Let's be honest: We all know Prince is a great shredder, but is he a great guitar player? He has never really brought any innovation to the instrument like Eddie Van Halen or Frank Zappa. True, Kurt Cobain only knew 3 chords, but he used them in interesting ways. Prince borrows way too much from Santana, and doesn't seem to have his own voice. Habibi even rips off Hendrix. If he would have his own guitar sound, then he might make it. He would be high on my list, but I am biased. And also, his best guitar playing is on bootlegs, and RS cannot use bootlegs for criteria.

Prince is dead, but new power soul will

Now I have to disagree with your argument 2 freaky in that it only covers Prince as an innovator in one style of guitar playing and that is rock. Prince is a monster innovator on all the instruments he plays especially guitar, because he can cover Rock, Funk, Jazz, Blues etc. That in and of itself should have gotten him in the top ten. If these people really knew anything about the instrument the #1 innovator would have been Wes Montgomery the jazz player not Jimi Hendrix. Jimi would be a close second but he was no Wes. I think Cobain is only on there cause he is dead. I just don't get how his chords are more interseting than Princes'. I mean Prince used country chords on Alphabet St and made them terribly funky. C'mon that argument does not fly any more than that list. There is more to the instrument than making weird noises. I mean you are right say in his rock solo's he borrows from Santana and I give you credit for being able to hear that, but who does he borrow from when he does a Jazz lick? what about blues? and what about funk? See if you really want a lesson in racisim (just follow me I have a point) pay attention to the next black guy who plays even the slightest hint of rock guitar. I promise you the first word out of every white writers mouth is Jimi Hendrix. Hell they said that shit about Vernon Ried with Living Colour. Now you know his raggedy ass solos don't sound like no Jimi, but hey he's black therefore who the hell else can we compare him to. I say all that to say that there is a voluntary ignorance when it comes to innovation on the instrument that does not fit the rock and therefore mostly white concept of the electric guitar. Prince has always been a monster funk player which is way harder to pull off than speed metal but people don't know that. I think what we have here is an out and out dis of Prince because he has left the mainstream so they try to act as though he does not exist. By dissing his guitar playing (and believe me that is what they were doing) they are dissing his music and musicianship. I think it is up to us to make Rolling Stone accountable. I believe Prince should at least be in the top 15. Rolling Stone is over and this list proves it. I appreciate your arguments however.

Ok, Let's make a case for Prince. Who cares about the list? Well ok, I was a little po'ed at first but now I am so over it. What recordings put Prince on a top 100 list?

I'm Yours?
Why You Wanna Treat Me So Bad?
Automatic?
The Scandalous Sex Suite?
Hello (extended version)?
The Ride?
Cybersingle?

I'm throwing stuff out and could all night. Whatcha think?

X

GustavoRibas said:

two words: whammy bar...

its RS.
who cares!


flyingcloud: re your comment about 'he shoulda done a rock/guitar alum in the 90s...
Gold is pretty wild.

listen 2 the solos on there.
even the rhythm on Shy.so damn funky!

the guitar on the song 'Gold' almost gives me tears.

chiltonmusic said:

- Sorry, I have to disagree...Prince´s bass playing is heavily borrowed from Larry and I don´t see nothing original on his approach to drums and piano, altough he plays them really well. There is a difference between being great and being innovative. Wes, Jimi and Van Halen were innovative. They created a brand new way of playing the instrument. Prince did great guitar work, but nothing truly fresh.



- I agree with you. I think Cobain was a true innovator in the songwriting field. He brought something new. I would only accept the argument that he was a guitar innovator because he influenced a whole generation not to be guitar hero. But IMO, it doesnt make him a great guitar player.


- yeah, but it didnt happen everytime. Prince didn´t have an unique ´voice´ on the instrument all the time. Most of the time, he borrowed from Jimi and Santana. Even now... ´Eeverlasting Now´ solo is pure Santana, while ´Last December´ is Jimi. Very good solos, but not unique, like Allan Holdsworth or Eric Johnson (sometimes I get tired of him, but I can recognize him playing by far)

.
- Agree 100%. Tom Morello spoke about it in a Guitar World interview.
"Those bands, as well as Living Colour, are owed a huge debt by bands today that try to deal with cross-genre music. Living Colour was a band that was finally
able to bury the ghost of Jimi Hendrix, who, great as he may have been, has haunted every brown-skinned guitar player who has come along since he died.
Living Colour made it acceptable for African-Americans to play in rock bands without people shouting for “Foxy Lady.”


- Well, I think every style of music is hard to master. It´s equally hard to play like Steve Vai, Stevie Ray Vaughan or George Benson. They are specialists in their areas and spent years studying hard and developinf their style. I remember an interview where Zappa´s bass player said that he jammed with the jazz monster drummer Tony Williams in a rock project and it was embarassing. Everyone in the band said he messed up. Terry Bozzio would fit in much better. The opposite would happen too if you put Eddie Van Halen inside a jazz jam.
About the ´mainstream´ thing...I have my doubts. Of course he gets pretty forgotten now, but I believe the reason that he never got his full props as a guitar player is because:
1) some of his best work is on outtakes and bootlegs
2) He doesn´t play the guitar 100% of the time
3) He was never a real innovator on it.

Gustavo Ribas

Man, so many musical experts in the field of Rock history, songwriting, guitar innovations!

Time to start your own magazine!

GustavoRibas said:

I'm not disputing his influence. If the List was "100 Most Influential Guitarists of All Time", I would definitely make him number 1. He had a profound effect on the guitar in music. But he is not the best. I can't get over how many people pump up his skills. For the record, I love Hendrix, and own several of his albums, but although the sound he creates is fantastic, he was not THAT great.

I just can't understand WHAT some people listen to that make them think there is nobody more skilled than Hendrix. It boggles the mind.

GustavoRibas said:

I would agree with this, except the list says "greatest" guitarists, not influential guitarists. For the record, I still don't care about Prince not being on the list, but I do care about Cobain out-ranking Zappa. I know that Cobain was the inspiration for the last 12 years of poorly constructed repetitive sounding crap-rock, but it was not difficult. Change the list to influential, and he would get my vote, just as Hitler would get my vote in a Top 100 Most Influential Politicians list.

As a side note, I would say Prince was VERY influential in two fields, and that would be Synths and Drum Machines. I don't know if he should be proud of that or not, because it sure did spawn some crappy music.




I don't even think he did this. I thought he just made well-known what several Seattle bands were doing at the time.

- Sorry, I have to disagree...Prince´s bass playing is heavily borrowed from Larry and I don´t see nothing original on his approach to drums and piano, altough he plays them really well. There is a difference between being great and being innovative. Wes, Jimi and Van Halen were innovative. They created a brand new way of playing the instrument. Prince did great guitar work, but nothing truly fresh.
See I am not referring to his bass playing I am referring to his work as a funk guitarist and he has been both innovative and influential in this regard. His rock work is very underated and his bass playing of late is very Larry Graham like. His early work on bass is pretty innovative, but we are not talking about bass we are talking about guitar. As I think about it Larry Graham and Entwistle influenced everyone who played back in their day so that is still no excuse to leave him off the list. I mean let's get real if it were innovation alone why the hell is Kurt Cobain on there? He was not innovative at all. That is not to say he wasn't a great songwriter but guitar innovator hell no! We still haven't looked at his jazz work or his funk which in and of itself should have gotten him on this list. I do agree that most of his best moments are live not on a record but still he should be on that list.

savoirfaire said:

- Agree 100%...as I said in my first post...I didnt understand what was their criteria to choose these guys. It was not by fame, because there are some very unknown name. It wasnt for innovation, because some innovators were out-ranked by non-innovators. It wasn´t because of skill, because some slow handed guitarrists out ranked some virtuosos...I never trust polls.
But the good thing about this thread is because people brought some very nice comments

chiltonmusic said:

- Well, you said it:
"Prince is a monster innovator on all the instruments he plays especially guitar, because he can cover Rock, Funk, Jazz, Blues etc. "
That´s why I brought the bass, drums and piano to the discussion. And I agree...Prince´s early work on bass was much more innovative than today

This is my first pst for todat, 8/31/03.

You know, after VH1's obsessions with lists, I pretty much gave up on those things. They're never accurate and they can never please everyone. Sure, I wish Prince was on that list. He's a great guitarist. But I also wish for many more to join that list. Where the hell is Andy Gill? Huh? What about Johnny Marr? or Roger McGuinn? or Joe Strummer? What about Charlie F***ing Christian? Huh? He invented the goddamn lead guitar, didja know that? Where's Django??? DJANGO!!!

Hey. At least Eddie Hazel of P-Funk Got in there. He should also have been on the top 10.

Mike Hampton is quality player too.

Well Gustavo I have to admit I enjoy debating this with you. I like your points alot by the way and it is good to discuss without all the negative comments that happen alot on this site. I also dig the fact that you are hip to Wes Montgomery many people aren't and they should be cause he was a remarkable. I agree as a drummer he ain't no innovator but I can give him that. I like the fact that you brought the bass into it as well. I think that and this is a different topic all together but at what point does innovation end and just being damn good begins? I mean they say what killed punk rock was everybody learned how to play their instruments. Maybe as far as Prince innovating on any particular instrument (and I am not saying I completely agree mind you) is because as you get older and learn more you want to perfect your approach and style not so much create a new one. Now I am of course speculating so there is no evidence one way or the other just a thought

chiltonmusic said:

- Yes, it´s all a mystery...some people develop an unique style more easier than others. And some get repetitive with the years. It´s funny that Prince´s guitar playing is getting more conservative today compared to the 80s, but on the other hand it kicks ass. His solos on the first 3 tracks of ONA aftershow (disc 3) are some of his best guitar ever. I enjoy discussing music with people who bring good ideas. And you surely is one of them.
Wes Montgomery was brilliant. Somebody brought Django...he was amazing too. You see, lots of great people were left out of the list. For example...if ´slow but stylish´ guitar players like Frusciante and The Edge are on the list, why not Johnny Marr?
This list is very far from being perfect...

This must be a popularity contest...

They only got no.1 right, the rest is a mess.
For me the most notable absentees are Nuno Bettencourt from Extreme and Prince.

As for questioning Prince's innovative guitar work...Have you not heard SOTT. His subtle guitar work in the background on a lot of the tracks just bring'em to life.

That album kicks some serious butt and there's nothing like it...

...Prince's greatest guitar moments are done live though.

I admit I was very happy to see some very positive comments about Frank Zappa here. Being a Prince and Zappa fan, I was very happy. Frank had an unique style and sound, and was a great musician/arranger/composer. His guitar work will be always inspiring me.
For people who doesn´t know his great work yet, I recommend
1) ´Watermelon in easter hay´ from Joe´s Garage album
2) ´Black Napkins´ and ´Zoot Allures´ from Zoot Allures album
Or just org note me, and I will send them to you.

Okay .. there we go again ...

PRINCE IS NO GUITAR-HERO

he's just a performer ... the best there is

http://www.prince.org/msg...msg_996694

This is a good discussion. I can honestly say that I see the merits of both sides of the arguments going on.

But, the point that I want to make is that I keep hearing that Prince is not unique on guitar and has "no voice". While I can see why some people have come to that conclusion, on the whole, I have to disagree with that assesment... and here's why.

True, Prince's guitar playing often represents a collection of sounds and influences from many different established guitar players. But at the same time, when I hear Prince playing guitar, I don't know about the rest of you all, but I immediately know whether or not it is Prince, especially if it is a solo. And if he had "no voice", I don't think I would be able to do that.

I think of Prince's style and voice on guitar almost as sort of a "potpourri" of sound. While potpourri contains a mixture of a lot of different fragrances, somehow, you still know it is uniquely potpourri when you smell it. Prince's guitar playing is the same way in my opinion. Somehow, even though Prince borrows different styles from different people, it is still uniquely Prince, and that in and of itself is genius.

What some people are doing when listening to Prince play is they are picking out the "vanilla" and the "cinnamon" in Prince's style and then saying "ah ha! I smell "vanilla" therefore he's not orignal!"

I say nonsense! People remember what they know and are familiar with already. That's why it is easy to pick out Santanna or Hendrix in his playing for example. But they forget about the small but important steps of true creativity that makes Prince's style unlike any other. The difference between Prince and many others is that he has not made a career out of repeating those small bits of creativity over and over again like many of the other guitarist who have become famous for repeating themselves over the years. Instead, Prince creates and then moves on. That is and has always been his method of operation. And over time, those small but important steps of creativity can become easily over looked like many are doing here.

I may not be as well versed in the guitar legends of the world as some of you all are. But can someone tell me what guitar player does Prince remind them of when they hear some of the solos on "N.E.W.S" or "Joy in Repetition" the solo in "Gett Off" or the other "Gett OFF" or the solo in "The War"? Maybe some of you all can pick out the comparison between other guitar players on those songs better than I can. But as for me, no one else immediately comes to mind.

When Prince is in concert, he has a tendancy to play a lot of long whole notes and then bends the sound all the while providing a very intense, emotional and colorful sound. Can someone think of another guitar player that does that? I can't.

I think Prince's brilliance is in being able to mold together the sounds of all his influences yet still be able to be creative and innovative enough to remain uniquely Prince. So therefore, if there is a list to be made, Prince should definitely be on it.

The only list that Rolling Stone ( MTV as well ) can give

is how to turn a buck. In the pursuit of the dollar bill

both have seem to lost what has made them special. I

haven't seen anything from either in a years that has peaked

my intrest.


KEEP MY DOLLARS F**KING HOPE THEY HAVE A SON.Huh?

Here we go again! Jack White of the White Stripes is on the list. He is no innovator. Raggedy blues guitar turned to 11. But The White Stripes are NOW so he's on the list. Jimi Hendrix is #1 (again) because nobody has the imagination to think of anyone else. Again - raggedy blues guitar but this time with mind altering drug influences and the pioneering use of effects. And all this stuff about Joy in Repetition on One Nite Alone... sure it's great guitar playing but listen to Peach on the same disc... Now THAT is what Prince does. THAT is why he should be on the list AND in the top 10. When people think of guitar playing (and this seems to go for the majority here) they think of loud guitars and distortion... Rock music. Prince CAN rock but he isn't a Rock musician. He's too subtle for that!

Hilarious... Kurt Cobain of Nirvana at 12, whilst Dave Gilmour of Pink Floyd is down at 82? I think not.

This list is nonsense.

While we all know what an amazing guitar player Prince can be, I think the real reason he's not on this list is because he's too well know for other things. The artists that made the list are (predominantly) guitars players and nothing more, or they are most recognized for their guitar playing. People think of Prince as a musical virtuoso, a pop icon, a musical innovator, a master funkateer. If they made a list of Greatest Piano players, Eddie Van Halen likely wouldn't make the list even though he's proven himself amazing on the keys. That's because people think of him as a guitar player. Prince is simply too talented on too many different instruments for people to think of him as exceptional on any one in particular. He's too talented overall to grab recognition for any individual instrument.
But regardless of Rolling Stone's ridiculous choices, I love this list and lists like it. Because these lists always lead to interesting conversations like this one. What were the odds otherwise that Django Reinhardt would be mentioned on the Org this month?

Having just watched the DVD Live in Las Vegas, all you have to do is watch a few trax to show how goood he is on guitar, & should definately be on this list:

Push & Pull
1+1+1=3
Whole Lotta Love
Family Name
The Ride.

I think he's the best guitarist around at the moment because he makes it look easy, from whatever style he plays, the blues of The Ride, the rock of Whole Lotta Love, the funk of 1+1+1=3. How many guitarists can do that, so effortlessly??

Rolling Stone was at one time a great rock and roll magazine. It is now being run by corporate america and written by young know-nothings who were raised on a steady diet of MTV, Britney, N Sync, and second rate rappers. That's why you get people like the Olson twins (last issue) and that dude from that dopey Star Search of the 21st century show (the issue before) on the cover. The writers of R.S. aren't around long enough to know the real deal and the ones who are old enough have lost touch with the real music scene.
Prince is an amazing ... absolutley stunning guitarist. that he is not recocnized by R.S. is a crime and an insult to his contribution to modern music.
Look at the people on this list!!! Joan Jett!?!? what the fuck is that. i could play her whole catalog note for note when i was 12 years old. Lou Read? Joni Mitchel? John Fogarty? is this a great songwriters list or a greatest guitarist list??? Leave it to RS to fuck up an issue that finally has a real musician (hendrix) on the cover.

I never understood why Prince fans take it so personally when Prince isn't hailed by the rest of the world with awards and high ratings on silly polls...

How many ppl do you know in the world? How many of them make fun of you because you like Prince? That should say something... I mean, we're fortunate enough to have a certain "spark" in us that makes us like him and his talents while others just see him as an irritating SILLY pop star from the 80s. Which he is actually.

Prince put WAY too much emphasis on his image than his musicianship which made most folks look at him like a goof. I mean, his haircut always seemed to be more important than his musical output for some reason.

Prince is more an icon than a musician to the rest of the world. Enjoy what WE have and be glad that he's NOT on any "best of" list. I mean, with his ego, I'm sure he'd be doing things COMPLETELY differently if he were "accepted".

If you haven't noticed, Prince's last 10 years has THRIVED off of that unacceptance.

T

Being a great guitarist isn't solely about technical proficiency-- somewhat sloppy playing is how new things are developed. It's being able to create something new to enhance a song that makes a guitarist great. For that reason you see Hendrix on top (sure he's also the easy choice). He's like the Babe Ruth of guitar. Some folks revere Ted Williams or Barry Bonds and a good case can be made for them, but their not the Babe. The greatest ones capture your imagination and Wes Montgomery, as good as he was, did't create the buzz Hendrix did.
Prince should definitely be on this list based on his versatility. When he came along there was really no innovation to be had on the guitar. Every possible note has been squeezed out of it and frankly the preoccupation some have with it is not a good thing. Since Prince has dropped out of the public's consciousness it could be an honest ommission-- a lot of people don't even think of him as a guitarist. However, it's more likely an intentional snub. Oh well. He'll live.
My question is: Where's Ani Difranco on this list?

whodknee said:

- Hmm...I disagree...Tom Morello started Rage Against the Machine in 1992 and his approach to the guitar is truly unique. Steve Vai (like him or not) developed an unique sound too, based on Van Halen and Zappa. I am not a big fan of Frusciante (Red Hot Chilli Peppers) but he was unique too. There are other people too, but right now I dont remember the names.

TheMEssage said:

- True...although Prince is a kick ass musician, respected by most of the artists out there, most regular people see him as a ´pop singer who happens to play the guitar´. That´s why lots of people find it very strange to see him on the cover of Guitar Player, for example. Right now, he looks much ´cleaner´, more like the ´serious´ musician. If he started acting like this in the past, his image would have been completely different.