with "is the water warm enough" hot tub.

mask said:

KCOOLMUZIQ said:

I told Troy not long ago that hope the Prince Police don't come after him. I feel bad 4 him. But him being a fan of Prince it had 2 cross his mind.I expected it to happen. I'm glad i just got my calendar the other day.

I have to stand by Prince's decision. It is his likeness & right to control anything that profits off of his likeness. know this will bring the already Prince haters a reason to hate on him again. I wish that all of U haters will just close ur accounts & go away for good... Maybe this will do it

hate U

[Not nice to falsely accuse someone when you have no proof snip - luv4u]

How do I know if Im posting around him? How can he cause me personal problems? U IZ A CRAZAY!!

rdhull said:

thepope2the9s said:

vague resemblence? really..... .

Id know that ass anywhere

You ain't right.

Firstly. my heart goes out to Troyy! He is a pretty cool guy and he is acreative artist!

I am not going to say like some here, that I am selling all of my Prince material and going on strike against Prince. LOL.

Yes, this type of attitude is typical of the guy, but you really wonder why does he go though all of these measures?

I am very sadden that Troy has put all of his energy and love into something that was directed to inspire people. 'Le Petit Prince' is in no way putting Prince in danger. I don't get how his lawyers can go to this extent. I understand Prince does not want his image on anything, but going to an artist face about it is so little. (Excuse the pun) But...I mean I don't get it..

troygua said:

I have so much to say and so little energy to say it. So I'm just gonna copy and paste some of items from Facebook:

The project was never meant to become what it has. I just made a little tribute sculpture, mostly for my own pleasure. I took some pics, put them on my site, they turned up on prince.org, then picked up all over the place. Folks started requesting different looks and recreations, and I took the requests as a challenge, ran with it, and it exploded. I got to the point where I had to finish out the timeline of Prince's career - I had come too far not to. I had countless requests to buy the sculpture, to reproduce it, and I refused time and time again - because *that* would be infringement without his consent. But producing a photographic body of work using something *I* created as the subject? I could argue that point until I pass out. But I will not do it. This project was meant as a tribute, and it will remain so.

Regarding "profits" and "infringement":

Hey all - Troy here. I just want to say thanks again - the support here is blowing my mind. I also want to say that I never meant to start a 'Down-with-Prince' post. Although I'm grateful for the sentiments, and am also deeply disappointed by this sad turn of events, I will not bash nor abide the bashing of the man that inspired this project in the first place. I completely understand your feelings, and you are of course, free to express them, but I really just wanted to let you all know how much this project has meant to me and thank you for everything you've given me.

And now I'd like to address a comment I just saw - Prince *shouldn't* bear people making a profit on his likeness - and that's not what I was doing. That may be his perception, and it may even be your perception, but it is VERY IMPORTANT for me that you all understand this: that simply is *not* the case. Any pittance of money I received from selling merchandise based on my work was put directly back into the project. I was hoping to ultimately create a beautiful photo book capturing the entire project - a keepsake for you and me - and something I was NOT planning on profitting from.

Now, I'll address one more point - if it were indeed Prince's actual image, if I were stealing directly from existing work, if I were to reproduce the sculptural doll and sell it - *that* would be infringement. I have gone along under the belief that since *I* created this sculpture and created my *own* photographic body of work using the sculpture as the subject, recreating any and all imagery, that I would be ok. I really believed this was my art, inspired by Prince, yes, but still mine. I could possibly fight this point - but what would that gain? I can't afford a lawyer, and I will not fight the man that this tribute is all about.

My initial statement:

Hello, Friends.

It is with a heavy heart that I write this - I have been issued a cease & desist order from Prince’s attorneys. This means that the Le Petit Prince project has reached its untimely end and must be removed from the internet by Friday, November 16, 4pm PST. There are many points touched upon in the order, and I will, of course, comply with their demands, whether I agree with them as

matters of artistic freedom or not. I simply do not wish to fight with my hero, and it is terribly disheartening to think that he may hold ill will towards me and this project. I wrote back to the attorneys and told them I would indeed comply, but wanted to address some of the issues brought up in their letter. I’d like to share these paragraphs with you, which contains sentiments that I hold dear and true:

“Any products sold are returning no profit to me - they are simply a meager means to fund and continue the LPP project, which is a work of fine art. And this funding, I would argue, is anything but “ill-gotten gains”. That term pains me, as I do not intend, nor have I ever intended to profit from Prince without his consent. I have, in fact, refused countless pleas to recreate the sculpture and make it available for sale because I felt that that would indeed be attempting to profit illegally. The recreation of album art and iconic imagery, on the other hand, I felt was within my creative rights as an artist. This is artwork that I have made as a loving tribute to an artist that has inspired me for decades, and has shaped the person I have become. And this tribute has grown into something that I never foresaw nor intended - a joyful and positive experience for many, many people around the world. It has, to my utter amazement, brought so much happiness to so many, building a following and a momentum that has demanded it endure and expand.

I have, actually, attempted through modest connections to Mr. Nelson, to contact him to no avail. He is not an easy person to reach out to. I, on the other hand, am very easy to engage, and was actually, perhaps foolishly, hoping for contact from him regarding this project in a much more congenial form. If I had any possible way of reaching Mr. Nelson to ask him his thoughts on this matter or to propose a creative business venture, believe me, I would have. I would love nothing more, and would relish the opportunity to do so, still.”

The words “thank you” could never adequately qualify the truly staggering gratitude I feel towards everyone who fueled the passion for this project with their words of support and praise, with their love and positivity, and with their all around good will. This project grew into what it became because of you. Although I am saddened beyond words that it has reached its end, and that it has ended this way, I am also deeply grateful and happy beyond words that I’ve had this rare opportunity to make so many new friends, to make so many people smile, and to make so many tiny sets of funky clothes.

I hope we can continue to be in touch in another corner of this great big universe somewhere. And I hope you had fun. I know I did.

For LPP, Troy Gua signing off...

Your response is very encouraging and the manner in which you speak shows your heart is in the right place. Your art will still live on, whether Prince approves it or not, you did your job making what inspired you. I would not even sweat the email, as Lisa told you herself you are an artist!

skywalker said:

Zannaloaf said:

educate yourself - he never sold the doll.

Okay, so he sold merchandise related to the dolls.

Not sure the Mad Magazine magazine analogy is the same. Parody/impersonations are a different bag?

Listen, I am not saying Prince is a swell guy or super fan friendly when it comes to his copyright, but obviously selling merchandise with some version of Prince's image (based on his likeness "technically" or not) is opening yourself up for legal headaches. I think if I reproduced and sold my own art of Prince's face, that he could come after me...especially if I incorporated things like his symbol etc.

He made one doll, fabricated it himself, made clothes himslef, shot photos himslef and made a tiny bit of mercahndise based on his art. Technically not on Prince's likeness. No judge in the world could say that was Prince he was photographing. He was photographing something he created. The bottom line is Prince could have not been a dick about it and simply asked for no merchndise to be sold but keep on creating.

Again, "technically not on Prince's likeness"? "Tiny bit of merchandise"? I think these are the sticking points to a cease and desist.

Maybe Prince has no rights at all on this, but I think that if someone made a cartoon that looked EXACTLY LIKE YOU and reproduced/sold books/calendars/posters of it, you'd have some legal ground to stop it.

http://fineartamerica.com/art/all/rock+and+roll/all

http://celebrity-caricature-art.com/rock-music.html

http://www.amazon.com/Stars-Kruger-Sebastian/dp/1883398274/ref=sr_1_2?

http://www.amazon.com/Stars-Calendar-Kruger-2000-Sebastian/dp/1883398428/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352919277&sr=1-10

s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352919267&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Stars-Kruger-2002-Calendar-Sebastian/dp/1883398533/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352919311&sr=1-11

I am 99.99999999 percent sure these people are not getting celebrities permission to do books, prints and calendars. And yet here they are making money off of likenesss in much larger ways than Troy. but it is THEIR ART...just like Troys was his.

novabrkr said:

rdhull said:

udo said:

skywalker said:

The George Lucas thing is slightly different as that is about his work, something he created instead of his personal image.

It's not like it's a rule/copyright law that Prince invented. Nor is he the only one that enforces it.

What about the creative input of the doll-maker? Where does the border lie between copyright infringement and at least a derived work? Or a whole new work?

See that this 'copyright law' strangles creativity? Stifles innovation?

Mr doesnt-pay-his-bills-on-time aka doesnt-keep-his-perfume-contract-up goes after a no-profit dollmaker.

That is what it is.

Now if mr dollmaker would leave the dolls the same but paint them purple and write in black lettering some words on them explaning the lack of payment for mr P's taxes, the lack of decent contract management, etc. Then what?

Still infringement? On the truth?

It seems like you already have a strong opinion/pov on Prince that is coloring your questioning.

Unfortunately, I don't know the ins and outs of copyright law as it relates to dolls/celebrity images.

I will ask you this-

Here is a picture of a Cyndi Lauper doll that Mattel sells:

[img:$uid]http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/shawnsolo3000/lauper_barbie_box.jpg[/img:$uid]

Mattel pays/paid Cyndi Lauper the rights to use her likeness and sell these dolls.

Here is a Michael Jackson doll that Sideshow Collectibles sells:

[img:$uid]http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/shawnsolo3000/MJdoll.jpg[/img:$uid]

They paid Jackon's estate money to use his likeness and sell the dolls.

Here is a Han Solo doll:

[img:$uid]http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/shawnsolo3000/handoll.jpg[/img:$uid]

Indiana Jones calendar:

[img:$uid]http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/shawnsolo3000/indycalendar.jpg[/img:$uid]

Han Solo T-shirt:

[img:$uid]http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/shawnsolo3000/hanshirt.jpg[/img:$uid]

Harrison Ford signed over the rights to use his face/likeness to Lucasfilm for the Han Solo/Indiana Jones dolls, picture, posters, calendars, shirts, happy meals. He got paid and authorized the use of his likeness. Harrison Ford/Lucasfilm gets MONEY because his face is on all of these.

Are you telling me that Troy's work weren't of Prince's likeness?

What if Prince wanted to sell his own dolls or the license to Mattel?

Again, I totally wish that Prince would chill on copryright infringement issues, but he won't.He is kind of a dick about it. Going after the fan base sucks.

I also wish he'd release all of his live footage, unreleased songs, and make new and retro posters and t-shirts. It would make bootlegs irrelevant, but he won't.

Still, that doesn't make him without rights to his stuff (whether it is his music, or his face, etc.)

[Edited 11/14/12 11:16am]

[Edited 11/14/12 11:17am]

[Edited 11/14/12 13:44pm]

At first I was Kinda Upset with Prince, But Now even tho I think This is Sad, I agree with Him. Troy First Said "There's Just One LPP And IT'S NOT FOR SALE!" and he started to upload photos of LPP With artistic Purposes only, But then He was Recreating Prince's album covers and He wanted to sell a calendar With Le Petit Prince (which is Basically a Doll Version Of Prince) Pictures on it to sell. He was Also Selling T-Shirts With Prince's Face On them.

If you want to Sell something that Is related to somebody who is Extremely Famous, You need to get the permission of that Person First. I can't Make T-shirts With Michael Jackson's face On them Just Because he's My Inspiration and I felt Like putting His face On a Shirt. I need to Have the Permission of the Jackson's First Otherwise I'm going to be on trouble. That same thing Goes with Other artists Including Prince.

I'm an artist Myself And I Never make things related to Prince (Even tho I would Love to) Because I know how he is like, quite bitchy sometimes. Troy should've Known that before he started the whole LPP Thingy. I spoke with Troy a couple of times via FB And he was extremely happy and proud of his artwork, he is a really good person and he gave me really good advices, I'm grateful with him for everything.

I love Prince, And I always will No matter How many websites he shuts down, But seriously, Somebody needs to tell that Guy He isn't the only artist in this world! Troy Tried to Reach Out to work With him, but Prince Ignored him. Prince Loves James Brown, And He uses James lyrics and base-lines all the time, But If we are fans Of Prince we can't make stuff related to him? It's the same thing!

[Edited 11/14/12 12:38pm]

Graycap23 said:

novabrkr said:

Is this a staring contest or what?

NikkiAndTheRevolution said:

Why he gotta be so mean all the damn time?! Its not like those dolls were meant to make fun of him or anything like that! Troy made those dolls simply out of admiration. And PRINCE DAMMIT U HAVE ENOUGH MONEY AS IT IS. WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE ABOUT MONEY??! U cant control EVERYTH!ING, so quit trying! DX

I Agree with Everything you Just Said. Prince If you're reading this: Man, You are rich, you don't Need more money, Okay?

Troy Is One of your biggest Fans And I'm pretty sure He will still be your fan Even after this! So please don't Be so mean, He wasn't trying to Steal Your work or something like that!

Cus ur"No Video's On YouTube" policy STILL aint workin' out too well! DX

EXACTLY. IN SOUTHAMERICA WE CAN STILL WATCH ALL YOUR VIDEOS ON YT, SO KEEP TRYING , AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION, YOUTUBE ISN'T THE ONLY WEBSITE WHERE WE CAN FIND YOUR VIDEOS... THERE'S [Snip - luv4u], DID YOU KNOW?

ludwig said:

Graycap23 said:

Is this a staring contest or what?

I know this is going to sound mean, but I totally agree with Prince on this one. It's one thing to create a piece of artwork in homage to Prince, but it's another to sell it and profit from Prince's likeness.

Troy's work was great, but he should have known that he would need to get permission from Prince to sell items with his likeness on it. That's copyright 101.

At least Prince didn't wait for him to sell lots of items and then try to sue him for the money. He did just send a cease and decist order.

daPrettyman said:

I know this is going to sound mean, but I totally agree with Prince on this one. It's one thing to create a piece of artwork in homage to Prince, but it's another to sell it and profit from Prince's likeness.

Troy's work was great, but he should have known that he would need to get permission from Prince to sell items with his likeness on it. That's copyright 101.

At least Prince didn't wait for him to sell lots of items and then try to sue him for the money. He did just send a cease and decist order.

Yep.

daPrettyman said:

I know this is going to sound mean, but I totally agree with Prince on this one. It's one thing to create a piece of artwork in homage to Prince, but it's another to sell it and profit from Prince's likeness.

Troy's work was great, but he should have known that he would need to get permission from Prince to sell items with his likeness on it. That's copyright 101.

At least Prince didn't wait for him to sell lots of items and then try to sue him for the money. He did just send a cease and decist order.

I agree.

Also...I don't think I've seen anyone address this (granted, I haven't read this entire thread carefully), but is it just possible that Prince would object to this on the ground that it constitutes idolatry - and would be a violation of his faith? I mean...it does sort of have that "graven image" quality to it.

Not saying I think it is or isn't, just throwing out the possibility.

daPrettyman said:

I know this is going to sound mean, but I totally agree with Prince on this one. It's one thing to create a piece of artwork in homage to Prince, but it's another to sell it and profit from Prince's likeness.

Troy's work was great, but he should have known that he would need to get permission from Prince to sell items with his likeness on it. That's copyright 101.

At least Prince didn't wait for him to sell lots of items and then try to sue him for the money. He did just send a cease and decist order.

I agree with you Here. At first Everything was Cool, Troy was taking Pictures of LPP With artistic purposes only, He said that LPP Was Not on sale. but When I first saw all the "Prince and the Evolution" T-shirts with Prince's face on them and I saw he was selling them I knew this was going to end Like this. Troy is a smart guy and I bet He's Been Fan Of Prince for a long time, He Should have Known This was Going to end like this as soon as he started to SELL. I've been Here for a Year, Just a year, And one of the first things I learnt about Prince was His Copyright Issues and His Bitchy attitude sometimes...

GIOShokadelica said:

I've been Here for a Year, Just a year,

[Flame snip - luv4u].

I still don't understand why Prince just wasn't flattered. Maybe he could've talked with this guy about potentially making those dolls/calenders offical merchandise?

This just makes him cold, and unavailible. I mean, I don't think this guy did any harm. Then again, he's right now riding on the "I'm a legend" cloud and really doesn't feel obliged to thank or even be kind to the people that put him where he is.

He really needs to know how to nurture "fandom".

I most definately disagree with Prince's stance on youtube videos and the Internet.

HOWEVER,

If some guy out there started making dolls from my image, putting it out there on the internet and selling them without my permission I would not allow it, personally. It doesn't matter than its a labor of love for him or he's not getting rich. I would be incredibly flattered but if I'm not feeling it then I'm just not feeling it.

Why this artist thought that this would be okay with Prince is beyond me.

I think the craftsmanship was truly amazing, impressive, excellent, but Prince is not into that. Now that Lisa voiced her opinions, he can go ahead and make Wendy and Lisa dolls and sell them all he wants.

Just my opinion.

[Edited 11/14/12 12:54pm]

metallicjigolo said:

I get that troy is talented no argument there. And he probably could have gotten away with making those dolls and photographing them for artistic purposes. But the moment you start recreat ing album covers and selling that product infringes on Prince's rights.

No it doesn't.

yay! Bart's here!

BartVanHemelen said:

metallicjigolo said:

I get that troy is talented no argument there. And he probably could have gotten away with making those dolls and photographing them for artistic purposes. But the moment you start recreat ing album covers and selling that product infringes on Prince's rights.

No it doesn't.

wonder505 said:

I most definately disagree with Prince's stance on youtube videos and the Internet.

HOWEVER,

If some guy out there started making dolls from my image, putting it out there on the internet and selling them without my permission I would not allow it, personally. It doesn't matter than its a labor of love for him or he's not getting rich. I would be incredibly flattered but if I'm not feeling it then I'm just not feeling it.

Why this artist thought that this would be okay with Prince is beyond me.

I think the craftsmanship was truly amazing, impressive, excellent, but Prince is not into that. Now that Lisa voiced her opinions, he can go ahead and make Wendy and Lisa dolls and sell them all he wants.

Just my opinion.

Calling it the "Fancy Lesbian Collection."

Genesia said:

wonder505 said:

I most definately disagree with Prince's stance on youtube videos and the Internet.

HOWEVER,

If some guy out there started making dolls from my image, putting it out there on the internet and selling them without my permission I would not allow it, personally. It doesn't matter than its a labor of love for him or he's not getting rich. I would be incredibly flattered but if I'm not feeling it then I'm just not feeling it.

Why this artist thought that this would be okay with Prince is beyond me.

I think the craftsmanship was truly amazing, impressive, excellent, but Prince is not into that. Now that Lisa voiced her opinions, he can go ahead and make Wendy and Lisa dolls and sell them all he wants.

Just my opinion.

Calling it the "Fancy Lesbian Collection."

Graycap23 said:

U had 2 know that was coming.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^