and because i'm in a talkative mood...

i feel kinda bad for saying that a person's music is 'unremarkable'... an artist repeatedly puts his balls out for people to stomp on. When they put their heart in something and present what they think is the best they can do in the given circumstances, it seems extremely harsh to call it irrelevant. In fact even when an artist phones it in, I'm not entirely comfortable in criticizing them unless I paid too much money.

I dunno. I'm not obligated to like everything I hear and I'm free to state my opinion, but it somehow seems unfair to speak up about the perceived failures of an artist without acknowledging how much I enjoy the successes. And I enjoy Prince's successes VERY much, it's hard to put into words. I'm extremely glad he's had such a long and fruitful career for me to enjoy, judge, praise and critique at my leisure, and I hope it continues well into the future.

fusk said:

and because i'm in a talkative mood...

i feel kinda bad for saying that a person's music is 'unremarkable'... an artist repeatedly puts his balls out for people to stomp on. When they put their heart in something and present what they think is the best they can do in the given circumstances, it seems extremely harsh to call it irrelevant. In fact even when an artist phones it in, I'm not entirely comfortable in criticizing them unless I paid too much money.

I dunno. I'm not obligated to like everything I hear and I'm free to state my opinion, but it somehow seems unfair to speak up about the perceived failures of an artist without acknowledging how much I enjoy the successes. And I enjoy Prince's successes VERY much, it's hard to put into words. I'm extremely glad he's had such a long and fruitful career for me to enjoy, judge, praise and critique at my leisure, and I hope it continues well into the future.

ya, i hate to be brutal in criticizing any artists work, I'm one myself and it's no fun to have people take shots at something you put you're all into. However, those people, I know from experience ain't going nowhere. Most of those kind are unhappy with themselves, want to criticize other people and can't stand it when someone else thinks they are great. I don't really strongly dislike any of Prince's work outside of his missteps into hip hop which considering how everyone had to acknowledge it is forgivable. The fans here are pretty picky and in one of the other threads, I said "if I were Prince, I wouldn't want fans like most of you guys".

Out of curiosity, those of you who say you haven't been moved by Prince's music since [insert whichever album applies], are there other artists that move you now the way Prince did in his heyday?

I've been a Prince fan since the very early 80's and I dig a lot of his stuff from throughout his career. But, I admit, few things hit me like Parade or SOTT did when I first heard them. Hell, I don't even think those albums hit me like they used to. Like some other posters said, I can remember listening to Prince for hours, memorizing the words to every song, reading the liner notes down to "lyric translation by..." But with age, real life manages to creep in when I'm listening to something. Midway through a great song, I'll start thinking like, I've never noticed this mole on my shoulder...I hope it's not cancer.

And I don't think it's the music itself. I've discovered a lot great artists in my adulthood, from The Beatles and Dylan to Miles Davis and Sonny Rollins, but I've never been entranced like I was as kid listening to Prince.

that's what I'm talking about, I was loving the shit out of Springsteen's latest album but for whatever reason, i put it on now and my mind just ain't on music. What's the difference here? I guess our ability to invest ourselves as enthusiastic receptors changes on a day to day basis as well as age. Most of the time I'm too anxious to really chill out and listen to music by anyone.

fusk said:

I dunno if it's all an age thing... I'm a younger fan, and the stuff that moves me is mostly from the 80s. There's some gold in the later decades and the 80s definitely aren't perfect, but... well, here's the story.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

jayARDAHB said:

SPYZFAN1 said:

J...In a way I kind of hear what you are saying. The classic titles you mentioned were coming from a young guy who was wild, free and pushing the envelope. For some of us those songs are attached to our youth. There's some folks who thought with the name change/being married/WB fiasco/SLAVE on his face, etc he lost his edge and his mind.

There's some fans that I know that hated "T.G.E" when it came out. They wanted to know where was the next "Erotic City" or "Luv Or $". Now they consider "T.G.E" a classic.

P is mature and has a different train of thought and lifestyle now. I thought "Lotus" was great and it was a good return to form. It also made up for the lackluster CD "Planet Earth"..(just my opinion). I guess when an artist gets to a certain point the subject matter starts to change and they find (or run out of) different things to sing about.

I liked "Sticky Like Glue" and "Lauvaux"..(did I spell that right?)..Those 2 had the classic sounds of 80's Prince to me. Who knows?..He still may have a new few tricks and gems hidden away. Hopefully they'll be on his next CD.

"Colonized Mind" was borrowed? I kinda got the "Jimi/Watchtower" vibe from that one.

Thanks for responding... I hear you about the younger guy older mature guy perspective... I guess it's safe to say that the younger more wild guy set the bar really high for the older guy but there's a but here... Laveuax and Sticky Like Glue were my favorites as well... Sticky Like Glue sounded like he went in with his main instruments and just made something funky and cool. I get the impression that Prince is bored... He's been a recording artist for more than 30 years now. Here's hoping he meets someone that wants to challenge him again and they put out some raw and fresh. Jay

I get this impression as well.

thedance said:

I agree with the original poster, Jay.

the last really exciting Prince albums were Come & The Gold Experience.

those were really exciting to me, and that was 17-18 years ago.

and now, Prince is a free artist??

- damn no great ALBUM came out of that.

I am disappointed,

should I or

Hey thedance,

That was a long time ago wasn't it?!?! God, how time just flies!!!

Anyhow, Come was a great record and I've felt this way since its release in 1994.

I hope somehow Prince gets inspired to try new sounds and tackle new genres of music.

When he comes back to Earth, maybe he can sing songs about some of the things that he has experienced that we also experience but I highly doubt that will happen...

I hold very closely the material he released from 78 to 95 and take what I can from the stuff that followed... just imagine the Lovesexy era Prince, who had an incredible band and who arranged phenomenal versions of his material, releasing the bland drivel he called NewPowerSoul!!!!

YIKES!!! The guy that wrote La La La He He Hee released that stinker! I could never have imagined that so many years later.

I have to say the last time Prince had me absolutely rivetted was when I first heard Avalanche, those are songs I couldn't have cared less for when I was young and likewise Prince would have never written something like that in the years when he was doing his best to distance himself from his blackness and try to crossover. It was a potent song for me and I'd say he still has his old powers in those moments.

skywalker said:

fusk said:

I dunno if it's all an age thing... I'm a younger fan, and the stuff that moves me is mostly from the 80s. There's some gold in the later decades and the 80s definitely aren't perfect, but... well, here's the story.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

24. Not the youngest, but Prince was never on my radar as a kid and I didn't start seriously listening to his stuff until... I'm not sure, 2009, maybe.

xpertluva said:

Out of curiosity, those of you who say you haven't been moved by Prince's music since [insert whichever album applies], are there other artists that move you now the way Prince did in his heyday?

That's a tough question, because no artist has sucked me in and totally dominated my listening habits as much as Prince, but there's lots of music that moves me in a different way... I guess COIL is a good example. I never want to listen to coil over and over again, but I think a lot of their music is incredible, and I feel it in my gut, how good it is. I'd say Prince is the most addicting, but not necessarily the best or the most moving.

The Beatles are great, but they're like cotton candy to me. I can't eat too much cotton candy because it's all sweet and nothing else. Prince is like cotton candy that doesn't make me sick. His music has an addictive property but there's enough savoury stuff to chew on and digest that it doesn't wear itself out too quickly.

jayARDAHB said:

Hey everyone, I saw the guy live at the metropolis in Montreal recently and then shortly after for two shows in Toronto and then in London, Ontario. The metropolis show was off the chain!!! He was brilliant as was the crowd. Unfortunately, I'm getting the impression that the guy is done as a studio act. He hasn't really blown my mind since the Come and Gold Experience era. Do you think he's got another Mountains, I Hate U, Come, And God Created Woman, Morning Papers, Hello, If I Was Your Girlfriend or Little Red Corvette in him? Songs like 17 Days and She's Always In My Hair are treasures from the past and he's written nothing like this in decades!!! Jay

He has blown my mind a lot since 1995, as much as before actually.

skywalker said:

alexnvrmnd777 said:

Sure, if a cocaine high lasted about 10+ years straight. But, it obviously doesn't, so this analogy is invalid.

10 years? 1978-1988? You are telling me that, in 1986, you dug Prince just as much as 1984? You mean to say, that you KNEW lovesexy was just as great as Sign O' The Times?

Back in the 80's, people (many many hardcore Prince fans included) were pissing and moaning that Prince had "abandoned his roots". Not many were feeling anything close to a cocaine high. They thought Prince had "lost it". They wanted Purple Rain, 1999, and "the old Prince".

The 90's were even worse. Funny that nowadays people tout the 80's as "untouchable" and even claim to love many 90's Prince albums that were routinely bitched about by Prince fans in the early days of the internet. Believe you me, no one was calling Come genius in 1994.

My point is, many a Prince album aren't appreciated for what they are until years after. So, it's easy to claim that certain eras were "golden" now, but during the time they weren't viewed that way.

Just check out some middle of the road reviews for classic Prince albums. Here is an example:

New Musical Express
April 12, 1986

Sometimes it pisses down in April

I TOOK 'Kiss' as a signal that we were being ushered back into the compressed, airtight funkworld of 'Dirty Mind'. Didn't flip over the song itself - slick metronome sexgospel - but what a relief to hear that funky, flecked, flicking guitar again.

It turns out we're not going back to that springy, spunky sound after all - 'Kiss' is on its own as a throwback to 'Head' and 'Party Up' and 'Do It All Night'. Not that Prince doesn't still have a filthy little mind, of course, just that these days he doesn't speak it quite so economically. It's all mixed he doesn't really know how to express, and that's become a drag.

A few things have changed since 'Around The World In A Day', it's true. For starters, there are no printed lyrics, so i don't have to pretend to have given his twee and icky poems my most careful consideration. Then for seconds there's no purple or paisley stuff on the sleeve - just plain ol' black and white narcissim (another throwback to 'Dirty Mind'). Most important, Prince isn't being such a sourpuss primadonna anymore. There I was thinking the little mulatto Amadeus was on the edge of a breakdown and suddenly he's all happy and relaxed and flirty in the 'Kiss' video.

Trouble is, i actually think 'Around The World In A Day' was the better record. For all its neo-psychedelic silliness it had three great songs, which is about three more than 'Parade' has - nothing here as witty as 'Pop Life', as mournful as 'America', or as anguished as 'Condition Of The Heart'. The worst thing about Prince's "maturity', if we can call it that, is that he has given up writing great songs - songs like 'When You Were Mine' - as a matter of course. I mean, if he can find time to bestow a morsel like 'Manic Monday' on four desperate California chicks who will probably never have another hit record in their lives, surely he could craft the odd decent tune for himself.

Prince, instead of writing simple, succinct, sexy songs, is always trying to save the world, which means that he is never content with anything but grandiose 'Sgt Pepper' albums where all the songs run into each onther and vast orchestras make a lot of superfluous noise. He is a master architect of sound but he will show off and spoil it all. His Rundgren-esque technosoup of Sly and Stevie Wonder is beginning to get very predictable.

The LP opens with 'Christopher Tracy's Parade', a typical fanfare for his highness 'Disneyland soundscape and pretty much a follow-through from the ambience of 'Paisley Park'. Who this tracy fellow is I don't know, though going by the closing elegy of 'Sometimes It Snows In April', I would guess that he is a deceased pal of the Minneapolitan midget's.

'New Position' follows with steel drums, a hard pop-funk beat, and yer basic lewd double entendre. Guitarist Wendy picks up for the strange, brief interlude of 'I Wonder U' (performances seem more democratically delegated this time around: P. isn't being such a spoilt-brat autocrat in his studio playpen) which slides swiftly into 'Under The Cherry Moon', title track of the unpromising-sounding flick for which this LP purports to be a soundtrack. I have seen many moons in my time, but never a cherry moon - how about you ? The song is a kind of kurt Weill lullaby co-authored by (Prince Sr ?) John L. Nelson.

Next up, 'Girls And Boys' is an adolescent 'Lady Marmalade' replete with "sauce" French bits and set to the beat of 'Take Me With U'. 'Life Can Be So Nice' bypasses me completely - a highspirited mess - before 'Venus De Milo' trails away at Side One's end as a slight sliver of mood-muzak, grand piano plus sweeping strings and reeds.

Flip the disc and we're straight back into Prince's booming sytnh beat on 'Mountains', which is a pounding Stevie Wonder/ Earth Wind And Fire epic. The Jazzy, smoochy 'Do U Lie ?' is a pleasant and slinky respite from such pomp.

'Kiss' then takes its isolated place in the remorseless parade of overdone semi-ideas, followed by the melodically beguiling 'Anotherloverholenyohead' (yes, it is a stupid title, isn't it). Finally, the showpiece ballad, 'Sometimes It Snows In April' (an even worse title) ends the record on a folksy acoustic noteand mourns the aforesaid departed Tracy. I feel that Prince is, on the whole, best at this most sentimental and foppishly despolate, but this is appalling kitsch and doesn't work at all.

I dunno. Is it possible, or even advisable, to take Prince seriously ? Do I have to watch Dynasty to have an attitude ? I find this record laboured and trite and self-satisfied and won't be listening to it again.

-- Barney Hoskyns

[Edited 6/19/12 16:06pm]

Barney Hoskyns (the writer of that review) was actually the first person I ever heard cite the 1980-1987 period as Prince's golden age. That was back in 1993. Nineteen years later he hasn't changed his mind.

Come wasn't considered a masterpiece in 1994 and it's not considered a masterpiece now. There's been no change there.

The 80s were Prince's peak but that doesn't mean everything he did then was perfect. Yes, there were some disgruntled fans when he went all psychedelic. That review actually makes some valid points (although it's completely unbalanced). Some of that shit on Parade and ATWIAD was kitsch and forced. But for every "Life Can Be So Nice" there was a "Kiss" or a "Raspberry Beret" (unarguably great songs) to balance it out, and even the songs that were misguided were at least interesting. There is something to be had from listening to them. Nowadays there's no reason to listen to new Prince stuff except to enjoy the echoes of what used to be. And that's fine by the way; if Prince never writes another song he has already given more than most people could ever dream of.

To sum up - his 80s work wasn't flawless (with an artist that prolific and adventurous it never could be) but it was frequently inspired and it excited a lot of people at the time and now. There has not been any revisionism there. Just check out what serious artists like Miles Davis, Eric Clapton, Randy Newman, etc were saying. These were older, musical snobs who worshipped him then and there, not years later. Needless to say he was also selling a lot more records back then so his work was reaching the man on the street more too.

fusk said:

and because i'm in a talkative mood...

i feel kinda bad for saying that a person's music is 'unremarkable'... an artist repeatedly puts his balls out for people to stomp on. When they put their heart in something and present what they think is the best they can do in the given circumstances, it seems extremely harsh to call it irrelevant. In fact even when an artist phones it in, I'm not entirely comfortable in criticizing them unless I paid too much money.

I dunno. I'm not obligated to like everything I hear and I'm free to state my opinion, but it somehow seems unfair to speak up about the perceived failures of an artist without acknowledging how much I enjoy the successes. And I enjoy Prince's successes VERY much, it's hard to put into words. I'm extremely glad he's had such a long and fruitful career for me to enjoy, judge, praise and critique at my leisure, and I hope it continues well into the future.

I know what you mean. I feel bad saying this stuff sometimes too. No artist intends to go downhill. I'm sure Prince is doing his best with every album. I try and balance it out by pointing out how great his overall contribution to music has been.

I also feel he could still make great music even now if he learned to collaborate more. That's the irony- he's actually still better now than most other artists out there but most other artists don't compose, produce, arrange and perform their music by themselves: therefore they're able to put out better albums than Prince despite being less talented than him.

xpertluva said:

Out of curiosity, those of you who say you haven't been moved by Prince's music since [insert whichever album applies], are there other artists that move you now the way Prince did in his heyday?

I've been a Prince fan since the very early 80's and I dig a lot of his stuff from throughout his career. But, I admit, few things hit me like Parade or SOTT did when I first heard them. Hell, I don't even think those albums hit me like they used to. Like some other posters said, I can remember listening to Prince for hours, memorizing the words to every song, reading the liner notes down to "lyric translation by..." But with age, real life manages to creep in when I'm listening to something. Midway through a great song, I'll start thinking like, I've never noticed this mole on my shoulder...I hope it's not cancer.

And I don't think it's the music itself. I've discovered a lot great artists in my adulthood, from The Beatles and Dylan to Miles Davis and Sonny Rollins, but I've never been entranced like I was as kid listening to Prince.

In a word, yes. I tuned out from Prince after NPS in 1998. It was about a year after that that I got seriously into Bob Dylan. A few years after that I got seriously into Bruce Springsteen. I love their music just as much as I loved what Prince was doing in his heyday.

More recently, there have been younger artists like The Kings Of Leon who I've enjoyed just as much too. Bat For Lashes, Alanis Morisette..... the list goes on.

jayARDAHB said:

Hey everyone, I saw the guy live at the metropolis in Montreal recently and then shortly after for two shows in Toronto and then in London, Ontario. The metropolis show was off the chain!!! He was brilliant as was the crowd. Unfortunately, I'm getting the impression that the guy is done as a studio act. He hasn't really blown my mind since the Come and Gold Experience era. Do you think he's got another Mountains, I Hate U, Come, And God Created Woman, Morning Papers, Hello, If I Was Your Girlfriend or Little Red Corvette in him? Songs like 17 Days and She's Always In My Hair are treasures from the past and he's written nothing like this in decades!!! Jay

I became a enthisiast of Prince during the 'God Experience' Era or 'Emancipation' Era and I missed out on the 'hey-day' of Prince video, radio and the like ( vision and sound ). Personally speaking I cannot say if he's done as a 'studio act', per-se because he's went the 'independent artist' route and if he puts out another album in say Indonesia only, I'm still gettin' it. There bound to be at least THREE songs on the album I'd like almost instantly and the rest will have to grow on me.

Albums haven't blown my mind but, the last album I liked from first to last track was 'The Rainbow Children', not to say any other album before or after that wasn't up good.

midnightmover said:

Barney Hoskyns (the writer of that review) was actually the first person I ever heard cite the 1980-1987 period as Prince's golden age. That was back in 1993. Nineteen years later he hasn't changed his mind.

Come wasn't considered a masterpiece in 1994 and it's not considered a masterpiece now. There's been no change there.

The 80s were Prince's peak but that doesn't mean everything he did then was perfect. Yes, there were some disgruntled fans when he went all psychedelic. That review actually makes some valid points (although it's completely unbalanced). Some of that shit on Parade and ATWIAD was kitsch and forced. But for every "Life Can Be So Nice" there was a "Kiss" or a "Raspberry Beret" (unarguably great songs) to balance it out, and even the songs that were misguided were at least interesting. There is something to be had from listening to them. Nowadays there's no reason to listen to new Prince stuff except to enjoy the echoes of what used to be. And that's fine by the way; if Prince never writes another song he has already given more than most people could ever dream of.

To sum up - his 80s work wasn't flawless (with an artist that prolific and adventurous it never could be) but it was frequently inspired and it excited a lot of people at the time and now. There has not been any revisionism there. Just check out what serious artists like Miles Davis, Eric Clapton, Randy Newman, etc were saying. These were older, musical snobs who worshipped him then and there, not years later. Needless to say he was also selling a lot more records back then so his work was reaching the man on the street more too.

I hear you and agree with a lot of what you are saying.

My point is that, everyone has different ideas of when "Prince's golden era" was. Some say everything before 1985. Some say everything up to 1995. Some say, everything was good until he stopped swearing/met LG, etc.

What is problematic about the entire thing is that these "eras" must always be categorized retroactively. It's easy enough to say Prince of (insert current year here) is shit, but the fact is that people often view/frame things differently in a a few years time. Mr. Barney Hoskins would be a prime example of this.

[Edited 6/22/12 7:27am]

fusk said:

xpertluva said:

Out of curiosity, those of you who say you haven't been moved by Prince's music since [insert whichever album applies], are there other artists that move you now the way Prince did in his heyday?

That's a tough question, because no artist has sucked me in and totally dominated my listening habits as much as Prince, but there's lots of music that moves me in a different way... I guess COIL is a good example. I never want to listen to coil over and over again, but I think a lot of their music is incredible, and I feel it in my gut, how good it is. I'd say Prince is the most addicting, but not necessarily the best or the most moving.

The Beatles are great, but they're like cotton candy to me. I can't eat too much cotton candy because it's all sweet and nothing else. Prince is like cotton candy that doesn't make me sick. His music has an addictive property but there's enough savoury stuff to chew on and digest that it doesn't wear itself out too quickly.

Good analogy!

midnightmover said:

xpertluva said:

Out of curiosity, those of you who say you haven't been moved by Prince's music since [insert whichever album applies], are there other artists that move you now the way Prince did in his heyday?

I've been a Prince fan since the very early 80's and I dig a lot of his stuff from throughout his career. But, I admit, few things hit me like Parade or SOTT did when I first heard them. Hell, I don't even think those albums hit me like they used to. Like some other posters said, I can remember listening to Prince for hours, memorizing the words to every song, reading the liner notes down to "lyric translation by..." But with age, real life manages to creep in when I'm listening to something. Midway through a great song, I'll start thinking like, I've never noticed this mole on my shoulder...I hope it's not cancer.

And I don't think it's the music itself. I've discovered a lot great artists in my adulthood, from The Beatles and Dylan to Miles Davis and Sonny Rollins, but I've never been entranced like I was as kid listening to Prince.

In a word, yes. I tuned out from Prince after NPS in 1998. It was about a year after that that I got seriously into Bob Dylan. A few years after that I got seriously into Bruce Springsteen. I love their music just as much as I loved what Prince was doing in his heyday.

More recently, there have been younger artists like The Kings Of Leon who I've enjoyed just as much too. Bat For Lashes, Alanis Morisette..... the list goes on.

That's cool. I think a lot of it depends on the listener. I'm just not sure if I have it in me to be moved like that again.

If Prince "is done as a studio act", as you say, it has NOTHING to do with his material. I've been more excited about Prince's releases since 2000 than I ever was in the '90s.

'The Rainbow Children'

'N.E.W.S.'

'Musicology'

'3121'

'Planet Earth'

'Lotusflow3r'

All fantastic albums. 'MPLSound' and '20ten' were also slammin'.

We all know he said he's "in recording rehab", and won't release another album until the state of the industry changes, with regards to piracy of music, etc.

I think that he has lost interest in sharing his new creations with a laregly unappreciative fan base. Perhaps he is planning on yet another distribution method.

Who knows... maybe all of this touring is creating enough revenue to fund his own distribution. Previously, he relied on others for distribution of his label. He could have a plan to devise a massive independent distribution. Possibly the plan is to raise global awareness of his music, then release something on a global level.

Of course, there's always the argument of:

"Why doesn't he just create a website, and let folks order new albums?"

I would say that would limit the buyers to mainly just his fanbase.

Others may say: "Why not just charge for a download, and therefore he would have no material costs?"

Personally, I prefer a physical format with artwork and credits... Vinyl or CD... and no, I don't want to make my own CD inserts.

I'd say he is disgruntled with both the state of the "single-minded" music trends - All based on singles not albums, and downloading mp3s via iTunes, combined with the constant negativity and bashing he gets from a lot of his so-called fans.

That's all.

Peace.

and has been for awhile.

skywalker said:

midnightmover said:

Barney Hoskyns (the writer of that review) was actually the first person I ever heard cite the 1980-1987 period as Prince's golden age. That was back in 1993. Nineteen years later he hasn't changed his mind.

Come wasn't considered a masterpiece in 1994 and it's not considered a masterpiece now. There's been no change there.

The 80s were Prince's peak but that doesn't mean everything he did then was perfect. Yes, there were some disgruntled fans when he went all psychedelic. That review actually makes some valid points (although it's completely unbalanced). Some of that shit on Parade and ATWIAD was kitsch and forced. But for every "Life Can Be So Nice" there was a "Kiss" or a "Raspberry Beret" (unarguably great songs) to balance it out, and even the songs that were misguided were at least interesting. There is something to be had from listening to them. Nowadays there's no reason to listen to new Prince stuff except to enjoy the echoes of what used to be. And that's fine by the way; if Prince never writes another song he has already given more than most people could ever dream of.

To sum up - his 80s work wasn't flawless (with an artist that prolific and adventurous it never could be) but it was frequently inspired and it excited a lot of people at the time and now. There has not been any revisionism there. Just check out what serious artists like Miles Davis, Eric Clapton, Randy Newman, etc were saying. These were older, musical snobs who worshipped him then and there, not years later. Needless to say he was also selling a lot more records back then so his work was reaching the man on the street more too.

I hear you and agree with a lot of what you are saying.

My point is that, everyone has different ideas of when "Prince's golden era" was. Some say everything before 1985. Some say everything up to 1995. Some say, everything was good until he stopped swearing/met LG, etc.

What is problematic about the entire thing is that these "eras" must always be categorized retroactively. It's easy enough to say Prince of (insert current year here) is shit, but the fact is that people often view/frame things differently in a a few years time. Mr. Barney Hoskins would be a prime example of this.

[Edited 6/22/12 7:27am]

I think among music experts (not fans who think that everything Prince touches is a masterpiece) there's much more common sense about Prince's golden era than you might think.

I myself can live with people saying Prince's golden era would be 1982-1988 or 1980-1987 or 1982-1987 or 1980-1988. Even 1978-1988 would make kind of sense if you consider Prince's musical development. People who go with the first half of the 80s do have very limited musical taste, because there's no way to deny the quality of Prince's later works from 1984/1985-1987/1988.

Viewing things differently in a few years time has to do mainly with the actual value of an album within Prince's ouevre, not so much with its place in music history. A bad album makes you appreciate its better predecessor a little bit more and vice versa.

midnightmover said:

skywalker said:

10 years? 1978-1988? You are telling me that, in 1986, you dug Prince just as much as 1984? You mean to say, that you KNEW lovesexy was just as great as Sign O' The Times?

Back in the 80's, people (many many hardcore Prince fans included) were pissing and moaning that Prince had "abandoned his roots". Not many were feeling anything close to a cocaine high. They thought Prince had "lost it". They wanted Purple Rain, 1999, and "the old Prince".

The 90's were even worse. Funny that nowadays people tout the 80's as "untouchable" and even claim to love many 90's Prince albums that were routinely bitched about by Prince fans in the early days of the internet. Believe you me, no one was calling Come genius in 1994.

My point is, many a Prince album aren't appreciated for what they are until years after. So, it's easy to claim that certain eras were "golden" now, but during the time they weren't viewed that way.

Just check out some middle of the road reviews for classic Prince albums. Here is an example:

New Musical Express
April 12, 1986

Sometimes it pisses down in April

I TOOK 'Kiss' as a signal that we were being ushered back into the compressed, airtight funkworld of 'Dirty Mind'. Didn't flip over the song itself - slick metronome sexgospel - but what a relief to hear that funky, flecked, flicking guitar again.

It turns out we're not going back to that springy, spunky sound after all - 'Kiss' is on its own as a throwback to 'Head' and 'Party Up' and 'Do It All Night'. Not that Prince doesn't still have a filthy little mind, of course, just that these days he doesn't speak it quite so economically. It's all mixed he doesn't really know how to express, and that's become a drag.

A few things have changed since 'Around The World In A Day', it's true. For starters, there are no printed lyrics, so i don't have to pretend to have given his twee and icky poems my most careful consideration. Then for seconds there's no purple or paisley stuff on the sleeve - just plain ol' black and white narcissim (another throwback to 'Dirty Mind'). Most important, Prince isn't being such a sourpuss primadonna anymore. There I was thinking the little mulatto Amadeus was on the edge of a breakdown and suddenly he's all happy and relaxed and flirty in the 'Kiss' video.

Trouble is, i actually think 'Around The World In A Day' was the better record. For all its neo-psychedelic silliness it had three great songs, which is about three more than 'Parade' has - nothing here as witty as 'Pop Life', as mournful as 'America', or as anguished as 'Condition Of The Heart'. The worst thing about Prince's "maturity', if we can call it that, is that he has given up writing great songs - songs like 'When You Were Mine' - as a matter of course. I mean, if he can find time to bestow a morsel like 'Manic Monday' on four desperate California chicks who will probably never have another hit record in their lives, surely he could craft the odd decent tune for himself.

Prince, instead of writing simple, succinct, sexy songs, is always trying to save the world, which means that he is never content with anything but grandiose 'Sgt Pepper' albums where all the songs run into each onther and vast orchestras make a lot of superfluous noise. He is a master architect of sound but he will show off and spoil it all. His Rundgren-esque technosoup of Sly and Stevie Wonder is beginning to get very predictable.

The LP opens with 'Christopher Tracy's Parade', a typical fanfare for his highness 'Disneyland soundscape and pretty much a follow-through from the ambience of 'Paisley Park'. Who this tracy fellow is I don't know, though going by the closing elegy of 'Sometimes It Snows In April', I would guess that he is a deceased pal of the Minneapolitan midget's.

'New Position' follows with steel drums, a hard pop-funk beat, and yer basic lewd double entendre. Guitarist Wendy picks up for the strange, brief interlude of 'I Wonder U' (performances seem more democratically delegated this time around: P. isn't being such a spoilt-brat autocrat in his studio playpen) which slides swiftly into 'Under The Cherry Moon', title track of the unpromising-sounding flick for which this LP purports to be a soundtrack. I have seen many moons in my time, but never a cherry moon - how about you ? The song is a kind of kurt Weill lullaby co-authored by (Prince Sr ?) John L. Nelson.

Next up, 'Girls And Boys' is an adolescent 'Lady Marmalade' replete with "sauce" French bits and set to the beat of 'Take Me With U'. 'Life Can Be So Nice' bypasses me completely - a highspirited mess - before 'Venus De Milo' trails away at Side One's end as a slight sliver of mood-muzak, grand piano plus sweeping strings and reeds.

Flip the disc and we're straight back into Prince's booming sytnh beat on 'Mountains', which is a pounding Stevie Wonder/ Earth Wind And Fire epic. The Jazzy, smoochy 'Do U Lie ?' is a pleasant and slinky respite from such pomp.

'Kiss' then takes its isolated place in the remorseless parade of overdone semi-ideas, followed by the melodically beguiling 'Anotherloverholenyohead' (yes, it is a stupid title, isn't it). Finally, the showpiece ballad, 'Sometimes It Snows In April' (an even worse title) ends the record on a folksy acoustic noteand mourns the aforesaid departed Tracy. I feel that Prince is, on the whole, best at this most sentimental and foppishly despolate, but this is appalling kitsch and doesn't work at all.

I dunno. Is it possible, or even advisable, to take Prince seriously ? Do I have to watch Dynasty to have an attitude ? I find this record laboured and trite and self-satisfied and won't be listening to it again.

-- Barney Hoskyns

[Edited 6/19/12 16:06pm]

Barney Hoskyns (the writer of that review) was actually the first person I ever heard cite the 1980-1987 period as Prince's golden age. That was back in 1993. Nineteen years later he hasn't changed his mind.

Come wasn't considered a masterpiece in 1994 and it's not considered a masterpiece now. There's been no change there.

The 80s were Prince's peak but that doesn't mean everything he did then was perfect. Yes, there were some disgruntled fans when he went all psychedelic. That review actually makes some valid points (although it's completely unbalanced). Some of that shit on Parade and ATWIAD was kitsch and forced. But for every "Life Can Be So Nice" there was a "Kiss" or a "Raspberry Beret" (unarguably great songs) to balance it out, and even the songs that were misguided were at least interesting. There is something to be had from listening to them. Nowadays there's no reason to listen to new Prince stuff except to enjoy the echoes of what used to be. And that's fine by the way; if Prince never writes another song he has already given more than most people could ever dream of.

To sum up - his 80s work wasn't flawless (with an artist that prolific and adventurous it never could be) but it was frequently inspired and it excited a lot of people at the time and now. There has not been any revisionism there. Just check out what serious artists like Miles Davis, Eric Clapton, Randy Newman, etc were saying. These were older, musical snobs who worshipped him then and there, not years later. Needless to say he was also selling a lot more records back then so his work was reaching the man on the street more too.

@midnightmover: More or less the same post as mine, except for the opinion on "Life can be nice". I think it's a very enjoyable piece of work.

hells to the naw, why is this thread still poppin?! the poster who cited Lotus Flower (single disc) as the proper answer to the preposterous assertion of the OP should've deaded this pages ago. Sales notwithstanding, let Clapton (and Miles if he were here), and others who've slept hear it and see if they don't agree, he still has it. these nostalgic mofos KILL me!

skywalker said:

steakfinger said:

Graycap23 said: What would Prince being done or not done as a studio act have to do with any other act? If Prince starts sucking, (the determination of which is purely subjective and belongs solely to the realm of opinion) that doesnt mean everyone else starts sucking, too. So to answer your question, it means nothing for other acts.

The question is a valid one.

If Prince's new music isn't turning you on, what new music is turning you one, and getting you excited?

BSLADE

If any Prince song blew my mind after The Gold Experience? Yes.

1995
Slave

The human body (His 90s electronic music statement/response - I love this song!)

My computer

2004
Illusion, coma, pimp and circustance

2006
Te amo, corazón

2007
Future baby mama

2009
Valentina
Wall of Berlin

I think his best album of the 90s was Emancipation. Better than Love Symbol and The Gold Experience, imo. It could've been edited to a 2 or 1 cd set, there are some fillers, but there's a LOT of gems in it.

About Lotusflower. I agree it's a good album, but I wouldn't say it's as good/genius as some of you said. Some compositions are relatively (to the rest of the Prince catalog) generic and uninspired. The guitar work, yes, is awesome, but, maybe except for Wall of Berlin, the songs itselves are not exactly THAT good, imo. I don't think it was supposed to be THE comeback album. For that "title", Musicology and 3121 would fit better.

About the whole question on this thread, I think that while songs like these ones I mentioned amazed me, his body of work from the mid-nineties on is clearly not as good as his 80s work, not close. But it doesn't mean it's bad. I wouldn't affirm that AT ALL. He did YES realease GREAT songs in this more recent period, and stopping to think, STILL songs that few or no one else could have done. So I think he's still great. The thing is that he had an untouchable period creatively in the 80s and every or almost everything he did later pale to a certain degree when compared to it. But it's not exclusively a Prince thing. It has happened to a lot of artists. Can you compare Stevie's classic 70s run of masterpieces with what he did before or after? Can you compare 80s flawless Thriller, Bad and 1979s Off the wall to other Michael Jackson works? Can you compare Louis Armstrong's Hot 5 and 7 from the late 20s and his early swing big band recordings from the 30s to the rest of his work? Or Duke Ellington in the late 20s and in the 30s, when he composed and recorded an incredible number of masterpieces, to the rest of his work? You will get other good works of course but, IN COMPARISION, it might be a little disappointing. It's a matter of point of view. Those "sacred" periods exist and happened to many artists.

Giovanni777 said:

If Prince "is done as a studio act", as you say, it has NOTHING to do with his material. I've been more excited about Prince's releases since 2000 than I ever was in the '90s.

'The Rainbow Children'

'N.E.W.S.'

'Musicology'

'3121'

'Planet Earth'

'Lotusflow3r'

All fantastic albums. 'MPLSound' and '20ten' were also slammin'.

Agreed. I mean, a person could have hypothetically said "Prince is done as a studio act" after he recorded "Jughead" . IMO it would have been more true then, than it is today. I prefer the 2000's output to the 90's as well.

skywalker said:

Giovanni777 said:

If Prince "is done as a studio act", as you say, it has NOTHING to do with his material. I've been more excited about Prince's releases since 2000 than I ever was in the '90s.

'The Rainbow Children'

'N.E.W.S.'

'Musicology'

'3121'

'Planet Earth'

'Lotusflow3r'

All fantastic albums. 'MPLSound' and '20ten' were also slammin'.

Agreed. I mean, a person could have hypothetically said "Prince is done as a studio act" after he recorded "Jughead" . IMO it would have been more true then, than it is today. I prefer the 2000's output to the 90's as well.

I don't think he'll ever be done until he's in the ground I write off these kinds of things. Duke Ellington was still working his heart out even as he was dying, you can't stop those guys. As far as the quality, opinions are no more than heresay really. I go with what I like and he almost always gives me that.

skywalker said:

midnightmover said:

Barney Hoskyns (the writer of that review) was actually the first person I ever heard cite the 1980-1987 period as Prince's golden age. That was back in 1993. Nineteen years later he hasn't changed his mind.

Come wasn't considered a masterpiece in 1994 and it's not considered a masterpiece now. There's been no change there.

The 80s were Prince's peak but that doesn't mean everything he did then was perfect. Yes, there were some disgruntled fans when he went all psychedelic. That review actually makes some valid points (although it's completely unbalanced). Some of that shit on Parade and ATWIAD was kitsch and forced. But for every "Life Can Be So Nice" there was a "Kiss" or a "Raspberry Beret" (unarguably great songs) to balance it out, and even the songs that were misguided were at least interesting. There is something to be had from listening to them. Nowadays there's no reason to listen to new Prince stuff except to enjoy the echoes of what used to be. And that's fine by the way; if Prince never writes another song he has already given more than most people could ever dream of.

To sum up - his 80s work wasn't flawless (with an artist that prolific and adventurous it never could be) but it was frequently inspired and it excited a lot of people at the time and now. There has not been any revisionism there. Just check out what serious artists like Miles Davis, Eric Clapton, Randy Newman, etc were saying. These were older, musical snobs who worshipped him then and there, not years later. Needless to say he was also selling a lot more records back then so his work was reaching the man on the street more too.

I hear you and agree with a lot of what you are saying.

My point is that, everyone has different ideas of when "Prince's golden era" was. Some say everything before 1985. Some say everything up to 1995. Some say, everything was good until he stopped swearing/met LG, etc.

What is problematic about the entire thing is that these "eras" must always be categorized retroactively. It's easy enough to say Prince of (insert current year here) is shit, but the fact is that people often view/frame things differently in a a few years time. Mr. Barney Hoskins would be a prime example of this.

[Edited 6/22/12 7:27am]

No, he wouldn't. He's been saying the same thing for at least 20 years now. There's no evidence he's changed his mind about Parade either. Not liking a specific album doesn't mean you don't think the overall work from that period was great. I have mixed feelings about Parade too. Prince himself echoed a lot of Barney Hoskyns' criticisms of that album just a few months later. The point is it's just one album and it's being compared with the other albums before and after it, like PR and SOTT, which most people agree are better.

And the claim that "everyone has different ideas of when Prince's golden era was" is misleading. At least 99% of people think his golden era was in the 80s and perhaps early-mid 90s too. Only a handful of geeks on websites like this would argue that his 00s work can hold a candle to that stuff. I've never met anyone in the real world who would argue that and I doubt you have either.

midnightmover said:

skywalker said:

I hear you and agree with a lot of what you are saying.

My point is that, everyone has different ideas of when "Prince's golden era" was. Some say everything before 1985. Some say everything up to 1995. Some say, everything was good until he stopped swearing/met LG, etc.

What is problematic about the entire thing is that these "eras" must always be categorized retroactively. It's easy enough to say Prince of (insert current year here) is shit, but the fact is that people often view/frame things differently in a a few years time. Mr. Barney Hoskins would be a prime example of this.

[Edited 6/22/12 7:27am]

No, he wouldn't. He's been saying the same thing for at least 20 years now. There's no evidence he's changed his mind about Parade either. Not liking a specific album doesn't mean you don't think the overall work from that period was great. I have mixed feelings about Parade too. Prince himself echoed a lot of Barney Hoskyns' criticisms of that album just a few months later. The point is it's just one album and it's being compared with the other albums before and after it, like PR and SOTT, which most people agree are better.

And the claim that "everyone has different ideas of when Prince's golden era was" is misleading. At least 99% of people think his golden era was in the 80s and perhaps early-mid 90s too. Only a handful of geeks on websites like this would argue that his 00s work can hold a candle to that stuff. I've never met anyone in the real world who would argue that and I doubt you have either.

This isn't the real world? OMG I'm gonna need a pill!

HonestMan13 said:

midnightmover said:

No, he wouldn't. He's been saying the same thing for at least 20 years now. There's no evidence he's changed his mind about Parade either. Not liking a specific album doesn't mean you don't think the overall work from that period was great. I have mixed feelings about Parade too. Prince himself echoed a lot of Barney Hoskyns' criticisms of that album just a few months later. The point is it's just one album and it's being compared with the other albums before and after it, like PR and SOTT, which most people agree are better.

And the claim that "everyone has different ideas of when Prince's golden era was" is misleading. At least 99% of people think his golden era was in the 80s and perhaps early-mid 90s too. Only a handful of geeks on websites like this would argue that his 00s work can hold a candle to that stuff. I've never met anyone in the real world who would argue that and I doubt you have either.

This isn't the real world? OMG I'm gonna need a pill!

Nah, this ain't the real world. That's the reason we all come here.