GustavoRibas said:

As I was reading this it got me to wondering what really causes this difference in the way Prince is viewed as compared to others both before him (James Brown, Beatles, Rolling Stones, Hendrix, Sly...) and his contemporaries (Madonna, MJ, U2, Springsteen).

Those that came before him made their mark when the music world was a different place. Stuff happening in the 50's and especially the 60's was organic -- a "new" sound taking over the baby boomer generation. These artists became irrevocably tied to a philosophy and a huge shift in social norms. And they were, in some cases, pioneers. They defined the rock persona. Critics won't diss them too hard because that would almost be tantamount to blackening the eye of so many underlying concepts tied to the times.

Prince comes along in the 80's and his message/image fit right in to those excesses of the time. But now the focus is success, power, popularity and music has become more of a commodity to be marketed. Two things sell the story -- either immense success, power and glory or the spectacle of the fall from grace on a public stage. The media revels in pumping you up and then cutting you down.

Prince got cut down in the media. He handed them a sharpened blade AND he had his own agenda that really wasn't ever again going to coincide with the tastes of the masses. Sales were respectable, but not at the level of Purple Rain, so he could be considered a failure. On his way down. Old news. The masses didn't follow so they never saw/heard the things he did next. It wasn't shoved down their throats through every media outlet. What did get their attention, if anything, were tales of a narcistic (sp?!?) brat who changed his name to a squiggle, spoke in a whisper and wore funny clothes.

But to musicians and music lovers who bothered to listen he stands as one of the most talented, charismatic, original and dependably fantasic performers out there. There's a gap between the "knows" and the "know nots". If Prince continues to use showcases like RRHOF, SNL '06, etc. to help catch up the public to where he's at, there's a slim chance that the perception of the masses could shift and it becomes popular to say that he's cool again.

Besides, Prince came along after so much of the game had already been defined that it became about refinement and fusion of the past in unique ways that were wholly original. There’s still nothing out there quite like “Dorothy Parker” or “If I was Your Girlfriend”.

Of course he’d be much more accepted in the now if he’d just concentrate on appealing to one of these various musical snob groups (top 40 crowd, rock crowd, funk crowd, jazz crowd, experimental crowd, R&B/Soul crowd, indie crowd), but in the long haul he’ll be far better off being who he is rather than drastically limiting himself for the sake of short-term praise.

Prince definitely contributed to a lot of his own perception problems. It’s kind of a 50/50 deal. 50% of the problem is Prince’s and he might be able to correct that with continued quality television appearances and touring. The other 50% has to go on an audience that’s just too concerned with his sexuality, how he dresses, how he looks, and countless other superficial minutiae that has nothing to do with the quality of the music.

Brendan said:

- Yes, that´s what I say to my friends. "When doves cry" doesn´t sound like James, Hendrix, Santana or Sly. It´s very unique, with a very good melody.



- I wouldn´t like to see him locked in a group, but I only wish he would be less ´poppish´...sometimes it seems that he has such a need to be number 1 at Billboard, it´s annoying. Another thing I don´t like is his production sometimes, specially when he plays rock. My rocker friends like stuff like ´I like it there´ a lot, but songs like ´Cinnamon Girl´ are so watered down and sugary...if it was more ´raw´ more people would give it a chance.

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I think Prince has this amazing great timing which he just sort of feels the music. You hear a song like Adore and you feel it's spontaneity with the lyrics as well as the music. He has such a good ear for lyrics and for melody.

I dunno, guys. Being able to write a catchy tune that everyone can sing along to doesn't equal musical genius in my book. Beethoven is known for not ever really writing strong melodies, but his orchestration and innovation in harmony and dynmics makes him stand out.

I hate to think that the public at large defines a talented songwriter on his/her ability to write tunes they can reliably embarass themselves with on karaoke night at the local watering hole. But given the general idiocy of the public in musical matters, I'm afraid this is the yardstick used by most.

Everlasting Now is an incredible song, but nobody's going to sing it but Prince. Nothing Compares 2 U is a song anyone could sing. Prince lately has done more Everlasting Nows which isn't a complaint, but won't help his legacy as much as a timeless tune/lyric like Nothing Compares 2U.

My point is Prince's strength is that he's so well rounded, but that particular aspect of his artistry needs a bit of attention. He's written lots of classic tunes, but not so many in the last ten years, despite the brilliant arrangements.

andyman91 said:

- I couldn´t agree more. I cant think of Everlasting Now being sung by nobody else, and surely not Black Sweat also.
Maybe it´s time for strongest melodies and lyrics...

I agree that Prince hasn't recently been writing songs that are instantly memorable, totally universal and that can easily be sung by the drunken barfly on karaoke night.

But this is a very narrow definition of a timeless/classic song.

It's more like the definition of mass appeal. If that's all we're talking about here, then I'm in complete agreement.

But I don't see any difference in quality between "The Everlasting Now", "Family Name" and "I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man".

The latter I would certainly have predicted more mainstream play for, but all are incredible regardless of such trivial statistics.

"If I Was Your Girlfriend" to me is one of the greatest songs ever written, but it will never be a sing-along classic and it will never, ever appeal to a wide audience.

--

And I've been singing "Black Sweat" in my mind all day. Could I do that after only one or two listens? Hell no. But then I couldn't sing "Kiss" after just one or two listens either.

How long a song takes to blossom in the mind has nothing whatsoever to do with its intrinsic quality. And dance music that you can sing along to almost immediately is usually worn out after 10 listens and you want to kill yourself when it gets stuck in your head.

"Black Sweat" on the other hand is welcome to take up permanent residency.

Brendan said:

The point of the drunken barfly is that some songs are great even when they're butchered by terrible singers. More importantly, some songs appeal more universally to people than others. Everlasting Now could only be done by Prince,and even his version won't appeal to everybody.

Prince has straddled that fence for as while--Until U're in My Arms sounds very universal. Annie Christian is not. But I think that Prince's pop songs used to be better. His arrangements have gotten better for all of his music, but his pop songs have lost a bit of poetry & beautiful simple perfection.

You're absolutely right, Prince hasn't written for quite sometime something as brilliantly infectious and simplistic as "Little Red Corvette" or "Raspberry Beret"; songs that also happen to stand up quite nicely to repeated listens.

But it is just these type of songs that lose him credibility with the type of music snobs that reject pop songs and anything that's easy.

And it's stuff like "If I was Your Girlfriend", "Family Name" and "Fury" that lose with those music snobs that never step outside easily accessible music.

Greatness is greatness and the more narrow someone's tastes are, the less of it they will find.

I dont think all of this you all are talking is the music´s fault. It´s just that people tend to like a song if it relates to something they already like. You can put a radical headbanger to listen to sometimes it snows in april and he wont like the song, because these guys are looking to double kick, power chords and swept arpeggios. So the fact is that altought Prince´s music got lots of obvious influences like james bown, and sly stone, his musical personality is too big, Prince is absolutely very far from conventional, even when he does POPPY songs, so most of people i know percieve his music as strange, and being strange they are being not easy to listen too, because most people are jsut full of musical preconception to listen to Prince, and the fact that this albums are very diverse only agravates this fact, and very feel people can have an open mind to, if not love it all, at least give it a chance. There is no ridiculous keyboard lines on cinammon girl as lots of rock fans think, ridiculous is the mind of people who dont listen to a song because it aint got the typical arrangments that the style require.

I think The Rainbow Children is in the TOP 3 of best Prince albums ever. And besides when doves cry, and darling nikki, The gold experience is stronger than Purple Rain. I even prefer Furry than Let´s Go crazy and bambi. And I really think people overrate the 80´s very much. So i dont see anything wrong with Princes melodies nowadays, the only thign wrong with the ear of the people. You can call me asskisser, but i am telling what i feel. By the way, Play in the sunshine, It, DMSR, and lots of 80´s Prince songs, are mediocre IMO.

Sorry if this is sounding confusing or agressive, i woke up a while ago. And i am kinda lazy now

here is no ridiculous keyboard lines on cinammon girl as lots of rock fans think, ridiculous is the mind of people who dont listen to a song because it aint got the typical arrangments that the style require.

I even prefer Furry than Let´s Go crazy and bambi. And I really think people overrate the 80´s very much. So i dont see anything wrong with Princes melodies nowadays, the only thign wrong with the ear of the people. You can call me asskisser, but i am telling what i feel. By the way, Play in the sunshine, It, DMSR, and lots of 80´s Prince songs, are mediocre IMO.

Hi folks

Most of us here are Prince fans, and we own most Prince albums, including bootlegs, outtakes, etc. So, we know what Prince is capable of. We know how great he is as a musician, songwriter, producer, multi-instrumentalist, etc.

But, at least here in my town, many people don´t even see him as a genius, legend, whatever. It´s pop star only for them. They talk about the genius of Paul Mc Cartney, Hendrix, Wonder, etc, but when I mention Prince, they open a smile like "hehe, Prince, the pop star? How can you put him in the same sentence of (fill the name of a great 60s/70s artist)". And Prince is guilty of it also. He invested so much in his own persona in the past that it made people not take him seriously as a musician/songwriter. Many people (non fans) still think it´s strange when Prince appears on the cover of Bass Player or Guitar World. It´s ironic because some of their heroes are Prince fans (Steve Vai, Marcus Miller, Wonder, Miles Davis, etc).




When I think of his great recent performances (ONA tour, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, SNL 2006, NACCP) I am happy because he is less entertainer and more musician. He is showing the world, not only his fans, that he is great.

I think it´s time for Prince to get rid of the ´pop star shit´ and concentrate more on doing great music, more than ever before. Work on strong compositions, without too many gimmicks or overprodution. It seems that he will do an MTV Unplugged in a near future. If he does great arrangements, no dancing, no medleys, it will be a perfect opportunity to show the world how great his songs (yes, the hits this time would be cool) are.

I started this thread because I am really tired of seeing him taken for granted while other 60s/70s cats are heavily praised. What about you?

One of the joys of being a Prince fan is that u just can't predict what he's gonna do. for example, if U2 is gonna perform on SNL, everyone pretty much knows what its gonna be- a U2 rock song. But Prince, u just never know. Most of us thought he was gonna funk it up with Black Sweat, but were we in for a surprise! Who other than Prince can release a dance track, then rock out on national TV in the same week?

btw, I'm surprised that Prince has such poor reception in your hometown (Rio De Janeiro?). I have quite a few brazilian friends here in Canada and they all seem to have a very diverse musical taste... and one of them is a Prince Fan (he's from Sao Luis).

oh, and have a nice carnaval!

the majority of his love comes from other musicians it seems. and realistically that is the truest determinant

Usually sing along songs SUCKS big time.