Apologies if this has been debated to death.

Looking at a lot of recent clips of the Revolution & recently listening to the recorded output of W&L makes me realise again what a stellar band they were / are. This then leads to the obvious 'what if they stayed together'? question.

Wendy has previously mentioned that they could have been The Beatles...I have to say that I agree. Creatively Prince , Wendy & Lisa were giants together & I have no doubt we would have had a several sophistciated / funky & frankly amazing albums. How long would they have lasted though? Would the sound have dated very quickly post '87?

The flip side of course is that we wouldn't have had the batshit crazy, physcadelic train ride & uncomparable journey he took us on. Imagine - no LoveSexy tour, no NPG 94-96, no TRC, 3rd Eye Girl, 21 nights etc.

I am on the whole pleased with how things panned out - the journey was a blast & I think it probably fulfilled him far more creatively than if he had stayed with the Revolution. The Rev' would have given us consitent quality but...the way things turned out challenged him to search for new sounds / ideas etc...some great...some not so great!

I would have wished he finished out the 80s with the Revolution.

The disband I feel had more to do with deflecting the lack of success of Under the Cherry Moon.

.

1. not paying Vanity that extra $ for Purple Rain was a bad move, and we missed out on what the 2nd V6 album era would have been like, which would have been bigger.

.

2. Firing Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, as if they could just be replaced. Totally messed up the momentum of the Time and how successful the Ice Cream Castles album era would have been

.

1 + 2 lessened how much more successful the PR era could have been

.

3. Thinking Christopher & Tricky could carry Under the Cherry Moon by themselves was creative suicide. The movie should have include a different type of band inclusion. Not like Purple Rain, but different.

.

4. Creating the Family music/band then leaving them sitting, while shooting UTCM, bad move

The Family should have been in France doing shows, as well as being featured in UTCM.

.

5. The extent of quality creative output from 1985-1986 going into directions of Camille and the Dream Factory, not to mention When the Dawn of the Morning Comes(the Cocoa Boys, Mazarati led by Mickie Free), continues to haunt me because of the split. Everything shrunk. The Dream Factory / Camille era I think would have taken Prince to a different level that he would not have felt the need to feel he had to compete with musical trends like hip hop. A more music focused tour set with more musicians and less dancers, to help execute the sounds of the Dream Factory sessions on a larger level. Madhouse could have still happened, and Cat would have still come into the camp.

Prince realized he missed out on it, when he wrote In This Bed I Scream.

.

Time released sensitivity to music, I think at least 2 more album with the Revolution in the 80s closing it out with music that just would not have been able to be released in latter times. Like G-SPOT is HOT, but it was released at the wrong time and wrong era. Same with Mia Bocco. Tick Tick Bang was released too late.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would have wished he finished out the 80s with the Revolution.

The disband I feel had more to do with deflecting the lack of success of Under the Cherry Moon.

.

1. not paying Vanity that extra $ for Purple Rain was a bad move, and we missed out on what the 2nd V6 album era would have been like, which would have been bigger.

.

2. Firing Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, as if they could just be replaced. Totally messed up the momentum of the Time and how successful the Ice Cream Castles album era would have been

.

1 + 2 lessened how much more successful the PR era could have been

.

3. Thinking Christopher & Tricky could carry Under the Cherry Moon by themselves was creative suicide. The movie should have include a different type of band inclusion. Not like Purple Rain, but different.

.

4. Creating the Family music/band then leaving them sitting, while shooting UTCM, bad move

The Family should have been in France doing shows, as well as being featured in UTCM.

.

5. The extent of quality creative output from 1985-1986 going into directions of Camille and the Dream Factory, not to mention When the Dawn of the Morning Comes, continues to haunt me because of the split. Everything shrunk. The Dream Factory / Camille era I think would have taken Prince to a different level that he would not have felt the need to feel he had to compete with musical trends like hip hop. I more music focused tour set with more musicians and less dancers, to help execute the sounds of the Dream Factory sessions on a larger level.

Prince realized he missed out on it, when he wrote In This Bed I Scream.

.

Time released sensitivity to music, I think at least 2 more album with the Revolution in the 80s closing it out with music that just would not have been able to be released in latter times. Like G-SPOT is HOT, but it was released at the wrong time and wrong era. Same with Mia Bocco. Tick Tick Bang was released too late.

great point re seeing out the 80's.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Apologies if this has been debated to death.

Looking at a lot of recent clips of the Revolution & recently listening to the recorded output of W&L makes me realise again what a stellar band they were / are. This then leads to the obvious 'what if they stayed together'? question.

Wendy has previously mentioned that they could have been The Beatles...I have to say that I agree. Creatively Prince , Wendy & Lisa were giants together & I have no doubt we would have had a several sophistciated / funky & frankly amazing albums. How long would they have lasted though? Would the sound have dated very quickly post '87?

The flip side of course is that we wouldn't have had the batshit crazy, physcadelic train ride & uncomparable journey he took us on. Imagine - no LoveSexy tour, no NPG 94-96, no TRC, 3rd Eye Girl, 21 nights etc.

I am on the whole pleased with how things panned out - the journey was a blast & I think it probably fulfilled him far more creatively than if he had stayed with the Revolution. The Rev' would have given us consitent quality but...the way things turned out challenged him to search for new sounds / ideas etc...some great...some not so great!

I've said it many times and I know I'm in a minority but I think The Revolution have been subject to much idealization both in terms of their musical skills (they were no better than later bands) and their influence on Prince's music (which was much less than people were led to believe). Don't get me wrong, they are very talented artists, they certainly brought interesting things to P's music and I have nothing but respect and admiration for them, but this could be said about every other Prince band. They couldn't have been The Beatles because Prince was The Beatles, and would have been The Beatles no matter who he'd have played with at the time.

databank said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Apologies if this has been debated to death.

Looking at a lot of recent clips of the Revolution & recently listening to the recorded output of W&L makes me realise again what a stellar band they were / are. This then leads to the obvious 'what if they stayed together'? question.

Wendy has previously mentioned that they could have been The Beatles...I have to say that I agree. Creatively Prince , Wendy & Lisa were giants together & I have no doubt we would have had a several sophistciated / funky & frankly amazing albums. How long would they have lasted though? Would the sound have dated very quickly post '87?

The flip side of course is that we wouldn't have had the batshit crazy, physcadelic train ride & uncomparable journey he took us on. Imagine - no LoveSexy tour, no NPG 94-96, no TRC, 3rd Eye Girl, 21 nights etc.

I am on the whole pleased with how things panned out - the journey was a blast & I think it probably fulfilled him far more creatively than if he had stayed with the Revolution. The Rev' would have given us consitent quality but...the way things turned out challenged him to search for new sounds / ideas etc...some great...some not so great!

I've said it many times and I know I'm in a minority but I think The Revolution have been subject to much idealization both in terms of their musical skills (they were no better than later bands) and their influence on Prince's music (which was much less than people were led to believe). Don't get me wrong, they are very talented artists, they certainly brought interesting things to P's music and I have nothing but respect and admiration for them, but this could be said about every other Prince band. They couldn't have been The Beatles because Prince was The Beatles, and would have been The Beatles no matter who he'd have played with at the time.

so why was there never a time period like 1982-1986 ever again?

Why were there no proteges ever even close like 1981-1987?

the period of 1979-1986 was so interconnected, once the 'Revolution' was over SOTT was an era of dispersed energy from the prior years. And it trickled out through 89

*

***

*****

Prince has so many songs that were really raunchy — songs like “Darling Nikki,” that spawned a whole national movement spear-headed by Tipper Gore. What are your memories of that time or that song?

I loved it. Are you kidding? Back then?

Even though it was raunchy?

-Sheila E

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would have wished he finished out the 80s with the Revolution.

The disband I feel had more to do with deflecting the lack of success of Under the Cherry Moon.

.

1. not paying Vanity that extra $ for Purple Rain was a bad move, and we missed out on what the 2nd V6 album era would have been like, which would have been bigger.

.

2. Firing Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, as if they could just be replaced. Totally messed up the momentum of the Time and how successful the Ice Cream Castles album era would have been

.

1 + 2 lessened how much more successful the PR era could have been

.

3. Thinking Christopher & Tricky could carry Under the Cherry Moon by themselves was creative suicide. The movie should have include a different type of band inclusion. Not like Purple Rain, but different.

.

4. Creating the Family music/band then leaving them sitting, while shooting UTCM, bad move

The Family should have been in France doing shows, as well as being featured in UTCM.

.

5. The extent of quality creative output from 1985-1986 going into directions of Camille and the Dream Factory, not to mention When the Dawn of the Morning Comes (the Cocoa Boys, Mazarati led by Mickie Free) , continues to haunt me because of the split. Everything shrunk. The Dream Factory / Camille era I think would have taken Prince to a different level that he would not have felt the need to feel he had to compete with musical trends like hip hop. I more music focused tour set with more musicians and less dancers, to help execute the sounds of the Dream Factory sessions on a larger level. Madhouse could have still happened, and Cat would have still come into the camp.

Prince realized he missed out on it, when he wrote In This Bed I Scream.

.

Time released sensitivity to music, I think at least 2 more album with the Revolution in the 80s closing it out with music that just would not have been able to be released in latter times. Like G-SPOT is HOT, but it was released at the wrong time and wrong era. Same with Mia Bocco. Tick Tick Bang was released too late.

great point re seeing out the 80's.

PR era was to much of monster to try to follow that up, best to leave it. now i agree he could have

left that feel but continued with the REV band. For me i had been listening since self titled "Prince" days

so it seemed natural to move or shift creatively. 1999 was his explosion for me

i thought people would have already been through their personal freakout. PR felt like an awesome leftover dinner from the night before where the spices had a change to meet the broth. loved 78-88

tho!

I'd say neither

The sign of the times band was probably better than the Revolution and it allowed him to expand his live show quite a bit, but, and it's a big but, losing Wendy and Lisa and their creativity and left field thinking will always be a loss to me in his recorded music. I often wonder how much of Lovesexy and the recordings around that time had to do with them. They were a voice which could have pushed him to achieve much more on albums. I always heard the loss of them in his music after they left. How he never realised that his best recorded album was for the best part recorded live with the Revolution, Purple Rain.

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

so why was there never a time period like 1982-1986 ever again?

Why were there no proteges ever even close like 1981-1987?

the period of 1979-1986 was so interconnected, once the 'Revolution' was over SOTT was an era of dispersed energy from the prior years. And it trickled out through 89

*

***

*****

Prince has so many songs that were really raunchy — songs like “Darling Nikki,” that spawned a whole national movement spear-headed by Tipper Gore. What are your memories of that time or that song?

I loved it. Are you kidding? Back then?

Even though it was raunchy?

Yeah, I mean, I didn’t know any better. That was the ‘80s. We were having a blast, I’m young. It’s like I walked around: ‘Hey, I’m naked. Look at me.’ Playing, just doing, having a blast. I had so much fun. And I loved the show that he put together. We all loved those songs. That thing was brilliant, then. And some of the songs are still great — just change the lyrics a little bit. I do “Erotic City” in my show. But I change the lyric.

-Sheila E

The answers to your questions lie elsewhere. There was never a period like 82-86... because it was never 82-86 again. (Seems obvious, doesn't it?). Besides, this era is quite overrated, as is every first decade of every pop artist's career. There were never a similar atmosphere with bands and protégés because that was the last time Prince surrounded himself with people his age, people who'd known him before he was a superstar and people who could consider themselves peers or friends. Meeting Prince after 1985 would have been different for anyone.

I don't think it's overrated bro

Prince and that community was in line with the stars

Even your reply here tells me that 1982-1986/87 was on point.

I know you didn't experience this period and came 2 Prince in the 90s but come on...

You cannot deny the difference in the community affecting the music and the scene.

To say Controversy The Time 1999 What Time Is It? Vanity 6 Purple Rain Ice Cream Castles Glamorous Life ATWIAD The Family Parade Madhouse SOTT are overrated?

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said: The answers to your questions lie elsewhere. There was never a period like 82-86... because it was never 82-86 again. (Seems obvious, doesn't it?). Besides, this era is quite overrated, as is every first decade of every pop artist's career. There were never a similar atmosphere with bands and protégés because that was the last time Prince surrounded himself with people his age, people who'd known him before he was a superstar and people who could consider themselves peers or friends. Meeting Prince after 1985 would have been different for anyone.

I don't think it's overrated bro

Prince and that community was in line with the stars

Even your reply here tells me that 1982-1986/87 was on point.

I know you didn't experience this period and came 2 Prince in the 90s but come on...

You cannot deny the difference in the community affecting the music and the scene.

To say Controversy The Time 1999 What Time Is It? Vanity 6 Purple Rain Ice Cream Castles Glamorous Life ATWIAD The Family Parade Madhouse SOTT are overrated?

I don't mean they're overrated period. I mean they're overrated by comparison to what Prince did next and since. And then again with all the music I know now, those years are much less impressive to me than they were then, because there are many things I came to realize weren't as unheard of as I thought they were. Nevertheless, Prince was as talented and idiosyncratic as you get, I won't challenge that. And yeah, there was something very special going on back then, but for one thing I'd put an end to P's "golden age" after Lovesexy not when The Rev was disbanded, and I don't think it had much to do with the bands. And even then I still consider most of what came next stellar, just differently stellar. It was fucking great, just not as fucking innovative as it used to be, but who makes music history past their prime years?

U really cant compare the time period because HE was changing and going into other directions, and that did not involve the Revolution. Since seeing the Revolution NOW i appreciate them so much more because THEN i feel he overshadowed them all because he did everything the attention was all on him. Later on when things did not sell and he was not in the mainstream like that era, I could pay more attention to someone like Morris Hayes or Sonny or Michael Bland. I honestly never until now realized how fucking good Brownmark is, but I also will say to a comment I saw below about proteges, I think you totally are off on that one, both eras had good and not so good, Someone like Judith Hill who is not directly a protege she learned from him, her work is better than any protege he has had, sorry Shelia and others, but that is fact.

databank said:

It was fucking great, just not as fucking innovative as it used to be, but who makes music history past their prime years?

A counterexample to me would be "Bitches Brew", recorded when Miles was 43.

olb99 said:

databank said:

It was fucking great, just not as fucking innovative as it used to be, but who makes music history past their prime years?

A counterexample to me would be "Bitches Brew", recorded when Miles was 43.

Miles' electric period is the counterexample, but Miles managed to make music history twice, first with his hardbop period, then once more with his electric period.

I'm sure there are other counterexamples, but not many.

purplefam99 said:

databank said:

The answers to your questions lie elsewhere. There was never a period like 82-86... because it was never 82-86 again. (Seems obvious, doesn't it?). Besides, this era is quite overrated, as is every first decade of every pop artist's career. There were never a similar atmosphere with bands and protégés because that was the last time Prince surrounded himself with people his age, people who'd known him before he was a superstar and people who could consider themselves peers or friends. Meeting Prince after 1985 would have been different for anyone.

significant point ^^^

Very insightful

lastdecember said:

U really cant compare the time period because HE was changing and going into other directions, and that did not involve the Revolution. Since seeing the Revolution NOW i appreciate them so much more because THEN i feel he overshadowed them all because he did everything the attention was all on him. Later on when things did not sell and he was not in the mainstream like that era, I could pay more attention to someone like Morris Hayes or Sonny or Michael Bland. I honestly never until now realized how fucking good Brownmark is, but I also will say to a comment I saw below about proteges, I think you totally are off on that one, both eras had good and not so good, Someone like Judith Hill who is not directly a protege she learned from him, her work is better than any protege he has had, sorry Shelia and others, but that is fact.

Please always clarify who you are talking to so people can respond clearly. I don't know if the 'you' above is me or someone else

I'll explain my point of view though

.

First off all, it is a serious flaw when anytime Prince worked with someone, people call the person(usually they only recognize women) a protege.
.
In the 2000s Prince produced artists, but did not always deal with them as proteges. There is a big difference in what he did with the Time, Vanity 6, Sheila E, the Family & Madhouse vs Tamar, Andy Allo. Judith Hill was really doing her own thing, and Prince never reworked her image and tried to direct and define it. I never considered Judith Hill as a protege possible.

.

With Tamar he had her as a backup singer, she was doing her singing stuff before him and while working for him. The album never materialized.
.
Bria Valente, he renamed her, he did an album of music with her, but nothing else came of it. And I don't think it ever was.

.

Andy Allo is the closest to Prince emulating the protege effect of the 80s. He tried to remake her style image sound and personality. Andy tried, but it wasn't her.

In the 2000s Prince did not really have defined direction or vision. So how these attempts at proteges, the fit was never able to happen.

.

The 1981-1987 period Protege acts were totally in connection and in sync with Prince's vision of the time, the look, and sound. These protege acts can/could fit right into a playlist of Prince's current album at the same time. The 'latter' attemps never came close.

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it's overrated bro

Prince and that community was in line with the stars

Even your reply here tells me that 1982-1986/87 was on point.

I know you didn't experience this period and came 2 Prince in the 90s but come on...

You cannot deny the difference in the community affecting the music and the scene.

To say Controversy The Time 1999 What Time Is It? Vanity 6 Purple Rain Ice Cream Castles Glamorous Life ATWIAD The Family Parade Madhouse SOTT are overrated?

I don't mean they're overrated period. I mean they're overrated by comparison to what Prince did next and since. And then again with all the music I know now, those years are much less impressive to me than they were then, because there are many things I came to realize weren't as unheard of as I thought they were. Nevertheless, Prince was as talented and idiosyncratic as you get, I won't challenge that. And yeah, there was something very special going on back then, but for one thing I'd put an end to P's "golden age" after Lovesexy not when The Rev was disbanded, and I don't think it had much to do with the bands. And even then I still consider most of what came next stellar, just differently stellar. It was fucking great, just not as fucking innovative as it used to be, but who makes music history past their prime years?

I just don't see 1980-1987 as overrated. Underrated. Not overrated.

The music the style the eras later just never compared.

I always call the golden age overall 1978-1988

I love Prince as an artist, I just don't see 'stellar' all over the place after the 80s.

The vision was gone and changed and the next never took.

I still would have liked if he at least closed out the 80s with his Revolution/Sheila E crew.

A lot of people make great musical era's after their prime years. Those people tend to have come from the 1970s and 1980s though which says a lot.

OldFriends4Sale said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

so why was there never a time period like 1982-1986 ever again?

Why were there no proteges ever even close like 1981-1987?

the period of 1979-1986 was so interconnected, once the 'Revolution' was over SOTT was an era of dispersed energy from the prior years. And it trickled out through 89

*

***

*****

Prince has so many songs that were really raunchy — songs like “Darling Nikki,” that spawned a whole national movement spear-headed by Tipper Gore. What are your memories of that time or that song?

I loved it. Are you kidding? Back then?

Even though it was raunchy?

Yeah, I mean, I didn’t know any better. That was the ‘80s. We were having a blast, I’m young. It’s like I walked around: ‘Hey, I’m naked. Look at me.’ Playing, just doing, having a blast. I had so much fun. And I loved the show that he put together. We all loved those songs. That thing was brilliant, then. And some of the songs are still great — just change the lyrics a little bit. I do “Erotic City” in my show. But I change the lyric.

-Sheila E

The answers to your questions lie elsewhere. There was never a period like 82-86... because it was never 82-86 again. (Seems obvious, doesn't it?). Besides, this era is quite overrated, as is every first decade of every pop artist's career. There were never a similar atmosphere with bands and protégés because that was the last time Prince surrounded himself with people his age, people who'd known him before he was a superstar and people who could consider themselves peers or friends. Meeting Prince after 1985 would have been different for anyone.

I have an overwhelming feeling of fremdschämen, at the moment.

The only I can answer is to here more of what about come (The Revolution stuff that's in the vault). If it's more songs like Around The World In A Day, All My Dreams & In This Bed I Scream then no is my answer. Now what he should have done was keep W&L, Andre Cymone, Dez The Revolution) & The Time as producers & solo artist or groups inhouse. Then we could have gotten what we got & then some (lol)

BEAUGARDE said:

The only I can answer is to here more of what about come (The Revolution stuff that's in the vault). If it's more songs like Around The World In A Day, All My Dreams & In This Bed I Scream then no is my answer. Now what he should have done was keep W&L, Andre Cymone, Dez The Revolution) & The Time as producers & solo artist or groups inhouse. Then we could have gotten what we got & then some (lol)

In This Bed I Scream is a song dedicated to Wendy Lisa & Susannah from the 1997 Emancipation cd

And I LOVE the song ATWIAD written by David Coleman and Prince...which inspired the vibe of songs like We Can Fuck... be glad ATWIAD was written.

.

Prince said to Kurt Loder about what would we hear in the Vault

Prince talks about the Vault with Kurt Loder:

Some amazing jazz work

You'll find the best most heavy tracks that the Revolution recorded,

the ones that we thought were too far gone back in the 80s

...

you'll find the more psychodelic rock version of the Time

...

you'll find the really erotic Prince

the really erotic sensual Prince

you'll find the future

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I just don't see 1980-1987 as overrated. Underrated. Not overrated.

The music the style the eras later just never compared.

I always call the golden age overall 1978-1988

I love Prince as an artist, I just don't see 'stellar' all over the place after the 80s.

The vision was gone and changed and the next never took.

I still would have liked if he at least closed out the 80s with his Revolution/Sheila E crew.

A lot of people make great musical era's after their prime years. Those people tend to have come from the 1970s and 1980s though which says a lot.

There isn't a pop artist who met huge success and made music history in the first decade of their career who did it again. Non pop artists claim to meet more critical acclaim all throughout their career be aide their audience is more sophisticated, and pop artists may still meet a certain level of acclaim past their critically panned second decade, when they enter their neo-classical phase, but they don't make music history twice. The flaws you see in P's post 88 music, I do not see. I however acknowledge that his first decafe was stellar, very daring, very innovative and extraordinarily influential. There was no way in the world this could last past 88,Revolution or not. No way in the world. There is nothing Prince could have done to make music history again. The only real exception to that rule, as said above, would be Miles. A different, and quite uncommon type of counterexample would be Bjork, who didn't do anything that left a strong impact in the 80s (her 80s bands would be all but forgotten if not for what she did as a solo act afterwards), then became incredibly innovative and influential in the 90s. There are artists who kept being innovative past their first decade, particularly outside of the pop/rock/r&b realm: for example Bill Laswell did better things in the 90s than in the 80s, it was his true golden age, but it could be argued that his real significant contributions to music history were the 80s. Same with Sakamoto, who kept being very avant garde to this day, but his most influential work was the YMO era.

Madonna did. Actually her 1990 period was probably bigger than her 80s.

Some others did

Some just kept the same momentum...Sade, maybe MJ(of course not as big an album as Thriller) but MJ mania had a continued momentum. Tina Turner maybe?

.

We don't know what it could have done past 88. As in my earlier post I said I believe what was happening in the 1984-1986 period if it continued could have helped Prince travers the need to pander to musical changes in the 89-forward period. 1990-1999 was a troubling musical time in Prince music.

Genesia said: