databank said:

Genesia said:

I have an overwhelming feeling of fremdschämen, at the moment.

Yet, I believe many here see those years through the prism of passion and nostalgia, fail to see many of P's later works'qualities as a consequence, and also lack the musical context to realize that P's 80s music was made within the context of both a musical tradition and a contemporary context, and knowledge of both makes it look less impressive to me now than it did when I was 18 and knew so little. I love those records, badly, every note on them, but I try to see them with perspective not passion. I think you of all people should understand that, you seem to be among the smartest and best educated people on this board.

But didn't you say that is why you love the 90s Prince, because that is when you came around?

.

I think it is almost snooty to think people are just going off a feeling... that Dirty Mind Controversy 1999 Purple Rain ATWIAD Parade SOTT were not really that good, good but not as good as people remember...

.

I think I've expressed with perspective of the times and the vision, not nostalgia, on why

Prince (& the Revolution) the Time, Sheila E, the Family, Madhouse, Jill Jones stellar and never duplicated even Prince tried in the 2000s. I've always studied the times and era's and it is not even about feelings.

OldFriends4Sale said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Madonna did. Actually her 1990 period was probably bigger than her 80s.

Some others did

Some just kept the same momentum...Sade, maybe MJ(of course not as big an album as Thriller) but MJ mania had a continued momentum. Tina Turner maybe?

.

We don't know what it could have done past 88. As in my earlier post I said I believe what was happening in the 1984-1986 period if it continued could have helped Prince travers the need to pander to musical changes in the 89-forward period. 1990-1999 was a troubling musical time in Prince music.

If Madonna had any long lasting impact on music history it was more her first decade than anything that came after Erotica. She did great shit after that but she was mostly following trends for the most part (though Music was quite visionary for 2000,but did people notice that it was?). MJ is odd because of course he had his child career but if you start his real career with CBS, he didn't do anything significant after Dangerous. He was still the iconic superstar, but no on cared for his music anymore. Sade kept doing the same thing over and over, and with brilliance, but the Sade formula was totally established by 1992 and nothing new came out of it after that. Morcheeba followed the exact same path: define a formula, stick to it. Tina Turner doesn't count, she's a mere singer not even a songwriter isn't she? And anyway she never had any significant impact whatsoever, she was successful but not influential, let alone innovative. Her contributions to music are zero.

She had extended periods wher the era was huge -album-tour-video etc Erotica, Bedtime Stories - Evita movie was huge, followed up with Ray of Light which was HUGE into Music, then her Confessions period was another big period. But the fact is she continued to have extended periods of huge success.

Even when most entertainers were fighting a bloated entertainment/music industry

.

databank. I think you're adding more 'qualifications' to if someone had a resurgence of success.

I replied to your post that said: There isn't a pop artist who met huge success and made music history in the first decade of their career who did it again. Tina Turner from the 70s to the 80s was a huge successful period, even follow ups around the time of the What's Love Got To Do With It movie. No one said that this had to be about who wrote what, how influential etc if that is the case then how influential was Prince after 88? how innovative? But

.

The Prince formula was established in the 80s but her changed it new power generation and did the formula continue to work? or did the foundation of the 1980-1988 period keep the culture going even though not so brilliantly?

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

But didn't you say that is why you love the 90s Prince, because that is when you came around?

.

I think it is almost snooty to think people are just going off a feeling... that Dirty Mind Controversy 1999 Purple Rain ATWIAD Parade SOTT were not really that good, good but not as good as people remember...

.

I think I've expressed with perspective of the times and the vision, not nostalgia, on why

Prince (& the Revolution) the Time, Sheila E, the Family, Madhouse, Jill Jones stellar and never duplicated even Prince tried in the 2000s. I've always studied the times and era's and it is not even about feelings.

My affection for P's later work is great, but I'm not blind that I'd go claim his work then was more history significant, innovative or better than the 80s. It was often more sophisticated though. I just love it all equally. I think I'm just trying to think out of the box here: there's a consensus and I like to challenge the consensus. I don't see things the way most people do, I never did. It's very hard sometimes for me to debate with people because the way I see the world is usually quite different, or so I'm told.

Well I know, but a lot of people see the world differently too.
I for example never make playlists of Prince and non Prince music. Only Prince and protege(Prince written songs) I judge Prince music the same way he said he had his competition mirrored within his camp, not outside.

.
When I did those album era threads, that was my way of looking at the whole of the era to evenly look at it's success and ups and downs. So I'm not coming from a nostalgic point of view when I come back and say the 1980-1988 period was hands down spectacular.

databank said:

Genesia said:

I have an overwhelming feeling of fremdschämen, at the moment.

Yet, I believe many here see those years through the prism of passion and nostalgia, fail to see many of P's later works'qualities as a consequence, and also lack the musical context to realize that P's 80s music was made within the context of both a musical tradition and a contemporary context, and knowledge of both makes it look less impressive to me now than it did when I was 18 and knew so little. I love those records, badly, every note on them, but I try to see them with perspective not passion. I think you of all people should understand that, you seem to be among the smartest and best educated people on this board.

Honey, you're making it worse. Please stop.

OldFriends4Sale said:

BEAUGARDE said:

The only I can answer is to here more of what about come (The Revolution stuff that's in the vault). If it's more songs like Around The World In A Day, All My Dreams & In This Bed I Scream then no is my answer. Now what he should have done was keep W&L, Andre Cymone, Dez The Revolution) & The Time as producers & solo artist or groups inhouse. Then we could have gotten what we got & then some (lol)

In This Bed I Scream is a song dedicated to Wendy Lisa & Susannah from the 1997 Emancipation cd

And I LOVE the song ATWIAD written by David Coleman and Prince...which inspired the vibe of songs like We Can Fuck... be glad ATWIAD was written.

.

Prince said to Kurt Loder about what would we hear in the Vault

Prince talks about the Vault with Kurt Loder:

Some amazing jazz work

You'll find the best most heavy tracks that the Revolution recorded,

the ones that we thought were too far gone back in the 80s

...

you'll find the more psychodelic rock version of the Time

...

you'll find the really erotic Prince

the really erotic sensual Prince

you'll find the future

I know what CD In This Bed I Scream is from & Around The World... being based on something written by David Coleman. In This Bed... kinda reminded of the sound Prince had when the girls was in his group. I will listen to them if they happen to come up but I wouldn't go purchase a CD would a bunch of songs in that vain, that's all

BEAUGARDE said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

In This Bed I Scream is a song dedicated to Wendy Lisa & Susannah from the 1997 Emancipation cd

And I LOVE the song ATWIAD written by David Coleman and Prince...which inspired the vibe of songs like We Can Fuck... be glad ATWIAD was written.

.

Prince said to Kurt Loder about what would we hear in the Vault

Prince talks about the Vault with Kurt Loder:

Some amazing jazz work

You'll find the best most heavy tracks that the Revolution recorded,

the ones that we thought were too far gone back in the 80s

...

you'll find the more psychodelic rock version of the Time

...

you'll find the really erotic Prince

the really erotic sensual Prince

you'll find the future

I know what CD In This Bed I Scream is from & Around The World... being based on something written by David Coleman. In This Bed... kinda reminded of the sound Prince had when the girls was in his group. I will listen to them if they happen to come up but I wouldn't go purchase a CD would a bunch of songs in that vain, that's all

But it had nothing to do with them or the 1985-1986 period. And I never got the vibe of 1984-1986 it seriously sounds like the music he did in the npg 90s

So why would you use those two songs as examples? Why not Power Fantastic, In A Large Room With No Light, Mountains, the Stick, Raspberry Beret, Computer Blue, Sometimes It Snows In April... etc

.

If you listen to W&L first 2 cds it sounds nothing like that and feels like sketches and vibes of their time with Prince. Nothing like ITBIScream

Genesia said:

databank said:

Genesia said: Yet, I believe many here see those years through the prism of passion and nostalgia, fail to see many of P's later works'qualities as a consequence, and also lack the musical context to realize that P's 80s music was made within the context of both a musical tradition and a contemporary context, and knowledge of both makes it look less impressive to me now than it did when I was 18 and knew so little. I love those records, badly, every note on them, but I try to see them with perspective not passion. I think you of all people should understand that, you seem to be among the smartest and best educated people on this board.

Honey, you're making it worse. Please stop.

Genesia said:

databank said:

Genesia said: Yet, I believe many here see those years through the prism of passion and nostalgia, fail to see many of P's later works'qualities as a consequence, and also lack the musical context to realize that P's 80s music was made within the context of both a musical tradition and a contemporary context, and knowledge of both makes it look less impressive to me now than it did when I was 18 and knew so little. I love those records, badly, every note on them, but I try to see them with perspective not passion. I think you of all people should understand that, you seem to be among the smartest and best educated people on this board.

Honey, you're making it worse. Please stop.

I know you never liked me, but I still think you're cool

Pure genius.

Musze said:

This right here for sure ^^^^^^^^. Ever-changing, ever-evolving. I, for one, am really happy he moved on There's so much great music from him beyond those first few years....

Mumio said:

Musze said:

This right here for sure ^^^^^^^^. Ever-changing, ever-evolving. I, for one, am really happy he moved on There's so much great music from him beyond those first few years....

and so much that was not released from 1981-1986... that everyone is checking for lol

you know you are...

don't front...

TrevorAyer said:

Eye w1sh prince had returned to work with the revolution and other band line ups from time to time ... tom petty did solo albums plus heartbreakers even mudcrutch ... neil young recorded harvest moon with the harvest line up .. did solo records .. did crazy horse records ... i do feel the revolution sott period cannot be overated .. the music ranks among the best of all time .. later periods just don’t hold up ... in disbanding the revolution, including andre morris dez, i think he lost some important friends moreso even than the musical relationship... i feel this is why we lost the honesty and intimate trust he used to put into his music that comes from friendship and camaraderie [Edited 11/12/18 17:04pm]

agreed...seems like they got close to it a couple of times but egos as always got in the way.

TrevorAyer said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject.

databank said:

TrevorAyer said:

Eye w1sh prince had returned to work with the revolution and other band line ups from time to time ... tom petty did solo albums plus heartbreakers even mudcrutch ... neil young recorded harvest moon with the harvest line up .. did solo records .. did crazy horse records ... i do feel the revolution sott period cannot be overated .. the music ranks among the best of all time .. later periods just don’t hold up ... in disbanding the revolution, including andre morris dez, i think he lost some important friends moreso even than the musical relationship... i feel this is why we lost the honesty and intimate trust he used to put into his music that comes from friendship and camaraderie [Edited 11/12/18 17:04pm]

To be fair I think I had a poor choice of words. It probably cannot be overrated indeed. It's just that I don't see it as being as incredibly unique as I did when I first discovered it because I've heard so much other incredible music since. And also I've been irritated for years with how much his later works were UNDERrated, and they were because they suffered from the comparison not because of what they were. I like to challenge consensus and I think P's corpus of work should be apprehended and embraced as a whole because there's so much great music, the journey fascinated me from beginning to end, 1978 to 2016. But obviously if I didn't think his 80s works were awesome I wouldn't be here. I just wish people would try and think outside their comfort zone and challenge what's commonly accepted.

OldFriends4Sale said:

lastdecember said:

U really cant compare the time period because HE was changing and going into other directions, and that did not involve the Revolution. Since seeing the Revolution NOW i appreciate them so much more because THEN i feel he overshadowed them all because he did everything the attention was all on him. Later on when things did not sell and he was not in the mainstream like that era, I could pay more attention to someone like Morris Hayes or Sonny or Michael Bland. I honestly never until now realized how fucking good Brownmark is, but I also will say to a comment I saw below about proteges, I think you totally are off on that one, both eras had good and not so good, Someone like Judith Hill who is not directly a protege she learned from him, her work is better than any protege he has had, sorry Shelia and others, but that is fact.

Please always clarify who you are talking to so people can respond clearly. I don't know if the 'you' above is me or someone else

I'll explain my point of view though

.

First off all, it is a serious flaw when anytime Prince worked with someone, people call the person(usually they only recognize women) a protege.
.
In the 2000s Prince produced artists, but did not always deal with them as proteges. There is a big difference in what he did with the Time, Vanity 6, Sheila E, the Family & Madhouse vs Tamar, Andy Allo. Judith Hill was really doing her own thing, and Prince never reworked her image and tried to direct and define it. I never considered Judith Hill as a protege possible.

.

With Tamar he had her as a backup singer, she was doing her singing stuff before him and while working for him. The album never materialized.
.
Bria Valente, he renamed her, he did an album of music with her, but nothing else came of it. And I don't think it ever was.

.

Andy Allo is the closest to Prince emulating the protege effect of the 80s. He tried to remake her style image sound and personality. Andy tried, but it wasn't her.

In the 2000s Prince did not really have defined direction or vision. So how these attempts at proteges, the fit was never able to happen.

.

The 1981-1987 period Protege acts were totally in connection and in sync with Prince's vision of the time, the look, and sound. These protege acts can/could fit right into a playlist of Prince's current album at the same time. The 'latter' attemps never came close.

But fitting in with what he was doing at the time and being in that mold does not mean the artists were necessarily better. I understand what you are saying with someone like Judith Hill THOUGH i do feel he steered her in directions, she was not really doing what she did on her first two albums prior she was singing duets with Josh Groban and others so she was being marketed more as a VOICE pardon the pun. So though not a protege he is all over her first album and i dont doubt had more to do than we think, I feel just him working with her pushed her to where she is now on her second album which I would put over any artist he ever worked with, talent wise, vision, direction and artistry and musicianship. I think the reason none of the 90's artists ever materialized was because he lost interest and honestly the public lost interest in him, he could push anyone on us in the 81-87 era lets be serious now.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

lastdecember said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

and so much that was not released from 1981-1986... that everyone is checking for lol

you know you are...

don't front...

This is gonna surprise you but nope, not me. No fronting. Promise

Mumio said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

and so much that was not released from 1981-1986... that everyone is checking for lol

you know you are...

don't front...

This is gonna surprise you but nope, not me. No fronting. Promise

lol mmmm hmmmmm

but a whole lot of the others are the first to grab em lol

lastdecember said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Please always clarify who you are talking to so people can respond clearly. I don't know if the 'you' above is me or someone else

I'll explain my point of view though

.

First off all, it is a serious flaw when anytime Prince worked with someone, people call the person(usually they only recognize women) a protege.
.
In the 2000s Prince produced artists, but did not always deal with them as proteges. There is a big difference in what he did with the Time, Vanity 6, Sheila E, the Family & Madhouse vs Tamar, Andy Allo. Judith Hill was really doing her own thing, and Prince never reworked her image and tried to direct and define it. I never considered Judith Hill as a protege possible.

.

With Tamar he had her as a backup singer, she was doing her singing stuff before him and while working for him. The album never materialized.
.
Bria Valente, he renamed her, he did an album of music with her, but nothing else came of it. And I don't think it ever was.

.

Andy Allo is the closest to Prince emulating the protege effect of the 80s. He tried to remake her style image sound and personality. Andy tried, but it wasn't her.

In the 2000s Prince did not really have defined direction or vision. So how these attempts at proteges, the fit was never able to happen.

.

The 1981-1987 period Protege acts were totally in connection and in sync with Prince's vision of the time, the look, and sound. These protege acts can/could fit right into a playlist of Prince's current album at the same time. The 'latter' attemps never came close.

But fitting in with what he was doing at the time and being in that mold does not mean the artists were necessarily better. I understand what you are saying with someone like Judith Hill THOUGH i do feel he steered her in directions, she was not really doing what she did on her first two albums prior she was singing duets with Josh Groban and others so she was being marketed more as a VOICE pardon the pun. So though not a protege he is all over her first album and i dont doubt had more to do than we think, I feel just him working with her pushed her to where she is now on her second album which I would put over any artist he ever worked with, talent wise, vision, direction and artistry and musicianship. I think the reason none of the 90's artists ever materialized was because he lost interest and honestly the public lost interest in him, he could push anyone on us in the 81-87 era lets be serious now.

I didn't say they were better. But the purple community was better as a result of them all being there.

.

That is truth. BUT only because that time period was On Point.

OldFriends4Sale said:

BEAUGARDE said:

I know what CD In This Bed I Scream is from & Around The World... being based on something written by David Coleman. In This Bed... kinda reminded of the sound Prince had when the girls was in his group. I will listen to them if they happen to come up but I wouldn't go purchase a CD would a bunch of songs in that vain, that's all

But it had nothing to do with them or the 1985-1986 period. And I never got the vibe of 1984-1986 it seriously sounds like the music he did in the npg 90s

So why would you use those two songs as examples? Why not Power Fantastic, In A Large Room With No Light, Mountains, the Stick, Raspberry Beret, Computer Blue, Sometimes It Snows In April... etc

.

If you listen to W&L first 2 cds it sounds nothing like that and feels like sketches and vibes of their time with Prince. Nothing like ITBIScream

To me it sounded like something he could of done with The Revolution but with a different production. And I'm not saying I don't like The Revolution sound or W&L CDs, to me they wanted to go a different route. Again they never should have left PP, The Revolution could have continued there @ least in my mind.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would have wished he finished out the 80s with the Revolution.

The disband I feel had more to do with deflecting the lack of success of Under the Cherry Moon.

.

1. not paying Vanity that extra $ for Purple Rain was a bad move, and we missed out on what the 2nd V6 album era would have been like, which would have been bigger.

.

2. Firing Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, as if they could just be replaced. Totally messed up the momentum of the Time and how successful the Ice Cream Castles album era would have been

.

1 + 2 lessened how much more successful the PR era could have been

.

3. Thinking Christopher & Tricky could carry Under the Cherry Moon by themselves was creative suicide. The movie should have include a different type of band inclusion. Not like Purple Rain, but different.

.

4. Creating the Family music/band then leaving them sitting, while shooting UTCM, bad move

The Family should have been in France doing shows, as well as being featured in UTCM.

.

5. The extent of quality creative output from 1985-1986 going into directions of Camille and the Dream Factory, not to mention When the Dawn of the Morning Comes(the Cocoa Boys, Mazarati led by Mickie Free), continues to haunt me because of the split. Everything shrunk. The Dream Factory / Camille era I think would have taken Prince to a different level that he would not have felt the need to feel he had to compete with musical trends like hip hop. A more music focused tour set with more musicians and less dancers, to help execute the sounds of the Dream Factory sessions on a larger level. Madhouse could have still happened, and Cat would have still come into the camp.

Prince realized he missed out on it, when he wrote In This Bed I Scream.

.

Time released sensitivity to music, I think at least 2 more album with the Revolution in the 80s closing it out with music that just would not have been able to be released in latter times. Like G-SPOT is HOT, but it was released at the wrong time and wrong era. Same with Mia Bocco. Tick Tick Bang was released too late.

I ALWAYS say: Jill Jones' Album should have been released NO LATER than 1985!!!

woogiebear said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would have wished he finished out the 80s with the Revolution.

The disband I feel had more to do with deflecting the lack of success of Under the Cherry Moon.

.

1. not paying Vanity that extra $ for Purple Rain was a bad move, and we missed out on what the 2nd V6 album era would have been like, which would have been bigger.

.

2. Firing Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis, as if they could just be replaced. Totally messed up the momentum of the Time and how successful the Ice Cream Castles album era would have been

.

1 + 2 lessened how much more successful the PR era could have been

.

3. Thinking Christopher & Tricky could carry Under the Cherry Moon by themselves was creative suicide. The movie should have include a different type of band inclusion. Not like Purple Rain, but different.

.

4. Creating the Family music/band then leaving them sitting, while shooting UTCM, bad move

The Family should have been in France doing shows, as well as being featured in UTCM.

.

5. The extent of quality creative output from 1985-1986 going into directions of Camille and the Dream Factory, not to mention When the Dawn of the Morning Comes(the Cocoa Boys, Mazarati led by Mickie Free), continues to haunt me because of the split. Everything shrunk. The Dream Factory / Camille era I think would have taken Prince to a different level that he would not have felt the need to feel he had to compete with musical trends like hip hop. A more music focused tour set with more musicians and less dancers, to help execute the sounds of the Dream Factory sessions on a larger level. Madhouse could have still happened, and Cat would have still come into the camp.

Prince realized he missed out on it, when he wrote In This Bed I Scream.

.

Time released sensitivity to music, I think at least 2 more album with the Revolution in the 80s closing it out with music that just would not have been able to be released in latter times. Like G-SPOT is HOT, but it was released at the wrong time and wrong era. Same with Mia Bocco. Tick Tick Bang was released too late.

I ALWAYS say: Jill Jones' Album should have been released NO LATER than 1985!!!

Yes a trippy 1985 release prior to ATWIAD maybe

I really did Killin At the Soda Shop