Pentacle said:

Mindflux, you and PT make valid points, but I think that opens the door for a much-needed discussion with iTunes.

With Prince, there is no discussion possible, and again, I don't think there's any meaning behind his remark. He has always been like a kid - if a game doesn't interest him anymore or he is losing, then he just walks away - looking for a new game to play. And the old one is 'dead'.

That he might not be able to distill the chemtrail conspiracies and the JW Bible into a coherent narrative, is understandable. But this subject he should know inside and out; he should be able to explain it in very clear terms. But he doesn't.

Thanks for the reply. We'll have to agree to disagree. I think Prince chooses not to explain it in very clear terms, because that's just giving more rope to be hung with. He hasn't survived as well as he has in his career and with the media without knowing how to play that game.

Of course he knows the industry inside out, but nobody ever said he should be the saviour. And, he did try it once anyway - back in the early days of his rally against WB, he actively tried to get other artists to walk away from their major label deals. I specifically remember him approaching Madonna and REM - they ignored him. Why? Far too comfortable with their existing set-up. The album Exodus, of course, was supposed to be the tale of a mass exodus of artists from the system that was screwing them. Again, it fell on deaf ears for the most part. Few artists have successfully gone around the industry - Ani Di Franco is a great example. But its not easy, swimming against the tide. But, the whole industry is changing and rapidly. We'll see where it goes next - but it was never really Prince's singular responsibility to change it.

Mindflux said:

Hmmm - some of what you say has some truth to it, but I don't agree with much of what you say.

Yes, the music industry was slow to react to consumer demands over easy access to digital music. Yes, they made major errors in public relations in pursuit of illegal-file sharing. But, what do you mean by "they never took care of their customers" and that "there weren't that many". Is there supposed to be some sort of "after-care" that record labels are supposed to provide?

They demanded DRM and even per-play-security (so a DRM'ed WMA file would always call back to a license server), and when those servers disappeared they simply said "wasn't us".

If you like an artist and buy a cd, that should provide a lifetime's enjoyment of that music - what else is the label supposed to do?

What if that CD is re-released weeks later as a special edition with a bonus CD/DVD -- why can't I upgrade the copy I already have? Why does the music industry consider me a criminal if I rip the music to MP3 to play it on my portable player (ideally they want me to buy those MP3s from a service that has been approved by them)?

And saying there weren't that many consumers is laughable. Some albums shift millions of units - that's not negligble by any stretch.

IIRC Wal-Mart was the biggest music seller in the USA -- and yet music was a blip on their radar, not even 1% of their revenue. I recall they once were thinking about just gettign rid of it and the US music industry immediately panicked because it would close down their most important sales channel.

Furthermore, the global industry is worth over $100billion - that's not small change either.

But only a fraction of the industries they're part of. Music/tv/movies are more about prestige than about making real money.

And I doubt you, or I, are an exception. I personally own over 1000 cds that I have purchased - that's a fairly decent life-time value as a consumer.

Then you are an exception. I know plenty of people who barely own records or DVDs. Simply look at the average spending on entertainment and then compare to what you're spending: if the average is $10 and you're spending $100, then for each of you there are 9 people who spend $0.

You say artists "never made money" and that's simply not true. It is true that you are an exception becoming a multi-millionaire in the industry, but not everyone is pursuing that sort of fortune.

Most artists on a major label never made money and are decades later still "paying off" those loans -- i.e. any money they make isn't paid out to them because the record company still keeps it. There's a story out there from one such artist who to his surprised learned one year that this amount wasn't decreased that year, but in fact increased. When he investigated, he found the label was screwing him left and right. (Can't find the link now.)

Furthermore, consumers have to shoulder some of the responsibility. In a survey in the UK in 2008, 80% of respondents said that they wanted a legal P2P service for music. Unfortunately, only 50% of the respondents felt the music's creators should be compensated!! How is that ever going to work?

2008 was about ten years after the start of P2P etcetera. Those attitudes should be blamed on the music industry itself: for years they refused to provide a legal solution and attacked infringers. If you blackmail people into paying thousands of dollars for sharing a single song...

Why do they think this? Well, that wasn't answered, but I think its because since Napster and file-sharing became so prevalant, consumers seem to think that somehow music should be free, which is a nonsense.

The music industry could have struck a deal with Napster, yet it refused. To this day the music industry sabotages itself by by demanding absurd amounts of money for songs being used in tv episodes released on DVD, or streaming services etcetera.

Why should an artist not be compensated for the work that should enrich your life and provide years of enjoyment.

This is a very recent/modern demand, BTW.

And your responses to Prince's efforts to circumvent these problems and his responses in interviews, well, they're just "typically Bart" - you rarely have a positive thing to say about him. You constantly imply he is a buffoon, despite having a successful career that spans nearly 4 decades.

Too bad he nearly went bankrupt a couple of times. He *is* a buffoon: have you never heard how he wanted the Nude tour stage to have fountains? Or listen to his ill-informed history lessons, or his chemtrails BS.

We all know why you feel that way but, seriously, isn't it time you got over that? Just to back this up, here's a quote from none other than Jimmy Jam, who I think has far better insight and credence than you;

"And not only has he done a lot musically throughout his career, he also challenged the way that records are released. He was one of the first artists to embrace putting his music out on the internet;

Bullcrap.

he stood up to Warner Bros. because he wanted to release more records than Warner Bros. wanted at that time.

Again: bullcrap. His demands were often absurd. He signed a contract that would pay him $10 million in advance for each record yet he balked at having to do enough promo to actually sell enough copies. D&P was his only record in ages to sell 5+ million, yet he took that as his base number, patently forgetting that he'd designed D&P for the charts and had toured the album worldwide for months.

For all your bitching about the industry and you're degrading of the people involved, I've never once see you present a viable solution - perhaps you should enlighten us?

Making shit up now, I see.

BartVanHemelen said:

Mindflux said:

Hmmm - some of what you say has some truth to it, but I don't agree with much of what you say.

Yes, the music industry was slow to react to consumer demands over easy access to digital music. Yes, they made major errors in public relations in pursuit of illegal-file sharing. But, what do you mean by "they never took care of their customers" and that "there weren't that many". Is there supposed to be some sort of "after-care" that record labels are supposed to provide?

They demanded DRM and even per-play-security (so a DRM'ed WMA file would always call back to a license server), and when those servers disappeared they simply said "wasn't us".

Again: bullcrap. His demands were often absurd. He signed a contract that would pay him $10 million in advance for each record yet he balked at having to do enough promo to actually sell enough copies. D&P was his only record in ages to sell 5+ million, yet he took that as his base number, patently forgetting that he'd designed D&P for the charts and had toured the album worldwide for months.

For all your bitching about the industry and you're degrading of the people involved, I've never once see you present a viable solution - perhaps you should enlighten us?

Making shit up now, I see.

You know, I'm not going to bother arguing point on point with you - you have your opinions and that's fine.

What is interesting is that you're full of vehemence for the industry and labels, yet will side with WB over Prince because of your own butthurt. Completely biased viewpoints that aren't worth the effort of dealing with. And to say that JJ is full of shit just shows your total arrogance.

And, lastly, how am I "making shit up" if I've never seen you produce a viable solution? You may have, but I haven't seen it. Of course, if you have a link......?

NikkiAndTheRevolution said:

RodeoSchro said:

No matter what the medium, or how convincing it may appear, you can be sure that Prince is not on the Internet. Not on Facebook, not on Twitter, not on MySpace, not on anything.

But there are some really good imitators out there!

I KNOW! That guy who was imitating Prince on Twitter makes it seem so believable! He must have a lot of time on his hands

Do you mean the Prince_Live Twitter? Because that is NOT believable as Prince AT ALL!

I like Prince_live

It's been right on some shit so you never know

If someone is going to be the imitation of an official source, then that person really needs to verify his/her information from a legitimate source.

Mindflux said:

What is interesting is that you're full of vehemence for the industry and labels,

The music industry gets it wrong plenty of times, yet it is most likely the least bad solution for plenty of cases. All I want is for them to do better, which means taking care of their back catalogue, realising that they're dealing in art not units, don't treat their customers as cattle or thieves,...

yet will side with WB over Prince because of your own butthurt.

The reality is that Prince signed a crappy deal AGAINST THE ADVICE OF HIS FRIENDS/STAFF. And then realised he signed an awful deal and wanted out of it. Are WB dicks because they tried to screw him? Sure. But he's an idiot for getting screwed and not listening to what people around him said. He wanted "the biggest record deal ever" and didn't bother to a) figure out what his peers were getting (REM were getting control of their masters, ditto Metallica), and b) what the contract meant for him. The simple fact that he had to sell 5 million copies of an album to get the advance for the next... that alone should have sent up warning flares in his head.

Completely biased viewpoints that aren't worth the effort of dealing with. And to say that JJ is full of shit just shows your total arrogance.

I've read countless interview with J&L from around the time of Pandemonium. Each time they tell a different story. So yeah, until he provides PROOF that Prince was a pioneer (and no, 1800NF was NOT pioneering since Amazon already existed at the time) I don't give a crap about what he says. Why should I take his word as gospel?

And, lastly, how am I "making shit up" if I've never seen you produce a viable solution? You may have, but I haven't seen it. Of course, if you have a link......?

Read this thread. Hint: they've screwed themselves for ten+ years, we're now way past finding a solution. At best there can be damage control, but then I see how they've just spent 91 million dollar in getting Congress to accept a censorship bill...

damn said:

I like Prince_live

It's been right on some shit so you never know

Oh for crying out loud. That account hasn't provided a single bit of news that didn't come from someone else first.

But hey, I guess your time isn't valuable so it's no big deal that you're spending it on following phoney ass Twitter accounts and even defending them.

BartVanHemelen said:

Mindflux said:

What is interesting is that you're full of vehemence for the industry and labels,

The music industry gets it wrong plenty of times, yet it is most likely the least bad solution for plenty of cases. All I want is for them to do better, which means taking care of their back catalogue, realising that they're dealing in art not units, don't treat their customers as cattle or thieves,...

I've read countless interview with J&L from around the time of Pandemonium. Each time they tell a different story. So yeah, until he provides PROOF that Prince was a pioneer (and no, 1800NF was NOT pioneering since Amazon already existed at the time) I don't give a crap about what he says. Why should I take his word as gospel?

And, lastly, how am I "making shit up" if I've never seen you produce a viable solution? You may have, but I haven't seen it. Of course, if you have a link......?

Read this thread. Hint: they've screwed themselves for ten+ years, we're now way past finding a solution. At best there can be damage control, but then I see how they've just spent 91 million dollar in getting Congress to accept a censorship bill...

But we live in a capitalist society, Bart! That means units and profit returns rule over everything! Until the rest of the system changes, nothing else will - surely you realise this?

In much the same way, you have to accept that people make mistakes, all the time! Some are small, some are big - have you NEVER made a mistake? But bleating on about mistakes Prince made 20-odd years ago is obsessive and slightly deranged, particularly as a) it has no direct effect on you whatsoever and b) you cannot alter history.

You don't have to accept JJ as gospel, but neither does anyone have to accept the Gospel according to Bart. You're stating opinion. So, is JJ. You are nowhere in the realms of success achieved either by Prince or JJ - if you and those 2 were sat in a room giving advice on the music industry, I know who I'd be listening to!

Its wonderfully convenient that you say we are way past a solution - in other words, you have no idea what to do about it. My idea (or, at least, the one I am pursuing, I wouldn't say I invented it of course!) is artist autonomy. I'm not after a record deal - I set up my own label and do everything myself - cut out the corporates with the potential to screw you for years and be entirely in control of my own business. Doubt it will make me millions, but that's not what I want (although I wouldn't say no!) and the old system wouldn't have given me that either.

It would be nice, just for a change, for you to be more constructive - all I ever see you do is complain (with the benfit of both hindsight and being outside the situations, it must be added) and berate the apparent mistakes of everyone else, without once giving a solution or even just showing some human empathy. That's almost psychotic. Just try being positive, just for once!

With the above said (and its the last of it for me) I really feel the need to express my apologies to NikkiandtheRevolution - I had no intention of "hijacking" this thread. Mine and Bart's conversation, such as it is, has gone way off topic and I'm sorry for that.

As Bart rightly said, Prince_Live's Twitter account only reveals information that was already available. What a sad state of affairs that someone would spend so much effort to get attention they don't deserve.

Interesting new twist to the Prince Twitter conversation..

Prince has a publishing deal with Universal. On the Universal Publishing website, if you click on the link to "Prince" in their Artists/Writers section and go to his page, they list @Prince_Music as being his official Twitter account.... an account that has only made one tweet.

the plot thickens!

See for yourself -http://www.umusicpub.com/...tid%3D1640

Militant said:

Interesting new twist to the Prince Twitter conversation..

Prince has a publishing deal with Universal. On the Universal Publishing website, if you click on the link to "Prince" in their Artists/Writers section and go to his page, they list @Prince_Music as being his official Twitter account.... an account that has only made one tweet.

the plot thickens!

See for yourself -http://www.umusicpub.com/...tid%3D1640

Yeah, I saw that too.

But still I doubt it. He didn't spell Michael's name right.

Militant said:

Interesting new twist to the Prince Twitter conversation..

Prince has a publishing deal with Universal. On the Universal Publishing website, if you click on the link to "Prince" in their Artists/Writers section and go to his page, they list @Prince_Music as being his official Twitter account.... an account that has only made one tweet.

the plot thickens!

See for yourself -http://www.umusicpub.com/...tid%3D1640

Wouldn't be surprised if some clueless intern had added that.

Mindflux said:

In much the same way, you have to accept that people make mistakes, all the time! Some are small, some are big - have you NEVER made a mistake? But bleating on about mistakes Prince made 20-odd years ago is obsessive and slightly deranged, particularly as a) it has no direct effect on you whatsoever and b) you cannot alter history.

Prince continues to make the same mistakes over and over again; I'm just pointing them out.

You don't have to accept JJ as gospel, but neither does anyone have to accept the Gospel according to Bart. You're stating opinion. So, is JJ.

No, opinions are based on FACTS. If Prince was a pioneer, then that's easy to prove by providing facts backing that up. Opinions are NOT equally worthy. If I say the sky is blue and you say the sky is green with purple dots, I'm right and you need to see a doctor.

You are nowhere in the realms of success achieved either by Prince or JJ - if you and those 2 were sat in a room giving advice on the music industry, I know who I'd be listening to!

What success? Prince has screwed over people in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY he claims WB has screwed him. He doesn't pay his bills, favors censorship,...

Its wonderfully convenient that you say we are way past a solution - in other words, you have no idea what to do about it.

No, there simply is no simple solution, or no one size fits all solution. But a big part of the problem is the music industry's own faults, and they continue screwing up themselves.

It would be nice, just for a change, for you to be more constructive - all I ever see you do is complain (with the benfit of both hindsight and being outside the situations, it must be added)

For years I have correctly predicted failures. Anyone who has actually read my posts instead of making shit up will have noticed that.

and berate the apparent mistakes of everyone else, without once giving a solution or even just showing some human empathy. That's almost psychotic. Just try being positive, just for once!

I'll be positive if there's reason to. Have done so plenty of times.

BartVanHemelen said:

Mindflux said:

In much the same way, you have to accept that people make mistakes, all the time! Some are small, some are big - have you NEVER made a mistake? But bleating on about mistakes Prince made 20-odd years ago is obsessive and slightly deranged, particularly as a) it has no direct effect on you whatsoever and b) you cannot alter history.

Prince continues to make the same mistakes over and over again; I'm just pointing them out.

For years I have correctly predicted failures. Anyone who has actually read my posts instead of making shit up will have noticed that.

and berate the apparent mistakes of everyone else, without once giving a solution or even just showing some human empathy. That's almost psychotic. Just try being positive, just for once!

I'll be positive if there's reason to. Have done so plenty of times.

Careful on that high pedastal you've put yourself on - you may hurt yourself when you fall.