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- Thank you so very much for this story. It kinda breaks my heart to be honest. Why didn't he took more care of her for the rest of his life... I mean love-wise. Why so much cheating and being so sweet at the same time ? What a complex mofo he was... - I love these stories so much. Even more then studio storiesc They tell a lot more about the music and the (sometimes cheesy/sheeky love-) lyrics. They tell a lot about the things we missed (back then). He always sayd ; "it's all about the music"... but the music's much more layered with all this info. -
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russell 1872-1972) |
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- I would also like to hear more from Eric Leeds. He spend so much time in the studio recording sax and bras. Wonderful arrangements. Still till this day I thik he is underestimated as a hornplayer/arranger. - I'm sure Eric has a lot of more down to earth stories about Prince and the camp. Alan too i guess. - And we barely ever hear antything from Mico, Atlanta Bliss... even Sheila to be honest; -
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russell 1872-1972) |
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Vannormal said:
- I would also like to hear more from Eric Leeds. He spend so much time in the studio recording sax and bras. Wonderful arrangements. Still till this day I thik he is underestimated as a hornplayer/arranger. - I'm sure Eric has a lot of more down to earth stories about Prince and the camp. Alan too i guess. - And we barely ever hear antything from Mico, Atlanta Bliss... even Sheila to be honest; -
Eric did a great long interview with Prince Podcast, but I'm sure he has some good personal stories too. Alan could probably write multiple books on his experiences from the business/management side. Mico's experience would be interesting, because it seems he and Prince butted heads quite a bit. Sheila's book came out before Prince's death, so I'm sure she has more personal stories too. | |
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Just saw this post....you're welcome!! * Yes, his inability to be faithful and/or trust a woman enough to sustain a relationship is very sad. He was a very complex man to say the least, and it seems, very challenging to deal with in serious relationships. * He put all of his thoughts and feelings into his music though, so we have that as a way to understand his deeper feelings a bit more. | |
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I agree. He said that if you want to know him to listen to the music. He was opening up more it seemed during the P&M shows about the difficulties of maintaining relationships. | |
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Yes, his reflections during those shows are so touching, but sad too, because he opened up more just before he passed. | |
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Yes,I agree, though it was refreshing to hear him be so open and to express his feelings so freely with the audience. He revealed quite a bit during those shows. He was seemingly becoming more open about his personal life with the release of his memoir planned. I'm hoping they still somehow release the 50 pages he was said to have completed. | |
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pinkcashmere23 said:
Yes,I agree, though it was refreshing to hear him be so open and to express his feelings so freely with the audience. He revealed quite a bit during those shows. He was seemingly becoming more open about his personal life with the release of his memoir planned. I'm hoping they still somehow release the 50 pages he was said to have completed. Yes, I hope the publishing company releases his pages. Really wondering how "matter of fact" he was about his life, or if he wrote about it in a more cryptic or poetic style. Thinking he didn't get far with only 50 pages completed, but anything from his persoective would be good to read. * I do think there is truth to what Tyja has stated after he passed - that he knew he didn't have much more time here. It would definitely explain his mindset during the P&M tour, and his re-connecting with many old friends and associates. | |
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Yes,it does make you wonder if he was aware that his time was short. I wonder the same regarding his writing style and how real he was planning to be. The last interview with Ebony seemed to indicate that he was letting his guard down and he was very sraight forward with Miles Marshall Lewis. Of course,he did have Ebony remove the interview almost as soon as it was posted and it was said that he had spoken off record and didn't intend for that portion of the interview to be published. | |
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pinkcashmere23 said:
Yes,it does make you wonder if he was aware that his time was short. I wonder the same regarding his writing style and how real he was planning to be. The last interview with Ebony seemed to indicate that he was letting his guard down and he was very sraight forward with Miles Marshall Lewis. Of course,he did have Ebony remove the interview almost as soon as it was posted and it was said that he had spoken off record and didn't intend for that portion of the interview to be published. Yes, the guy was secretly recording a lot of the conversation. Really bad form. It also seems that his comments were coming from a place of retaliation too. Alan Light's book about the making of PR had recently been released, and many from the band and camp had contributed to that book. I'm sure he was not happy about it. He was all over the place in that discussion. I think it's very telling that he pulled that piece just minutes after it was published. | |
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Yes,when it was posted on the Ebony site,it was first believed that it was with Prince's consent and when it was pulled a little while after,people thought he had changed his mind. True,he came across rather angry in the interview and it wasn't exactly flattering. | |
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pinkcashmere23 said:
Yes,when it was posted on the Ebony site,it was first believed that it was with Prince's consent and when it was pulled a little while after,people thought he had changed his mind. True,he came across rather angry in the interview and it wasn't exactly flattering. Yes, he was lashing out at many from the old camp - Susan Rogers, Matt Fink, Susannah, and others. He criticized the skills of No Doubt, and made sone confusing religious analogies. It almost seemed as though he was not mentally "all there" - maybe sleep deprivation or something else, but much of his conversation was scattered. | |
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Yes,he sounded a bit erratic and all over the place. I can see why he wanted it pulled, though I did like the portions when he discussed the songs on Phase 2 and thought it was nice that he drove Miles around and played him the album. What he said about the ending of 'Revelation' being about Moses was interesting I thought. | |
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- I read the interciew... Say it like it is, I think the guy was on drugs (imho - and from what we know more about now). No coherence in that interview, lot of un necessary bible spice too. And a lot of namedropping with out of tune lashing. -
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts" (Bertrand Russell 1872-1972) |
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At the time that didn't occur to me but in hindsight,it's quite possible his judgement was compromised. There were some interesting parts of the chat and as I said above,I found his explanation about the last line of 'Revelation' to be interesting because of the signifigance of the line 'the color of the Pharoah's hand' I had wondered what he had meant by that line and I understood when he said it was about Moses. He did seem to be on a rant through much of the interview and it was out of character for him. | |
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Since you guys bought up The Ebony Interview saying Prince "wasn't mentally all there", may I respectfully disagree with some of your statements?
@VioletCrush; First of all, Allan Lights's book was not the first book that The Revolutions contributed to that Prince knew about. Their comments in the disingenuous Liz Jones's book "Purple Reign" was not a flattering contribution either. That book was published in 1998. Many years prior. Prince certainly knew about it... So, to say he was lashing out at his associates due to their contributions in Allan Lights's book needs a bit more solidity. I'm quite sure that your main disagreement with the interview stems from Prince saying that The Beautiful Ones was not about his relationship with Susannah - but if anything, Susannah seemed very reluctant to say that she was the inspiration behind The Beautiful Ones in Allan's book as well. In actuality, she said the same thing Prince was trying to convey regarding the lyrics he highlighted that he intoned was written specifically for the scene with Morris and Appolonia. “I can’t say that the song was exactly our story, but he wrote it during that time,” says Susannah. “He wasn’t always specifically writing about what he was going through, because he also had to be consistent with the Purple Rain story line, but he was drawing from things that had happened in his life. So with that comment, Susannah was pointing out two of the same exact sentiments that Prince also pointed out regarding the song. "If they look at it, it’s very obvious. “Do you want him or do you want me,” that was written for that scene in Purple Rain specifically. Where Morris [Day] would be sitting with [Apollonia], and there’d be this back and forth." Susannah also said that she couldn't say the song was exactly their story and he was drawing from things that happened in his life... but let's not forget the other lyrics that he pointed out that was in connection to Vanity's departure which was a big part of his story during that time. Prince told us how obvious the lyrics were and he was right. "The Beautiful One, you always seem to lose... Vanity had just quit the movie." It's just as Susannah said, he was writing songs to fit with the script and also drawing from things that had happened in his life and that's why he explained in that interview that Vanity had recently left. Those same formulated thoughts that Susannah mentioned is what Prince specified. He didn't seem crazy at all, just very honest for a brief short moment until his conscience triggered the removal of the interview. The group "No Doubt", and many of the other associates that he gave an opinion about were friends of his. There were no reasons that warranted his lashing out at them. He was just telling it like he saw it. Just because he said a song wasn't about Susannah doesn't mean "he wasn't all there..." Prince has always been ridiculed for his cryptic and challenging intonations. Furthermore, your comments are a bit contradicting. It's said, along with yourself, that Prince was trying to make amends and reaching out to all the associates from his past during that time, Susannah included. Wendy stated that he reached out to them and also wanted to friendly reach out to Susannah six months before he passed. That was very close to the time period of the Ebony Interview. You've said you think there is truth in it that Prince knew he was dying all along... But that would include the time of that Ebony interview as well, yet he was still trying to set the record straight about the song, among other things during that period. That would also mean that he still knew he was dying in Feburary 2016 at The Piano and Microphone shows where he bought up Vanity's connection to the song once again, implying that she knew the song was about her - still trying to set that record straight... Bottom line is, Prince has always spoken cryptically, and though his delivery came off very harsh and he decided to remove the interview, Prince's thoughts seemed to be very genuine and in line with his true feelings in regards to certain aspects. Prince was always a quiet thunder that could strike at any time. [Edited 1/24/19 6:04am] | |
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Your last sentence was nicely worded and I agree. When I read the interview when it was first posted on Ebony,I found it a bit surprising that he was so straight forward with some of the things he said about some of the people in his life past and present. He said that Phase 2 would probably be the last album with Shelby and I recall that people were wondering if they had a falling out but he likely meant that she wouldn't be singing with him any longer to concentrate on her own music. What he said regarding TBO's and Susan Rogers was said without using any names but of course one could figure out who he was talking about if they knew the back story behind the comments. When I first read the interview,I did think he sounded a bit out of character and I didn't really know what to think because I wasn't used to him being so open and straight forward in interviews. It never crossed my mind then that his mind may have been altered by drugs but knowing what we do now,I did take that into consideration. I thought at the time he was just being real and expressing what was on his mind and as you said,had a change of heart once it was published. | |
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Luvgirl: * Regarding Prince's comments and Alan Light's book: my statements regarding his interview were not only focused on Prince's comments about the song TBO. He also made reference to Matt Fink's story of watching a Bob Seger concert with him, Prince wondering why Seger was so popular, and Matt discussing the importance of having a relatable and popular ballad song just prior to Prince starting to put together the song Purple Rain. Prince was also making reference to Susan Rogers and the threat of her planning to break in and steal music from the Vault. * Regarding the song TBO: I have always maintained that the song had multiple inspirations, and obviously, Vanity was a big part of the song. She had just left the camp that July, and the film was de-railed at that point. She left in July - just before rehearsals and filming were to start. Management had to run around like maniacs trying to re-cast the part - this is all discussed by some of the team on the PR 25th DVD issue. I have no doubt that Prince was majorly affected by that situation, as he stated during the Ebony interview. The lyric, "the beautiful ones always smash the picture" is both literal and figurative based on what was really happening - Vanity left the film. However, the lyrics referring to a girl being so hard to find, making him so confused, and him begging her to choose him over another guy would not apply to Vanity at that time - and yes, I know that they "fit" into the scene in the film, but they could also easily have paralleled his life experience at that time. The Director for the film has stated that much of the script and songs were representing what was actually happening in his life. What I thought Susannah stated in the book was, "well, that was sort of our story, but he was also writing for the script..". I will have to look it up again. Susannah did not discuss the detail of her being involved with another guy when she met Prince in her interviews, but she may cover it if she does end up writing her story. * The Ebony interview: I think the general consensus is that Prince was quite scattered with his words and thoughts when talking to that reporter. I don't think the group No Doubt were his "friends" as you stated. He asked them to do a song on the Rave album, and they spent some time at PP to record the song with him. They weren't continuing to hang out with him on a regular basis as friends. Same with Sheryl Crow and the other artists who did collaborations with him for that album. He was trying to do what Santana had done the prior year with bringing in younger artists who were having chart success at that time. Santana's record was a huge seller. I think the fact that Prince had the Ebony article pulled just minutes after it was published is very telling. I don't believe he had ever done that prior in his career. * Liz Jones's book: I have not read her book, so I don't know how or what Wendy, Lisa, and/or Susannah contributed to it. I do know that they had contributed some to Matt Thorne's book - or at least Susannah did, because he has a chapter discussing songs for her. I believe Thorne's book came out around the same time as Alan Light's book. Regardless of what they had stated in Liz Jone's book, Prince was definitely making reference to things written in Alan's book during the Ebony interview. Jones's book was almost 10 yrs old, so I doubt he would have been referencing details from her book. * I think Prince's words about Vanity at the Melbourne P&M show were very touching. He had just found out about her death prior to going on stage, and it was his way of eulogizing her. Again, there is no doubt that she inspired a big part of TBO. I just don't think she was the only personal inspiration for the lyrics. Take the song When Doves Cry - it is has been written everywhere that the song was inspired by Prince's relationship with Susan Moonsie. However, Albert Magnoli stated that he called Prince and told him he needed a song for the scene in the film where he's riding around on his motorcyle - he needed a song about the conflict with his parents, because he was going to do a montage of shots during the song. Prince had the song done by the next day. So, did he write that song specifically for that scene in the film, or did he take inspiration from one or more personal relationships?? Interestingly, in my opinion, that song seems to fit his relationship with Vanity more than Susan, because Susan was still in the camp - allbeit in a different way. Vanity had left prior to the song being recorded. * Bottom line is, I don't ever see Prince having been comfortable with publicly stating that he "really wanted to be with this girl, but she was with someone else". Singing about it yes - discussing it with the media - no way. You say Prince was a "quiet thunder" who could strike at any time. I disagree. He was a huge thunder clap in just about every song he wrote and sang with regard to the lyrics and message he was conveying. That was where he spoke the loudest. He could not communicate well otherwise - and he had admitted this as well. | |
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Regarding Prince's comments and Alan Light's book: my statements regarding his interview were not only focused on Prince's comments about the song TBO. He also made reference to Matt Fink's story of watching a Bob Seger concert with him, Prince wondering why Seger was so popular, and Matt discussing the importance of having a relatable and popular ballad song just prior to Prince starting to put together the song Purple Rain. Prince was also making reference to Susan Rogers and the threat of her planning to break in and steal music from the Vault.
@VioletCrush Prince's thoughts in the Ebony Interview; "There was one engineer who said that their sole purpose in life was to get the stuff out of the vault, and get it copied so it wasn’t lost to the world. I’m trying to figure out if that’s illegal. Should I fear for my safety that you might need some medical attention? You want to come up in my vault and you feel like that belongs to you and that’s your purpose? You better find something to do. That’s scary." Prince felt that Susan Rogers was trying to place herself as an authority over his music without his consent. If you're a fan that truly understands him... Understood his obsession and struggles to control every aspect in accordance to his music, you recognize his apprehension on the matter. He was angry and was obviously being sarcastic in his speech, implying, "Are you crazy or something?" I mean, how do you act when you're pissed off at someone? Do you control your temper and say nice things, or do you lose it a bit and hit below the belt, maybe to regret it later because you went too hard being truthful in your feelings? I know I do it all the time with many apologies following in the wake. Human. Regarding the song TBO: I have always maintained that the song had multiple inspirations, and obviously, Vanity was a big part of the song. She had just left the camp that July, and the film was de-railed at that point. She left in July - just before rehearsals and filming were to start. Management had to run around like maniacs trying to re-cast the part - this is all discussed by some of the team on the PR 25th DVD issue. I have no doubt that Prince was majorly affected by that situation, as he stated during the Ebony interview. The lyric, "the beautiful ones always smash the picture" is both literal and figurative based on what was really happening - Vanity left the film. However, the lyrics referring to a girl being so hard to find, making him so confused, and him begging her to choose him over another guy would not apply to Vanity at that time - and yes, I know that they "fit" into the scene in the film, but they could also easily have paralleled his life experience at that time. The Director for the film has stated that much of the script and songs were representing what was actually happening in his life. What I thought Susannah stated in the book was, "well, that was sort of our story, but he was also writing for the script..". I will have to look it up again. Susannah did not discuss the detail of her being involved with another guy when she met Prince in her interviews, but she may cover it if she does end up writing her story.
There wasn't a 25th Anniversary Purple Rain DVD, but there was a 20th, which Vanity's departure was very briefly mentioned without much substance... The lyrics you quoted, although I'm sure was also in connection to Vanity among other lyrics in the song as well, were not the lyrics Prince pointed out in the interview. It was literally... "The Beautiful ones, you always seem to lose" you can look up the correct lyrics here. https://www.facebook.com/...88385046/. Vanity didn't just leave the movie Purple Rain, but she also terminated her off and on romantic relationship with Prince, and as Prince initiated in the lyrics and other Prince associates expounded on, he was very hurt by her departure. It's pretty easy to perceive with her inspiration pointed out by Prince that many other lyrics were in connection to her as well. I absolutely agree that the script and songs had a connection to his life at the time. Denise was a huge part of those songs as well as the script... He told us her connection to The Beautiful Ones along with it's other inspiration. Regarding Susannah's comment in Allan Light's book. I quoted Susannah's EXACT quote from the book. (Page 95 Kindle Edition) Let me know if you'd like me to post a photo of the page or Provide it through an orgnote. The Ebony interview: I think the general consensus is that Prince was quite scattered with his words and thoughts when talking to that reporter. I don't think the group No Doubt were his "friends" as you stated. He asked them to do a song on the Rave album, and they spent some time at PP to record the song with him. They weren't continuing to hang out with him on a regular basis as friends. Same with Sheryl Crow and the other artists who did collaborations with him for that album. He was trying to do what Santana had done the prior year with bringing in younger artists who were having chart success at that time. Santana's record was a huge seller. I think the fact that Prince had the Ebony article pulled just minutes after it was published is very telling. I don't believe he had ever done that prior in his career.
Prince said No Doubt were friend's of his, but how far the friendship went isn't what is being challenged. It's the fact that they had a cordial relationship and there wasn't contention between them, yet he still wanted to speak his mind in comparison to the group. * Liz Jones's book: I have not read her book, so I don't know how or what Wendy, Lisa, and/or Susannah contributed to it. I do know that they had contributed some to Matt Thorne's book - or at least Susannah did, because he has a chapter discussing songs for her. I believe Thorne's book came out around the same time as Alan Light's book. Regardless of what they had stated in Liz Jone's book, Prince was definitely making reference to things written in Alan's book during the Ebony interview. Jones's book was almost 10 yrs old, so I doubt he would have been referencing details from her book.
Prince was making reference to many things he'd heard over the years and had kept "QUIET" about, not just from Allan's book. * I think Prince's words about Vanity at the Melbourne P&M show were very touching. He had just found out about her death prior to going on stage, and it was his way of eulogizing her. Again, there is no doubt that she inspired a big part of TBO. I just don't think she was the only personal inspiration for the lyrics. Take the song When Doves Cry - it is has been written everywhere that the song was inspired by Prince's relationship with Susan Moonsie. However, Albert Magnoli stated that he called Prince and told him he needed a song for the scene in the film where he's riding around on his motorcyle - he needed a song about the conflict with his parents, because he was going to do a montage of shots during the song. Prince had the song done by the next day. So, did he write that song specifically for that scene in the film, or did he take inspiration from one or more personal relationships?? Interestingly, in my opinion, that song seems to fit his relationship with Vanity more than Susan, because Susan was still in the camp - allbeit in a different way. Vanity had left prior to the song being recorded.
I think initiating that Denise knew the song was about her, was a lot more than "eulogizing..." Especially in the wake of him bringing to light her inspiration in regards to the song prior her death in the Ebony interview. * Bottom line is, I don't ever see Prince having been comfortable with publicly stating that he "really wanted to be with this girl, but she was with someone else". Singing about it yes - discussing it with the media - no way. You say Prince was a "quiet thunder" who could strike at any time. I disagree. He was a huge thunder clap in just about every song he wrote and sang with regard to the lyrics and message he was conveying. That was where he spoke the loudest. He could not communicate well otherwise - and he had admitted this as well.
My thoughts exactly... And it's in-tuned with his cryptic articulation in the Ebony Interview. Though, still his true feelings... There should be no debate then! At least where his fans are concerned. This we know...  [Edited 1/24/19 19:26pm] | |
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My thoughts exactly... And it's in-tuned with his cryptic articulation in the Ebony Interview. Though, not his feelings... There should be no debate then! At least where his fans are concerned. This we know... [Edited 1/24/19 18:58pm]
Regarding Susan Rogers - I don't believe that Susan Rogers ever specifically stated that her "sole purpose" in life was to get the stuff out of the vault and get it copied. I believe what she said was (and many other Engineers felt the same way) that she was concerned that all of the music was deteriorating, because nothing was being done to preserve it through the years, and this was true. * Luvgirl said: If you're a fan that truly understands him... Understood his obsession and struggles to control every aspect in accordance to his music, you recognize his apprehension on the matter. * Susan was the Engineer who actually began the process of cataloguing and storing his music for him in the mid 80's, and she was probably the most dedicated Engineer of all that he had. Prince's actions and words were at times conflicting, because for someone who fought so hard to have complete control over his music and own his master recordings it seems the condition and preservation of his music in the Vault was not a high priority for him. Susan was just expressing her concern over the potential loss of thousands of recordings - many of which had not ever been released - and rightfully so based on how the Vault was found. * Prince seemed to be on the defense in that discussion with regard to his past associates. * Again, with regard to Denise and TBO...I have said again and again that she was absolutely a huge part of the inspiration for the song, but some of the lyric would not apply - and yes I know the song lyrics - and here are those to which I am referring: * Baby, baby, baby * Do you want him?
Or do you want me? Cause I want you Said I want you Tell me, babe Do you want me? I gotta know, I gotta know Do you want me? Baby, baby, baby Listen to me I may not know where I'm going (babe) I said I may not know what I need One thing, one thing's for certain baby I know what I want, yeah And if it please you baby Please you, baby I'm begging down on my knees I want you Yes I do Baby, baby, baby, baby I want you Yes I do
* With the exception of the "paint a perfect picture, bring to life a vision in one's mind, the beautiful ones always smash the picture..." - which is clearly referencing the film and Denise leaving the film, and "the beautiful ones you always seem to lose" - the rest of the song is Prince screaming at the top of his lungs in frustration because he wants this girl whom he cannot have at that time, as she is with someone else. Now, is that ALL that intensity related to the Morris/Appollonia scene in the film, or does some of it have to do with what was happening in his life at that moment? * Yes, I have the special edition PR DVD (20yr or 25th yr issue, whatever) sitting in my cabinet, and watched it recently. Of course they were not going to go into detail about Vanity's departure during those short interviews, however, the detail has been covered in the Biographies. The fact is, they had only weeks to find a new female lead before shooting was to begin. I can only imagine the stress of that situation. William Blinn stated they must have interviewed 500 girls in different locations before they found Appollonia. She was found at the 11th hour. * Bottom line with the Ebony interview - Prince pulled it immediately from public view. This is the saddest part of the interview to me - when Prince says this: * "Recording like Al Green. I don’t need no words. I don’t need nothing. You know, Doug E. Fresh told me—we used to hang out when he was touring with us—he said, “Man, Prince, Rakim is so bad, Prince, he don’t have no friends. Just no friends.” I said, “Why?” “Nobody wanna be around him, they just feel small.” And that’s why I always know I’m doing alright: nobody comes around. Be quiet around here. I love it just like this."
[Edited 1/24/19 20:08pm] | |
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Yes,I was a bit saddened by the last part as well. He seemed to have a few close friends but it seems from that statement he still preferred solitude. | |
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I think he probably did need companionship, but with his emotional complexities, he couldn't sustain the long-term dayin/dayout type of relationship that most people want and need to have with someone. Very sad that his life ended similar to the way it was when he was young - with him being very much alone. | |
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Yes,it is very sad. He also spoke of his desire to be alone in the opening lyrics of 'Way Back Home' I feel that was one of his more honest and heartfelt songs. It's kind of difficult to listen to now. | |
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He was definitely reflecting on his life during that time. AOA shows that mindset. I guess to some extent he must have known that he would be alone. * I was listening to the Feb 24th P&M concert (first show) in Aukland, Australia, and when he sang Forever In My Life he added the lyric "I love you" into the song. Very touching. Again, many of his songs speak to him not wanting to be alone (Empty Room - "babe, why did you leave me all alone?", FIML - "I'd rather walk it with you than walk it alone", Goodbye - "if this means life without you baby, I swear I'll spend it on my knees"), but he didn't seem to be able to let his guard down in everyday life in order to have a lasting relationship. | |
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violetcrush said:
My thoughts exactly... And it's in-tuned with his cryptic articulation in the Ebony Interview. Though, not his feelings... There should be no debate then! At least where his fans are concerned. This we know... [Edited 1/24/19 18:58pm]
Regarding Susan Rogers - I don't believe that Susan Rogers ever specifically stated that her "sole purpose" in life was to get the stuff out of the vault and get it copied. I believe what she said was (and many other Engineers felt the same way) that she was concerned that all of the music was deteriorating, because nothing was being done to preserve it through the years, and this was true. * Luvgirl said: If you're a fan that truly understands him... Understood his obsession and struggles to control every aspect in accordance to his music, you recognize his apprehension on the matter. * Susan was the Engineer who actually began the process of cataloguing and storing his music for him in the mid 80's, and she was probably the most dedicated Engineer of all that he had. Prince's actions and words were at times conflicting, because for someone who fought so hard to have complete control over his music and own his master recordings it seems the condition and preservation of his music in the Vault was not a high priority for him. Susan was just expressing her concern over the potential loss of thousands of recordings - many of which had not ever been released - and rightfully so based on how the Vault was found. * Prince seemed to be on the defense in that discussion with regard to his past associates. * Again, with regard to Denise and TBO...I have said again and again that she was absolutely a huge part of the inspiration for the song, but some of the lyric would not apply - and yes I know the song lyrics - and here are those to which I am referring: * Baby, baby, baby * Do you want him?
Or do you want me? Cause I want you Said I want you Tell me, babe Do you want me? I gotta know, I gotta know Do you want me? Baby, baby, baby Listen to me I may not know where I'm going (babe) I said I may not know what I need One thing, one thing's for certain baby I know what I want, yeah And if it please you baby Please you, baby I'm begging down on my knees I want you Yes I do Baby, baby, baby, baby I want you Yes I do
* With the exception of the "paint a perfect picture, bring to life a vision in one's mind, the beautiful ones always smash the picture..." - which is clearly referencing the film and Denise leaving the film, and "the beautiful ones you always seem to lose" - the rest of the song is Prince screaming at the top of his lungs in frustration because he wants this girl whom he cannot have at that time, as she is with someone else. Now, is that ALL that intensity related to the Morris/Appollonia scene in the film, or does some of it have to do with what was happening in his life at that moment? * Yes, I have the special edition PR DVD (20yr or 25th yr issue, whatever) sitting in my cabinet, and watched it recently. Of course they were not going to go into detail about Vanity's departure during those short interviews, however, the detail has been covered in the Biographies. The fact is, they had only weeks to find a new female lead before shooting was to begin. I can only imagine the stress of that situation. William Blinn stated they must have interviewed 500 girls in different locations before they found Appollonia. She was found at the 11th hour. * Bottom line with the Ebony interview - Prince pulled it immediately from public view. This is the saddest part of the interview to me - when Prince says this: * "Recording like Al Green. I don’t need no words. I don’t need nothing. You know, Doug E. Fresh told me—we used to hang out when he was touring with us—he said, “Man, Prince, Rakim is so bad, Prince, he don’t have no friends. Just no friends.” I said, “Why?” “Nobody wanna be around him, they just feel small.” And that’s why I always know I’m doing alright: nobody comes around. Be quiet around here. I love it just like this."
[Edited 1/24/19 20:08pm] Regarding Susan Rogers; Yes, Susan Rogers was the one that initially catalogued his tapes, and she was very dedicated to Prince, and was worried about preserving his music for the future.... That was very nice, but Prince didn't want Susan Rogers worrying about, or initiating herself as preserver of his music without his authority. Right or wrong. He had a right to speak out against her comments if it disturbed him. It was his music... Regarding TBO Prince told us that those lyrics are associated with the scene in the movie of him seeing Morris and Apples together. I think it's quite telling that Susannah, who has never been confident in saying she was the inspiration behind TBO till this day, noted that Prince was also writing for scenes in the movie... just as Prince specified with that scene. So, not only did Susannah tell us this is what he was doing at the time for the movie... Lo and behold, Prince told us the specific lyrics he did it with... along with Vanity's connection. I believe him.. But if you choose not to believe him... Let's speculate away.. The dynamics surrounding Vanity's departure could easily coordinate with those lyrics too. After a 2-3 year relationship and cultivating her into a bonafide star, due to his cheating heart among other monetary conflicts, Vanity left the romantic relationship and his leadership to sign with Barry Gordy.... No doubt he was resentful of Gordy swooping in on her and stealing her away. The stories from back then with Adam Ant, Mikki Free and others of Prince losing his cool in jealousy, was very close to that time period and already prove, that Prince was very possessive where Vanity was concerned. He said he used to love her very deeply and many friends has stated that he was very hurt by her departure. The lyrics to the Beautiful Ones clearly reflects Prince "begging down on his knees" for a lover that he was losing, to stay. Just like the way he sang the song at her tribute after telling us she knew it was about her.. ("I'm begging down on my knees Denise, Denise...") So, it's no surprise he would write in the lyrics for her to choose to stay with him over Barry Gordy in a song that he himself noted was partially inspired by her.. Since he literally mentions her as an inspiration to the song... Very plausible that he did just that. I'm quite sure there are a few more lyrics in the song related to her. Prince simply told us one. The lyrics to The Beautiful Ones seems to me to be a sister song to Purple Rain. Which I wholeheartedly believe to be inspired by his relationship with Denise as well. But... Since Prince told us those specific lyrics in The Beautiful Ones were in coordination with the scene in the movie, speculation is moot. Right? I think it's sad as well that Prince died alone. I wish he was still here surrounded by people who genuinely adored him, but even from that comment you noted, he seemed to be speaking a true feeling that he made sure was an implementation in his life up until the end. [Edited 1/25/19 7:39am] | |
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Yes,I agree. I missed what he said at the show in Aukland,I'll listen for that when I play it again. During a performance of 'Thieves In The Temple' at one of the shows in Oakland,he sounded very upset when he sang the line "You led me on and everybody knows it" and then seemingly begged someone to save him from "this bitter end." With all that he was dealing with at the time,it would make sense that he would have been desiring the comfort that a loving relationship may have given him. | |
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Susan Rogers was not in any way stating that she was putting herself in the position to be the "preserver" of his music - although she would have been very qualified to do the job. She was simply discussing her concern over the condition of the tapes in that Vault - as many of his Engineers and associates were back then. It was confirmed by one of the Engineers in the 90's that there had been a pretty extensive flood in the Vault, and the mitigation to avoid permanent damage was minimal. Prince's comments were of a more spiteful and somewhat paranoid nature in that interview. * I think you are truly "romanticizing' the nature and events of Prince's relationship with Vanity. I'm not sure where you get a "2-3 yr" relationship, as she met him at the AMAs on January 25th 1982, and she left the camp in July of 1983 - so, not quite 2 years. They had a volatile relationship from the beginning, which has been well documented. As Prince himself stated, "She and I would fight. She was very headstrong ’cause she knew she was the finest woman in the world. She never missed an opportunity to tell you that.” Prince was still with Susan Moonsie when Vanity arrived in MN, and he also began the affair with Jill Jones, as well as, hooking up with many women on the road. Vanity would be with other men in order to compete with and also to ignite jealousy. Prince was no different - or possibly even worse because he was younger - in that relationship than any other he had going forward. Prince was so in love with her, and yet he creates a sexual persona for her (originally wanting to call her Vageena), requires her to perform in lingerie and sing songs about sex, and writes songs like "Wonderful Ass" about her. I would say that indicates a strong physical/sexual attraction much more so than a deep love. I have stated before that I have no doubt that Prince was fully attracted to her, and they had an intense physical relationship for awhile. * It's clear now (even though it's also been documented in prior Biographies) that Prince began heavily pursuing Susannah just after he met her at the WB Christmas party, which would have been Dec or early Jan of 1983. The fact that he chose to sleep on the couch in their tiny house rather than stay in his own hotel room during his visits to LA during that time makes it obvious that he was smitten with Susannah, and wanted to be around her. Based on Susannah's account of Vanity's remarks to her on the day she walked into the warehouse in July on Vanity's last day also indicates that Vanity knew of Prince's interest in her by that point ("oh, it's YOU again. You're going to have so much fun here..."). Barry Gordy did not "swoop in and steal Vanity" from Prince - that is just a ridiculous "fairytale" remark. Vanity knew exactly what she was doing, and no one could blame her for her decision. She wanted more money, and did not want to be moved down to the "lower rung" on the ladder with regard to a relationship with Prince. She wanted control of her career too. Vanity herself has spoken about this in numerous interviews. You had stated she walked away from Prince for good, however, there is a YT video of her interview in 1990 on the Regis & Kathy Lee show where she brings out a sculpture she had just finished for him, and she was discussing giving it to him. I'm sure she was another one who was in the "mix" with him past the time she officially left the camp. * Regarding TBO - Prince himself was a bit contradictory about the inspiration of the song in the interview. He first says, "If they look at it, it’s very obvious. “Do you want him or do you want me,” that was written for that scene in Purple Rain specifically. Where Morris [Day] would be sitting with [Apollonia], and there’d be this back and forth." Then later he says, "Any ballad like that, you know it’s not going to be about anything, uh, what’s the word? Carnal. It’s not gonna even be based in flesh. Regardless of what I’m singing about, it’s all spiritual. This is a channel. I’m trying to do “Somewhere over the Rainbow.” It’s not about somebody human that I’m looking at right now." Those two statements are contradictory, as well as, the fact that he's not looking at somebody human for his ballads, because based on the "spiritual" explanation, when asked who had inspired FIML his answer would not have been "Susannah". * The "do you want me, or do you want him" lyric and the frustration of that situation is relating to romantic relationships - not Vanity choosing Barry Gordy over Prince - come on!!! that idea is just absurd. That lyric is clearly referencing his frustration that this girl is in a relationship with someone else, but also wants to be with him, and he wants her to choose between them -"don't make me waste my time, don't make me lose my mind, baby". Susannah, (and the entire camp during that time), stated he had been pursuing her for a long time before she finally started the relationship with him (Winter of 1983). So it would have been 8 months between the time that they met and when he recorded the song. I would say that is ample time to build up an intense frustration about not being able to have a relationship with someone who you really want - especially for Prince, who was accustomed to getting most women he wanted by that point. * Look, if it is confirmed that Susannah was not in a relationship with another guy during the time that he was heavily pursuing her then I 100% agree that the only inspiration for those lyrics would have been only the scene in the film. * Luvgirl said: I think it's sad as well that Prince died alone. I wish he was still here surrounded by people who genuinely adored him, but even from that comment you noted, he seemed to be speaking a true feeling that he made sure was an implementation in his life up until the end.
* Wow - that's what you got from his comment - that he was speaking a true feeling?? I didn't get that at all. What I read was another defense mechanism and random analogy used for why he was so alone at that time. To me, you can easily read between the lines there. The reality was that he could not let his guard down and allow people to get close enough to have long lasting and "real" relationships with him. That is the saddest part to me. | |
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Yes, I heard that performance - very intense. He sang, "it's gonna be allright, allright..." and had the audience chant that line, and then he said "self preservation" a couple of times during the chanting. Very intense and sad * For FIML at the Auckland Show, he changed "I want to keep you for the rest of my life" to "I love you for the rest of my life". That whole set was just beautiful - the way he lined up the group of songs: Condition Of The Heart Noon Rendezvous TMBGITW FIML Rock-n-rollLlove Affair Breakdown The Question Of U - instrumental * Just gorgeous and sad at the same time | |
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Yes,the Oakland shows were very intense and emotional. I'm going to have to listen to the Aukland show again. I seem to recall that he played "Adore" as well and said something like "All you have to do is smile that smile and you've got me. Whatever you want you can have." or something similar. I thought he sounded so sweet there. | |
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Was the comment during Adore during the Oakland show or the Auckland show? He plays the song at the second Auckland show. I've only heard the first show w/ FIML. I'll have to listen to the second. Going to listen to the full Oakland show now too | |
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